From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V5 #214 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Friday, September 15 2000 Volume 05 : Number 214 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: precious-things-digest V5 #211 ["Shanna Seanachai" ] Awww... shucks :-) [Mysterilady2001@cs.com] Ignorance and Laziness on The List ["miss world" ] 2 quick things [Beth Winegarner ] Re: Fw: Oh Baby! [Mike Richman ] A Sexual Assault [Dracovixen@aol.com] Re: DVD again ["Mike Gray" ] Re: Ignorance and Laziness on The List [Richard Handal ] Re: Ignorance and Laziness on The List ["Amy Dvorak" ] thirty days hath september... [Abbe J Cohen ] (no subject) [Dracovixen@aol.com] RE: 2 quick things ["Endeneu" ] Re: Ignorance and Laziness on The List [woj sven-woj ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:39:16 -0400 From: "Shanna Seanachai" Subject: Re: precious-things-digest V5 #211 > > Umm...hmm...There are four weeks in a month....and 10 times 4 would be...? 4 weeks is merely an approximation fo a month. Take out a calendar. Not all the months have EXACTLY 4 weeks! Sometimes it is 4 and a half weeks. It all adds up. That is why doctors count pregnancies by weeks. Grianne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:27:44 +0200 From: Mark Harbott Subject: Re: let me be the first.... Pretty much impossible if she's breast-feeding......and pretty irresponsible too......you should wait at least 6 weeks before having sex after birth. > > Hey guys - I just heard this amazing rumour..... is it true that tori is > already pregnant?? Again!!?? > > > > ;o) > > > > Happy phantoms, > > Pete ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:27:24 EDT From: Mysterilady2001@cs.com Subject: Awww... shucks :-) Well, thank you Jen. That was very kind of you to say :-) I've wondered why first babies are carried a tad longer than subsequent babes. The only reasonable answer I can see is the first time out the body is new to pregnancy and when the hormones kick in it takes the body awhile to recognize & adjust maybe? Second, third time, etc., ..the body says "Hey, I know this drill! Lets Go!" Make sense to anyone else? Just a question. Soooo... anyone hear Tori had a baby? LOL! JK! Someone asked about a Tori DVD. I don't know of a single one made or being made. I, too, would LOVE a Tori DVD with ooodles of extra features. I love my DVD player. It's the only way to watch "The Matrix" - Totally Rocks! If anyone hears of one, please, please let PT know. Thanks! Toodles ~ MysT (who is still looking for a PGY BLACK BEE :-) In a message dated 9/12/00 10:49:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org writes: << MysT, What a wonderful, totally fascinating, and informative description on the gestational cycle of a baby. I've had a Human Development course before (in college), but had totally forgotten the 40-week thing (because we've all had the "9-month" thing drilled into our heads for forever). I also find it fascinating the way you described the usual cycle for a first-born versus a 2nd or 3rd baby. That info was NOT in our textbook. Thanks a lot for such a thoughtful post! - -jen >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:00:21 PDT From: "miss world" Subject: Ignorance and Laziness on The List hey guys, this means all of you who are bitching about newbies, and all the newbies bithcing about the oldies. I am an "oldie" pretty much, and i am pretty damn sick of these kinds of strings. we are all tori fans, we have that at least in common. we varie in other areas, and are tempered from one end of the stick to the other. we all need to learn to GET ALONG. how about suggesting to AJ that he can find these tidbits on "these urls" and helping him find his own way in the tori universe? it does NO GOOD to critisize a newbie for his ignorance or "laziness" how would he know that all of those sites are out there unless somebody told him? i know i've asked a lot of simple questions, sometimes its funner to ask a large gorup, because you could start a disscussion about the song, even. and aj, how about not bashing somebody's website (aka the ent) in plain veiw, when the comments really aren't constructive critisism at all, but a flame!? we are PEOPLE here, not corporate website owners who cantake a few blows from the masses. and in my opinion, the dent *is* rather useful for news, and provides DOZENS of links to other usefull, maybe more focused, websites for your choosing. i admit, as an "oldie" who has been on and off of this list for a few years now, that i have seen the same trent/tori, pregnacy, song interps, and other questions asked over and over and over and over, and magically, ASKED over and over and over and over. maybe those who are so tired of these questions should put together a FAQ, because you know what? Im (and many others are) sick of the flames. - -Courtney | sky puddles | | http://fadeddreams.net/garnet | | im the water, im the dishes, im the soap | |i will comfort make you clean help you cope| | -Sleater Kinney | _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:16:49 -0700 From: Beth Winegarner Subject: 2 quick things 1) women are biologically incapable of getting pregnant immediately after giving birth. In fact many don't ovulate for many months afterwards, and some don't ovulate until the baby is weaned. Therefore, it would seem unlikely that Tori is pregnant again. 2) the only month which is 4 weeks long is February. Beth - -- "As I gaze into the mirror of doubt, I see the barrenness of this life that remains. And yet in despair we begin to see true light: in weakness we can be strong. Let us draw substance from our shadow. Chaos above me, Chaos beneath me, Chaos around me and Chaos within me." (Carl McCoy) _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ Visit my web site at http://echoes.devin.com -- see photos and artwork, read poetry and stories, learn about selkies and Sonoma County, and join the froud-faeries list. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:54:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Richman Subject: Re: Fw: Oh Baby! > Not meaning to involve myself in this silliness, but isn't 40 weeks and 10 > months the same thing? (If all the months have 4 weeks.) 4 weeks == 28 days; 1 month (on avg) = 4.33 weeks 40/4.33 ~ 9.25 months (so 9 months + 1 week) Mike ps: Thought Natashya might be some Cherokee reference, but doesn't seem so. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:21:25 EDT From: Dracovixen@aol.com Subject: A Sexual Assault I was sexually assaulted today. It isn't the first time, and it probably won't be the last. Yes, the nothing more happened, and I am not physically harmed. However, being the receiver of a sexual assualt is emotionally and mentally harmful. You feel violated, angry, powerless, stripped of your pride, and overall, embarrassed. This is one feeling I have never understood. Why the fuck should I feel embarrassed when I did nothing wrong? I simply was alone in an elevator with an acquaintance. I did nothing to bewitch this loser into assaulting me. But, of course, according to some religions, I am a woman so I probably deserved it. In fact, according to less scrupulous religions, I am a woman and he was a man, therefore he had every right! This is bullshit. I am a person, I have feelings, I have likes and dislikes, I have thoughts, I am intelligent, I hold a vast amount of emotion, I have my own distinct personality, I am humane, and I believe in equal rights. I believe in basic human rights, and I believe that he had no right to touch me. I believe I have a right to not be treated as a sex object. When someone does this to you, you suddenly feel as if you are not even human. He did not treat me with respect. He didn't even see me as human being! Just as an item of pleasure, an item to control. An item. I do not even count in his book. I am a thing. He belittled me. He made me feel small and unimportant. Everything I had achieved as an independently thinking woman was tossed out in the trash. And this enrages me that he should cause me to feel this way. What made him think he could do that? I was showing him my tattoo, which is on the small of my back. Where does it say "yes, please do stick your hand down my skirt"? Yet, somehow, in every culture known to man, rape and sexual assault is not unheard of. In war times, it was common for warriors to pillage a town and rape the women. In Hebrew (Pre-Christian) times, women are subservient to men, and expected to procreate and bow to their man's wishes. The same thing today happens in India, Afghanistan (where educated women have been forced back from education and occupations to being a man's property by the new governing system), and many other places. In the 1400's, the Malleus Maleficarum was written by two Spanish Inquisitors on the evils of women, and it started the anti-witch craze. This was the witch-hunter's bible. And as we know, most of the population persecuted and killed as witches were female. Many were raped by their jailors, and their "holy" persecutors. Women for most of recorded time have gotten the shaft. Eve is the downfall of humanity, being tempted by a serpent (following in the footsteps of Adam's little-known first wife, rebellious Lilith). Leviathan, the dragon-serpent and "whore" of Babylon, is defeated by Yahweh. Apollo kills the Python that guards the earth goddess' oracle, and takes the oracle for himself. You will find in almost every great creation or myth, there is a serpent that is defeated or killed. Or a woman that represents all women, and of course, she's evil. By the way, I am alluding to the serpent because in "primitive fertility cults", the snake was the symbol of the Mother Goddess. In later religions, the killing of the serpent was symbolic of the destroying of the goddess figure, and therefore, creating a patriarchy, and creating inequality between men and women. Anyway, I think I may be getting off the target here. I am filing a report with the police tomorrow. I don't know his last name, but I can recognize him on sight. Rob would love to cut his fucking fingers off, or stab him in the ribs with his new knife. I would like to kill him. There are others I know that would love to kick him where it counts. As none of these are legal actions, I voted against them. I decided to not let the incident ruin my day. I went to my night class, and hung out with some friends afterwards. I would not sit and dwell upon his actions. However, to help me deal with the humiliation this brought me, I decided to write this letter. Perhaps, it would make people more aware, and other women more comfortable with talking about their harassment experiences. At the age of 2 years, a little girl is molested. A 12 year old girl is sexually harrassed by 20 of her male classmates. She identifies 12 of them to the school authorities, and they identify the other 8. A 13 year old girl is raped by a 17 year old "friend". A 17 year old girl is sexually assualted by a classmate. A 19 year old girl is sexually assaulted in an elevator at her college campus. These girls are all the same girl. This happened to one person. These are part of her memories for as long as her memory stays with her. And I am no longer ashamed of it. Why should this topic be so hush-hush, that a woman can't just come out and say it? If a man is shot by another man, and survives, he has bragging rights for the rest of his life! Now, think of all the women in your life. If all this can happen in 19 years (and there are women that have it worst than this me), what do you think has happened to other women? Every 1.2 seconds, a woman is raped. Every 1 out of 4 women will experience a sexual attack. Aren't these statistics a little scary? In Afghanistan women are unequal and treated horribly, due to sex. You know that if it was a racial thing, everyone would be on that country's back. Why is it different with women? Maybe some of you don't know about what has been going on with the Taliban in Afghanistan, but maybe you should take a look at it, if you ever wish to feel appalled and mortified at what goes on in our enlightened world. Hope you all enjoyed my discourse, and I hope you learned something. Sorry if some of it isn't very coherent, it is past 11, and I am still confused by the whole thing. To the dogeatdog list- anyone up for discussion? To the precious-things list- Perhaps many of you have had similar experiences...I know this is partyl the reason why i identify with Tori so much... To my friends- Thanks for being there. Sorry this was so long. - - V alias Black Dove ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:01:44 +0100 From: "Mike Gray" Subject: Re: DVD again > on dvd would seem like a logical thing to do but, as mike grey will hasten > to point out, tori's record companies have never been that logical. ;) Did I hear someone shout? ;) Yeah, basically, the problem is that Atlantic or East/West or whatever you care to call them have a problem with being startlingly inept when promoting Tori (in recent years) - for them to release a DVD when there's no other promotion going on (and indeed Tori won't be promoting anything for a while, I wouldn't think!) then it seems somewhat unlikely that they'll release anything in the near future. Having said that, Warner Music (of whom E/W and Atlantic are part) have been making a point of releasing old videos on DVD (and not bothering to re-master or improve them in any way, shape or form) of late (certainly in Region 2 - I don't know how R1 etc are panning out on this score?) including many of the old REM videos. And of course, REM don't have a new album out for a few months yet. I don't think we can't ignore it as a possibility, but I certainly wouldn't hold your breath waiting. A shame really, as recent concert releases (especially Sarah McLachlan's Mirrorball have been great exampes of what DVD is capable of, in terms of rich sound mixing, good picture quality, and indeed multiple angles during certain songs) - something which would be greatly enjoyable for a Tori show. The problem may also lie in Tori's rumoured perfectionism. Would she want a DVD of a complete show to go out if she wasn't 100% happy with her performance that night? Cheers, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:50:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: Ignorance and Laziness on The List Courtney posted: > maybe those who are so tired of these questions should put together a > FAQ, because you know what? > > Im (and many others are) sick of the flames. I basically liked the post, Courtney. Here is another perspective. I've felt for some time now that a Tori FAQ would either have to be too long for people to expect folks to actually read it, or too bare-bones to answer many of the "offending" questions. I mean, if there *was* an FAQ out there that answered the question "ive never been to a tori show. does the audience dance most of the time or what?" I can't think it would be a particularly useful and accessible document; and that's one of the questions asked a few weeks back. We're blessed to have The Dent and some impressive searching tools for the web. If someone needs basic info and they have decent web access they should have little trouble finding their answers. Otherwise, I'm sure no one here would mind someone posting and saying that they looked on The Dent and also checked the web with search engines and they still weren't able to find their answer, and *then* asking if someone would PLEASE be able to direct them to their answer--followed by THANK YOU. I've responded several times to such questions in the past with hundreds of lines of information that I went to the trouble to find especially so someone could get their answer, and because the way they asked their question piqued my interest as well. I wouldn't be on this list if I didn't want to be challenged and if I didn't like the give and take. But if we're to endure a recounting of Tori's entire biography and discography one question at a time on this list then I think many of us will freak out. My private mail says some of us already are. ;-) woj mentioned a slightly different format from the usual FAQ in private mail recently when we were discussing this. Maybe one day we'll have better ways for the new people to get their basic answers. (There I go again, hoping for something better.) [And hi, BTW. :-) ] Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:21:46 CDT From: "Amy Dvorak" Subject: Re: Ignorance and Laziness on The List Very well said. You said what I was thinking but didn't have the guts to say! Amy From: "miss world" Reply-To: "miss world" To: precious-things@smoe.org Subject: Ignorance and Laziness on The List Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:00:21 PDT hey guys, this means all of you who are bitching about newbies, and all the newbies bithcing about the oldies. I am an "oldie" pretty much, and i am pretty damn sick of these kinds of strings. we are all tori fans, we have that at least in common. we varie in other areas, and are tempered from one end of the stick to the other. we all need to learn to GET ALONG. how about suggesting to AJ that he can find these tidbits on "these urls" and helping him find his own way in the tori universe? it does NO GOOD to critisize a newbie for his ignorance or "laziness" how would he know that all of those sites are out there unless somebody told him? i know i've asked a lot of simple questions, sometimes its funner to ask a large gorup, because you could start a disscussion about the song, even. and aj, how about not bashing somebody's website (aka the ent) in plain veiw, when the comments really aren't constructive critisism at all, but a flame!? we are PEOPLE here, not corporate website owners who cantake a few blows from the masses. and in my opinion, the dent *is* rather useful for news, and provides DOZENS of links to other usefull, maybe more focused, websites for your choosing. i admit, as an "oldie" who has been on and off of this list for a few years now, that i have seen the same trent/tori, pregnacy, song interps, and other questions asked over and over and over and over, and magically, ASKED over and over and over and over. maybe those who are so tired of these questions should put together a FAQ, because you know what? Im (and many others are) sick of the flames. - -Courtney | sky puddles | | http://fadeddreams.net/garnet | | im the water, im the dishes, im the soap | |i will comfort make you clean help you cope| | -Sleater Kinney | _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:32:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Abbe J Cohen Subject: thirty days hath september... no, no, you're all wrong, it's approximately 280 days for a pregnancy, not 10 months or 40 weeks. ;) And I hadn't noticed any 4 and a half week months on my calendar - my months usually change over at the beginning or end of a day, not halfway through a day. ;) And strangely, I don't need a calendar to do the math that February is exactly 4 weeks (28 days), and the rest of the months are either 4 weeks and 2 days (=30 days) or 4 weeks and 3 days (=31 days). anyway, all difficult mathematics aside, I'm realizing that tori's likely normal pregnancy does make it seem that during the last few concerts she gave at the end of 1999, she might already have known she was pregnant, and during the fall before that, she might well have been trying - I wonder if the little tummy-rubbing thing she was doing back then wasn't such a coincidence after all? - --Abbe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:15:42 EDT From: Dracovixen@aol.com Subject: (no subject) I sent a very long post here on sexual assault and the treatment of women, and I know someone answered me, and I apologize because I accidentally deleted your e-mail. Will you please send it again? Also, I did not see the post here yet. Any reasons as to why? Black Dove ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:07:40 -0600 From: "Endeneu" Subject: RE: 2 quick things I hate doing this but it is a wives tales that you cant get pregnant. Some women begin ovulating as soon as the baby is born, and you dont necessarily have a period when you ovulate. My midwife has had women come in after childbirth at their six week visit and they were pregnant. Although the person who posted th equestion about Tori being pregnant agian later said it was a joke..... brandy - -----Original Message----- From: owner-precious-things@smoe.org [mailto:owner-precious-things@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Beth Winegarner Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 1:17 AM To: precious-things@smoe.org Subject: 2 quick things 1) women are biologically incapable of getting pregnant immediately after giving birth. In fact many don't ovulate for many months afterwards, and some don't ovulate until the baby is weaned. Therefore, it would seem unlikely that Tori is pregnant again. 2) the only month which is 4 weeks long is February. Beth - -- "As I gaze into the mirror of doubt, I see the barrenness of this life that remains. And yet in despair we begin to see true light: in weakness we can be strong. Let us draw substance from our shadow. Chaos above me, Chaos beneath me, Chaos around me and Chaos within me." (Carl McCoy) _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ Visit my web site at http://echoes.devin.com -- see photos and artwork, read poetry and stories, learn about selkies and Sonoma County, and join the froud-faeries list. :) ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:51:41 -0400 From: woj sven-woj Subject: Re: Ignorance and Laziness on The List toriadores, since we've had a little back-and-forth regarding the kinds of questions asked on the list, let me put on my listowner hat (assuming it still fits) and try to bring this issue to a close. i sympathize with those who would prefer that people do some research before firing off questions willy-nilly to the list. i think doing a little research can go a long way towards showing respect to the list and certainly leads to a more favorable response. *however*, i don't want precious-things' atmosphere to be one where people elect not to ask questions for whatever reason -- whether they fear the response they might get or they think their question is a stupid one or whatever. as much as we are here to discuss tori and her work, we are also here to help others to enjoy and learn about the same and not everyone -- whether "oldie" or "newbie" -- is privy to every little detail. so, far as i'm concerned as the non-moderating listowner, asking, for example, a brisk, contextless, ill-formed, and ill-informed question is better than asking no question at all. (that's my long-winded way of avoiding the old question cliche.) you are all more than welcome to react to any question in any way to you want. answer it, ignore it, even turn on the flamethrowers if you want. whatever. doesn't matter to me. i've reacted in all sorts of ways to posts to precious-things. i expect everyone else to as well. however, i'd ask that any *on-list* reactions are, at the very least, civil. please don't criticize someone for not looking up the answer instead of asking about it on-list -- there's all kinds of reasons why they may not have looked or may not have found the answer to what they were looking up. instead, if you choose to reply, answer the question as best you can. provide leads to where they can find more details if they are curious. explain how you found the answer (assuming you didn't just know it) so that others can learn the techniques of web searching and the resources available on the web for tracking down tori tidbits. share the knowledge and the sources. when mike and i created precious-things, we intended it to be a forum for tori-related discussion. the kinds of questions that started this meta-thread, however asked, certainly qualify. please don't lessen the value of this list for everyone because someone asks a question which rubs you the wrong way. thanks. woj p.s. i'm not the list's moderator so i don't know if this thread will be allowed to continue much longer. personally, i hope it doesn't, but it's up to mike. in the event that the thread dies, please cc any responses to me if you want to discuss further. ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V5 #214 *************************************