From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V4 #291 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Tuesday, September 28 1999 Volume 04 : Number 291 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Datura, oh trippiness [angel dust ] Datura [Mystyglass@webtv.net (Cynthia G.)] Little Amsterdam [ToriBoi@aol.com] Re: ~JoSePHiNe~ [Peter Bermel ] the Realm is back! woohoo! ["Kristy" ] Re: To Venus and Back...liner notes [angel dust ] As I throw my journalistic integrity out the window.... [Sara Hansen ] my web page [Icicle1139@aol.com] Re: patterns [XXXPandora@aol.com] rape and such ["Sarah Folkes" ] Vegas Taping [Aaron ] Re: Datura, oh trippiness ["The Great Goddess Jolie" ] to politics and back [Ashley Blaize ] Re: liner notes mistake? ["Marcus Lambert" ] Re: Datura, oh trippiness ["Stinky Winky" ] Re: Datura ["The Great Goddess Jolie" ] Re: big purple nipples [Yvette Marie Edmonds ] Re: using datura ["Mike Gray" ] Re: Josephine ["Heather Parsons" ] ONE DALLAS TICKET [iamthe one ] Re: Cooling on TVaB ["Danny.Weddup" ] Song interp. ["Ville 'Miko' =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E4kkinen?=" ] Re: datura ["Lauren DePhillips" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:55:36 EDT From: angel dust Subject: Re: Datura, oh trippiness hello, i am new to the group. i would just like to say that i like that song too. i bought to venus and back really early the morning it came out, and have yet to hear a song from our goddess that i can seriously say that i dislike. like latex, fur and feathers: angel "there is a difference between kneeling down and bending over" --frank zappa - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 9/26/99 10:37:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >ssvidar@super.net.uk writes: > >> This , I think has to be the song which I like least on this album, >the one >> thing the makes me buy Toris album is her voice in song....this is >just >> basically her talking for bloody ages about various druggy plants, >a bit of >> music and then a repetition of the same line again and again >'deviding >> Canaan'...which I can take if the tune varies or her voices changes >pitch, >> whatever but I just can't stand hearing that repeated again and >again! >> arrghhh....maybe this is truly one for the drug-takers, because I >think >> you'd have to be pretty drugged to get this song to sail your >ships. >> >> Squidgy >> > >It's fine that you don't like the song. Everyone on this list is at a >different point in there lives, and different things affect them in >different >ways. I feel this song in such a strong way. What an arrogant >statement >saying that only someone on drugs would appreciate it. > > >-Gus (Who enjoys Datura, and will defend it. And just for the record, >is not >addicted to drugs) (: ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:44:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Mystyglass@webtv.net (Cynthia G.) Subject: Datura First of all, pani, I LOVE your interpretation...interesting idea about the dividing of Canaan too. Or is it possible that she sees herself as the Hebrews herself, which is why she's taking inventory? And there's also something to say about dividing plants, and she could consider herself "master of her domain" if you will, taking inventory and then dividing her new land, taking charge of it... Squidgy wrote: >This , I think has to be the song which I like >least on this album, the one thing the makes >me buy Toris album is her voice in song....this >is just basically her talking for bloody ages >about various druggy plants, a bit of music and >then a repetition of the same line again and >again 'deviding Canaan'...which I can take if >the tune varies or her voices changes pitch, >whatever but I just can't stand hearing that >repeated again and again! arrghhh....maybe >this is truly one for the drug-takers, because I >think you'd have to be pretty drugged to get >this song to sail your ships. Well, actually what I think is so cool about this song is that you don't HAVE to be a drug user to get off on it. A gardener perhaps? ;) (for that I would more likely qualify.) Alls I know is that now I have a new gardening song to replace the *way too short* Kate Bush classic "Night Scented Stock." I looped that one in my brain WAY too many an afternoon this past summer...I love this because it's over 8 minutes long and I won't get as sick of it as fast. ;) It truly rocks my little garden! Oh and by the way, most of the flowers and herbs she was listing are fairly ordinary and used more for decorative purposes, not drug use. Datura CAN be used as a hallucinagen, but can be EXTREMELY toxic if not taken carefully. They say that chewin' the leaves and stems could kill ya, too direct to the blood stream. Maybe she feels it serves a purpose of protection as well? As if the flower is screaming to all potential intruders of any manner to "get outta the garden"...I dunno, just another theory. Over and out - Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:34:18 EDT From: ToriBoi@aol.com Subject: Little Amsterdam Does anybody know FOR SURE the exact lyrics in Little Amsterdam, in the part where she starts "all alone got a girl in the city ... hey got a room and a place for two.." The lyrics are not in my CD or the Sheet Music book... I myself think I know, but I want to know if anyone knows for SURE. Thanks! Joey ToriBoi@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:51:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Bermel Subject: Re: ~JoSePHiNe~ The song "Not Tonight, Josephine" clearly alludes to the legendary love affair between Napoleon Bonaparte and his lover, Josephine. I think as much has been mentioned on p-t before. IMHO, the song specifically tries to capture Napoleon's thinking when he made the critical decision in his military campaigns to continue his onslaught on Russia. That decision eventually led to his defeat in Waterloo. My line-by-line analysis is below: On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, *ShaDy FeLiNE* wrote: > > I have come to decide that this song is about *deep breath* love. Not new > love, not love that is still love.. Not a happy song. The narrator (whomever > he or she may be) at one time had a beautiful love for someone else, a > mutual love that has been lost. Our hero (the narrator) knows, is CERTAIN, > that if they could just try again.. It could be reclaimed.. But the other > half of this beautiful relationship is putting it off.. "not tonight, not > tonight".. The entire tone of the song, to me, is at times one of regret, > sometimes one of anger, longing, and she even goes so far as to add a tone > of anger, with a sprig of sadness for taste.. The whole time the narrator > seems to know it will work, yet know there is no possibility.. HopefuIly > some of you are able to grasp what I am trying to say.. Forgive me for the > scattered thought, this song hit me a few days ago, and I've been sat at > school all day today thinking about putting my thoughts into actual text for > the lot of you.... It's actually quite hard to summarize, so I'll present my > theory / idea to you in a fashion not unlike those I have seen used on this > list recently... *put on your openminded caps!* > > not tonight, Josephine > > *that trite phrase... I saw this line as being a quote requiring exegesis through the rest of the lyrics of the song. > in an army's strength therein lies the denouement > > *armies are strong, right?denouement is defined by the webster's dictionary > as > 1 : the final outcome of the main dramatic complication in a literary work > 2 : the outcome of a complex sequence of events > So, the answer is to be strong, the narrator will have to be strong, or will > come out strong as an army is the end... > anther possibility that just popped into my brain.. we all know that when a > really horrible breakup ensues, and you miss whoever you were with, you have > to be strong, and you go searching searching searching for strength, and you > come out of the whole thing a stronger person.. This is actually more literal than you think, IMHO. It alludes to Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo - his dependence upon conquering armies leads to the end of his career and his exile. > from here you're haunting me > > *the narrator is out, he or she is over it, the have gone somewhere else.. > from that place of pain at the loss to one of serene (perhaps) one-ness.. At > ease with one's self.. but instead of "there" (the pain-stricken place) > they are "here" (the ok place) yet, the other is still haunting them.. the > are STILL catching themself thinking about the other person.. The narrator, Napoleon, is abroad (Russia). > by the seine, so beautiful.. only not to be of use? impossible.. > > the Seine, a beautiful river.. The relationship and the love in it was just > as beautiful as this lovely river... but the love is dormant.. the anger bit > is sensed in this line and the others like it.. It's a huge mistake to let > it lie there not being used, and the narrator sees it Since he's from Paris, the Seine comes immediately to mind as a symbol of home and hence, Josephine. > so strange, victory > > the "getting over it" mentioned above applies here... getting over a lost > love is DEFINETLY a victory.. It's a victory, but it's not as the narrator > imagined.. There are still feelings there I think "victory" refers directly to a *real* victory on the battlefield. > twelve hundred spires, the only sound, moscow burning > > Moscow is a very powerful city.. the love was just as powerful as Moscow.. > here in the Ok place it is quiet, and the only thing that can be heard is > the powerful love burning to the ground.. Perhaps a BfP reference, "the > spire is hot and my cells can't feed"? This refers to the near-defeat of Russia, and the scorched-earth campaign that the Russian generals employed to draw his army into the winter. > empty like the tuileries > > the place the narrator is in now is empty.. i discovered that a tuilery is > like the beams of wood that form a triangle on the roof of the house.. also > a BEAUTIFUL garden in France.. > > like a dream Vienna seems.. only not to be of use? impossible > > Vienna is a very old city, yet it is still beautiful.. perhaps the love had > a classic quality to it.. the same applies for this line as the "by the > Seine.." one.. Yeah, refers to the more "civilized" parts of Europe he has been away from for some time. > in the last extremety > > almost to the end of the road, last desperate effort to recreate what was > lost.. > > to advance or not to advance I hear you laughing > > the narrator has to make a choice.. The other half only has to sit there and > is laughing because it's not up to them > OR > laughter echoes in the "Ok Place" like a memory of better times True, Napoleon has to choose whether to advance further to try to seal his victory. In the meantime, of course, Josephine figures prominently in his thoughts. > even still you're calling me > > even though the other half knows exactly what's going on, he/she still makes > no effort to help and says.... > > not tonight, not tonight, not tonight Josephine "Not tonight" simply refers to his famous decision not to turn back. > I hope you enjoyed it and please try to keep your negative comments to a > minimum, as they make me kind of upset... Please don't take this as negative, I'm just trying to offer a context for understanding.... > If you've gotten this far you're wonderful for letting me get that out > Love, > Amy > Yours in Tori, Peter Bermel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:51:43 -0400 From: "Kristy" Subject: the Realm is back! woohoo! I'm not sure if anyone has posted this here yet...I got word via rmta. :o) The Realm is now (woohoo!) back up and running full force, you can find it at http://www.toriphile.com MP3s galore, a massive picture archive...everything! *happydance* Love and Sparkles, Kristy (\o/) "They're not Ears With Feet, they're Assholes With Tickets." ~~*the lovely Amy Webb, aka WyrdWoman §Visit my Tori Amos website, at http://fly.to/behindmyeyes§ *My homepage: http://www.geocities.com/tori_choirgirl "rolling and unrolling coiling emerging running free running through the underworld into your room..." ~*Tori Amos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:55:36 EDT From: angel dust Subject: Re: To Venus and Back...liner notes i don't know, i never capitalize anything, so it could just be a preference..... like latex, fur and feathers: angel "there is a difference between kneeling down and bending over" --frank zappa - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Did anyone else notice that in the liner notes, the names of everyone but Tori are capitalized? "Writen and Produced by: tori amos" Any thoughts on this? I and my "artistic" friends capitalize our names or not, depending...i usually do, following the rules of grammar, unless I'm feeling very small at the time. Ryan ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:09:34 -0500 From: Sara Hansen Subject: As I throw my journalistic integrity out the window.... Hey, kids. I'm on the school newspaper this year, for the first time. So far, I love it. I volunteered to write a review of To Venus and Back, and... well... *whispers* I need your help. Naturally, I love the album. But I've never written a review before, and I don't know how to describe songs--as in what they sound like. I'm not talking in EWF-speak, either. I can talk to you guys about my mental images and describe a song as brown velvet and cinnamon, and you'll understand. I mean things I can say to the general public and have them get it. I'm asking you guys to help me describe the songs. Anything you can give me will be a help. What do they sound like? What are those effects in the background? Of what does it remind you? What's the feeling you get? What do you think the songs are about? --That's a big one. Meanings could be helpful. For example, Lust. I love it, but what on earth is it about??? So tell me what you think! Of course, I won't be able to credit you as "the beautiful people on the PT list," so you won't get your fifteen seconds of fame in a podunk high school. But I'll post the review when I'm done with it. Oh yeah. Both halves of the album, too. Use your vocabularies! I love you guys. Love, Sara xoxoxo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:58:29 EDT From: "j Swizl" Subject: Re: datura As I was reading through the lyrics to Datura I noticed that I have several of the plants including the frangipani, confederate jasmine, orange jasmine (a misnomer - the flowers are white), cats whiskers and texas sage. As far as I can figure the only connections between all the plants is that they all grow in warm climates and most will die in a freeze. I have never heard that any are hallucinagenic but the jasmine do smell quite nice. Also one post had mentioned about the ingredients including chocolate, cherries and shrimp. The chocolate cherries allamanda is a vine with large hibiscus like flowers, and both the golden and belize shrimp are shrubs, and quite attractive. Just call me your Tori botanist. swizl ...i can feel the distance getting close... >From: "Lauren DePhillips" >Reply-To: "Lauren DePhillips" >To: precious-things@smoe.org >Subject: datura >Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:34:21 PDT > > >>and Datura, i believe, not sure, is a flower with medicinal >>ingredients and is a hallucinogen...which to me could mean she is >>medicating, taking care of her garden. > >Tori has talked about using datura with a South-American shaman as the >inspiration behind Father Lucifer. Does anyone know if the other plants >listed have a similiar hallicinogenic properties or what there signifigance >might be?? > >lauren15@hotmail.com >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/7657 >evening stretched her cloak >********************** >never going back again >to crucify myself again >*********************** > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 21:31:21 EDT From: Icicle1139@aol.com Subject: my web page Hi guys- I have been busy updating my page, please go check it out! I just out up my TVAB reviews... http://www.gurlpages.com/music/jupitergrrl/index.html Thanks guys! Comments, comments, comments! Reviews and song interpretations WILL BE POSTED! No matter what. Thanks a lot! **kari** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:06:09 EDT From: XXXPandora@aol.com Subject: Re: patterns In a message dated 9/26/1999 10:27:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, toussaint@ime.net writes: << LE, UTP, FTCGH are all 12 tracks long. Orbiting is 11 and Still Orbiting is 13, averaged together, 12. >> artists don't get paid for more than 12 tracks on one album ... I thinks thats probably why :) although if you want to think of it romantically then go ahead :) kisses, joanne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 21:28:52 -0700 From: "Sarah Folkes" Subject: rape and such hey guys, i have a question. was tori amos actually raped, or was it an attempted rape with her getting away? i've gotten both stories and im confused. heh. thank you :) sarah "Never doubt the power of a person." -Tori Amos http://www.sapphirebelle.com/sarah/ icq-19029359 sarah@sapphirebelle.com - Sarah Folkes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 02:13:36 -0700 From: Aaron Subject: Vegas Taping Hi, Does anyone know which television show they taped the Vegas show for? (Did anyone else think the damn camera people on stage were annoying as fuck also?) aa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 04:01:42 GMT From: "The Great Goddess Jolie" Subject: Re: Datura, oh trippiness what was the specific inspiration for 1ooo Oceans??????? Jolie "Poisened down, rotten to the core Too FUCKED up to care any more" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:30:16 EDT From: XXXPandora@aol.com Subject: Re: UTP VS TVAB In a message dated 9/27/1999 9:57:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marsanderson@hotmail.com writes: << "then, if you compare UTP and TVAB, they are both more random topically (I know UTP is the impressionist painting, but i dont know if TVAB is defined yet)" --Perhaps the surrealistic painting? that's how it strikes me, at least. >> yes!!! awesome :) perfect!!! yay! these are my two favorites ... and no wonder that they are the weirdest and artiest :) kisses, joanne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:17:54 -0500 From: orange jasmine Subject: re: datura >I thought that tori did ayahuasca and that was where father lucifer came from. am I confused? hrmmm.... > yes, that's right. as far as i know, tori has never said anything about tripping on datura (which is something i've never heard of before, anyway), but she's talked a lot about ayahuasca. xox ana http://www.milligram.org (portugese: milligrambrazil.cjb.net) written on the subway walls. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 22:50:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Ashley Blaize Subject: to politics and back this album seems to be such a apolitically based album. i'm kind of basing this on 3 songs. listen up.... juarez - tori said that this osng was about a rape spree in mexico. riot poof - the matthew shepherd ordeal spring haze - jfk jr.'s death i have yet to really listen into the other songs and do research to see if there are any more political references in any of them, and if anyone has any thoughts on this, let me know. i might be stupid, ashley ===== through that and this trading list - http://members.tripod.com/thewaitress/trading/html/ tea with the waitress - http://members.tripod.com/thewaitress/waitress/html/ ashley's page - http://members.tripod.com/venusenvy/ 'rolling and unrolling, coiling, emerging, running free...' - tori amos __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 22:24:30 -0500 From: "Marcus Lambert" Subject: Re: liner notes mistake? > >I believe that the "(Christmas in Space)" was supposed to go after "Have > >Yourself a Merry Little Christmas", not after "Purple People". It > >certainly makes more sense, and I think my opinion is supported by the lack > >of "(Christmas in Space)" on the US Spark singles. > Actually, I thought that (Christmas in Space) belonged with "Purple People" since I thought the purple people in the song were like little green men in space ... but purple! I never tried to decipher "Purple People" so I have no idea what it is about. Also, since "Have YOUSELF a Merry Little Christmas" is on there, having another 'Christmas' related track seems logical. However, this could also just be a name change. Maybe Tori didn't like the (Christmas in Space) part, and deleted it when the song was referred to in the future. That is why it appears as only "Purple People" on the US "Spark" single and the "Venus Live. Still Orbiting" album. Bjork did a similar, but more drastic thing (example: "Nature is Ancient" was changed to "My Snare" ). Just my 2 cents! Marcus P.S. Anybody decipher "Purple People" yet? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:33:46 EDT From: "Stinky Winky" Subject: Re: Datura, oh trippiness >maybe this is truly one for the drug-takers, because I think >you'd have to be pretty drugged to get this song to sail your ships. > >Squidgy this is actually my favorite one on the album...i have yet to listen to it while high... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:44:23 GMT From: "The Great Goddess Jolie" Subject: Re: Datura you knwo while drugs are all well and good, i have found that i find the previous comment that Datura can only be appreciated by drug takers QUITE offensive. i'm not too fond of this song...no(it may change eventually but right now i'd much rather sit and listen to the live purple people), but i really doubt tori sat down and went....HEY....YOU KNOW WHAT....I'M GONNA WRITE A SONG only FOR THE PPL WHO TAKE DRUGS. SCREW THE REST OF MY FANS..... just an idea Jolie >From: "Heather Parsons" >Reply-To: "Heather Parsons" >To: precious-things@smoe.org >Subject: Datura >Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:32:08 PDT > > >Squidgy wrote: >>This , I think has to be the song which I like least on this album, the >>one >>thing the makes me buy Toris album is her voice in song....this is just >>basically her talking for bloody ages about various druggy plants, a bit >>of >>music and then a repetition of the same line again and again 'deviding >>Canaan'...which I can take if the tune varies or her voices changes pitch, >>whatever but I just can't stand hearing that repeated again and again! >>arrghhh....maybe this is truly one for the drug-takers, because I think >>you'd have to be pretty drugged to get this song to sail your ships. > > "I'm saaaAAAAAAaaaaaaaaailing! SAAAAAIIIIILLLLLLLIIIIIINNNG!" > >Oh, um...DAMN THAT NYQUIL! > >Heather > >p.s. You rule, Gus! > >::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >get out of my garden. > >stupid ideals >http://www.geocities.com/heatherspace > >"Is there room in my heart for you >to follow your heart, and not need >more blood from the tip of your star?" >-- Tori Amos > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:17:30 -0400 From: Yvette Marie Edmonds Subject: Re: big purple nipples >lastly, anyone who got the purple tee shirt, i have a question. you know how >there are the outside things, with the purple dot in the white ness? well, >has anyone else experienced people saying things about nipples with them? i >got laughed at a few time last time i wore it. you think they could place it >a little better. OK, I know this may not be the most... uh... tittilating of topics (sorry!), but I was wondering if I was the only one who had noticed the unfortunate placement of those planet-y things. The first time I wore the shirt I walked around wondering why so many people were smirking at me (is my hair sticking up? do I have a 3-inch-long piece of spinach stuck in my tooth? am I just funny looking?)... until I took a good look at myself in the mirror. Now I'm a little afraid to wear it! I'm not generally one to go around with my nipples out, especially if they're big and purple and look like planets. Which they usually don't. Yvette - -- Yvette Marie Edmonds / yme1@cornell.edu PEHR / 316 Noyes Center / 255-7450 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/yme1 "No Delia, fish lips THEN throat pump." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:38:47 +0100 From: "Mike Gray" Subject: Re: using datura > used that are similar and compare it to other drugs - it's a VERY > interesting read! But it also sounds like something the average drug user > would not want to fuck with! It's sounds like pretty crazy stuff! I wondered before the album came out how long this one would take to come up - and from the reading I did at the time, it looks like Datura is a drug that *no-one* should be messing with, experienced drug user or not. Personally I don't do drugs ~full stop~ but don't preach against people who do - but I think people are better armed with the facts than not... It always worried me at the time (and I am not insulting the intelligence of Toriphiles here) that someone with no knowledge would experiment with Datura on the strength of having been made aware of it by the song. (Sees naive thought "Oh, Tori's tried it, it can't be that bad/strong...") Here's just a couple of little excerpts for those of you who might have been thinking of trying it : (with thanks to the person who mailed it to me originally, and the person who mailed it to her (also on this list)) "If she likes you she can be a gentle spirit. If she doesn't like you she will kill you." [if you get the dosage wrong, you're dead] "We read about the hundreds of people who have tried to take Datura to get high and die because of it. They die because Datura is not a get high plant..." "She is very intoxicating with the smell of her beautiful flowers. She calls out to you everytime you walk by her." [addiction?] "You see, Datura messes with your brain in a way that causes mind loss, and I don't mean for just a little while. It can cause permanent short term memory loss for months. " [more danger] "Once again let me stress the importance of Not using Datura.....She is a killer. She will take your life if she does not like you. Will I journey with her again? I don't foresee it in the near future, but I will never put her out of my life. I will continue growing her like I always have and continue to look upon her beauty with reverence." My take on this - is that simply put, it's a toxic plant which causes short term memory loss for some months, does not get you high, and is addictive. Those excerpts were obviously from a *user* of Datura. "ayahuasca" - for those of you who asked, is in fact a mixture which is made using Datura, and is the one which is referred to in the whole Father Lucifer thing. HTH. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:27:11 PDT From: "Heather Parsons" Subject: Re: Josephine Hello, everyone. I felt compelled to jump in on the Josephine interpretation. It's fairly obvious from the lyrics that this song is sung from the point of view of Napoleon Bonaparte, emperor of France in the early part of the eighteenth century. Josephine de Beauharnais was his wife from March 9, 1796, until 1809, when he had the marriage annulled. Josephine was crowned Empress of France in 1804, and Napoleon waged a fierce campaign on Europe during his reign. The song is about Napoleon's crushing defeat, and his subsequent loss of Josephine. That may seem like an odd thing to say, considering he was the one who nullified their marriage, but Napoleon was a very proud man, and I tend to be a romantic at heart, and think that Napoleon felt unworthy of the one woman he ever truly loved. If you ever get a chance to read his love letters to Josephine, please do. They're beautiful, and the ones who wrote while he was in exile, after his defeat and the nullification, are just breath-taking. I'll step through the lyrics... "In an army's strength therein lies the denoument" - -- The song is taking place as Napoleon is in Moscow, Russia. Taking Russia would have been his ultimate defeat of Western Europe, and his open door to the eventual defeat of Eastern Europe. Taking the capital of Russia would have easily submitted the rest of the country. Napoleon viewed this as the final step to his indisputable control over an entire European empire. "Denoument" means finale, finish. "From here you're haunting me / By the Seine so beautiful, only not to be of use, impossible" - -- In the letters Napoleon sent to Josephine near the end of their marriage, he was constantly telling her of her duty as an Empress, and as a political figure. His arrogance at this point is rest assured, as he was on the brink of holding an entire continent in the palm of his hand. He came to view Josephine, back home in France, as a detriment. I can imagine that as he's watching his army being destroyed by the Russians, he's somehow reaching out to her mentally, wanting some sort of comfort, but being too proud to admit his own failings. The Seine is the river which flows through the center of Paris, France, by the way. "So strange, victory / 1,200 spires, the only sound Moscow burning" - -- Moscow is knows for its spires in its beautiful architecture. And at this point, Napoleon is reevaluating where he overstepped his bounds. He's marveling over how the most powerful army in all of Europe can be wiped out in a single campaign. If I can paint a mental picture for you, imagine Moscow in the dead of winter -- snow covering everything, stained with blood, and the sky a hazy orange-pink from the fires...I promise you it brings new meaning to the song if you think of it visually. "Empty like the Tuleries / Like a dream Vienna seems, only not to be of use - -- impossible" - -- The Tuleries is the name of the palace where Napoleon and Josephine were brought together in October of 1795. Napoleon is lamenting how not even love, or the memory of love in all of its perfection, can save him now. The mention of Vienna, Austria is in reference to Napoleon's brilliant military campaign that swept through Italy, and attacked the Austrian Empire at it southern flank. This campaign pretty much solidified the Napoleonic Empire at that point, making it seem as if nothing could stop this man from conquering all of Europe if he had defeated the almighty Austrian Empire. "In the last extremity -- to advance or not to advance -- I hear you laughing" - -- I think this is Napoleon resigning himself to his mistakes, and imagining Josephine having her own sweet taste of revenge, no matter how bittersweet. He is at the end of his rope. He is watching his own impending doom loom before him in the form of his army's defeat, wondering if it's even worth it to move on. Subsequently, Napoleon *would* move on, his defeat at Moscow leading to his crushing defeats at Liezpig and Waterloo (1815). "Even still you're calling me 'not tonight, not tonight, not tonight' Josephine." - -- I think "not tonight" has a few meanings. First, it is in reference to their love. Second, which is my favorite reason, it is Josephine triumphing in Napoleon's defeat, and saying to Napoleon in Moscow, as the city burns and his army lies scattered, victory will not be yours -- "not tonight." Next to Datura, I believe Jospehine is my favorite song on To Venus and Back. The military drumming, which is slow, and tired, and the haunting piano, which has a decidely melancholy feel to it. The song is like a dream, as if Napoleon (who *is* the narrator) is standing in a daze, watching Moscow burn, almost unable to believe what has just happened to him, but realizing, and in an inbetween state of shock and horrifying realization. Then, conjuring up his love, Josephine, a tone of utter regret to his words, but also a tinge of wicked resignation as he realizes he is truly "defeated", in more ways than one. Every time I hear this song, I am overwhelmed by its sheer beauty, and I have to say that being a History major, and Napoleon (to me) being one of the most fascinating figures in history, Tori has written a ballad for the ages. It is gorgeous. I would love to hear any other thoughts on this song. Heather ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: get out of my garden. stupid ideals http://www.geocities.com/heatherspace "Is there room in my heart for you to follow your heart, and not need more blood from the tip of your star?" - -- Tori Amos ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:34:10 -0700 (PDT) From: iamthe one Subject: ONE DALLAS TICKET Ok everyone i know this is short notice but i have one ticket to the dallas show at the starplex. The seat is ok it is not on the lawn. This probably will not post until late today and since the concert is tomorrow i do not know if i will be able to check my mail so if you are interested you can call me at home and i will give you the down and dirty. This is my home phone so be nice guys 940-716-9841 ask for james. take care see you at the show! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:26:54 +0100 From: "Danny.Weddup" Subject: Re: Cooling on TVaB Hi, I *DO* realise that Tori isn't speaking literally (I'm not that dumb), I just wondered if anyone could enlighten me as to exactly what she means. I don't mean to sound bitchy or anything but your e-mail (Gus) was kind of patronising. Danny :o) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 3:05 AM Subject: Re: What a great album! > In a message dated 9/26/99 10:33:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Sparkly658@hotmail.com writes: > > > > so totally different from the live version on the Hey Jupiter single, and > > > Cooling is even more beautiful live (but as regards the talky bit > > > beforehand, how can a song tell you to fuck off? > > Um, she's not meaning it literally, as if the song became human and spoke. > Use your imagination, don't you know tori by now? I think it's great when we > can say things that we wouldn't usually say because they sound strange. what > defines strange? > > -Gus > silver dollar eucalyptus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:30:36 +0200 From: "Ville 'Miko' =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E4kkinen?=" Subject: Song interp. Hidey ho, neighbours! I just got TVaB today. One thing struck me immediately upon first listen. Josephine *has* to be about Napoleon. More specifically, I'd suggest it's about the 'behind every great man is a great woman' theory, as it applies to Nappers. [1] To take it from the top: 1. The military drumming. 2. Napoleon's wife was named Josephine. 3. When not at war, Napoleon lived in Paris, which is on the Seine. "By the Seine so beautiful.." 4. Napoleon went to war against Russia, and, in theory, won. He reached Moscow with little resistance, couldn't think of what to do once there, and most of his troops froze or starved to death on the way back. "So strange, victory, twelve hundred spires.." He did set fire to most of it, though. "Moscow burning.." Also, could Bliss be from the viewpoint(s) of one or several of the new girls, and/or Tori? "Lately, I'm into circuitry" would seem to be a line for Tori, as would "Maybe you're a 4 horse engine", but "Made of you but not enough for you" and "Maybe we're a Bliss of another kind" sound like lines for the girls. It could also be about the band, much like the Pumpkins' "Ava Adore". Then again, it might as well be about her parents. Or the price of tea in China. Or anything else in the seething, boiling kettle of electric eels Tori calls her mind. ^.^ -Miko [1] Or possibly the way sexual frustration leads to violence, although that may be stretching it a bit. "In the last extremity .. I hear you laughing .. even still you're calling me, 'not tonight'." Leaders of nations not getting any leads to conflict. Um. Maybe not. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:03:14 GMT From: "* mimi *" Subject: tori in dallas i was just wondering who all was going to the show tomorrow and if they were going to go to the meet and greet and if they are about what time they were going to go and anything else they want to tell me about tomorrow thanks, mimi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:09:41 PDT From: "Lauren DePhillips" Subject: Re: datura >From: Nosaidyes@aol.com >To: lauren15@hotmail.com, precious-things@smoe.org >Subject: Re: datura >Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:58:33 EDT > >In a message dated 9/26/99 9:26:50 PM EST, lauren15@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Tori has talked about using datura with a South-American shaman as the > inspiration behind Father Lucifer. Does anyone know if the other plants > listed have a similiar hallicinogenic properties or what there >signifigance > might be?? >> > >tori has talked about using ayahuasca with a shaman. >j'ason >~ >toriphoria - the word of tori amos >http://members.xoom.com/gosaidgo/toriphoria.htm Sorry bout that. I thought I knew what I was talking about but obviously I didn't. Thanks for the correction(s). I'm still curious: Does anyone have any insights into Datura (the song). lauren15@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/7657 evening stretched her cloak ********************** never going back again to crucify myself again *********************** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V4 #291 *************************************