From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V2 #369 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Wednesday, December 24 1997 Volume 02 : Number 369 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: hey jupiter [TREW876 ] re: strange and stupid revelations [rain ] Re: Just for the record... [TREW876 ] Re: Rape [Deborah Nazarian ] Re: strange and stupid revelations [JiVa DiVa ] "Posers" ["Paul" ] Re: precious-things-digest V2 #367 ["Paul" ] Re: Kevin & Bean & sampling things ["Little Baby." ] Re: "Posers" [RAINN18 ] Re: Lilith [monolithicjuggernaut@juno.com (Mark W Biscomb)] Re: Lilith [RAINN18 ] Re: posers (long) [Richard Holmes ] Re: Lilith [geministar@webtv.net] Re: Quote of the Day [geministar@webtv.net] Re: strange and stupid revelations [JiVa DiVa ] Thoughts [Troy Cockrell ] Re: precious-things-digest V2 #363 [Dennis Snelders ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:42:48 EST From: TREW876 Subject: Re: hey jupiter well... after listening more closely to BfP, i realized that she Is saying hard cock in both... geez. a public flubup. oh well. thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:57:35 -0800 From: rain Subject: re: strange and stupid revelations well in "summertime" by..well i dont know who, they sing the line "take to the sky" (which, as most of you know, is a tori song) yet another stupid revelation. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~rain~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:47:51 EST From: TREW876 Subject: Re: Just for the record... i personally enjoy a saying from a friend of mine: "peace, love, and lollipops" :Þ @-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:14:09 -0800 From: Deborah Nazarian Subject: Re: Rape Hanna Paulus wrote: > > Debbie, I can see your side, how man are also sympathetic and sometimes > even more so, yeah many of us women are feminists for many different > reasons, but us, women as a group also have to realize that even men get > raped. I think you already realize this, many women get raped under > many conditions: date rape, rape after marriage...etc. And often women > victimize themselves, I realize that also a lot of times women can't do > anything to prevent it, but still often women victimize themselves. And > I believe that rape isn't always a sexual thing, they are many ways to > rape a man/women, it can be considered harassment or abuse, but in a way > it is also rape. Hannah, i'm not sure whether or not you realized that i posted to you personally, not to the list, and was intending to keep it that way b/c i know the discussion about rape was over on this list a while ago. so please respond back to me, not to the list when the letter is addressed to you and not to the entire list. anyways, i'm very curious to know how you see women "victimizing themselves." what exactly is your definition of this? also, i kind of got the impression that you think that rape can "sometimes" be a sexual thing in regards to your statement "rape isn't always a sexual thing." Hannah, rape is *not* about sex. i think one huge myth about rape is that it's a sexual crime. when in reality, rape is a *VIOLENT* assault that's acted out sexually. the prime motives involved for rape are the aspects of power and control, not sex. i'm very passionate about this issue b/c i'm a counselor and advocate on a rape and battery hotline, and thus, am often confronted with the numerous myths about rape and would like to be able to clear them up whenever possible. that's it i guess, debbie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:35:28 EST From: JiVa DiVa Subject: Re: strange and stupid revelations heehee, yeah, janis joplin and tori never thought i'd see the day. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:34:48 +0000 From: "Paul" Subject: "Posers" So far in this discussion, we've seen the establishment of three distinct types of people ; 1) Toriphiles, such as ourselves, who buy up every CD, bootleg and book and try and experience and know as much about Tori as we can, because we love her. 2) "Posers" - who hear Tori in the charts/on the telly, see she's being popular, perhaps buy 1 CD and tell everyone about how they're her biggest fan, whereas actually knowing nothing about her. 3) People who've never heard of her and therefore don't care either way. But what about those music fans who just.. dare I say it.. like the tunes?? Tori's early singles, especially, were very well produced and tuneful, and could be enjoyed on many levels (Me and a Gun excepted, of course). When I first got the chance to see Tori live last year, I went with four friends from university, none of whom were massively conversant with Tori's music or her big, big story but knew a few of her songs and enjoyed them on that level. And you know what? They all enjoyed the concert very much and went home much the same person as they went in as. I was a gibbering wreck.. but then that's another story. Now believe it or not but I have somewhere in the region of 350 CDs, and only a paltry 36 are Tori. I possess albums by Radiohead, Manic Street Preachers, Ani DiFranco, U2, Oasis, Fiona Apple... not their whole catalogue, but one or two by each artist, and I still enjoy them immensely. I'm not their biggest fan, and nor will I probably ever be. But the vibe I'm getting from a lot of comments I've been reading is that I should have no right to like them at all, unless I'm absolutely fanatical about them. What a sad attitude. If people want to be like us, and subscribe to the whole Tori Amos universe, that's great. If they just pick up on her and pretend to be a huge fan just for effect, that's bad. But if they just like some of her records... that's great too, surely. They probably make up a significant sector of the people who buy her records and go to the concerts anyway. A friend of mine, Zee, loves "China" because it reminds her of a time she was travelling on holiday in America and they used to play it all the time. For no other reason, apart from it's a damn fine tune. What's wrong with that? Having said all that.. Tori isn't hugely popular with the masses in the UK, she's still very much an alternative artist. The kind of people who I suspect would be 'posers' and jump on the bandwagon all tend to wear bright yellow shirts, go to nightclubs, drink watery lager and frug to European dance music all night. ;) Sheep. Peace Paul :) "Facts are engraved Hierograms for which the fewest have the key" Paul.Tweedy@durham.ac.uk http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d550du ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:34:48 +0000 From: "Paul" Subject: Re: precious-things-digest V2 #367 On 22 Dec 97 at 11:18, Tori Morph allegedly said: > tori's last name is pronounced with a short o.... A mus.... (like > famous amos) That's how I've heard her say it during a story on an > Australian bootleg from utp's tour... In England, people (including myself) tend to pronounce it as 'Ay-mohs', with an 'o' rather than a 'u' as above, as in 'moss', the green stuff that grows on country walls. This is all due to a phonological rule that is far too boring to repeat here. Vive la difference Paul :) "Facts are engraved Hierograms for which the fewest have the key" Paul.Tweedy@durham.ac.uk http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d550du ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:26:59 -0500 From: "Little Baby." Subject: Re: Kevin & Bean & sampling things go to http://www.wbr.com/soulcough/interviews/pitchfork96.html and you can read the whole story about the samples. If you just want to know the songs, its Mr. Bitterness and City of Motors. good luck! They really fuck with the samples though, so it might not be easy to spot. =) - - - - - - - - - - - ljwyatt@ids2.idsonline.com || ICQ #1200421 alias littlebaby on IRC || AOL IM "Jules0109" GUSTER Representative Now Playing: "Crucify" EP by tori amos. THE DAVE MATTHEWS BAND MEDIA ARCHIVE: http://www.geocities.com/~littlebaby--/ .......sleeping okay?....... - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:11:56 -0600 From: forsythia_in_the_spam@juno.com (DUST A BUNNY) Subject: WHOMP THERE IT IS ON MY PUTER HELLO YOUR STINKY EARS, Sorry, I have a feet phobia. Anywho, anyone want "Whomp There It Is" by Tori? I uploaded to send to people yesterday, so if anyone wants, just say so. Take care. Buh-bye. Me, the Flea "Once you're friends with sad, you don't need to be afraid of her anymore." - -Tori Amos R.I.P. Chris Farley HAPPY HOLIDAYS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:48:40 EST From: Cindergirl Subject: Lilith Has anybody else heard about the Lilith Fair trying to get Tori? I heard it on the news on mtv today. i don't know whether that would be good or bad. hmmm. btw...on the linking tori with other stuff...i'm sure everyone's already noticed, but just for fun i'll mention it again. Tori and NIN. "with their Nine inch nails..." from Precious Things "made my own Pretty hate machine" from Caught a Lite Sneeze also, Tori and Trent's little duet on Past the Mission I think tori and trent should hook up again ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:29:44 EST From: RAINN18 Subject: Re: "Posers" In a message dated 97-12-23 06:54:39 EST, you write: << Posers" - who hear Tori in the charts/on the telly, see she's being popular, perhaps buy 1 CD and tell everyone about how they're her biggest fan, whereas actually knowing nothing about her. >> I don't know when this Poser talk started or how, cause it seems I never got the orginal messages, but I don't see how anyone could be a poser of Tori's Music. She isn't on the TV much at all in my opinion. I could see someone being a poser for Fiona Apple or Jewel who we see everywhere now and is getting famous really fast, really quick. I would be lucky to listen to the radio and hear one Tori song. But I hear Jewel songs all day long.(I'm not bashing Jewel, i actually like her ) I don't think Tori is so "commercial". Maybe the Rainn Benefit really got attention, but tell me how often you see her on TV shows and at Music awards, or being overplayed(or even played) on the radio. I like that she is not "big" in terms of hollywood, but in terms of just her fans. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm sure Sarah Mclachlan has a lot of posers because of all the attention she got with Lilith and her new album. I know people that never knew of her until Lilth became so big, and now they are her biggest fans and love her sooo much. I liked Sarah since Fumbling toward Estacsy, but I can't say that I'm a big fan. Tori does it for me, some artists just really touch you, and there are some that you really like, but you don't click with them. Ya know? That's how I see it anyway, sorry it got long :) angie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:28:46 -0800 From: monolithicjuggernaut@juno.com (Mark W Biscomb) Subject: Re: Lilith This last post about how Tori and Trent should hook up again got me thinking about something that I saw on here quite a while ago but haven't seen mentioned in a long time. Has anyone heard any news about Crow 3 with the possibility of Trent as the Crow and Tori as a supporting actress? Peace, Love, and the Goddess-- Mark "When all young people would start listening to their own voice instead of saying what adults say or whatever MTV dictates, this would be a whole different planet." - -Tori Amos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:37:39 EST From: RAINN18 Subject: Re: Lilith In a message dated 97-12-23 12:38:44 EST, you write: << Has anybody else heard about the Lilith Fair trying to get Tori? I heard it on the news on mtv today. i don't know whether that would be good or bad. hmmm. >> See, I kinda hope Tori tours alone not with Lilith. I went to Lilith this summer with lawn tickets but didn't see any lawn. Every single grass blade was taken and I got there early!!! I couldn't enjoy the show and left after an hour. I didn't see Sarah Mclachlan which I would of liked and I only saw one one song of Jewel . they wouldnt let us stand around so you either had to walk back and forth or just go by the food stands. I like the intimacy of tori concerts. So I hope she tours solo. angie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:02:57 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Holmes Subject: Re: posers (long) On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, "AMH" (Aurora Marie) writes: > Well, I think there are definite signs of Tori fans vs. non-Tori > fans. I consider myself relatively inexperienced in the whole > Tori-realm of the world compared to the rest of the members of the > list. However, I will never accept everyone who buys a CD as a true > Tori fan. This kind of deals with a personal experience I had in > class. I have been wondering about the motivation to separate "true fans" from others, and have conflicting thoughts here. On the one hand, it is not a good mentality (IMHO) to go around dividing people into "in / out", "good / bad", categories for purposes of feeling superior, etc... But I don't think the motivation of finding "true fans" is really like this on this list. No, I think that we all have experiences of not being "normal / totally accepted into the mainstream / feeling like the world has gone crazy and looking for something else (e.g., Tori, goddess spirituality, creative outlets, etc.)". A lot of people are searching for connection to others; in particular, we seek a connection to others who share similar values. For many people Tori represents a somewhat-loosely-defined value system, which may (or may not, depending upon the person) contain some of the following: - honor of individuality - desire not to be an *asshole* (well, I don't think those guys in your class would call themselves "assholes" but they certainly wouldn't probably classify themselves as a "sensitive" guy, unless they thought it would get them somewhere... ) - Not female-hating ( Could have used the f word here - "feminist") - Anti-rape, sensitive to women's issues. - valuing the emotional / caring / expressive parts of oneself and others - your favorite here (better quit now) < snip > One female member of my class mentioned our > modern ideas of punishment for the crime of rape. The member of the > class who had been singing "Crucify" just blurts out, " Yeah Rape. > You can't even talk to a woman without being accused of rape, > anymore." One of the other people I didn't like instantly woke up > from his constant state of napping in order to agree. Now, Crucify > and "Me and My Gun" are on the same CD. How could anyone hear that > song and not think that rape is a sad, sad event? Different people connect differently to different expressions. In my opinion, he shouldn't *need* to listen to the song to know that rape is a horrible and atrocious violation of another's will, is physically, mentally, and spiritually harmful. Whether "Me and a Gun" makes someone realize this is (a) up to the individual's openness to confront the disturbing and uncomfortable issue of rape and (b) how a particular artist's expression keys into areas which would open up and affect that individual. What I'm saying is that some people need to be hit over the head with it. There are some poems which are slightly more graphic which might affect some people more, and then there are some poetry which is so intensely disturbing that I have a *lot* of difficulty reading it (sorry I don't have ref's for it right now, but I could search my journal entries if anyone's interested). interested). > That is one person > that I will never accept as a true Tori fan. (Or is it human being?) Ahh, but human beings are particular adept at committing needless atrocities and hurting others for reasons of their own weakness ("I was crushed in the vice of your sickness / took the blows for your every weakness" - Happy Rhodes). So there might be people who are incredibly thick who are *big* "fans" of Tori, but don't agree with her politically. There was a few on the Sinead O'Connor list who couldn't *stand* her politics but were quite avid about her expressions. And I enjoy listening to old Babes in Toyland or 7 Year Bitch without agreeing with every motivation expressed (e.g., female-to-female rivalry), but enjoying the intensity with which it is expressed. > Just trying to aviod all the evil of the world, Just one thought or two: If one takes "to help and to heal" as a guiding principle (including helping and healing oneself, else you might end up as another Mother Teresa, which although admirable is IMHO unbalanced), then evil can be thought of as a lack of living by that principle. It gets tricky when trying to extend to other life-forms (what is the best for a strep bacterium isn't what's best for other life-forms near and dear to most of us) - sort of like the Wiccan Rede. In any case, I think that we all kinda look for those like ourselves, and Tori is one of the points around which we rally -- kinda makes for a diverse group, since people's ways of interpreting music (poetry) are so different. That's one thing I really like about these lists is discovering what other people think about the worlds touched upon by the music of a particular artist. Hope your solstice was a happy one, and that your other seasonal celebrations, if any, are also fun and not too stressful. - -Richard. @ \@/ Richard A. Holmes (rholmes@cs.stanford.edu) @ | @ \|/ "O dark expansive sea of night, @ | Tapestry of stars and solitude, @ , , | , , Crashing waves of chaos, Deep void of becoming, @ ' ' ' ' ' Radiant blackness, all-enfolding, @ Constant well of creation, @ Bestow you dark gifts and silver sparks @ On your parched and thirsty child. @ @ Kiva / Kate Price \ Dar Williams / Renaissance \ Sheila Chandra / Laura Love @ Susan McKeown \ Sarah McLachlan / Libana \ Danielle Dax \ Dog Faced Hermans @ Loreena McKennitt / Kate Bush \ Tori Amos / Katell Keineg / Happy Rhodes @ Ingrid Karklins \ Sinead O'Connor / Jane Siberry / Pauline Oliveros ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:17:50 -0500 From: geministar@webtv.net Subject: Re: Lilith I think what angie said about hoping that Tori keeps true to her solo touring is totally the truth, and I think most of her "ears with feet" will agree. This is a woman who has been so concerned about the intamacy between audience and performer that she keeps in smaller venues and really tries to push the envelope to where you almost feel like she's talking right into your ear....and I think this is one aspect that makes her most devoted EWF respect and be dazzled by her live performances. Besides, after such intamacy in her own venues, wouldn't an outdoor, noisy, somewhat unrelaxing tour tend to distract Tori from her own music? It's such a personal wave between she and her EWF that it seems that playing in front of a crowd who is not only there for her but for others (the talks that have been initiated on "posers" come to mind) would pull away from the intense emotion and passion she's getting across in her music and performing. That's just my opinion, though. I'll follow her to wherever her touring road may lead, but I'll always cherish the days when it was just sweet Bosie and Tori together! "sometimes I breathe you in, and I know you know . . ." ~geministar* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:52:58 -0500 From: geministar@webtv.net Subject: Re: Quote of the Day Hello again! Mark - the last time I recieved a "Quote of the Day", the girl running it said that she was going home for the holidays and wouldn't be sending out any until about January 11th. Have you heard different? "sometimes I breathe you in, and I know you know . . ." ~geministar* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:55:46 EST From: JiVa DiVa Subject: Re: strange and stupid revelations here's another one concerning catherine wheel and tori... Way Down and Way Down ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:40:17 -0500 From: Troy Cockrell Subject: Thoughts Hi Everyone, Just wanted to drop a quick note and wish everyone on this list Happy Holidays!! And to get everybody motivated for the new Tori album hopefully in April/May. Even though I'm not sure that I will like Tori's new "band" sound I still want to see the album debut at #1 on the Billboard chart. The only way this will happen is if we each go out and purchase the album and get our friends/co-workers etc to get the new album. I remember when BfP came out it debuted at #2, which is kinda like kissing your sister, if only a few more albums were sold our beloved Tori would have been number one (at least for a week). So needless to say MY goal is to see the goddess at number one even if I don't care for the new sound. With Love Troy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:06:33 +0100 From: Dennis Snelders Subject: Re: precious-things-digest V2 #363 Hi! I had nothing to do so i decided to make and edit of the oh so long Synethasia Mix of Talula. The original version is 11=9227=92=92, and I made 2 edits: a long edit of 6=9245=92=92 and a really short one of 3=9223=92=92. (it=92s not a remix = - - just an edit so I made the song shorter...I also added some vocals from the Tornado Mix BTW) This really isn=92t anything serious really, but I thought I=92d share. If any of you is interested in hearing it, I=92m willing to send out real audio files of the really short edit. (the longer edit is a kind of large file - even though it=92s in RA) just e-mail me and I=92ll send you a copy. See ya Dennis - --=20 This message was sent by Dennis Snelders - ---------------------------------------- Tori Amos page 'Little Amsterdam' http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/lot/1017/littleamsterdam.html - ---------------------------------------- E-mail: dsnelders@geocities.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:22:05 -0500 (EST) From: Traumachik@aol.com Subject: Connections... I'm sure I could think of more, but here's the most obscure and well-known Tori connexions I could think of. OBSCURE: "Don't Respond, She Can Tell", the Loud Family "Maybe she knows the set of boys/and I'm not in the set of boys..." (compare to "Caught A Lite Sneeze") Actually, there are many similarities btwn this album and BfP, not the least the lead singer's resemblance to the stereotypical Tori-fan... MAINSTREAM: Both of Mariah Carey's singles from her new album: "Butterfly" and "Honey". The songs don't sound the same, but it;s an interesting progression... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:48:56 EST From: Lil3rthqks Subject: Re: "Posers" In a message dated 97-12-23 06:54:39 EST, Paul.Tweedy@durham.ac.uk writes: << But what about those music fans who just.. dare I say it.. like the tunes?? >> thank you! i don't fit into any of the categories mentioned, and i feel like a "poser" compared to some of you. i own all of Tori's albums and two of her singles, plus most of her other singles taped off of a friend's because i was too cheap to buy them. i feel sort of guilty, like a *real* Tori fan would pay money for her singles. i don't think it's fair to say that someone is a "poser" because they like a musican, but don't worship them. though i don't go out of my way for the bootlegs (though i would for the chance to see her live!), and i wouldn't say i'm obsessed with her, i definately don't like her just because it's "trendy" to. i've been a fan for 3 years (and will probably remain a fan for a long time) because i think she's an incredible musician, and a fascinating person. i enjoy discussing her and her music on this list, and she is probably my favorite artist because it seems like everything she does is just beautiful. well, that's my $.02. :-) have a happy holiday, and even if you don't celebrate, have a happy Thursday anyway! humbly yours, Kelley Rose "I think what I'd like best, Pooh, is I'd like you to hum it to me now-and-and then to hum it to all of us. Because then Everybody would hear it, but I could say 'Oh yes, Pooh's told me', and pretend not to be listening." --Piglet ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V2 #369 *************************************