From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V6 #168 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Thursday, September 13 2001 Volume 06 : Number 168 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: my $1 [ToriLiscious@cs.com] Re: my $1 [Shana ] Re: my $1 [XXXPandora@aol.com] thanks for being here ["Jonathan & Melanie" ] Re: dallas show - bronco bowl seating chart help ["Jaxson Jackson" ] Re: my $1 [ToRiGLosS@aol.com] Re: my $1 [GregR991@aol.com] Re: my $1 [SatelliteNo2@aol.com] Re: my $1 [SatelliteNo2@aol.com] ny dc tragedy [Audrina Parker ] Re: my $1 [Dennis ] Re: Re: my $1 [nadyne@mindspring.com] Re: my $1 [Shana ] RE: my $1 ["Pete Lambert" ] off-topic [Abbe J Cohen ] question about pre-sale tickets [WWJD14054@aol.com] Re: my $1 [ToriLiscious@cs.com] DALLAS TIX [ToriLiscious@cs.com] Re: my $1 [SatelliteNo2@aol.com] Re: ny dc tragedy [SatelliteNo2@aol.com] Re: my $1 [violet@torithoughts.org] Re: my $1 [Richard Handal ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:48:01 EDT From: ToriLiscious@cs.com Subject: Re: my $1 <> OH I KNOW! there were 3??(don't quote me) hijackers on any one plane, and the least amount of passengers on one plane was 45.. hmmm... 3 against 45.. now, i heard that the hijacker threatened the people with a bomb. but COME ON. if they start stabbing people, then rush into the cockpit, and you hear screaming, what do you think's gonna happen? Do you really want to take the risk and see where this guy wants to fly you, or even if he CAN fly?? i say- RUSH THEM! pretend it's a TOOL concert, for god's sake, and rush the stage. Those bouncers can't even stop you. god, i'm sorry if i've offended anyone, but that quote up there just announced out loud what's been on my mind since this started. Micah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:06:56 -0400 From: Shana Subject: Re: my $1 SatelliteNo2@aol.com wrote: >I still can't > understand why just about all of those people on the hijacked planes just > stood there and waited to die. Only about three actually tried to stop them. No one knows yet because the recording that has been recovered has not yet been released (to my knowledge). However, i think that when they are we will find terrorists killing pilots, taking over the ship and telling passengers that if they don't interfere, they may live. Or they killed everybody on the plane. I don't see why they would go, "everyone sit down and shut up. We're going to fly into the WTC!". That scenario makes no sense to me so I doubt the passengers knew what the purpose of these hijackings was until it was too late (if they weren't already dead at that point). Again, just using logic...no evidence to back it up. Shana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:17:50 EDT From: XXXPandora@aol.com Subject: Re: my $1 . I still can't understand why just about all of those people on the hijacked planes just stood there and waited to die. Only about three actually tried to stop them. I also felt the same way ... until my boyfriend explained to me that maybe they didn't know they were going to die ... typically when a plane is hijacked, the people who are hijacking the plane do not intend to crash it, they usually take it to some destination (like their home country or whatever) and make demands. We really don't know what went on in those planes and until we do, we can't really make assumptions or say that they should've done something ... because its very possible that the people had no idea what the terrorists were planning. After realizing that, I wonder how those three men knew what was going on or even if they did ... and I am greatly touched by their courage, as well as by the courage of all of the people all over the country who are helping. kisses, joanne~* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:48:47 -0500 From: "Jonathan & Melanie" Subject: thanks for being here At this time of great sorrow for the U.S., it is good to know we have friends and family like you. We send good thoughts your way. Please pray for those whose lives were even more affected than ours by Tuesday's atrocities. Jonathan, Melanie & Ian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:42:02 -0500 From: "Jaxson Jackson" Subject: Re: dallas show - bronco bowl seating chart help dallas toriphile here... I am so freakin pissed, aside from the world events, startickets is just as bad as ticketmaster..i couldn't even access the site, not only being unable to access the site, i also was called and asked what was going on and could i just buy them over the phone presale...the guy was like we are having technical difficulties and you just have to keep trying...i tried again 1 hour later and the site isn't even available... this is rediculous My life is a joke and I'm still waiting for the punchline.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:26:17 EDT From: GregR991@aol.com Subject: Re: my $1 People you have to understand. Most hijackings end with the plane being flown to some far off country and the passangers eventuly released. Most did not know that the plane was going to be flown into a bulding. I am sure if they had they would have fought back like the people on board the penn plane. I don't think that something like that can happen again. Now that we are awake I am sure if there is a next time people will fight back. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:27:07 -0700 From: violet@torithoughts.org Subject: Re: my $1 SatelliteNo2@aol.com wrote: ><< how is killing more people justice? >> > >Because they're going to kill all of us if we don't get them first. Common >sense. That's not common sense. Think about it. First of all, there are many more of them than there are of us. Secondly, we cannot eradicate an entire culture. Particularly not just because we disagree with their values and beliefs. If we even attempted to do this, we would be no better than they are. We would be no better than Hitler. All we'd end up doing is pissing them off even more and we'd find ourselves targetted even worse than we already are. And as we all realise by now, they absolutely do have ways in. We are not untouchable. The only way we can reach any kind of peace is to stop being so arrogant and respect their space and quit poking them with sticks. We have got to figure out a way to work with them and help bring them into the modern day and age instead of pushing them around and keeping them down. If working with them is not possible, and that may well be the case because their resentment and hatred of us is so high, then we at least must be able to mutually agree to disagree and maintain a respectful distance from each other. We are being sent a message: the United States cannot continue to act like it owns the entire world, because it does not. That's the simple truth. No matter what we may want to think, no matter how many times we hoot and holler and yell "We're number one!", we are NOT the only people in the world with power to destroy and trample and crush. We may be strong, we may have great power and many allies, but we do not OWN these other countries and we don't have the right to tell other cultures how to behave or what to believe. We have enough trouble keeping from bossing each other around over these things here at home. Let's keep our noses out of the neighbors' back yard and deal with our own crap. What they did to us on Tuesday ... we've been doing that to them for YEARS. If we think about the outrage our country is feeling now in terms of retaliation, how much more rage must they have felt as a people? And for how much longer? It's sort of surprising that they didn't lash out at us this badly before now. Someone was talking to me about this just this morning and he said, "You know why we won against the British when we came over to this country? We reinvented the rules of war. There were so many more of them and we should have been no match for them, but we won, and it was all because we invented entirely new rules and fought according to those. And that's what's happening now. They're reinventing the rules." Violet xoxox . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . Are you a Toriphile? Are you strange? New for 2001 from ToriThoughts: the Strange Little Toriphile shirt! Order now. http://www.torithoughts.org/projects/sltshirts.html Order deadline: Monday, September 24th. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:39:05 -0400 From: strange little woj Subject: a gentle reminder folks, while precious-things is a moderated tori amos forum, the recent events are much more important than worrying about whether or not posts are on topic. so, i haven't really been moderating the list in the usual way since tuesday. thankfully, no one has complained about this (unlike some other lists i'm on) and i imagine, as things settle down, that talk of the tragedy will settle down as well. so, if the off-topicness of the list of late does disturb you, please be patient and precious-things will, sooner or later, return "normal programming". one request though: please do be gentle when discussing this subject. a lot of us are very emotional right now -- some have lost loved ones, some have lost a sense of security, and all of us have lost something. i've seen, as i'm sure many of you have as well, discussions and debate of the attack turn ugly elsewhere. please don't let that happen here. messages of that sort will not be and, in fact, already have not been, approved. thanks, woj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:27:42 EDT From: ToRiGLosS@aol.com Subject: Re: my $1 Who are you referring to as "us" and "them"?? (:7.8((*7.8 8.7*()8.7:) +.707. AmY.707.; (8.7:(8.7(* *(7.8):7.8) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:53:38 EDT From: GregR991@aol.com Subject: Re: my $1 This it for Violet First of all there are not more of them then us. It is only a small fraction that carries out this kind of action. Second, if we don't strike back they will attack again. Third, you can not compare a poeple defending there homeland with hitler, even if it is us "arrgont" americians. You act as if all bad in the world was commitied why a white anglo saxon. As for respect, The United States is the most tolerant nation on the face of the earth. Where else can someone come into a country, get Americans to train them and then board a flight to fly it into a bulding. You act as if the United States fluants in military power at will. We have be very restraintful. Name one invasion of conquest we have undertaken in the last 100 years. Every war we fight, we fight to perserve democarcy and our intrestes. We won aginst the British because they were to busy fighting aginst the French to bother with us. Learn you history before you spew. Violet you make me sick defending the action of a few mad men tring to convince us that we some how deserve it. The fanatics hate us because we are richer and stronger then them and because we support iseral. Are you telling me that Jews deserve a homeland less then the Palestines? My last point is that this is a list to dicuess tori and not post our political views but you ignorance is just so shameful I could not help it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:30:41 EDT From: SatelliteNo2@aol.com Subject: Re: my $1 In a message dated 9/13/01 2:55:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, violet@torithoughts.org writes: << Secondly, we cannot eradicate an entire culture. Particularly not just because we disagree with their values and beliefs. If we even attempted to do this, we would be no better than they are. We would be no better than Hitler. >> Don't you realize that after a while if we continue to let everything slip and shrug it off with, "oh, that's just their culture and we have no right to judge," that everything will turn into chaos. People will do as they please with no regard for anyone else and there will be no more order at all! And I don't respect any values of people who want to kill us all. I know that maybe not all of them want to kill us, but it would not particularly upset me much if the Palestinians all suddenly died. It's a shame that anyone should have to feel this way about other human beings, but they are evil. They are dancing around in the streets laughing and having a grand old time, and happy that so many of us have died. That is pure evil. << but we do not OWN these other countries and we don't have the right to tell other cultures how to behave or what to believe. We have enough trouble keeping from bossing each other around over these things here at home. Let's keep our noses out of the neighbors' back yard and deal with our own crap. >> This is our crap! They've killed a good number of Americans. << All we'd end up doing is pissing them off even more and we'd find ourselves targeted even worse than we already are. >> Are you going to spend your entire life in fear that you're going to piss someone off? << The only way we can reach any kind of peace is to stop being so arrogant and respect their space and quit poking them with sticks. >> Respect their space? They crashed two planes into the World Trade Center. They killed nearly 20,000 people. << and that may well be the case because their resentment and hatred of us is so high, then we at least must be able to mutually agree to disagree and maintain a respectful distance from each other. >> Well, I think we've seen that they cannot live peacefully with anyone. They just crashed a plane into a major American landmark and 20,000 people have died because of it. They've caused damage that will take years to fix. << What they did to us on Tuesday ... we've been doing that to them for YEARS. If we think about the outrage our country is feeling now in terms of retaliation, how much more rage must they have felt as a people? And for how much longer? It's sort of surprising that they didn't lash out at us this badly before now. >> We've been killing them? They all kill each other everyday. They throw rocks at each other like heathens everyday and spend their entire lives hating others because of their religion. Not one of them can go one day without killing someone or lashing out. And to think, for thousands of years, they've all been fighting over a strip of desert. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:38:45 EDT From: SatelliteNo2@aol.com Subject: Re: my $1 In a message dated 9/13/01 4:17:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, XXXPandora writes: << I wonder how those three men knew what was going on or even if they did ... and I am greatly touched by their courage >> Because they were probably the only ones paying any attention. Most others were too busy talking on their cellphones and waiting to die. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:30:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Audrina Parker Subject: ny dc tragedy I would like to say something. I don't know if they are any Muslims on this list but for those who are not, please dont take your anger and hurt and feelings out on the muslims you see. They aren't showing this on the news, but Muslims that are living in America are being treated very cruelly. I heard that one Muslim women got run over by a car. Please don't hurt more people than have to. And if you have hatred against the Islamic religion please dont. It is the same as christianity just different way of putting it in to a book. please pass this on to other mailing lists if you can and get the word out thanks your fellow toriphile __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:52:00 -0400 From: Dennis Subject: Re: my $1 violet@torithoughts.org wrote: > That's not common sense. Think about it. First of all, there are many > more of them than there are of us. Secondly, we cannot eradicate an entire > culture. Particularly not just because we disagree with their values and > beliefs. If we even attempted to do this, we would be no better than they > are. We would be no better than Hitler. > > All we'd end up doing is pissing them off even more and we'd find ourselves > targetted even worse than we already are. And as we all realise by now, > they absolutely do have ways in. We are not untouchable. > > The only way we can reach any kind of peace is to stop being so arrogant > and respect their space and quit poking them with sticks. We have got to > figure out a way to work with them and help bring them into the modern day > and age instead of pushing them around and keeping them down. If working > with them is not possible, and that may well be the case because their > resentment and hatred of us is so high, then we at least must be able to > mutually agree to disagree and maintain a respectful distance from each > other. > > We are being sent a message: the United States cannot continue to act like > it owns the entire world, because it does not. That's the simple truth. > No matter what we may want to think, no matter how many times we hoot and > holler and yell "We're number one!", we are NOT the only people in the > world with power to destroy and trample and crush. We may be strong, we > may have great power and many allies, but we do not OWN these other > countries and we don't have the right to tell other cultures how to behave > or what to believe. We have enough trouble keeping from bossing each other > around over these things here at home. Let's keep our noses out of the > neighbors' back yard and deal with our own crap. > > What they did to us on Tuesday ... we've been doing that to them for YEARS. > If we think about the outrage our country is feeling now in terms of > retaliation, how much more rage must they have felt as a people? And for > how much longer? It's sort of surprising that they didn't lash out at us > this badly before now. what a bunch of hippy bullshit. "What they did to us on Tuesday ... we've been doing that to them for YEARS." are you for real? when has the United States terrorized like this? what did I miss? thank god most Americans and our leaders don't think along these lines with this type of logic. that fuck Bin Laden and whatever country is working with him need to be taken out. the end. Afghanistan, possibly Iraq. whoever supported and worked with him have to be taken out. He should have been taken care of in '98 after what happened to the US Embassy building in Africa. This isn't like '93 when 6 people got killed at the WTC. There are more than 4700 people missing in NYC and presumed dead. 100 from the Pentagon and another 200 from the four planes. We're talking more than 5000 innocent American civilians...dead. So we should sit back with our fingers up our asses and just accept it and move on? Yeah, might happen. If action isn't taken, what's next? A chemical weapon is used and an entire state or a couple of states get wiped out? The people responsible need to be held accountable and will be. time to bring it. Time to tie up a lot of loose ends. I hope no one who lost a loved one at the WTC, the Pentagon, or on any one of the four hijacked planes reads what you wrote. Me, it just annoys, but I would think that it would disgust anyone who lost someone they cared about. You are entitled to your opinion. I'm not saying you're not. I'm just disagreeing with it. "There will be a glabal assault against terrorism" - Colin Powell nice Dennis - -- "melody walks through the door and memory flies out the window" - k. moore my page- http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/dos/981/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:04:08 -0400 From: nadyne@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re: my $1 SatelliteNo2@aol.com wrote: [snip] > They are dancing around in the streets laughing and having a grand > old time, and happy that so many of us have died. That is pure > evil. Yes, the actions of those individuals are evil. However, the actions of those individuals do not represent the actions of all Muslims or all Palestinians. The closest parallel from American history that I can come up with immediately would be during the 60s. Some white Americans stoned blank Americans who were just trying to attend school, attend university, go to work. Should all white Americans be killed because of the actions of a few morons? We should not judge all members of a faith or country based on the highly-publicised actions of a small handful. Watch the video footage very carefully. By my counts, I can only see 20 or 30 people who are actually celebrating. There is talk that there were other celebrations, but all indications appear that they were small pockets of such celebration. It was not the whole country celebrating. The idea that all Palestinians should cease to exist because of these acts of terrorism is nothing short of terrorism itself. /nm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:05:36 -0400 From: Shana Subject: Re: my $1 violet@torithoughts.org wrote: > That's not common sense. Think about it. First of all, there are many > more of them than there are of us. Secondly, we cannot eradicate an entire > culture. Particularly not just because we disagree with their values and > beliefs. If we even attempted to do this, we would be no better than they > are. We would be no better than Hitler. I have a REALLY big problem with that little analogy. No matter how horrible bombing a country is, you cannot even begin to compare it to the HORRORS that were brought on during the Holocaust. Torture, scientific experiments, babies used as target practice, huge gang rapes, being starved to death, Jewish women who had not even shown their hair to any man but their fathers forced to strip amidst hundreds of men, gold teeth being stolen right out of people's mouths, people being burned alive in crematoriums...not to mention ALL of these things being done to please a madman...please do not compare these things. I know I am probably being harsh with you and I apologize for that. I only want to stress that nothing in the history of the world has been as disgusting and inhumane as the Holocaust, though some things have come close. Just the sheer amount of people that died is staggering. Everyone cites the 6 million Jews number, but hardly anyone ever talks about how many Blacks, Gays and soldiers were killed. 26 million Russian soldiers alone died fighting the Nazi regime. Shana ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:06:00 +0100 From: "Pete Lambert" Subject: RE: my $1 > Because they were probably the only ones paying any attention. > Most others > were too busy talking on their cellphones and waiting to die. your offensive drivel has now gone way off the scale. please save these obscene victim-hating rants until you find somewhere they might be appreciated. that is not here. pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:18:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Abbe J Cohen Subject: off-topic Ok, folks, there are people here from a lot of different faiths; a lot of different homelands; a lot of different political leanings. (and, sadly, with a lot of different levels of awareness of world events, especially those prior to this week...) Some of us are going to be more in favor of peace, and some of us aren't. But please, folks, try to get a little bit educated about what you say before you say it. I'm saddened to hear people saying that they wouldn't be sad if every Palestinian died. How does that make us any better than the terrorists who would be happy if every American died?? We don't even currently suspect Palestinians of being involved in this attack! The only thing out there condeming the palestinians is that video footage of some palestinians dancing in the street. I've seen the video footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets that some news networks aired - but think for a moment about the goals of these news networks, and some of the things they've aired before just for shock value or to further a particular agenda. We don't know what they were actually celebrating in response to - we don't even know that that footage was really filmed that day. I've heard that what they were celebrating was an announcement - purely propagandic and utterly false, to be sure - that this turn of events meant that America would start listening to them. Not that they were standing in the streets watching , but that someone told them that now there might be hope that for peace in the middle east. A really dumb thing to say, maybe, but not the same thing as dancing in the streets because they'd seen a bad thing happen to americans, either. I'm an American Jew, and I hope someday to visit Israel for its religious and historical significance to the Jewish people... I hope that these things won't be destroyed by the violence there. I believe in the right of Jews to live there. I also happen to believe in the right of Arabs and of Christians to live there - it's a holy place to all three religions, and in relatively recent history all of them have lived there. The root of the argument isn't just who gets to live where, it's who gets to *govern* where, and how to deal with the fact that there's a lot of hatred on all sides. That hatred consists of some people who *do* want to see every Arab dead, people who *do* want to see every Jew dead, as well as people who think, perhaps more innocently but still insidiously, that Jews are untrustworthy or that Arabs or untrustworthy or even that they're ok but they still won't contemplate giving them political power. I think it creates a problem that's very hard to solve. but whether we're talking about peace in the middle east or peace here at home in the light of these terrorist attacks, the important thing is that hating and blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few is *not* going to help. Violet called out for peace, and for not letting our desire for vengeance send us off against those who are as much innocent civilians as those who perished in the World Trade Center. I support her wishes and hope that our leaders are acting similarly. - --Abbe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:26:57 EDT From: WWJD14054@aol.com Subject: question about pre-sale tickets i have a question about presale tickets, and i hope someone can answer me. during pre-sales, do they only take tickets for a certain section of the venue? because it seems to me, that whenever i am clicking to get some tickets for one of the tori shows that i want to go to, it keeps coming up in the same section. i am contemplating whether or not to wait till they go on sale to the public to get seats. but see, i don't know whether they are just taking tickets for the whole venue, and i am afraid if they are, that when they go on sale to the public that there will be no seats left. i had checked tickets.com earlier, and they came up in the same section. now i am checking again, and it says there are no longer seats available in that section. does this mean there is no more seats available PERIOD or that there are no more tickets that were given to the pre-sale? i MUST SEE TORI!! and i really want good seats, but i'm just afraid they will all go away in the pre-sale. sorry, i know i am being very irrational right now. so if anyone knows how i can solve my delema, please let me know. - -a tori fan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:43:24 EDT From: ToriLiscious@cs.com Subject: Re: my $1 <> Where does that fact come from? We overpower any army in the world. <> Of course not. What we are saying is, we want Osama bin Laden. He is the "ringleader" of this terrorist organization. BUT, if you, Afghanistan, are going to harbour him and keep hiding him from us, we'll kick your ass to get to him. We don't want to kill a country. Osama is wealthy enough to sponsor any attack, as we have seen. He is intelligent enough to take the time to comb through every detail so that we will be unaware of his activities. We go after Drug Cartel Ringleaders, so why is this any different? Except, of course, for the fact that this time, the Ringleader has successfully thought out an operation which killed thousands of us. <> we don't have the right to tell them that the certain few of them that decide to mass murder americans cannot do that? We are not killing or bossing around this culture. These terrorists are like regular gangs in the U.S. You can't say "Some Crips are Americans, therefore all Americans are Crips." Therefore, you can't say that about Arab people and their culture. Their 'culture' is not doing this to us. A gang that happens to be from there happens to be doing it. <> What attacks have we made on Afghanistan? Name one. It is horrible that this has happened. And it is great that we all have opinions. I was not "personally" affected by this, i mean, I've had nobody I love lost in this tragedy. But, I cannot say that this has not hurt me. When I read Violet's post, I got so freaking mad, as I'm sure a lot of you did. So I can't even imagine how the people that are personally attached to the situation must feel when that email came into their mailbox. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. But, let's face it. That opinion is pretty offensive, and in light of everyone involved, maybe it should have waited until this thing blew over for just the courtesy of the people with personal ties to the attack. It's okay to have an offensive opinion, I have an offensive opinion about everything, but everything has a time and a place. In light of the tragedy, maybe we should quit talking about this. I know Woj has been so great to let us talk about this; we've been able to have a discussion, get our thoughts out there. I know for a lot of you, this is kinda like therapy. I didn't think any opinion would really piss me off, but I was wrong. I'm sorry Violet, but you had to expect this backlash.Was that what you were looking for? Micah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:18:16 EDT From: ToriLiscious@cs.com Subject: DALLAS TIX I have a rant! (Who woulda guessed?) I have been online, trying to get Dallas tix ALL DAY. I took a break at about 1pm, but was back online at 3pm. I was not able to get the site until about 15 MINUTES AGO. When I tried to get seats, the good seats WERE GONE. ALL OF THEM. THE WHOLE FLOOR SEATING IS GONE. The best available seating is in secion K, which is on the middle level (similar to a mezzanine), row FREAKING E. Not only am I stuck in the freaking mezzanine, but K is not even in the middle. Okay, so I should pay more for better tickets. I'm already having to shell out $50 for this concert. I know it's Tori, but I've paid less than this to see Janet Jackson and the Rolling Stones, and for better seats. Sell your tickets, then buy better ones from an agency. Do you know how much they charge? A freakin Lot. I don't have that kind of money. I have never had seats this bad. Even in concerts where I had to call long distance to get tickets and it took me an hour to get a ringing sound. THIS IS BULLSHIT. When I talked to Star Tickets and Bronco Bowl yesterday, before tix went on sale (I was crazy about this, I was so scared I was going to get crappy seats), they BOTH told me that there were NO SEATS on the floor, that it was all GENERAL ADMISSION. Those were the expensive tickets. Now, today, when I call because the only seats I can score are crappy ones, they both tell me that, no, I don't know who told you that, of course there are seats on the floor. Those are the Reserved seats, and those are the expensive ones. I swear to freaking god, this sucks. I'm going to drive 5 hours to see Tori through some binoculars. And, it just figures, my dog just chewed up my glasses and in no way will I be able to pay for another pair, so I'm going to be freaking blind, too. I JUST WANT TO FREAKING SCREAM! THIS TOTALLY SUCKS! I know all this tragedy is going on, and I'm so sorry. It all sucks. But, right here, right now, the fact that the best seats I can afford are 2 football fields away, totally sucks. There's my rant. Sorry. Micah p.s. there are a couple of you trying to get dallas tix- how'd you do? have any extra tix? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:25:17 EDT From: SatelliteNo2@aol.com Subject: Re: my $1 In a message dated 9/13/01 7:04:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nadyne@mindspring.com writes: << The closest parallel from American history that I can come up with immediately would be during the 60s. Some white Americans stoned blank Americans who were just trying to attend school, attend university, go to work. Should all white Americans be killed because of the actions of a few morons? >> Yes, I know what you mean. It's just that when I see them dancing around in the street like that, it almost seems like it's all of them. But it's not. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:27:19 EDT From: SatelliteNo2@aol.com Subject: Re: ny dc tragedy In a message dated 9/13/01 6:49:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, silverdadaartist@yahoo.com writes: << They aren't showing this on the news, but Muslims that are living in America are being treated very cruelly. I heard that one Muslim women got run over by a car. Please don't hurt more people than have to. And if you have hatred >> Yes, they are showing it on the news. They seem to make it a bigger point of not discriminating against anyone than ensuring that all of us are safe first. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:16:25 -0700 From: violet@torithoughts.org Subject: Re: my $1 Some folks appear to have misunderstood or misread what I wrote to PT earlier today. This makes me think I was not clear enough about what I was trying to say. I did not say -- am not saying -- that we should not defend ourselves. I was speaking in terms of the solution I've heard repeated most often in the past few days, which is to "go and kill them all, wipe them out, eradicate them." (Which was not, to my knowledge, specifically said by anyone here.) And I am saying that's not the answer. I also don't believe this is what our government will try to do, because I believe they know it is not the answer. As far as the U.S. government is concerned, I believe they will try to go after the individuals that are involved rather than a wholesale bombing of a country or countries. This is my hope, anyway. One of the people who responded to what I wrote said: ><own crap. >> > > This is our crap! They've killed a good number of Americans. Yes, they have. It is a horror and an atrocity and no matter how we try, we will never be the same. Do you know why they did it? The middle east didn't just wake up one day and decide to hate all of us for no reason. The reasons behind their long-standing hatred of us are what we need to acknowledge and figure out how to deal with now. We've killed a good number of their people over the years. We have tried to control them rather than work with them. Now we have to ask ourselves - -- and face -- why they would feel they have reason to pay us back in such a diabolical and extreme way. Why? In our hearts, when we are alone and frightened and thinking about this late at night, we must each ask why. The way to stop violence is not with ever greater retaliation, greater terror, greater threats, back and forth forever. Continued attacks, from both sides, are guaranteed to keep this hatred alive, the wound open and festering. The way to stop this is to bring these countries into the current millenium and strive to move them toward a governmental system that is one of democracy and freedom, while respecting their religious and cultural ideologies and beliefs, so that they no longer want to willfully harbor and support such terrorists as bin Laden. We must embrace these countries and help them heal themselves socially in whatever way we can. That is how the "war against terrorism" can be fought ... and won. This is how we can heal ourselves. Countries like Afghanistan don't embrace men like bin Laden because they necessarily like them. They turn a blind eye to them because they hate the Western world more and have no burning desire to stand in their way. They are so war-torn themselves that they don't even have the resources to stop him if they wanted to. There is only one way to truly rid ourselves of an enemy, and that is to make them our friend. (The word enemy here being used to describe the middle eastern countries and peoples, not individual terrorists like bin Laden.) If we befriend the middle east, they will *want* to work to remove such extreme elements from their midst. It is imperative that we all learn how to live with each other in this world, because we are going to be sharing it for a very long time, and none of us is going away. It may not happen in our lifetimes, but I do believe that eventually the world will get to a peaceful place. We've seen such monumental strides just within the last 15 years. If there are people who have been upset by what I've said, I apologize. It is not my intent to harm anyone. I am sick over what has happened, too, having nightmares every time I try to sleep. And it is my own sickness and fear and sleeplesness over this that has brought me to the place where I must question our role in this and think about what our future role should be if we truly desire to preserve and cultivate peace in the world. If my views are not the popular ones, that's okay. I cannot be a sheep just because I'm afraid that people might not agree with me. With hope, Violet xoxox . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . Are you a Toriphile? Are you strange? New for 2001 from ToriThoughts: the Strange Little Toriphile shirt! Order now. http://www.torithoughts.org/projects/sltshirts.html Order deadline: Monday, September 24th. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:19:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: my $1 SatelliteNo2 said: > I know that maybe not all of them want to kill us, but it would not > particularly upset me much if the Palestinians all suddenly died. It's a > shame that anyone should have to feel this way about other human beings, > but they are evil. This is truly scary. Although U.S. born, I'm half Palestinian by ethnic heritage. Should I die, SatelliteNo2? [shudder] Perhaps only half of me. Which half, I wonder. My mother's wonderful home care nurse is Palestinian and lived for many years in Jordan before coming here to the U.S. to serve others with Adventist Home Health Care. She and her husband and two lovely young children are Baptist. Should they die? My father's side of the family is Catholic, and one of my cousins teaches the Old Testament at Antioch. Should they die? Maybe it's only the Palestinian *Muslims* who should die. Perhaps only if they don't come to live in the States. How about it, SatelliteNo2? Where are the lines on your hatred drawn? And you say all Palestinians are evil? For a clear look at evil I suggest you look in the mirror. Really, really scary. This is the thinking that allowed the gas chambers to exist. Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. "When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. "The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. "Hatred can be overcome only by love." --Mahatma Gandhi ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V6 #168 *************************************