From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V2 #334 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Tuesday, November 25 1997 Volume 02 : Number 334 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Rape ["Michael L. Whitehead" ] Me and a gun/Crying wolf ["Michael L. Whitehead" ] Re: Me and a Gun - Liberal definitions? ["lydi[uh]" ] Re: Me and a Gun - Liberal definitions? [Shirley ] RAINN & The Dent Offer A Tori Print ["Michael L. Whitehead" ] The rape thread [Nadyne Mielke ] Re: a lil' fiona question.... [bluegirl ] Re: Me and a Gun - Liberal definitions? [Ken Tough ] rape vs sexual assault [Jennifer Cypres ] Re: Song for Eric/My Lagan Love [A Wee Little Girl With a Can of Gasoline] [none] [Brian the Lion ] Re: me and a gun ["Ray Bailey" ] New York Times Article ON Stevie Nicks (tori mention) [kel11@scasd.k12.pa] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:26:30 -0500 From: "Michael L. Whitehead" Subject: Re: Rape Our good friend and fellow Ears With Feet Violet is extremely busy right now, but she gave me permission to post some of an email she sent to me in response to this rape thread. I really thought she had some interesting thoughts to share, and so here it is. Yours in Tori, Mikewhy - -----Violet's thoughts I want to point out to people that not only was she writing about her OWN experience in MaaG, but that the writing of it was triggered by seeing "Thelma and Louise," which many people either forget or don't know...and she's clearly meshed the two things together. She's combined the film's events with her own, most likely as a way to be able to share her story while still distancing herself from having to make every single private detail public. If people would simply listen to the song from the viewpoint of the film, they would clearly see where the "lies" came from. It infuriates me that people would call it "lying." ... It also bothers me that people don't seem to realise that there are many kinds of rape other than just somebody sticking a penis into someone else's orifices. There is emotional rape, rape of one's soul, many countries have been raped politically, ideas have been raped, rape of innocence, rape of trust -- so many things, if people would just stop to think about it! I don't know why the hell it matters so much to them, anyway. I don't know why they seem to think that somehow invalidates the entire song, because it doesn't at all. The truth is that she *was* violated, and that the violation was of a sexual nature, and how do we know that he didn't fondle or grope her? We don't. But if people see rape from the point of view that it's a forcible taking away of a part of one's sexuality, then Tori was raped. Because sex was taken away from her that night and stayed taken away for many years; the event destroyed her ability to love freely in her intimate relationships, and that is because of that night. People have to stop to ask themselves how THEY would have felt emotionally after a night like that. Violet xoxox - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. Whitehead mikewhy@iglou.com My Dent In The Tori Amos Net Universe => http://www.aye.net/~mikewhy/toriamos.html "Moses I know, I know you've seen fire, but you've never seen fire until you've seen Pele blow..." Tori Amos - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:19:32 -0500 From: "Michael L. Whitehead" Subject: Me and a gun/Crying wolf It is really strange the twists and turns this conversation on rape is taking. I am posting in response to a posting recently (sorry, I lost the name) from some one who talked about false rape reports and crying wolf and stuff like that. I really don't care for such topics, because the it is very obvious that the problem of rape far exceeds the problems of false accusations of rape. Easily. Tori herself talked about this issue in an interview with Geraldo that aired on one of his fifteen shows last February. Here is a segment of the interview: Geraldo: Doesn't it infuriate you that the issue, having evolved and now come out of the closet, is now being exploited and abused by psuedo-victims? Those who would posture themselves as having been vicitimized when indeed they were just using it as leverage either in a divorce action, a custody battle, or to get publicity? Like this Dallas Cowboys incident... Tori: Well, you realize that anybody that's there in their mind is not ok. Anybody who does that needs help on another level. Thats a different cry for help. You see, whenever you have to..Go there, to do something like that, there's not balance there. So there's a different problem there. (points to her head) So somebody has to go.. (sighs).. she needs some help. Geraldo: Doesnt it set back the whole, you know, movement in a sense? Tori: No. I dont believe that. I think, Geraldo, um.. things that... stones are being turned over everyday that are not in balance or in truth. And, for whatever reason, if youre...(sigh).. um, if youre in pain, it can come out in very strange ways. To me, thats a person thats in a lot of pain. Whatever they're doing... what Anger you have to do that... theres a lot of pain out there and i think its coming out in all sorts of ways right now. Yours in Tori, Mikewhy - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. Whitehead mikewhy@iglou.com My Dent In The Tori Amos Net Universe => http://www.aye.net/~mikewhy/toriamos.html "Moses I know, I know you've seen fire, but you've never seen fire until you've seen Pele blow..." Tori Amos - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:53:06 -1000 From: "lydi[uh]" Subject: Re: Me and a Gun - Liberal definitions? Shirley wrote: > Someone wrote: > > << it's positively disgusting to > hear from a good portion of all you that tori's rape wasn't a real > "rape".... ... It's attitudes of such that make it diffucult > for > many of our sisters to make rape a serious issue in the media, and the > > courts. >> > > **>I tend to disagree. It's the women who cry wolf, unfortunately, or > rather, > sexual harassment/assault, at the slightest provocation or no > provocation > that make the case of women who have really been sexually assaulted > more > difficult.<** > shirley, i don't post to the list often, but this bothers me that you > say this. i hear what you say about language use. But wether something > is rape or sexual assault is in the eye of the victim. I truly hate > the fact that you said [It's the women who cry wolf, unfortunately, or > rather, sexual harassment/assault, at the slightest provocation or no > provocation] > this infuriates me beyond belief, having been raped, and ignored for > these same reasons. why not hear yourself out and be careful with > language > lydia '`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*' don't treat me like i am`*'`*' something that happened to you`*'`*'`*'` http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/9386*'`* trickle down my spine at p a p e r s o u l s'`*'` [link above]*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'`*'` ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:25:01 -0800 From: Shirley Subject: Re: Me and a Gun - Liberal definitions? At 08:53 PM 11/24/97 -1000, lydi[uh] wrote: >>> shirley, i don't post to the list often, but this bothers me that you >> say this. i hear what you say about language use. But wether something >> is rape or sexual assault is in the eye of the victim. I truly hate >> the fact that you said [It's the women who cry wolf, unfortunately, or >> rather, sexual harassment/assault, at the slightest provocation or no >> provocation] > > I guess maybe I didn't make myself clear. What I meant was, there are people who cry "wolf," that make it a bad name for those who really have, like yourself. As a result, people w/ real legitimate issues aren't be taken seriously. There are other reasons why issues like sexual assault aren't taken seriously, and I'm aware of that. Like the kind of society these protests are issued in, etc. But, what I've mentioned is one of them, and I thought that it should be brought up. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:36:58 -0800 From: "Mickey Sun" Subject: Re: Me and a gun/Crying wolf Here's some links to rape and sexual assault resources on the Internet: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~bartley/sa/mythsfacts.html <-- the percentage of false rape reports is estimated to be less than 2%. http://www.ama-assn.org/public/releases/assault/facts.htm <-- Sexual assault continues to represent the most rapidly growing violent crime in America http://www.rainn.org/silent.html <-- The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. Rape is not about sex. It is about having unequivocal power over your victim. Tori went through hell on that night. Some woman is experiencing that hell right now. Do not ever forget that for a moment. Mickey Sun University of California, Santa Cruz | mailto:micksun@cats.ucsc.edu PGP print: E2F6 A7E7 EDFE 5A09 CE91 0D32 5ECC 74CD E14B A1F4 PGP public key located at: http://www2.ucsc.edu/~micksun/pgp.htm Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right. - -Isaac Asimov | N = R* x fs x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:06:53 -0500 From: "Michael L. Whitehead" Subject: RAINN & The Dent Offer A Tori Print My apologies if you receive this email twice. I sent it last night, but I did not get an individual email about it as a subscriber to Precious Things. So I sent it again just in case you did not get ot the first time. If you did please disregard! My web site, A Dent In The Tori Amos Net Universe, has joined with RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) to offer to you a special edition Tori Amos/RAINN lithograph. This black & white print was created by artist William Fuentes. It is imprinted with Tori's signature, is 20'' x 24'' and printed on high quality, acid-free paper. Besides receiving a beautiful Tori collectible, you will be supporting the invaluable work of RAINN, the organization that Tori founded in 1994. The prints are $19.95 plus shipping and handling. You can see the print and read more details at my web site. You can order the print using a credit card by phone using an 800 number, or through an online order form at my site. You can also order the print by snail mail if you want to pay by check or money order. People who know me or who are familiar with my web site know that I fully support RAINN. Debbie Andrews, who is the Executive Director, contacted me about this fund raising effort, and I agreed to help. They are really a great group of people, and you can be assured that all the money from your purchase will be used to fund RAINN's vital activities. I have included below a letter from Debbie that explains this offer in more detail. If you are interested in a nice Tori item and want to help RAINN, please go to the Dent and order this litho! You can even order more than one and have them sent to different addresses as a gift, complete with a personal note to the people receiving it as a gift. Everyone says that the holidays are too commercialized. This is a way to not only get a great gift, but really do something that really counts for the holidays. Thanks for listening. Yours in Tori, Mikewhy http://www.aye.net/~mikewhy/toriamos.html TO: Ears With Feet FROM: Debbie Andrews RE: A Special Notice from RAINN Three short years ago, Tori co-founded RAINN. I couldn't let this landmark anniversary go by without a heartfelt thanks to all of you who have been there for us over the years. You have helped make Tori's vision -- support for sexual assault survivors all day, every day - a reality. Most importantly is what we have accomplished with your support: RAINN has helped more than 170,000 survivors in those three years, and the hotline continues to be there for rape and incest survivors. To mark the three-year anniversary of RAINN's founding and this year's cK Calvin Klein Unlock the Silence campaign, RAINN is producing a limited run of a spectacular pencil sketch of Tori. Because of the part Tori's fans have played in the life of RAINN, we wanted you to be the first to know. I invite you to place an order and be among the first to have this special edition RAINN collectible. 100% of the proceeds from the sale of each print you purchase will support the RAINN hotline. Many thanks to William Fuentes for capturing the essence of Tori in this wonderful sketch which he has generously donated to RAINN. Thanks also to those of you who have supported RAINN in other ways and helped make it a success. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. Whitehead mikewhy@iglou.com My Dent In The Tori Amos Net Universe => http://www.aye.net/~mikewhy/toriamos.html "Moses I know, I know you've seen fire, but you've never seen fire until you've seen Pele blow..." Tori Amos - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:36:15 -0500 (EST) From: RAINN18@aol.com Subject: Re: Me and a Gun This discussion about Tori and rape has me a little confused. I have noticed alot of people saying she might not have been forced to have actual intercourse, but she was still raped. I always thought tori was actually forced to have sex from this man. I have seen interviews with her saying that he did have a gun to her head while he raped her and that she was lucky to live.Am I just seeing these things?? So, people are discussing if Tori can be difined as raped because she wasn't actually forced to have sexual intercourse???I know thats another issue about defining rape, which I am not addressing, I just want to know where some people got the information that she wasnt actually forced to have sex. Maybe I just misunderstood or something, but if someone who said these things could clear it up for me, I'd appreciate it. angie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:46:09 -0500 From: Jennifer Cypres Subject: Paula Cole Just curious... just wanted to take a survey... but does anyone out there get into Paula Cole like you get into Tori and Fiona? I mean, playing her obsessively and singing "Throwing Stones" at the top of your lungs in the car? It's wonderful! - -Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:43:21 -0500 (EST) From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: The rape thread This is part of a message that was posted in January this year by Sam Free {I dunno if he's on the list anymore}. - -*- In a Hot Press interview in 1994 Tori spoke about what happened that night. It is the only interview out of hundreds that I've read that she ever mentioned any details so I would guess that this is true. Anyway here's what she said... "I'll never talk about it at this level again but let me ask you. Why have I survived that kind of night when other women didn't. How am I alive to tell you this tale when he was ready to slice me up? In the song I say it was 'Me and a Gun' but it wasn't a gun, it was a knife he had. And the idea was to take me to his friends and cut me up, and he kept telling me that, for hours. And if he hadn't needed more drugs I would have been just one more news report, where you see the parents grieving for their daughter. "And I was singing hymns, as I say in the song, because he told me to. I sang to stay alive. Yet I survived that torture, which left me urinating all over myself and left me paralysed for years. That's what that night was about, mutilation more than violation through sex. "I really do feel as though I was psychologically mutilated that night and that now I'm trying to put the pieces back together again. Through love, not hatred. And through my music. My strength has been to open again, to life, and my victory is the fact that, despite it all, I kept alive my vulnerability" - -*- I didn't recall seeing it here {although my university is notorious for losing email ;) }, so figured I'dd just add it in. Someone here {sorry, I don't have the post in front of me} said something about blurring the line between sexual assault and rape. What -is- the difference? If rape were only about sex, I could see a point -> but it's not. Rape is about power, about force. It sounds to me like the line between sexual assault and rape is a legal one, and that just doesn't matter {at least, not to me. When you're attacked by someone, does it really matter -how- they assaulted you? Does it actually matter if he made you fuck him or if he made you give him oral sex? You've been violated. You've been humiliated by some bastard who decided that he needed to have power over someone, and you just happened to be the one who got off the bus that night. Someone else decided that what happens to -you- doesn't matter, they decided that they were going to force themselves on you somehow. Whether or not they actually fucked you doesn't give you back that night. It doesn't take away your fear of being alone after dark. It doesn't take away the pain, the fear, the violation. - -*- Now, all that said, I do believe that people who make unwarranted claims of sexual harassment make it harder for those who actually go through it. However, I don't think that it's legitimate to draw a parallel between those people and those who call "sexual assualt" "rape". To the victim, there just ain't a difference. Call it whatever you want, it just doesn't take the pain away. - -*- To inject a touch of levity into the conversation, I'd like to paraphrase Spider Robinson. Spider says that a good way to "get back" atthe attacker is to accuse him of exposing himself. Why? (1) What's he gonna say? "I didn't expose myself to her, I raped her"? (2) Unlike a case of rape, the victim's own behaviour / dress / sobriety / whatever doesn't come into play. {As Tori herself said, "I was a nightclub singer, I was wearing a slinky dress, I didn't have a chance in court" {also paraphrased}.} (3) Should the bastard go to jail, he'll be treated like the dog he is. In the penal food chain, he'll be bottom of the barrel. - -*- Okay, enough babbling for now. Like a lot of people, I have some very strong feelings on this subject, feelings that are nearly impossible to put aside. /nad *************************************************************************** * Nadyne Mielke, CS majour, Southern Tech, Marietta, GA * * * * "I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of * * oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate * * commerce. " -- J. Edgar Hoover * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:15:52 -0600 From: bluegirl Subject: Re: a lil' fiona question.... someone needs to chill out and quit being rude, i have the right to make a post just as much as you do! and i know that it had nothing to do with tori. i stated that. i have heard plenty of things on this list that have a lot less to do with tori so maybe you should think about that for a bit. get over it girl. and no, this isn't about the poster girl for rape comment. this is about apple being pretentious. *hugs* moonbeams and sprinklings of *^^**faerie dust**^^* ~marissa at-->mlverma@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu _____________________________ | hEllo EveRybOdy | | iT's ME. nOt anYone ElsE | | jUsT mE. HIII. | | *^*^^*^* | | ->delirium of the Endless<- | |_____________________________| +=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=++=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-= I go from day to day I know where the cupboards are I know where the car is parked I know he isn't you -T O R I A M O S- +=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=++=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-= I think my body is as restless as my mind -A N I D I F R A N C O- +=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=++=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-= when i am king you will be first against the wall with your opinions which are of no consequence at all huh what's that?? aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambition makes you look very ugly -R A D I O H E A D- +=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=++=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:07:33 +0000 From: Ken Tough Subject: Re: Me and a Gun - Liberal definitions? Shirley wrote: >On the other hand, I do disagree with the liberal use of language. There >is a line between sexual assault and sexual assault taken to the extremes >of rape. They are not the same thing, as close as they are. I'm sure that >someone who has been sexually assaulted can empathize with someone who has >been raped, because it is the same type of violation. But, I think it is >wrong to stretch definitions in such a way that it is becomes hard to >discern what the original intent was. Because, if you stretch it on one >thing, you can stretch it on another, and that can lead to gross >misperceptions. And does a person define whether a victim is raped with a bottle or with a penis? To me, "sexual assault" and "serious sexual assault" (ala "bodily harm" and "grevious bh") covers all the ground I can care to imagine. The exact mechanical details of what occurred might be of interest to old men wearing wigs, but I think it only serves as an efficient means to deflect the issue; a man attacking a woman in the most denigrating way he can. - -- Ken Tough Cornwall, UK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:30:28 -0500 From: Jennifer Cypres Subject: rape vs sexual assault Shirley wrote: >>>>A lot of posts have been made about whether Tori was or was not raped.... I do disagree with the liberal use of language. There is a line between sexual assault and sexual assault taken to the extremes of rape. They are not the same thing, as close as they are.... But, I think it is wrong to stretch definitions...>>>>> Okay. Here's a situation someone close to me experienced. Let's debate on whether this was rape or sexual assault. "Lisa" was a senior in high school. Virgin. Was going to wait until she got married. She didn't approve of taking chances and possibly getting pregnant, and she respected the sanctity of that "first time". She met a college freshman down at the college library while researching her final senior English paper. He was handsome, charming... looked a lot like Mel Gibson. He had these penetrating eyes. She hadn't dated much in high school. She was kind of a nerd, being the editor of her school paper, president of a couple of scholastic clubs. But she was no dog. Among the nerds of the school, she was also a cheerleader, with enough looks to turn a few heads. But she didn't like high school boys. But this one college guy-- just one year older than her-- really "did it" for her (the way Robert Plant "did it" for Tori, you might say). After staring across the library at him forever, he finally walked over to her and started talking to her. She was beside herself. He took quite a liking to her and asked her out. She was thrilled. Next Friday they were to have a date! Since he didn't have a car here at college, could she pick him up at his dorm? Sure! So she goes to his dorm Friday night at the agreed upon time. She calls his room from the lobby, but no answer. She waits around a bit. Five minutes later he walks in the front door with a couple of his friends. He had just been to a poetry reading and it lasted a little longer than he expected. He was sorry. He wanted to change clothes. Did she want to come back and see his dorm room and wait there? Sure. She had never been in that dorm before, and she was excited about going to college herself next year, so yes, she'd love to see his room! She was very trusting. She had no reason not to be. He was extremely nice. Very easy to get along with. She hadn't hit it off with anyone like this before. It was a "love at first sight" thing for her. So, they go back to his room. It's a suite. His roommates aren't there. She's not suspicious. Wouldn't that be overreacting anyway? Besides, she wasn't wary of these types of things. This was 1988. And she was only 17. Inexperienced. Yada, yada, yada. To be truthful, she'd only kissed one boy before seriously. (Another college guy.) So he took off his black turtleneck. Then he just kind of stood there without his shirt on for a minute. She was a little embarrassed. She didn't know where to look. So she started walking around the room looking at pictures, waiting for him to dress so they could go. But he never got dressed. Instead, he started lighting candles. So her palms are a little sweaty, but he is so good-looking! She cannot believe a guy who looks as good as this guy actually might want to kiss her. (And that's all she's expecting. Honestly.) He sits on the edge of one of the two beds in the room. He asks her to come sit next to him. With great hesitation and shyness, she does so. He looks at her romantically for a few minutes, gazing into her eyes. She melts. She wishes this guy would go ahead and kiss her and get it over with! So finally he does. And this lasts for a few minutes. But apparently he's not satisfied. He begins to tug at her clothes. She pulls away, saying no, softly. She doesn't want to offend him. He kisses her again. She's receptive. He starts to tug at her clothes again. She's a little firmer this time with her no. He says, "We're not going to do anything." With reluctance, she lets him feel her up. Then he begins to get carried away, tugging at her jeans. She stands up and says she thinks they should get going. He says he's sorry, but could they stay a bit longer? She's extremely uncomfortable, and tells him to quit his behavior. She tells him she really likes him, but she's never done this sort of thing before, and doesn't wish to start now. He says he understands and that he won't get carried away. For some ungodly reason, she sits back on the bed, and this time, he forces her jeans off, and when she struggles, he pins her down. She cannot believe what is happening. She pouts a little, murmuring "no" a few times. Finally when he begins to penetrate she screams "no" and he puts his hand over her mouth and continues. Tears stream down her face, wetting his hand. When he is done, he gets up, puts his pants and shirt on, and sits on the other bed. She is horribly embarrassed, and she is now sobbing. He gently soothes her from the other side of the room: "Are you okay, honey?" "It's alright." "Wow, I couldn't help myself." "I'm really sorry." "I didn't mean for that to happen." "Please stop crying." Very gently. Still very charming. As if he really cared. And she fell for it. He came over and wiped her tears, hugged her, offered to walk her to her car. She walked out with him, completely shocked. He hugged her at her car and promised to call her. Of course, he never did. She called every day for 2 weeks. He never answered. When his roommates answered, they denied his presence. She stalks his lobby. She can never find him. Finally, she gives up. She agrees to grow up and put it all behind her. Two years later, she sees him in another town, in a Burger King, of all places. She's at a booth when he walks in with 2 girls. Their eyes meet. She recognizes him instantly, even though he's grown a beard. Her friends who are sitting with her notice she's frozen. But she can't talk. The guy orders his food, looks at her, and leaves. And that was it. - -Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:28:55 -0500 (EST) From: A Wee Little Girl With a Can of Gasoline Subject: Re: Song for Eric/My Lagan Love > Shirley Ye wrote: > > So, what I'm wondering is this: did Tori compose the melody for Song for > > Eric, or is it taken from tradition? I remember Song For Eric being in her > > B-sides music book, but I'm not sure... On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Jennifer Jacobsen wrote: > she composed it herself for Y Kant Tori Read and Other Rarities Hmm, i never noticed a similarity between My Lagan Love and Song for Eric. I'll have to listen to them both when i get home. (Isn't that box set for Hounds of Love fantastic? I don't have to listen to scratchy vinyl bootlegs of b-sides anymore! And the Meteorological mix of The Big Sky is so great...) Anyway, the question. I think Tori wrote the melody herself, although i've never actually seen anything stating that she did or didn't. And now that you mention it, it does sounds like a traditional tune. It would be interesting to see if anyone has any interviews where she talks about it, or if anyone who has the SATY Ltd UK single could check to see if that says anything about it. Anyone? To Jennifer: Y Kant Tori Read and Other Rarities is a bootleg, which came out several years after Song for Eric was released on the very rare limited edition Silent All These Years single. The single is really hard to find, so some bootlegger put the bsides on the disc. YKTR and Other Rarities is not an official release, and Tori didn't write any songs specifically for it. In fact, i think she said YKTR would NEVER be rereleased. -=-laurie _________________________________________________________________________ Quoth the Raven, furthermore, a garbage can wakes up, and a pathetic cough syrup hesitantly pours freezing cold water on a rattlesnake living with a Dark Overlord. _________________________________________________________________________ My Whore code (v. 2.0) WhZz4 LSkGoG hR+(Br-)s+++ b64/63 B0E4# a20- sF7M252- K7+0bhlmOprX QZ v74s oTO X31 w5AT r4I- E- p0f*v7#g*s{87}C D3z7---!#a H!++p18usPa9 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:49:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Brian the Lion Subject: [none] I kind of opened this whole can of worms, with a query about 10 days ago so i thought i ought to add my 2 whatevers worth. I see rape as the worst of all crimes. Where it stands in relation to murder is a little hazy but i sometimes feel i'd rather be dead than live hating myself. I'm not saying that the victim should hate themselves but i know, and can relate a little to, the feeling that something so abominable must be ones own responsibility. My interest in RAINN and moreover Tori has lead to me taking what some more prudish people see as an unhealthy interest in rape et al but i see it as something that we cannot hide. To obscure is simply to fail to realise the reality of what it is. I have no "good" answers to this whol debate, whatever a good answer may be. Those with the clearest idea are probably those closest to rape (see a recent mail, or maybe that person is just a good empathiser), and if so i'm in no position to speak. But we should all speak about the unspoken. A history student, i know that the holocaust was allowed to be because those caught up in it (ie those who were involved in what was carried out) simply could not believe anything so terrible could occur. and if i've got a clue at all, the same goes for rape. I'm not asking for glorification or personal ids. but we ignore it out peril. "..and maybe there's pieces of me you've never seen" Brian the Lion - ---------------------- Brian the Lion bos197@soton.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:53:15 PST From: "Ray Bailey" Subject: Re: me and a gun ><< it's positively disgusting to > hear from a good portion of all you that tori's rape wasn't a real > "rape". That remark reminds me, in a painful way, who is calling the > shots in the U.S., and arguably, the world: men. It's attitudes of > such that make it diffucult for many of our sisters to make rape > a serious issue in the media, and the courts. >> > >even though i'm a man, i'm afraid i have to agree with you. the country does >in general have a poor attitude concerning rape issues. a lot of men just >can't relate to how it feels to be a victim of a sex crime, or any kind of >terrible assault for that matter. people tend not to take a victim seriously >unless she practically stumbles into the police station bleeding, beaten, and >halfway dead- as if the emotional pain that a woman will have to live with >forever is insignificant. >i think attitudes are changing though, very, very slowly, but they are >changing. that's evident in the amount of new laws being written to punish >perpetrators of sex crimes, and the amount of programs like RAINN that help >victims deal with their assults. >don't worry, we're getting there. sooner rather than later i hope. >Bryan Sniffen Umm, 'scuse much, but last time *I* checked I was a male myself, and I don't feel that way at all. I absolutely can't stand generalizations that don't recognize that YES there ARE those out there who DON'T fit the pattern that you are describing. I hate being lumped into a large group of people like I'm some kind of a mindless zombie or something... I mean, please... I know that's close to the general attitude, but at least give credit to those of us who don't think, feel or act that way. So maybe MOST guys feel that way... but PLEASE, at least mention that there are those who DON'T. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:26:29 -0500 From: kel11@scasd.k12.pa.us (Kim) Subject: New York Times Article ON Stevie Nicks (tori mention) I'm on a Stevie Nicks mailing list, there's a tori reference here, enjoy... I ought to write up the similarites the two have, it's pretty cool.. - --Kim > >Stevie Nicks: Going Her Own Way, But Slowly This Time > >By FRANK BRUNI > >TLANTA -- The miniature cheesecake sat in front of Stevie >Nicks like a cruel temptation, crowned with a glaze of mandarin >oranges and skirted with puddles of chocolate sauce. She took a bite, >just to test it. Then she put down her fork, deciding the pleasure was >not >worth the penance. > >"I'll eat a dessert if it's really good," Ms. Nicks said as the light >from >several candles in her suite at the Ritz-Carlton here flickered across >her >face, still made up from the concert that had ended two hours before, at >11 p.m. "But I won't waste a carbohydrate unless it's killer." > >This is the vow of a woman who was 30 pounds heavier just last year. It >is also a clue that Ms. Nicks knows something about indulgence, and >about paying the price for it. > >Touring incessantly in the 1970s and '80s as a lead singer in the rock >supergroup Fleetwood Mac, then as a solo act, she snorted enough >cocaine, she says, to burn a permanent hole in her nose. She took >inadequate care of her raspy voice, which on some nights lost its >muscle, >embarrassing her onstage. > >And she occasionally seemed to be twirling toward oblivion, a casualty >not merely of excess but also of a persona that was wearing thin, of so >much chiffon and so many balletic dance spins that she verged on >self-parody. Some comedians mocked her. Many critics savaged her. > >But time, tastes and entertainment careers work in ways as mysterious as >the lyrics to some of Ms. Nicks' songs, and suddenly, at the age of 49, >she is enjoying a rock-and-roll renaissance. > >Fleetwood Mac's reunion tour, which goes to Madison Square Garden >on Thanksgiving night, has sold out dozens of large venues across the >country over the last two months. The group's current album, "The >Dance," which was made from live performances in May featuring old >hits and a few new songs, has been a fixture at or near the top of the >Billboard charts since August. > >And the first single released from it, "Silver Springs," was ineluctable >on >MTV, VHI and many FM radio stations until a few weeks ago. Ms. >Nicks wrote this haunting romantic dirge, which also features some of >the >most stirring singing she has ever done. One newspaper critic raved that >it "inspired shivers." > >But Ms. Nicks is encountering more than just renewed favor. Nearly a >quarter-century since she joined Fleetwood Mac and 20 years since its >seminal collection of songs, "Rumours," became one of the >highest-selling >albums of all time, Ms. Nicks is finding a new level of recognition as >one >of the more influential women in modern rock. > >Isaac Mizrahi and Anna Sui, the fashion designers, recognized her witchy >wardrobes of black gossamer and velvet, gargantuan boots and glittering >beads as inspirations behind collections they put together over the last >year. Her name also pops up regularly in reviews of some younger artists >like Tori Amos and Jewel, who share either her penchant for opaque >lyrics or idiosyncratic vocal shadings. > >And a new generation of rock musicians, from Courtney Love to Billy >Corgan, the lead singer of the Smashing Pumpkins, are doing cover >versions of Ms. Nicks' songs and publicly acknowledging a debt to her. > >"She had a huge effect on everybody, whether they admit it or not," said >Ms. Love, who paid tribute to Ms. Nicks in an interview she conducted >with her in the October issue of Spin magazine. > >Ms. Love said Ms. Nicks' unwavering adherence to a highly personal, >deeply feminine songwriting and performing style at a time when men >almost completely ruled rock was "pretty subversive." > >"Any girl who takes the stage with total individuality is influenced by >Stevie," Ms. Love said. "She was a huge influence on me." > >Ms. Nicks says she is well aware of such sentiments and is tremendously >moved by them. In fact, she says, she appreciates everything about her >long career more than ever before, and she tends it with newfound >attention and diligence. > >If her singing on the new album and tour is stronger than in the past, >it is >because she quit smoking on Jan. 1 and does 40 minutes of vocal >calisthenics several hours before every concert. > >"I've never done that in my whole life, ever," Ms. Nicks said in a >speaking voice much like her singing voice: at once coarse and tender, >bitter and sweet. "I've never taken voice lessons. I did not know that >you >could be totally hoarse and have almost complete laryngitis and work >with a really good vocal coach for an hour in the afternoon, so your >voice >has time to settle, and you can sing like a bird." > >Ms. Nicks says she is also sober, having quit cocaine around 1986. And >two years ago, she had eye surgery to correct vision problems that she >says were responsible for occasional stumbles onstage. > >"I'm old enough and mature enough and -- if you want to be mystical >about it -- ancient enough in my wisdom to take a little better care of >everything: my emotions, my body," she said. "Because I care now. I'm >not going to miss out on anything in the next 20 years like I missed out >on >things in the last 20." > >Ms. Nicks' down-to-earth honesty and warm, slightly sassy laugh during >the course of an early-morning snack, which consisted of a cup of coffee >and the warily eyed, barely grazed cheesecake, were surprising, given >her reputation for ethereal poses and metaphysical musings. > >But in other ways, she conformed perfectly to expectations. Indeed, one >of the most interesting aspects of Ms. Nicks' current popularity is that >she has achieved it not by reinventing herself but by reinvigorating the >time-tested model, dusting it off for another dizzy whirl through the >limelight. > >Sitting at a table in the dining area of her suite, she wore a black >chiffon >skirt and a black velvet jacket, holdovers not only from the >just-finished >concert but also from the distant past. > >The suite itself had been given subtle aspects of a high priestess' >lair, with >candles placed here and there, a scarf spread over one lamp and the >harsh bulbs in two others replaced by softer, redder, moodier lights. > >A certain sense of spooky poetry was always at the core of Ms. Nicks' >appeal. > >In popular Fleetwood Mac hits and fan favorites like "Rhiannon," "Gold >Dust Woman" and "Sisters of the Moon," she wrote and sang of magical, >charismatic, tortured women like the one she pantomimed onstage. > >It made her a superstar, a commercial force as potent in the late 1970s >and early '80s as Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston now. The songs she >contributed to Fleetwood Mac, from "Dreams" to "Sara" to "Gypsy," >were powerful engines behind the group's multi-platinum albums. > >But Ms. Nicks also had her part in the group's romantic fractiousness. > >The songs on "Rumours," many of which are resurrected on "The >Dance," chronicle her breakup with Lindsey Buckingham, the band's lead >guitarist and male vocalist, and the pianist-singer Christine McVie's >divorce from the bassist John McVie. Subsequently, Ms. Nicks had an >affair with the band's drummer, Mick Fleetwood. > >Ms. Nicks began making her own records before the "Rumours" lineup >of Fleetwood Mac finally dissolved in 1987, juggling a solo career and >membership in the band for many years. Her first three solo albums, >"Bella Donna," "The Wild Heart" and "Rock a Little," sold millions of >copies. > >Her image, moreover, was indelible, perhaps best exemplified by an >annual event at Mother, a Greenwich Village night club where hundreds >of people from all over the country come every spring to pay homage to >Ms. Nicks, many of the men donning Nicks-ian drag. It is called "Night >of a Thousand Stevies." > >But somewhere along the way, the mixture of reverence and ridicule with >which Ms. Nicks was always treated began to tip in the direction of the > latter. > >As her voice moved from her head and throat to her chest, it sometimes >got stuck in awkward places in between. In the early '90s, she also >battled the herpes-related Epstein-Barr virus, which dragged down her >performances during a tour to promote her fourth solo album, "The Other >Side of the Mirror." > >Her most recent solo album, "Street Angel," released in 1994, sold >poorly, and its accompanying tour subjected Ms. Nicks to the >humiliation of appearing onstage in a zaftig form that shocked fans. > >"It was a horrible, horrible thing for me," she says, her voice dropping >to >a pained whisper. "I said, 'I will not go onstage ever again if I don't >lose >this weight.' " > >With the help of Dr. Robert Atkins' famous low-carbohydrate diet, she >did. "I just made a decision," she says, "that I was going to be healthy >and I was going to enjoy my life and I was going to enjoy my singing and >I was going to enjoy how incredibly lucky I am to have been in a big, >huge rock-and-roll band and been very successful and have songs that >people loved and that they recite at their graduations and their >funerals >and their bar mitzvahs and their baby showers." > >"Silver Springs" could become another of those classics. A studio >version >was originally recorded two decades ago for "Rumours," but the other >members of Fleetwood Mac decided it was too long and cut it from the >album. It was consigned to the B side of a single and rare appearances >on a handful of radio stations. > >But when the band members began rehearsals this year for the limited >series of concerts to be recorded and assembled into "The Dance," they >decided to revisit "Silver Springs." Ms. Nicks, singing in a craggier >but >more powerful style, transmogrified this tale of estranged lovers from a >wistful lament into an anguished reproach. > >"Her voice is amazing," said Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins. "It's >matured into something almost as beautiful as it was when she was >young. It's different, but just as distinct." Corgan, 30, met Ms. Nicks >about a year ago, has become friendly with her and says he hopes to >work with her on her next record. "I think she's so ready to re-emerge >as >a completely vital artist," he said. "It's like she told me: 'I feel >like I'm >coming out of a fog.' " > >Among the things Ms. Nicks says she sees more clearly now is the >importance of family. She spends much of her time in her house in the >Phoenix area, where her parents, younger brother, his wife and their >daughter live. Ms. Nicks never had any children and says she is single >for >now, and maybe for a while. Music is once again absorbing her attention, >and giving her back what comfort she needs. > >That was obvious when she paused before leaving the stage of the >Lakewood Ampitheater in Atlanta to thank fans for staying faithful and >coming to the show. "It matters," she told them, "more than you'll ever >know." > >Enchanted List Website: www.cl-sys.com/mstephens/HomePage/Stevie/Stevie.html > NOTE: Please use your G)roup reply to post a reply to the stevie-l list. > > > "If you really want a challenge, just deal with yourself." - -Tori Amos "We all get intimidated by showing ourselves, for whatever reason, we think, If I really show who I am, and someone goes [pfftt] then it's gonna crush me. Well, it's not gonna crush me. It doesn't crush you if somebody does that- somebody will do that. Many times. And once you accept that that's not why you're doing it, you're doing it because that's your form of expression." --Tori Amos "Definitions are limiting. Limitations are deadening. To limit oneself is a kind of suicide. To limit another is a kind of murder. To limit poetry is a Hiroshima of the human spirit." --Tom Robbins "Music takes us out of the actual and whispers to us dim secrets that startle us to wonder as to who we are, and for what, whence, and whereth." - --Ralph Waldo Emerson "I listen to a lot of music and I read a lot of books and I know something great when I hear it." - -Tori Amos "Who said that? Who made up that rule? And what grave is he in over in Europe? Who cares? The worms have eaten him. It's over" - -Tori Amos "When all young people would start listening to their own voice instead of saying what adults say or whatever MTV dicatates, this would be a whole different planet." - -Tori Amos "Actually, I think the Muppets have a pretty good grip on things." - -Ray Lesch ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V2 #334 *************************************