From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V7 #187 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Wednesday, August 21 2002 Volume 07 : Number 187 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Fw: raspberry swirl is radio friendly? ["Tony Fernandes" ] vh1 news clip [guapo stick ] RE: Poor Tori... (rant) (public lynching) ["ForgottenSecret" ] Tour news ["by the woods" ] Re: Tour news [Cyndi S Crawford ] RE: Tour news [Nicholas.Cattaneo@WellsFargo.COM] Re: tori on san francisco radio [Richard Handal ] NYC RAINN Bash info, anyone? [Richard Handal ] Re: Poor Tori... (rant) (public lynching) ["mr zebra" Subject: Fw: raspberry swirl is radio friendly? Cyndi S. Crawford wrote: "Tori needs a Grammy, I say.. what do you guys think?" Yeah! And an award for having the highest percentage of obssessed fans. Tony What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:23:43 +0200 From: Topher Subject: Re: Poor Tori... (rant) (public lynching) *jen* said: >i just have to disagree with this. listening to the lyrics of "spark" one can >just feel her overwhelming sadness for the loss of her child ("she's >convinced she could hold back a glacier, but she couldn't keep baby alive!" >and "she's afraid of the light in the dark"), and i honestly think most >"radio listeners" are not interested in such subjects. that subject matter is >light years away from "hit me baby one more time"! and as for "raspberry >swirl"....ha! technically speaking it is refering to a female orgasm (though >there are other layers and meanings to the song). i just don't feel where you >are coming from with this. I am sure that the people on the Britney list will find you the deep psychological meaning to "hit me baby one more time" related to her personal life that no other listener could care less about. *Any* song out there can be read into... that's what the lyrics are for. Unless Tori clearly states in her songs "I lost my child" or "I am masturbating", I think non-Toriphiles are unlikely to bother with the underlying meanings. >but, with that said, i don;t think tori has any reason to try to reach out to >a larger crowd. even though she has never been miss media queen doesn't mean >that she doesn't have thousands...probably millions of fans. and look at us >all. we even have a title....toriphiles!!!! it's like a cult, almost. even in >her "behind the music" on vh1 they discussed how her fans are cult-like in >the way that we "worship" her. she reaches and inspires very large groups of >people WITHOUT being on played on MTV once every hour. and i think that >proves that she is probably even more loved than most pop artists. and she >reaches so many different "types" of people. My point exactly. She doesn't need extra exposure. She could stop releasing singles if she wanted to (unless her contract forces her to) ... but she doesn't. Why ?... She probably wants to draw even more attention. What could be another reason ? Cyndi said: >Datura is one of those songs that just.. (rofl, I know, I'm crazy! >lol) just about literally gets me dancing in my seat--especially during >movement two. Hey, that's actually the only 2 minutes or so that I like about the album. :-) (not including the live cd) >Tori needs a Grammy, I say.. what do you >guys think? Well, if the Grammy was truly representative of the best artists out there, it would definitely mean something. But is it really ?... Nah... Forgotten Secret said: >The only thing I have to say on the matter is, each one of >Tori's albums were different in some way. Give the girl a break >just because she signs to a commercial album and her new music is >silightly commercial doesn't mean it was done for that reason. > >Tori has moved in the direction that is comfortable for her - > >Respect that. You are saying that she makes a commercial album with no intent to be commercial, right ??? Why else would she do that ? Richard said: > > Well, I just heard 4 other tracks from the upcoming album... and >> still, it all sounds pretty rehashed to me. > >I don't know what else to say to you about this right now. You seem to be >listening to this new music in relation to other music rather than just to >this new music itself, and the music you're finding it to be in relation >to is not music you have much respect for. I think as long as you or >anyone else does that it's unlikely you'll enjoy it much. Well, the rehashed feeling that I get is from Tori's own work. Some would call them "trademarks" I guess... the "Heeeerreee", some piano basslines, stuff like that... I don't expect her to change *radically* everything for each album, but in my opinion, redundancies make the whole thing sound less inspired. >I keep going back to Beatles records. Did the Beatles lose audience >members when they got so psychedelic after being those lovable mop-tops at >the beginning? I imagine they did; some people in their initial audience >probably felt betrayed and abandoned, and others found the new orientation >of their records to be a challenging and enlightening breath of fresh air, >and probably some of the newer fans didn't care all that much for the >earlier, less experimental, less unusually-structured material. I think >almost everything the Beatles released was wonderful. I'm able to take >each type of song on its own merits and hear the emotion speak to me. Well, there's obvious maturity between "I Wanna Hold You Hand" and "A Day In The Life" for instance, isn't there ? - I'd rather think they lost some audience switching from the whole psychedelic era to songs like "Get Back". I see a direct analogy with what Tori is doing right now I guess. >The only reason she's composed such structurally challenging songs in the >past is that she thinks in a more linear sense a lot of the time than the >usual songwriter who *does* tend to think in a verse-chorus-verse manner, >and the unusual structures she came up with were a natural outgrowth of >that mindset. I definitely believe she never sat down to write a song with >a structure that would be perceived in any particular way just to impress >anybody. Oh, I don't think that either. But who needs more verse-chorus-verse songs when you can write epic, challenging stuff ? I'm not saying that she should do that exclusively, but at least she is *able* to do it (unlike most), so why not go that way instead ? >I can't speak for anyone else, but you may be the only one who seems to >require some evidence that she's visibly expended some unusual mental >effort into the kinds of structures she builds the music on, and I have to >say I'm finding such a notion to be must curious. It's exactly that. The songwriting effort is *really* not obvious to me anymore. >What about when she >performs covers live? Did you ever get your ticket to the 30 Aug 2001 >Union Chapel show that you posted asking for or did you see her in Paris >on 27 Nov 2001? At each show she performed This Old Man. Did you sit there >and grumble that she was playing a children's nursery rhyme and that the >structure wasn't somehow challenging enough to engage you intellectually? >I find there is a lot of scary emotion when she performs This Old Man >live. You stalker ! (just kidding) - no, I never managed to get tickets for the Union Chapel show so I didn't go at all. Too bad, I could've met her in the afternoon as she was hanging out with the crowd outside. If I'd had the chance, I would have definitely asked her about the song structures, etc... :-) I did see her once in Paris in '96 though. And what I'm going to say is sheer heresy that could get me banned from this list forever, but... I was bored. The whole thing sounded like such a routine to her. Each song ending leading to loud hysterical whooping from the audience and people yelling out as many track names as they could before she would start playing something else and they'd finally shut up. I can't blame her though, touring must be a crazy experience and I doubt that any artist is 100 percent connected to their songs every single night for two hours. Anyway, I regret not getting to see her with her band. I'll still try to catch her on the next tour though, even if she performs solo. As for how I would react if she performed "This Old Man" live, well, whatever sticks too close to the original recording doesn't have much interest to me. Even a subtle sound or bass change, or anything can make it sound different live. That's actually why I like the "To Venus And Back" live CD. Of course, there's only so much you can do with only two hands, your voice and a piano and she's not going to come up with a totally different version of everything for her live shows if she performs by herself, but I wouldn't have refused more diversity at the show I went to. >I'm not sure why you seem to feel a need to *be* impressed. What about the >emotion? Does not emotion come to you in cases when you are not >intellectually impressed by song structure? If one requires impressive >structure in the music they listen to does that mean they like to listen >to a lot of avant garde "classical" composers such as Philip Glass and >Steven Reich? Why should it be one or the other when you're a talented songwriter like she is ? Conveying an emotion through a 2-minute ballad is fine by me but every other artist out there can write a ballad. As for impressive structure, I don't know if Glass and Reich are really the most qualified for that. Repetitive themes with a subtle addition or change every 8 bars or so is what they do. And that's okay. Of course there are exceptions (especially Steve Reich). Heresy again, but I think Jane's Addiction's song "Three Days" has a very good structure (for a rock song). >Her husband Mark and Marcel have been engineering her records since Pele. >They work as a team. You think she needs to fire her husband? *She's* the >one *producing* these records. Look no further. After all, divorcing from her husband could only make her more available to some of the single men on the list (I'm taken - you guys go ahead). :-) I also think they could use the guidance of a renowned producer. I think P.J. Harvey uses good ones for instance. >Riot Poof brings a sense of freedom to me, like I'm standing on a rooftop >with my arms outstretched. I sure have never heard *anything* that could make me do that ! :-) >I know a lot of people have complained about 1000 Oceans and I never did >understand that. If people aren't moved by its naked emotion then I can't >fathom what it is those people are looking for from music. Perhaps >"challenging structure" is what they need. The idea of that eludes me. I think 1000 Oceans is a very average ballad. That's cool if some people are moved by it, but how could you consider it as a good piece of work when you know what other things she has written ? Are you ready to find beauty and emotion in Tori grunting in a megaphone and banging on a can ? I can't help but imagining a collaboration "Mike Patton Vs. Tori Amos" - Now *that* would be an experience !... a bit like "John Cage meets Sun Ra"... but probably better... :-) > > Cornflake Girl is downright radio-friendly (apart from a few things here >> and there) but at least it doesn't make me think of Nelly Furtado or >> Beverley Knight when I hear it (which is what I feel when I listen to >> "Taxi Ride"). > >See, this is why I suspect you aren't dealing with these new songs on >their own terms. You seem unable to stop having associations with other >songs you find similar long enough to perceive them. What's considered as hip and trendy nowadays in terms of production is likely to sound old and ridiculous. How many things can stand the test of time without a wrinkle ?... Well, I think "Under The Pink" can... the song "Hotel" on "Choirgirl" for instance is filled with cheap bleeps and it will probably make us smile to hear that in just ten years from now. I still don't hear anything laughable about the production of "Little Earthquakes" that *is* 10 years old already ! Topher. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 03:51:10 -0700 From: "Tony Fernandes" Subject: Fw: Fw: Poor Tori... (rant) Cyndi S. Crawford wrote: "Your comments on listening to "Putting The Damage On" in your car sounds sweet.. almost as if she were playing in your backseat, right? *grin*" Almost! Actually, she sounds like she sitting on my dash and leaning over and singing into my head. The majority of the sound *should* originate from the front of the car with some ambience from behind. After all, you wouldn't go to a Tori concert and sit backwards, would you? *grins back* Tony What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:43:33 -0700 From: guapo stick Subject: vh1 news clip there's a news flash being shown on vh1 now and then which features a snippet of an interview with tori. i managed to tivo it this morning. here's a transcript of what was said: [announcer standing in front and to the side of a tv monitor displaying the half-shot of Tori. the image is actually a polaroid with tori's half face along the side with the thicker border. "Tori Amos Scarlet's Walk" is written along the thick border] Announcer: Tori Amos' upcoming new CD, Scarlet's Walk, is a concept album about a roadtrip across America. Among the observations made on the trip is the prevelance of misoygny and homophobia in pop culture. [cut to Tori, wearing a pinkish, off-the-shoulder on one side shirt] Tori: There's a lot of, um, I guess you could say, similar ideaology between the right-wing and some young hipsters. You know, it's just like Jesse Helms in tattoos. [cut back to announcer] Announcer: Scarlet's Walk hits stores October 29th. For more music news, go to VH1News.com,. I'm Rachel Perry. alas, i'm not equipped to do screenshots or video capture...sorry... woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:47:50 +0100 From: "ForgottenSecret" Subject: RE: Poor Tori... (rant) (public lynching) You are saying that she makes a commercial album with no intent to be commercial, right ??? Why else would she do that ? I meant to say "She signed to a commercial label" instead of album :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:49:20 EDT From: Dracovixen@aol.com Subject: Re: to Topher In a message dated 8/19/02 1:21:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org writes: > 've been a lurker on this list for something like 6 years now.... > and I just heard the soundclip of "A Sorta Fairytale"... *sigh*... > > I am so disppointed to see that Tori feels obliged to make > MTV-formatted songs... I can totally imagine the trendy video that's > going to go with it... Okay, granted, ever since "Crucify", she's > been pretty much radio-friendly but she was just starting her career > then... > Wow, what radio have you been listening to? I wish that New England radio was like that. I can remember hearing four songs on the commercial radio: Crucify, Cornflake Girl, Caught a Lite Sneeze, and Bliss. College radio is far more friendly to her, though they are that way with everyone who isn't Britney Spears. > To me, "Under The Pink" still remains her most intricate and > elaborate album to date. "Boys For Pele" was striving to be > experimental here and there... but I think she lost it after that.. > > "Songs From The Choirgirl Hotel" is filled with radio-friendly stuff, > but thank God, tracks like "Pandora's Aquarium" show the difference > in songwriting between her and, say, Sheryl Crow. Yes, because I can imagine Sheryl Crow singing "Liquid Diamonds" and "I i eee"... What were the radio tracks on that one anyway? Raspberry Swirl was dancey, but I don't believe Jackie's Strength or Spark really made it anywhere... > > I won't even mention "To Venus And Back"... I believe its only > interests resides in the gorgeous live CD. Yet, instrumentally and sonically, it was a vastly different, more experimental album than any she created...I thought that was what you were going for. I'm not trying to downplay your opinion here, I'm just wondering what made you think these things, and why you think Tori Amos is actually radio friendly. > > However, I have to say that "Strange Little Girls" reconciliated me > with her originality. Yet, it was a cover album... Don't get me wrong, I understand the concept, and I personally loved the album, but the only thing original about it was how she changed the songs soundwise to make them her own, and the concept she developed behind it. So, now we can call it a cover/concept album and defy the claim that Tori has no originality. > > Don't get me wrong, she doesn't *need* to make anything complicated > in order to be valuable in my eyes, but we know that she can > experiment with talent and the question is, why doesn't she do that > more often anymore (not to say exclusively) ? > I still think she's talented in what she does, and she definitely has taken what she has learned in her life in order to create this album. Have you heard any of the other songs? You can hear a lot of the other albums she has created, in these songs. My friend thinks it's a cross between UTP and BFP, another friend a cross between BFP and SLG, and I think it's like a cross between LE and SLG, but I can hear the other albums in there. I think someone else said FtCH and TVAB mixed with SLG...It's kinda funny. That last line sounds like I'm talking about drugs... :) > Any Britney lookalike out there could write a song like "A Sorta > Fairytale". It's very annoying for me to see her so much involved in > a system where she thinks she needs such exposure. > Are you sure that's what she's going for? Did you ever think she just wanted to write what was within her? She says the songs come to her like souls, and they work through her. Personally, I doubt she was thinking to herself "How do I write a pop song?" while working on this album. You know what I mean? Also, as Richard Handal pointed out, this song is like a Trojan Horse. There's an entire section of it that was cut out for the radio version. Did you see the lyrics someone posted here? > Joni Mitchell and Kate Bush made it through the years and even their > most famous songs were always original and never resembled something > someone else could do. Tori could go this way but she doesn't. I think Tori is just doing what she wants to do. Yes, this song is quite possibly the poppiest song she has ever written, but so what? Sometimes, that's what people need. Maybe it's what she needed at this time in her life. I used to think anything being played on commercial radio, or was considered mainstream, or that wasn't experimental or didn't have indepth lyrics was "bad" music. I hated mindless, poppy crap. I still don't like it, but I can understand why people are drawn to it. And it isn't necessarily because they are mindless. It's simplification, and people need simplicity in some parts of their life. Not everything can be complex. And perhaps that's what Tori wanted. Simplicity. Anyway, we can hem and haw over what Tori might have intended or wanted, but none of us really know. So, to make a statement like she's trying to whore herself to the industry isn't really justified. I only posed the opposite side for you just in case you hadn't thought of it. > > I'm conscious that this whole rant could sound like a major flame to > most but I guess I need to hear different points of view about this. > > Topher. Understandable. And please don't take my message as a flame, but only an inquiry into your personal thought process. :) Black Dove ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:43:04 -0400 From: "camaris" Subject: Re: Poor Tori... (rant) (public lynching) > My point exactly. She doesn't need extra exposure. She could stop > releasing singles if she wanted to (unless her contract forces her > to) ... but she doesn't. Why ?... She probably wants to draw even > more attention. What could be another reason ? There's a lot to comment on, but I just want to briefly touch on this comment. It's just plain silly. The whole point of signing a contract with a major label is to gain exposure and sell records. Can I repeat that? The entire point of signing a contract with a major label is to gain exposure and sell records. When you sign a contract, you are doing so because the record label feels you could be financially beneficial for them and because you feel the record label can adequately promote your material and be financially beneficial for you. In the oh so sagacious words of Maynard: all you read and wear or see and hear on tv is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar... take care, carrie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:59:30 -0400 From: Cyndi S Crawford Subject: Re: Poor Tori... (rant) (public lynching) >whatever sticks too close to the original recording doesn't have much interest to me. Even a subtle sound or bass change, or anything can make it sound different live. That's actually why I like the "To Venus And Back" live CD.< Yes.. Bells For Her and The Waitress on the live CD of TVAB have got to be the two tracks (they all rock too tho) that just grab me and shove me into the wall, repeatedly.. *GRIN!* Sincerely, Cyndi S. Crawford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:09:30 EDT From: Dracovixen@aol.com Subject: Re: interview In a message dated 8/19/02 10:52:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org writes: > > The following was posted to an Alanis Morissette mailing list and I'm > just sending it along > > trent > Thanks so much Trent! That was a real treat. I love that woman. - -Black Dove ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:07:59 -0700 From: guapo stick Subject: tori on san francisco radio there's a setlist and photos from tori's alice appearance available now at . during the appearance, tori said that the current plan was to start the tour in november, tentatively on the east coast and be on the west coast come december. the tour will just be her, john evans and matt chamberlain. following that guest dj spot, tori also made a very brief appearance on star 101.3 . they played "a sorta fairytale" and tori reiterated the tour information, adding that it is planned to start in early november. as richard handal pointed out earlier today, this is shaping up to be an intense radio onslaught, so please keep your ears out for any additional appearances. the chances of toriamos.com or any other official source posting an itinerary is zero to nil, so it's going to take 100% groundwork by the fans to get the word out. thanks! woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:08:11 -0400 From: "by the woods" Subject: Tour news Tori said during her "Alice" interview today that the tour starts in the East and heads west. Grrrrr....... Why the hell can't she end one on the East???? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:47:28 -0400 From: Cyndi S Crawford Subject: Re: Tour news WHEN and WHERE do I start looking for tickets for the Atlanta show?????? anybody who can help, PLEASE DO! Sincerely, Cyndi S. Crawford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:36:23 -0700 From: Nicholas.Cattaneo@WellsFargo.COM Subject: RE: Tour news I dont know about Atlanta, but she was here in the city today and told that she would be in Sf in December and her tour starts over here....so maybe that gives you an idea of when she would be in your area.... Nick - -----Original Message----- From: Cyndi S Crawford [mailto:cyndi.crawford@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:47 PM To: precious-things@smoe.org Subject: Re: Tour news WHEN and WHERE do I start looking for tickets for the Atlanta show?????? anybody who can help, PLEASE DO! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:58:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: tori on san francisco radio Hello, Boy, the stuff that can happen while being stuck in car stereo hell for half the day. > there's a setlist and photos from tori's alice appearance available now > at . Cool--I'll check it out when I begin breathing normally again. > during the appearance, tori said that the current plan was to start the > tour in november, tentatively on the east coast and be on the west coast > come december. This is truly hilarious to me. They were definitely planning to come east from LA in earlier plans. To all the people who want to know what's really going on as early as possible, that obviously isn't going to be nearly as early as as you would hope. I remember back in '96 when tickets were BEING SOLD by the promoter for the Wolf Trap show here in Virginia near DC before it was even confirmed with Tori's people. We had to get in our orders by postal mail, and Tori's people wouldn't even tell us there was going to be a show there. They were keeping the fanzine folks pretty well updated with tour dates back then, but they're never gonna tell us about dates that haven't been confirmed, and sometimes promoters sell shows before they're confirmed. I think the entire music business is certifiably insane. Back in '99 I asked Tori if something she'd been speaking with me about at the end of the '98 tour was really going to happen, and she said, "*I* don't know--things change really fast around here." Ya'll are gonna have to learn to deal with it, I have to think. It's good for you; builds your sense of existentialism. ;-) (Sorry. Might as well joke about it as flip out, though.) > the tour will just be her, john evans and matt chamberlain. Way out there. > following that guest dj spot, tori also made a very brief appearance on > star 101.3 . they played "a > sorta fairytale" and tori reiterated the tour information, adding that it > is planned to start in early november. Another bare bones kind of a tour. You folks out in the boonies need to start getting your cars tuned up. You'll be doing some traveling. Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:02:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal Subject: NYC RAINN Bash info, anyone? Hi, I just went to and clicked on New York and there wasn't a single RAINN Bash listed in the entire state. I'm having a hard time believing this is accurate. I'd like to be able to tell some friends up there what's going on if there *is* anything going on. Anybody here know? Thanks, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:41:28 -0500 From: "mr zebra" Subject: Re: Poor Tori... (rant) (public lynching) > In the oh so sagacious words of Maynard: all you read and wear or see and > hear on tv is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar... And to continue, because one can never have too much Maynard, "...so shutup and buy my new record. Send more money. Fuck you, buddy." And "all you know about me is what I've sold you, dumb fuck. I sold out long before you ever heard my name." Y Kant Tori Read, anyone? "I sold my soul to make a record, dip shit, and you bought one." matthew. I'm in the army of sell out, shut up, go home, make some money, babe, when you're dead and gone. ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V7 #187 *************************************