From: owner-precious-things-digest To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V1 #238 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Thursday, 21 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 238 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Numbness poe and jewel and others... Jewel [non tori content] re: Farewell Card Happenings Fw: covers vs. original Re: covers vs. original Re: poe and jewel and others... Re: Jewel [non tori content] the popular songs Re: poe and jewel and others... RE: poe and jewel and others... RE: Numbness Re: the popular songs Jewel Unoriginal? STOP IT RIGHT NOW! all the girls hate her ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kristina L Goetz Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:35:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Numbness the way you feel about Jewel, I feel about Poe- she has to be the worst excuse for a musician out there.... Kristina ------------------------------ From: "thanatos collided..." Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:12:22 EST Subject: poe and jewel and others... one has to look at Poe, Jewel and Alanis very carefully, they're the epitome of "overproduced artists" their music is un-original and rather repetitive, they're backed up with major radio and mtv coverage, and really (i don't think) should ever be compared to another artist like tori, or any other artist who didn't have their singles playing constantly on the radio or mtv (other bands inclue gravity kills, counting crows, bush) who took a lot of their influence from bands who really deserved the coverage - ie: the pixies, nirvana, nine inch nails, skinny puppy - so there's really no comparison courtney love is the same way, there are a lot of artists out there like that, i'm not saying that i'm a saint or that i only support indie artists (tori's on atlantic for christ's sake) but my tastes usually lean more towards those bands and artists who don't get a lot of radio or mtv coverage...if i have to hear that one bush song one more time i'm going to scream i think that tori deserves the coverage she's getting, she came out of nowhere with her "girl and her piano idea" following in the wake of (god forbid) billy joel, but using more interesting lyrics....combining poetry and piano - and you get someone who can really do that without a slew of larger producers behind them telling them what to do - or breaking away from the mainstream - fiona apple tried the "girl and her piano" but her music is so uninteresting that i usually turn off mtv....trent reznor did it with nine inch nails (he did start it in 1989, and never really got recognised for it) and he deserves it, because his music combines a lot of noise, sonic youth's been doing it for over ten years now (i think the album sonic youth came out in 1981), marilyn manson brought back "shock rock" which was almost dead and losing itself in the "metal"scene that had been taken over by aerosmith (DON'T even get me started there) a lot of the radio/mtv bands play the same thing over and over because it sells, gavin rosdale has the quintessential alterna-scunge raspy voice - and his chord progressions are directly from nirvana who stole them from the pixies if i have to hear "angry johnny," "who's going to save your soul," "swallowed," or "shadowboxer" again i'm probably going to hole myself up with my own music and let music dig itself into a black hole that's all ~jordan~shaking hell~ ******************************************************************************** scar scar can you feel my power...one shot and the world gets smaller --marilyn.manson-- ******************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: neshah@singnet.com.sg Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:31:37 +0800 (SST) Subject: Jewel [non tori content] I'm terribly sorry for the non-tori content folks, and I am NOT looking to start some sort of flame fest, but some things just *have* to be said. At 01:35 AM 21/11/96 -0500, Kristina L Goetz wrote: >the way you feel about Jewel, I feel about Poe- she has to be the worst >excuse for a musician out there.... At least Poe doesn't go around pretending to be "deep" in that embarrasingly pretentious way jewel does. And "jewel" is just about *the* greatest misnomer there ever was. neshah ------------------------------ From: shugafly@juno.com (Supa Freak) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:41:18 EST Subject: re: Farewell Card Happenings hi everyone We're back from Colorado (sick with sniffles) but managed a wonderful time. We apologise for the delay in relaying Tori's warmest wishes to all of you who participated in the farewell card. Here's everything that happened: Maria and I worked feverishly trying to squeeze in all 280+ messages that we received to include on the card and it took nearly over 24 hours non-stop to finish it, but it was completed and quite impressive at that (we must admit). :) How did it look? Photos were taken of the card and will be scanned ASAP but you all must bear with us cuz we don't own a scanner (any scanning volunteers?). But in the meantime, here's a description of what it looked like... The card was a 24" store bought card (which worked perfectly) with very vibrant and colourful lettering. On the front, there was a cartoon mouse holding a tissue with the saying: "Goodbye....but before you go any further there's something you should know...." and INSIDE was the same mouse crying with the saying: "....you will be missed very much.....Take Care!" Scattered around it were each of the messages printed out in large and multicoloured fonts adding to its vibrancy. When was it presented to Tori? The card was presented to Tori after the last show in Boulder. We gave her the card along with the sincerity and warmth that all of you extended in your messages. We told her how well loved and admired she is over the internet and in so many various parts of the world and need she ever need reminding she could always look at this card. We told her that over 280 of you sent us little messages with your farewell to her and to this chapter of her life. She wished that it could be done in a more private scenario as she felt it was a private moment, but with all the goings on around us she seemed truly touched by it all. So she accepted the card with honour and privilege and she cocked her head, gave us that trademark Tori smile and said "Thank You guys".... ....and to that we want to thank all of you who contributed and to all the list owners and tori page owners (mikewhy) for helping us spread the word on this project. We truly appreciate it. If any of you have any questions or comments email either of us... and thanks again..... :))))) See ya in two years!?! - -devin- & maria shugafly@juno.com miv@eden.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ From: "Damon Schmidt" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:39:36 -0600 Subject: Fw: covers vs. original - ---------- > From: Damon Schmidt > To: MaLjaMiN > Subject: Re: covers vs. original > Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 1:38 AM > > > > I have a lot of songs by Tori that I'm not sure if they're covers or > > originals... One I wondered about was A Case of You... someone just > > mentioned Joni Mitchell did a version of it, but I still don't know which > of > > them originally did it... so, what songs has tori done, besides SLTS, and > > losing my religion, obviously, that are covers? > > > > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Angie---Rolling Stones > Thank You---Led Zeppelin > Imagine---John Lennon > A Case Of You---Joni Mitchell > Ain't No SUnshine---? > Sentimental Journey---? > Ring My Bell=----? > Don't know for sure who originally played the last several--- i have a list > of who wrote them but it's kinda hard to read and that doesn't always mean > that person sang it:).. > ------------------------------ From: "Damon Schmidt" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:40:08 -0600 Subject: Re: covers vs. original Famous Blue Raincoat is on a tribute album called Tower Of Song, I believe Damon ------------------------------ From: "Damon Schmidt" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:47:12 -0600 Subject: Re: poe and jewel and others... I have to say i don't think jewel is as overproduced as poe and i think they both deserve what little success they are seeing... as a big fan of both, i find neither to be unoriginal, but then you've only heard the singles, yes? Jewel's mountains of older and newer unreleased material do tend to be better than her album, IMHO... Damon ------------------------------ From: "Damon Schmidt" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:55:33 -0600 Subject: Re: Jewel [non tori content] - ---------- > From: neshah@singnet.com.sg > To: precious-things@smoe.org > Subject: Jewel [non tori content] > Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 1:31 AM > > I'm terribly sorry for the non-tori content folks, and I am NOT looking to > start some sort of flame fest, but some things just *have* to be said. > > At 01:35 AM 21/11/96 -0500, Kristina L Goetz wrote: > > >the way you feel about Jewel, I feel about Poe- she has to be the worst > >excuse for a musician out there.... > At least Poe doesn't go around pretending to be "deep" in that embarrasingly > pretentious way jewel does. And "jewel" is just about *the* greatest > misnomer there ever was. > > neshah > I think this is absolutely ridiculous. I am a fan of all three and I find very little pretense in any of them (tori/jewel/poe). I'll admit that jewel's best tunes are not found on her album, but Poe's best stuff is also as yet unreleased. If you truly think either one is a poor excuse for a musician, I believe you haven't heard the right stuff....just my opinion...no flames, please, it's childish... Damon ------------------------------ From: MaLjaMiN Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:26:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: the popular songs If I had based my opinion of Tori on her singles, I wouldn't like her much. It is a popular tendency... I've do it with some artists. And not that Tori's singles are subpar, but for some reason, they don't come close to accurately representing the whole Tori. It's like, gotta release the songs with a clear drum beat (or add them in the case of Talula and Hey Jup) even though, what, 4 in 5 Tori Amos songs is originally sans drums? Tori is wonderful for always playing something different, and not necessarily a single on television appearances (father lucifer, marianne, icicle, to name a few I've seen her do on TV shows), which improves this whole factor. In fact icicle was what *really* made me want to hear more. A lot of other artists tend to play their single over and over, probably doing what their producers tell them to. Shame on them... I usually ignore it and try not to further my opinion until I hear more. That's how I am with Fiona.. I found her interviews interesting, but I've only heard that one stinking song, and I'm sick of it. Kinda like I tend to skip past God on UTP... I just can't hear any music. Babbling a bit now.. later. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Josh Sutterfield Musician/DJ-Wannabe/Social-Retard Jester Shot Fluid MaLjaMiN joshu@umr.edu http://www.umr.edu/~joshu - --- I'm not a wordplay freak, I'm just a cunning linguist. ------------------------------ From: kondot@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (broccoli) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:04:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: poe and jewel and others... okie, i'm really riled up over this flame bait: [thanatos collided...] said: >one has to look at Poe, Jewel and Alanis very carefully, they're the epitome of >"overproduced artists" their music is un-original and rather repetitive, >they're backed up with major radio and mtv coverage, and really (i don't think) >should ever be compared to another artist like tori, or any other artist who >didn't have their singles playing constantly on the radio or mtv (other bands >inclue gravity kills, counting crows, bush) who took a lot of their influence >from bands who really deserved the coverage - ie: the pixies, nirvana, nine >inch nails, skinny puppy - so there's really no comparison for one thing, i believe that poe imho is the only one that sounds "overproduced" out of the three but is that a crime? i love her work and she sounds awesome acoustic live. her best work is also not stuff off her album. i'm saying this as a person who has listened to the entire albums of all three. and just what is so unoriginal about their work? don't get me wrong, i'm am the biggest nin fan, but i can name several bands that trent got his influences from. not to mention that he himself agrees that "down in it" was a rip off of skinny puppy's "dig it". and there are soo many people in the industrial music genre who loathe it when nin and skinny puppy are put in the same category. bottom line, people are entitled to their own opinions, but they shouldn't be passed off as fact. there exists a whole passel of jewel fans out there who feel the same way about her as we feel about tori, and it's very insulting when you plainly state "jewel sucks--she doesn't deserve it". >courtney love is the same way, there are a lot of artists out there like that, >i'm not saying that i'm a saint or that i only support indie artists (tori's on >atlantic for christ's sake) but my tastes usually lean more towards those bands >and artists who don't get a lot of radio or mtv coverage...if i have to hear >that one bush song one more time i'm going to scream the only reason jewel is finally getting coverage is because atlantic records had a lot of faith in her talents and continued to support her. her album "pieces of you" is over two years old now, and "who will save your soul" is just now coming out of the closet. there are also sooo many of her unreleased songs out there that better represents her "sound". she had a rough background, and i am irked when people say that she had immediate success without hard work. i feel she along with any other "mtv" band deserve the coverage they receive. however, they don't deserve to be trashed just because of the extra support they receive from the media. if you look hard enough, every band has their own little sob story about finally making it. as for heavy rotation, the side effect is that you get tired of the song. when "caught a lite sneeze" first came out, the local station that i listened to played it all the time!! so much that i got sick of it, and this is exactly what happened to bands like green day but on a larger scale. overcoverage kills the fan base, it's not the fault of the band and it doesn't make them unoriginal. >i think that tori deserves the coverage she's getting, she came out of nowhere >with her "girl and her piano idea" following in the wake of (god forbid) billy >joel, but using more interesting lyrics....combining poetry and piano - and you >get someone who can really do that without a slew of larger producers behind >them telling them what to do - or breaking away from the mainstream - fiona >apple tried the "girl and her piano" but her music is so uninteresting that i >usually turn off mtv....trent reznor did it with nine inch nails (he did start >it in 1989, and never really got recognised for it) and he deserves it, because >his music combines a lot of noise, sonic youth's been doing it for over ten >years now (i think the album sonic youth came out in 1981), marilyn manson >brought back "shock rock" which was almost dead and losing itself in the >"metal"scene that had been taken over by aerosmith (DON'T even get me started >there) most popular bands came from "out of nowhere" if you think about it. the only ones i think that get boosts are ones that ride on the successes of others in advertisement, but that's still not an argument to downplay their talents. and marilyn manson's latest album received tons of support from trent and ogilvie!! to the point where they sound more like nin now then anything else. value judgments based on only the singles played on the radio would result in rants of tori being overproduced as well. listen to the dakota mix of hey jupiter for instance. to me, it reeks of the shiny hands of producers. in fact, she's been a victim of the so called record producer's hands too. what else would explain all the remixed singles and the dance singles? >a lot of the radio/mtv bands play the same thing over and over because it >sells, gavin rosdale has the quintessential alterna-scunge raspy voice - and >his chord progressions are directly from nirvana who stole them from the pixies i'm confused. you say that nirvana stole chords from the pixies, and yet you list both of them as the bands that deserve coverage for being original? >if i have to hear "angry johnny," "who's going to save your soul," "swallowed," >or "shadowboxer" again i'm probably going to hole myself up with my own music >and let music dig itself into a black hole don't prosecute bands because of what mtv and radio have done!! i'm tired of hearing people discredit bands because mtv has put their vids in the buzz bin. i hear it over and over "oh, i liked them when they were underground, but now mtv plays their videos and they're mainstream so i hate them." all of a sudden, the once so-original band now sucks? where is the logic in this? tomokondo ------------------------------ From: "Mickey Sun" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 10:50:52 UT Subject: RE: poe and jewel and others... HOW can Jewel be over produced??? She plays a freakin' acoustic guitar for Christ's sake. Every person interprets music differently. I have the Poe and Jewel albums, and I like Alanis (although I do not own the album) to an extent. I believe that if a musician writes his/her material, then he/she then has something valid to say. Whether it's about themselves or the meaning of life who knows, but to say that a musician suck just because his/her music is played constantly on MTV or the radio is not cool. I believe that there every musician has an audience who can relate to them. Personally, I would not have discovered my favorite musician without MTV. Two years ago, I saw a video of a red-haired woman dancing with snakes and rodents singing, "God sometimes you just don't come through." I've been a dedicated and loyal fan ever since. And you have to remember, Tori did her "girl and her piano" only after the miserable flop of YKTR. Imagined what might have happened if YKTR went multi-platinum. You probably would have included Tori in the list of "overproduced artists". Now would you think that Tori would be a different person had YKTR been a success? I don't believe so, she would still be Tori. Anyway, it's almost 3:00 AM and I have classes tomorrow so I'll see you all later. Keep an open mind, Mickey - ---------- From: owner-precious-things@smoe.org on behalf of thanatos collided... Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 11:12 PM To: precious-things@smoe.org Subject: poe and jewel and others... one has to look at Poe, Jewel and Alanis very carefully, they're the epitome of "overproduced artists" their music is un-original and rather repetitive, they're backed up with major radio and mtv coverage, and really (i don't think) should ever be compared to another artist like tori, or any other artist who didn't have their singles playing constantly on the radio or mtv (other bands inclue gravity kills, counting crows, bush) who took a lot of their influence from bands who really deserved the coverage - ie: the pixies, nirvana, nine inch nails, skinny puppy - so there's really no comparison i think that tori deserves the coverage she's getting, she came out of nowhere with her "girl and her piano idea" following in the wake of (god forbid) billy joel, but using more interesting lyrics....combining poetry and piano - and you get someone who can really do that without a slew of larger producers behind them telling them what to do - or breaking away from the mainstream - fiona apple tried the "girl and her piano" but her music is so uninteresting that i usually turn off mtv....trent reznor did it with nine inch nails (he did start it in 1989, and never really got recognised for it) and he deserves it, because his music combines a lot of noise, sonic youth's been doing it for over ten years now (i think the album sonic youth came out in 1981), marilyn manson brought back "shock rock" which was almost dead and losing itself in the "metal"scene that had been taken over by aerosmith (DON'T even get me started there) a lot of the radio/mtv bands play the same thing over and over because it sells, gavin rosdale has the quintessential alterna-scunge raspy voice - and his chord progressions are directly from nirvana who stole them from the pixies if i have to hear "angry johnny," "who's going to save your soul," "swallowed," or "shadowboxer" again i'm probably going to hole myself up with my own music and let music dig itself into a black hole that's all ~jordan~shaking hell~ ****************************************************************************** ** scar scar can you feel my power...one shot and the world gets smaller --marilyn.manson-- ****************************************************************************** ** ------------------------------ From: "Mickey Sun" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 10:57:45 UT Subject: RE: Numbness Um....I think that Barney the Big Purple Dinosaur would beat Jewel out for the award as the most vile and loathesome musician gracing the earth. Ever heard his rendition of "I love you...you love me...we're one happy family"? Mickey Pretty girl, pretty girl, do you hate her Cause she's pieces of you? - -Jewel- - ---------- From: owner-precious-things@smoe.org on behalf of Traumachik@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 8:18 PM To: precious-things@smoe.org Subject: Re: Numbness As far as the LA show, I am utterly disappointed with the lineup, for one sole reason - JOOL. She is by far the most vile and loathesome musician gracing the earth, and is by no means worthy of licking Tori's shoes, never mind sharing a stage with her. She should just be eliminated, and all the Jool fans out there should listen to Syd Straw, because Syd has TALENT. ------------------------------ From: Ken Tough Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:49:55 +0000 Subject: Re: the popular songs >If I had based my opinion of Tori on her singles, I wouldn't like her much. >It is a popular tendency... I've do it with some artists. And not that >Tori's singles are subpar, but for some reason, they don't come close to >accurately representing the whole Tori. One word: Beesides... More words: I feel the same way about the Tori songs released as singles, and therefore played on mainstream radio. I don't listen to music radio in the UK because it is all chart-oriented in that way. [Though the first time I heard Tori live was around UTP time on a live studio thing on Radio 1.] It's the same as developing an impression of Bjork based on her airplay alone. Still, the B-sides and covers are where Tori really shines, a treasure to be discovered. They're like a little window into the real depths and eclectic wonderful chaos inside... The "big song" is a small price to pay for that. - -- Ken Tough Cornwall ken@objectech.co.uk United Kingdom ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rae Hicks Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:23:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Jewel Unoriginal? To all of you out there who are talking down about Jewel- I know this a Tori list, but I can't stand to hear that Jewel is an unoriginal artist. If you've only heard Who Will Save Your Soul? it's the equivalant to only hearing God or Cornflake Girl. They're good songs, but there's so much more out there that's 100's of times better. Jewel has actually written about 200 songs and about 150 are out on misc. boots. Who Will Save Your Soul? was one of the first she ever wrote so if you don't think it's the greatest song cut her some slack okay. You should hear the praises that Tori gets on the Jewel mailing list. Sorry to be semi-rude, but I'm going on 2 hours of sleep. I got up to got to my 7:45 English class and the prof. only kept us for 15 minutes. Now, I want to go home to sleep, but I'm to busy....RAMBLE.... Little Earthquake Traumachik- oh, yeah...Are you talking about Jewel when you say Jool? Cause I could get really really p.o.'d about that comment... "I was thinking that I might fly today"...Jewel ------------------------------ From: ckone7@juno.com (Scott Francisco) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:53:00 EST Subject: STOP IT RIGHT NOW! OK thats it! There is a place for this aruguing and its the Jewel and POe mailing list. you all are acting stupid and are waisting my time. This is not place to talk a about jewel or poe. It's to talk about TORI! I am sick off getting ten-thousand about who is better and it is making me mad! Just stop it right now! >~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~> This wonderful message is from Scott Francisco I think I'll go for a walk outside now the summer sun's calling my name, (I hear it now) just can't wait inside all day... - - The Brady Children ------------------------------ From: "thanatos collided..." Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:27:41 EST Subject: all the girls hate her so you all hate me now, because i gave my own opinion and happened to insult a couple of your music tastes, i can't begin to tell you how many private marilyn manson flames i got when i first mentioned them...i'm sorry if i fucking offended you, i was only stating my opinion (and a well based one at that) i didn't want to get crucified for it, and you're all going to say "well, what did you expect" but i would think better of all of you if some of the flames i received were not from poe or jewel fans, but that's all i got go ahead, like your music...and i'll listen to my marilyn manson, and we'll all have our own parties...because this is a list about tori amos (although sometimes redundant) and maybe, sometimes, i don't want to invite the rest of you oh yes, and the first song i heard by tori was crucify...and i didn't like it very much, but someone bought me little earthquakes as a gift and alanis doesn't write her own songs, just the lyrics ~jordan~long time musician, language student, former brit~ ******************************************************************************** this is beyond your experience --marilyn.manson-- ******************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V1 #238 *************************************