From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V7 #57 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Wednesday, March 13 2002 Volume 07 : Number 057 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Threads That Are Golden --- ["cdrv" ] Re: Threads That Are Golden --- ["Tony Fernandes" ] Re: Thoughts on artists promoting themselves. [XXXPandora@aol.com] Re: Threads That Are Golden --- [AnotherPilot@aol.com] Tori and Marketing [ToriphileMaria@aol.com] Re: entertainment not a real job... [JNe9027355@aol.com] Re: Tori and Marketing [Thlayli ] Fw: "Goddess"--a Tori Amos based painting [badly drawn woj ] Re: Thoughts on artists promoting themselves ["Lauren DePhillips" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:40:27 -0300 From: "cdrv" Subject: Re: Threads That Are Golden --- I live in Argentina and I have never heard of Tori before until I read the Rolling Stone article TORI AMOS SECRET GARDEN. It made me want to learn more abaout her. So I bought Pele. Then Choirgirl. After that I was hooked. I needed More. To this moment I own 2 copies of each album, except Venus (I couldn4t find another), and some live bootlegs, and mp3s. Is little but I feel good, becuase you don4t have an idea HOWWWWW HARDDDDDDDD is to get a Tori Album Down here. Well, that4s my story... See ya :) Daniel - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:11 AM Subject: Threads That Are Golden --- > I've been following the marketing discussion. What I believe > would be valuable is learning where/how current fans came to > know of Tori's music and focus on those areas. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:28:22 -0800 From: "Tony Fernandes" Subject: Re: Threads That Are Golden --- Mysterilady2001 said "How did everyone else come to know Tori's music?" I walked into a sporting-goods clothing-store in the mall and saw the Silent All These Years video playing on their TV, which was propped up way up high in the corner of the store. It was 1991. I was so perplexed, entranced, whatever you want to call it... It was one of the most profound moments of my life, like when you've just met the person you know you're gonna marry, you know? Anyway, I've never experienced anything like that before or since then. I think I actually felt like she was singing to ME in that video. I made a connection with her and her music that I have never really been able to explain to anyone. It was like the missing piece of the puzzle of my life. Not one of my friends can really relate to this "thing" I have with Tori. I cry when I listen to her music...I sob uncontrollably at her concerts. Well, anyway, the first 3 lines of my message actually answered your question, which was how I came to know her music. The rest was just me getting carried away and wanting to share with all of you what KEPT me endeared to Tori. I don't think Tori is the right caliber for HUGE commerical success in terms of popularity, air play, etc. And I think if she was then I probably wouldn't have gotten hooked on her the way I did. I am a big fan of Sarah McLachlan, because I love her music. But her music is much more listener-friendly and not as....searching for the right word...touching. This is my opinion, and thus, is why I LOVE Tori and LIKE Sarah. However, Sarah is a much more recognized artist. It's just a totally different kind of "mood" of music. Tori can do all the things right she wants to when it comes to advertising and promoting her music and image. But I think that will only gain her more devoted fans (like most of us)...not casual fans. And probably not enough to give her that huge fan base like other artists. She'll always have a smaller number of fans that are truly in love with her rather than a large group of casual listeners. That's just the type of music she writes. Just my opinion. Tony ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:03:15 EST From: XXXPandora@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on artists promoting themselves. JNe9027355@aol.com writes: <> How are people supposed to come to you, supposed to get interested if they have no idea who you are??? A major part of any artist's career is promotion - - and so what? Is it wrong to try to share something that you created with others? Yes, the consumer then pays for it - but in the case of a musician - a good deal of that money is never seen by the actual artist - and in the case of all artists, including musicians, a good deal of that money is spent on materials or on the creation of art (whether its recording fees, paint, photo paper ... none of it is very cheap). And how dare you say that careers held by millions of real people are NOT real?? The arts have existed before any of the modern day careers and jobs that you would consider to be real? Careers and jobs that have all been created by modern society. Really, who are you to say this? Art predates history, predates civilized societies ... and it has been a money making career for thousands of years. <> well its pretty obvious to me that you are not an artist (or if you are, you are extremely jealous of those who can make a living from their artwork) ... most artists (the true artists who were born artists and cannot escape their destiny) create art because they have to ... they feel compelled and possesed to express themselves. It is not a choice or simply a diversion ... ok, thats about all I want to say about this ... I have to get back to my painting ... honestly :) joanne ~* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 01:25:54 EST From: AnotherPilot@aol.com Subject: Re: Threads That Are Golden --- In a message dated 3/11/2002 9:17:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mysterilady2001@cs.com writes: > I've been following the marketing discussion. What I believe > would be valuable is learning where/how current fans came to > know of Tori's music and focus on those areas. > > How did everyone else come to know Tori's music? Very good point. My first interaction with Tori's music was when I heard Caught a Lite Sneeze on the local alternative radio station. I fell instantly in love with the song and every time it came on the radio I had to turn up the volume and try my best to sing along, although I did not understand any of the lyrics. Caught a Lite Sneeze compelled me to go out and purchase Boys for Pele, which I absoutley hated. I mean I truly disliked every song on Pele, other than Sneeze and I thought Father Lucifer was neat because of the layered vocals. Because of a very odd, er, unique person in my life, I was handed Under the Pink. Having heard Boys for Pele, I was sure I was not going to like Pink but I gave it a listen anyways and, needless to say, Pink is so different from Pele and it was the kind of different I liked. After my very first listen to Baker, Baker, I knew that would be and remain my very favorite song forever. I was drawn to the rest of Pink and then I gave Pele another listen and very, very gradually I appreaciated and respected every song that album (expect for Professional Widow - still am not a fan of that) as well. So I suppose my first run in with Tori was through radio *and* word of mouth. If that friend of mine had never given me Pink I know I would never have been an Ears with Feet. Til the Chicken..., Michael *~I'm Much Stronger Than You Know...Sometimes I'm Not Afraid To Let It Show*~ - --Tori Amos - Cool On Your Island-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 01:51:58 EST From: ToriphileMaria@aol.com Subject: Tori and Marketing I've been trying to keep abreast of this marketing discussion... and perhaps I have missed something. Correct me if Im wrong, but this whole discussion has been about widening her fanbase/increasing her popularity. However, aside from making Tori and her new label more money, why in the world do some of you favor a more mainstream Tori? Perhaps Im just being selfish, but part of Tori's appeal to me is that she isn't so popular. Tori has said herself she is anchovies-- an aquired taste, an as such, I think her appeal and popularity is self-limiting. Again, I think this is a good reason, for many selfish reasons. Don't get me wrong, I love to share Tori's music w/ those that appreciate her music, and my fecundity in the Tori-Boot community attests to this. However, I personally am uninterested in seeing Tori's popularity grow. In fact, it would seem that to do so, she would have to do a great deal of selling out; the fact that Tori has stayed true to herself (as much as she can given the demands of Atlantic or any label she joins) is one of the things I most respect about her and her music. So Im wondering, why some of you are proponents of increasing her markebility and widening her audience? ~~Maria Wanna Trade? http://www.auburn.edu/~aguirmg ******************************************************** "And right there, for a minute, I knew you so well." - Tori Amos ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 02:16:10 EST From: JNe9027355@aol.com Subject: Re: entertainment not a real job... In a message dated 3/11/02 10:22:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org writes: > I hope you're being sarcastic on this. > Nope, not at all. And obviously, from the rest of your commentary, you've missed my base point entirely on this issue, one that i don't care to reiterate it either. so till this issue arises sometime again, off in the blue, i am me and u r u. > Still others are making political and social > statements, vying for the people's awareness, such as Marilyn Manson, Rage > Against the Machine, and Ani DiFranco, and may even give people the > incentive > to become more active in society, to even give them a sense of purpose. These people are entertainers, AS WELL as social commentators. There's a distinct difference. > Even if you have food, shelter, all that, if you're bored all the time, or > if > you never do anything fun, or if you feel you really have nothing to live > for > except working, eating, sitting, whatever...then what's the point? If > there's > nothing there to take you away from your problems, just as a temporary > release, you eventually will go insane. Again, entertainment can be anything --this is why i think it's stupid to declare it a craft. You don't need a guy doing acrobats or a singer singing to stay sane. Looking at a blade of grass flicking in light is entertainment. If you have problems, well you need to FIX THEM to get over it. You don't need to pay for a movie to mute them. That's why this world is so ass backwards. Everyone slacks off when it comes to facing the nitty-gritty, everyone turns to their beloved media to get the next fix of the Coming Distraction Attractions, while some kid in Calcutta starves and suffices in confusion becuz everyone's on a break from reality and too DISTRACTED to help him. > So, the world may not be revolving around making the careers of > entertainers, > but entertainment certainly is a REAL job. > Black Dove No, it's not. To do it as a profession is little more than an excuse to go on a see-me trip. Moreover, the fact that entertainment jobs don't have set wages, set social rules, set anything, makes this all the more true how fake it is. Regarding one ent. job, i think Kate Hepburn, yea of all people, summed it up best.. "Acting is the most minor of gifts and not a very classy way to earn a living...let's not forget they don't give a Nobel Prize for it, and Shirley Temple was doing it perfectly at age 4." This is my sentiment on most divisions of show biz. - -AJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:38:17 -0500 From: Thlayli Subject: Re: Tori and Marketing ToriphileMaria@aol.com wrote: > I've been trying to keep abreast of this marketing discussion... and >perhaps I have missed something. Correct me if Im wrong, but this whole >discussion has been about widening her fanbase/increasing her popularity. >However, aside from making Tori and her new label more money, why in the >world do some of you favor a more mainstream Tori? Isn't that enough? Why would you want her to *not* get rich? > Perhaps Im just being >selfish, but part of Tori's appeal to me is that she isn't so popular. Tori >has said herself she is anchovies-- an aquired taste, an as such, I think her >appeal and popularity is self-limiting. Again, I think this is a good reason, >for many selfish reasons. Besides being selfish, that attitude is snobbish. People who "get" Tori aren't superior to people who don't. >I personally am uninterested in seeing Tori's popularity grow. >In fact, it would seem that to do so, she would have to do a great deal of >selling out; the fact that Tori has stayed true to herself (as much as she >can given the demands of Atlantic or any label she joins) is one of the >things I most respect about her and her music. It could also be said that she tried selling out once, and it didn't work. So let's not be giving her *too much* credit for standing on principle.... >So Im wondering, why some of >you are proponents of increasing her markebility and widening her audience? I really don't care who else likes the music I like. However, it would be a good thing if I heard Tori on Top 40 radio and saw her on MTV, because it would make Top 40 radio and MTV better. - -- Thlayli thlayli23x@att.net http://www.geocities.com/~thlayli23x/home.html "Excuse me, but can I be you for a while?" - T. Amos "You be me for a while, and I'll be you." - P. Westerberg "Why can't I be you?" - R. Smith "You're just jealous 'cause you can't be me." - M. Ciccone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:12:58 -0500 (EST) From: badly drawn woj Subject: Fw: "Goddess"--a Tori Amos based painting flashyred1@aol.comnospam (Katherina) writes in alt.fan.tori-amos (news:20020311113336.04007.00000579@mb-bj.aol.com): - -= BEGIN forwarded message =- Subject: "Goddess"--a Tori Amos based painting From: flashyred1@aol.comnospam (Katherina) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tori-amos Date: 11 Mar 2002 16:33:36 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com "Goddess," a painting based on the lovely Tori Amos, is available for viewing at the following web address: http://members.aol.com/Yuncax1/art3.html If you like what you see, art posters both signed and unsigned are available for purchase! Check out the details at: http://members.aol.com/Katherina1/tori.html Thanks for your interest! - -- Katherina - -= END forwarded message =- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:00:11 From: "Lauren DePhillips" Subject: Re: Thoughts on artists promoting themselves >I've been following the marketing discussion. What I believe >would be valuable is learning where/how current fans came to >know of Tori's music and focus on those areas. I actually first got "into" Tori in 96 when she was promoting Boys for Pele. I remember I had been vaguely aware of who she was before that but had never really listened to any of her music. Then, I saw an interview an MTV where she was talking about throwing boys into volcanoes and the like and after that I went out to buy the album and it amazed me. BFP had so many pieces, it was so multifaceted. It's still my favorite Tori album - it can mean so many different things to different people at different times. It's realy like a journey. Anyway, I don't have any problem with artists promoting their work. As long as they feel the product is good, then why should anyone have a problem with promoting it. No one wants to put out an album into a void and get no response at all. If you don't promote an album, then how are people going to "find" it. If Tori hadn't been promoting BFP on MTV I probably wouldn't have become interested in her...or at least it would have taken a much longer time. Word of mouth can definitely be a much more effective tool than straight out commercial advertising (like billboards,etc.) but by promoting their album on a wide audience artists can reach those who wouldn't have otherwise "found" their music. I think the problem with mainstream shows and etc. is that they almost force the artist to talk in 15 sec soundbytes which make them sound like an infomercial spokesman. In these situations Tori can sometimes be fairly offputting - she's not a pro at talkshow banter, she actually likes to talk to people. There's nothing wrong with Tori wanting to promote her music but because she isn't a cookie cutter artist it may be a little harder to do that and I think in her case it not an issue of reaching the largest possible audience but reaching the right audience with more in-depth interviews, articles, and things of that nature. Sorry if I got too much off on a rant. There has been so much talk about this artist promoting themselves thing that I wanted to respond. - --Lauren lauren15@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/lilya8 ********************** "The way I see, I was really fortunate to get a serious head dunking when I was baptized. When you stay in the water a little longer with your head pushed down, you can begin to see what's on the bottom of the sea." *********************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:18:51 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: Tori and Marketing Maria pondered: > However, aside from making Tori and her new label more money, why in the > world do some of you favor a more mainstream Tori? Perhaps Im just > being selfish, but part of Tori's appeal to me is that she isn't so > popular. This is something I could never understand. If you crank up your stereo with certain music in your home, what possible difference could it make to you how many other people in *their* homes are listening to the same thing? I do believe it is correct to say Tori will never be as popular as Madonna was in the mid-eighties, but I see no harm to any of her current EWF (other than making concert tickets harder to come by and/or forcing her to play larger venues), that another several-hundred-thousand people might come to appreciate and purchase her music. Part of my interest is what I call the "sunset" effect. If I'm looking at an amazing sunset, I'm going to wish someone else were around to share it with. So, while it's possible that one could play the music on one's home or car stereo and remain unconcerned with how many other people are doing the same thing, I get something out of seeing other people appreciate it. That's one thing I get out of being on the lists to discuss the music--now for 8 1/2 years. Before I got online, the only person I knew of who liked Tori's music was my friend who so generously shared it with me in the first place. Hasn't everyone here at one time or another bought a recording, loved it, and then loaned it to a friend thinking they would also love it? It's really no different than that. I think it raises the bar of what popular music can be, and in this age of over-produced music made in what seem to be McDonald's Hamburgers' own recording studios and sung by "singers" who can't even hit notes on pitch, I'm definitely all for that. More than this, I believe the music is, on its own merits, important. As opposed to what some seem to believe about it--that it helps people push their problems aside and *not* deal with them--I very well know the opposite to be true. Leaving aside for the moment the variety of deeply personal situations that people go through which Tori investigates and which sometimes prompt people likewise to investigate similar situations in their own lives, in case you didn't see it for yourself, read the transcript of the 15 February 1999 U.S. ABC television network news magazine story on the program 20/20 titled "Chasing Away the Demons," which was about the effects Tori's song Me and a Gun has had on thousands of people. I'll briefly quote the narration: So many rape victims suffer severe psychological repercussions. They become distracted, depressed, feel like they're going crazy. It can be so overwhelming that many rape victims don't deal with the rape at all. They tuck it away. And for those women, doctors says it takes a trigger to bring the rape back to the surface. It can be an emotional event a song, a book or a movie. Only then can the women reach out, start talking about the rape and finally deal with the trauma. [I want to interject that it isn't just women.] Anyone who ever attended a Tori Amos concert and found themselves sitting near someone who was sobbing uncontrollably during Gun knows the effect that song has on some people. One needn't go through this themself to understand this. I'll expand on why I feel the music is important. People get in ruts with their daily lives. It's easy to get sucked into a lifestyle that seems to allow for few experiences outside of waking up, going to work or school, coming home, preparing and eating dinner; and then, physically, emotionally, and spiritually exhausted and numbed from one's long commute and trying day, settling in for an evening of cookie-cutter television before going to bed, only to wake up the next day and repeat the entire process over again day after endless day. People get used to and accept lifestyles like this. It's all too easy to lose one's humanity and to come to treat one's fellow humans as nothing more than lumpy obstacles in the way of getting what we want; what with traffic jams, long lines at the grocery, etc. This is a self-perpetuating downward spiral. I'm in favor of anything that can provide a rare opportunity for my fellow human beings to have an authentic experience. In my life, Tori has consistently provided opportunities for me to have them, but there are many other ways of getting that from other things. It depends largely on how one takes something. One might be able to have an authentic experience from watching a travel program, or riding a horse, or getting a piercing. I'm adamant thinking that the more people have a chance to feel things rather than have their psyches pounded until they fit into neat little boxes they're then encouraged to store on the shelf, that it's good for all of us. Becoming in tune with Tori's music isn't going to save the world from itself, but I see it being one dish in the buffet that's available from which people can find something that means something to them; something through which they can get back in touch with who they are deep down. If a person can connect with their deeper self, it's more likely that the overall level of humanity in the way people treat one another might increase just a little bit. I realize some of you surely think I'm full of crap, but I can live with that. I think you're cutting yourself off from some good stuff. Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. Every civilizing step in history has been ridiculed as 'sentimental', 'impractical', or 'womanish', etc., by those whose fun, profit or convenience was at stake. --Joan Gilbert (1931- ) ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V7 #57 ************************************