From: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org (precious-things-digest) To: precious-things-digest@smoe.org Subject: precious-things-digest V4 #185 Reply-To: precious-things@smoe.org Sender: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-precious-things-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "precious-things-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. precious-things-digest Tuesday, June 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 185 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Thanks to all... [KAPS72@aol.com] Tori Fanclub? [Surreal00@aol.com] New Tori Box set [Ears with Feet ] Re: Anastasia [Talula96AM@aol.com] Re: why the turn off at pele? [dbailey ] Re: Tori covering [Princess Shannon ] Boys for Pele is my favortie album of all time... [Tripp Gwyn ] Re: Tori MP3's can be found at ... ["Kaj-Michael Lang" ] 6 is 9, and live from ny [Superpulp@aol.com] Re: CALS [PoetGrrlAC@aol.com] Tori on TV [Ears with Feet ] Re: tripping [Kim ] End Sessions [KNHoppe@aol.com] Re: Tori covering [Daisy Dead Petals ] tori's anastasia and cloud [Princess Shannon ] Re: Never Seen Blue/For Mark Connection..... and Jimi Hendrix [Richard Ha] Re: the wrong band? ["Kristy" ] Re: Could On My Tongue ["C.F." ] Speaking of The Wrong Band... [VenusFruit@aol.com] Re: Who Anastasia Romanov was (2/2) [Keith Shapiro ] Re: a jumble of info [Daisy Dead Petals ] Re: Russians dying on the ice.. [Richard Handal ] Re: Russians dying on the ice [BIueHour@aol.com] Who Anastasia Romanov was (1/2) [Keith Shapiro ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:29:20 EDT From: KAPS72@aol.com Subject: Thanks to all... I just wanted to thank all of you who have been sending Tori pictures through lately. I have enjoyed them so much. I don't have a scanner so unfortunately I cannot share some, though I don't have many! Thanks again! - - Kim "...and all of those up there are making it look so easy with their perfect wings a wing can cover all sorts of things...." - - Sister Janet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:23:06 EDT From: Surreal00@aol.com Subject: Tori Fanclub? This is probably a stupid question but does anyone know if there is a Tori fanclub I can join? I need like info on how much it costs and where I can call or email or whatever. Thanks to anyone who decides to help me! ^riley^ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 02:58:42 GMT From: Ears with Feet Subject: New Tori Box set I remember reading in a web site a few months ago that Atlantic was planing to release a box set in December. I am not sure if this info is true or not so if anyone out there has any information on this, please share it with us. Thanks. AJ * Sticks and stones may break my bones ... Man!!! That would hurt * _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:07:43 EDT From: Talula96AM@aol.com Subject: Re: Anastasia hello, i have always loved history, and the story of anastasia hit me, so when i heard the song yes, anastasia..i immidiatly fell in love with it..it's my favorite song on under the pink, btw onterms of how she escaped...i heard that they sewed all there valubles in the lining of their coats or cloths..and when they went to kill her, they hit some jewelry or money or something so that she lived...mmm..maybe not, i heard that somwhere..maybe i have my story's twisted lol. anyways i love that song expecially the part where she says "we'll see " really loud and everything gets mixed, it's awsome. hehehe Erin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:58:04 -0500 From: dbailey Subject: Re: why the turn off at pele? I'll tell you why: because BFP is _head candy_. It's sophisticated, intellectual, and heart-wrenching in a way none of her previous albums were. The LE was heart-candy, which is easier to relate than head candy. UTP was a stab in the direction of Pop, which also made it more accessible. BFP, on the other hand, with its complex piano arrangements, was too much for most people to handle. It was real _meat_ when most of her fans preferred Pepsi. As you might have guessed, I'm a little down on folk who are down on BFP. Tori's rich piano work is what I love most about her, and BFP is a treasure-trove for a guy like me. Doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:09:04 EDT From: Princess Shannon Subject: Re: Tori covering mnady-- oh wow! what if she covered "hey you"? that would make me melt and cry at the same time. a friend of mine has been wanting her to cover patsy cline's "crazy" ("crazy im crazy for feelin' so lonley...") forever. there are so many incredible songs tori could add too... yay!! great thread..... ~~*~shannon. >From: VenusFruit@aol.com >Reply-To: VenusFruit@aol.com >To: precious-things@smoe.org >Subject: Tori covering >Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:37:40 EDT > > >Hi, >I had a thought and I was wondering if anyone thought the same. I would >love >for Tori to cover a Pink Floyd song - like Mother or Wish You Were Here - >I'd >just like to hear Tori's beautiful voice singing those songs and the piano >composition she would get out of them. My absolute favorites are A Case of >You and Famous Blue Raincoat - also, the way Tori does Smells Like Teen >Spirit is incredible. > >Just a few thoughts! > >-mandy _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:59:48 -0400 From: Tripp Gwyn Subject: Boys for Pele is my favortie album of all time... Please don't flame me for another BFP post. But I can't resist. Boys for Pele was my first Tori album. To this day it still causes psychological and physiological problems all over my body. No other album can stretch that deep into me. The album is so rich in instrumentation. WE have harpsichord, the boosey, SO many wonderful strings, all of the brass, Van Dyke Parks!, Phil Shenale on more than one song (IE Choirgirl). Everything on this album has so many deep meanings and they're all going in so many directions. I received Pele from a friend as a Christmas present. I'd only heard Tori on SNL doing Hey Jupiter and CALS and could not get the "boys on my...." lyrics out of my head. I had heard a lot of critical fanfare about Tori, but I'd never really listened. Well, it was out last day of school before Christmas vacation. I was going somewhere with one of my parents so I just put the CD in my discman and put my headphones on. At first, I wasn't to sure about the lyrics. At the time I only listened to Enya and Smashing Pumpkins. :-) But I loved the music. THe music just pulled me in. So for a day or so, I just listened to it a little on and off. Then, one night, I sat on my grandmothers bedroom floor, with the lights off and the ear phones on and listened to the whole thing. I just couldn't stop. I was depressed at the time anyway. Many painful childhood memories were coming to light and I was really angry at the world. This album was angry to. But it was angry in an intelligent way. I was smitten. After Hey Jupiter I just cried my eyes out. For a long time, Pele was all I listened to. A few months later, after purchasing the other two albums, I was also smitten. I was then unable to listen to Pele because it brought my to tears much easier than LE and it was pretty good at that. Today, I can listen to Pele. Pele is and always will be the album that is most special to me. The ONLY mistake Tori made with this album is that she recorded Cooling and Beulah land during the Pele sessions, but didn't include them on the album. I guees they probaly wouldn't have fit considering the size it would have taken up on a CD. But they fit so well. My only goal in life is to one day produce an album that somehow meets the standard of quality Boys for Pele meets. I don't think it is possible. Sorry for the sappiness. I'm not a big crier, but you all were teens once too! If any of you REALLY love Pele, I'd like to reccomend Ophelia by Natalie Merchant. I will admit, the Kind and Generous song does not fit the album at all. The album is lush and rich in instrumentation and every song is deeply felt. Thanks to anyone who read this long message. Tripp Gwyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 01:14:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: Anastasia Michael has a huge file about Anastasia on The Dent. http://members.aye.net/~mikewhy/anastasia.html Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:37:13 +0300 From: "Kaj-Michael Lang" Subject: Re: Tori MP3's can be found at ... > Tori MP3's can be found at > > http://www.dubiz.com/mp3/ And even more mp3's can be found at http://www.tal.org/tori/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 01:18:11 EDT From: Superpulp@aol.com Subject: 6 is 9, and live from ny i was a little sketchy about "if 6 was 9" the first time i heard it, but now it's become one of those songs i listen to when i'm feeling all frustrated. i think the distorted piano really gets the point across. by the way, is there a cd version of the "live from ny" video? i absolutely love that performance of "little amsterdam" and i get it in my head while i'm at work. any help would be great! thank you, little dumplings! kristen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 00:16:25 EDT From: PoetGrrlAC@aol.com Subject: Re: CALS In a message dated 6/20/99 7:35:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, harbott@iafrica.com writes: > Anyone understand the Mr St. john reference in Caught a Lite Sneeze?? I remember in the book Jane Eyre Jane's employer and later husband was Mr. St. John. I think when this came up on the list a few months back, it was the consensus it was from Jane Eyre. peace, manda http://members.tripod.com/tinkerbellac Buy a Tori T-Shirt to profit RAINN at: http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Veranda/1035/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 06:46:55 GMT From: Ears with Feet Subject: Tori on TV Hi. It's me again. About a month ago I was watching KLCS Ch.58 (on cable I think is Ch.42). I was watching a show called 'In the Mix' and I saw Tori being interviewed. I did not have time to set up my VCR. I wrote an e-mail to the people that run the program to see if I could get a copy. They did get back to me and they gave me the prize and everything and something else that I did not expect. They said that the program will air again on the first weekend of July. So mark your calendars and prepare your VCRs so you too can tape and watch that show with the interview with Tori. AJ * The colors man, the colors * _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:12:52 -0400 From: Kim Subject: Re: tripping >Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:49:21 -0400 >From: skh1@mindspring.com >Subject: Re: Could On My Tongue >she says that most of UtP was composed while she was tripping... it was meant >to be a very obtuse and surrealistic work... I don't ever remember hearing or reading that. Anyone got some proof? - -way cool lurker- - -k ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 03:02:02 EDT From: KNHoppe@aol.com Subject: End Sessions Hey everyone!! I just thought I'd share that I just bought the 107.7's End Sessions CD, which included a live in the radio's studio recording of Tori performing Playboy Mommy, and it is soo beautiful!!! This CD is only available to us EWF Seattlites, as it is our radio station that is putting it out... Others on the CD are PJ Harvey doing "Perfect Day Elise", Marcy Playground performing "Sex & Candy", Everclear's "I Will Buy You A New Life", Blur, Violent Femmes, and a whole bunch more... It's an awesome CD. I'm putting up an MP3 of Tori's Playboy Mommy on my webpage so that if you aren't able to get the CD, you can at least listen to this song. I'm also willing to go out and get this CD for you lovely peeps, so just lemme know... ~~Noelle~ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Vine/6399/Tori.html ~~*~ How Many Fates Turn Around In The Overtime ~*~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:19:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Daisy Dead Petals Subject: Re: Tori covering Ooooh, wow, that is a great thought. I adore Pink Floyd almost as much as Tori, and if she did Wish You Were Here I would die. I love that song so much. I too love Tori's version of Smells Like Teen Spirit, it really puts a different spin on it than the original. I also think Tori could do a great cover of Soundgarden's Black Hole Sun...that would kick some butt. In dreams, Erin === look i'm standing naked before you don't you want more than my sex i can scream as loud as your last one but i can't claim innocence ta _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 00:22:21 EDT From: Princess Shannon Subject: tori's anastasia and cloud these are quotes of tori's that i found describing a bit about yes anastasia and cloud on my tongue, respectively. i hope they add a little more insight for whomever was looking for some explination. ~~*~shannon. "It's a journey. Anastasia Romanov... it's not like I've read loads of books on her. I was aware of the family and that's about it. So I'm in Virginia, and I had crabs...(giggles) I keep saying that! I had crab sickness, I had eaten bad crabs in Maryland! But I couldn't cancel the show. I was at soundcheck, and needless to say, when you are very, very ill, it is easier to communicate with your source... you are fragile and vulnerable. Well, her presence came. Now I have only heard of her in history, I've got no point to make. She comes and goes 'you've got to write my tune.' I go, 'ohhh, now's not really a good time.' She says, 'no, you've got to understand something from this, there's something here that you've got to come to terms with.' And that night came, (as she softly sings the line) 'We'll see how brave you are,' and that was really about the whole record. That came just about before everything. And whenever I sing that chorus, 'we'll see how brave you are,' it means so many different things to me. It's part of my self, my spirit self saying to the rest of myself, 'if you really want a challenge, just deal with yourself.' The funny thing is that Anna Anderson, who claimed to be Anastasia, died very close to where I was playing, an hour or so from there in the 80s. The feeling I got that Anna Anderson was Anastasia Romanov. She always tried to prove it and a lot of people believed her and some people didn't want to believe her, because of what that would have meant. And again,it's really working through being a victim. 'Counting the tears from ten thousand men, and gathered them all, but my feel are slipping.' You can't blame the men anymore; there's always you. It comes back to us; it comes back to me." "In Cloud on My Tongue, I put all my power in this other person. I think that they have something that I don't have. Well, of course we all have things the other person doesn't have as far as abilities. But we ALL have emotion that's capable of being complete for each one of us. But you can't be complete for me. We know this in the head, but to really apply it is another thing. Because when you feel inferior, you feel inferior. Sometimes I feel inferior to men who have this raw wolf energy. I just got to this recently. It doesn't mean that I still don't, like, snake around and leak all over the place when I'm around one of them. I kinda go 'Oh, God, here it is again. What am I gonna do?' What's happening is that I cut that part out of myself a LONG time ago. Because I judged it to be bad, and I was afraid of it. I was afraid I wouldn't be respected if I got in touch with that. I'm not talking strictly about sex. That's like a form of generating that energy, but just because you're having sex doesn't mean you're generating that energy. Do you see what I mean? But there are other ways of trying to get to it. Like music. Creativity tries to get you to that expression. That kundalini energy. I do it when I'm playing but I've really had a hard time bringing it into my life. I sit there sometimes like all the knobs have all been turned off. And I'll see something with the knob turned on and I go 'How did they do that?' " ~~*~*~*~ "I'm not interested in being a really nice person; I want to be a creative, responsible person that's balanced." --Tori Amos "I want somebody to care for me passionately with every thought and with every breath and when I'm asleep I want somebody who will put their arms around me and kiss me tenderly." --Depeche Mode "Somebody" _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:12:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: Never Seen Blue/For Mark Connection..... and Jimi Hendrix Nadyne said: > "For Mark" was an improv she did on "Modern Rock Live" in late 1996, > whereas that bit of "Never Seen Blue" was from the early days of the > BfP radio promotion stuff {Feb 1996}. Rare if minor brain fade from Nadyne, here. MRL was Sunday night February 4, 1996. Tori was on from 11pm to midnight Eastern Time. (The show itself is from 10:30 - 12m.) This was done two days after she taped the WHFS show Just Passin' Thru at Omega Recording studios which first aired the following Sunday, February 11. These dates are quite vivid to me. Those were amazing radio programs with Tori and I heard both of them when they first aired. BTW, The Dent says MRL was Feb. 5. Sorry, Michael. Can't be. It was a Sunday night, the same as MRL *always* has been every time I've heard it. Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:06:27 -0400 From: "Kristy" Subject: Re: the wrong band? Yepper, all 3 of the boys will be with Tori for the 5 1/2 Weeks Tour!!! :-) I'm thinking we're probably going to have the band from now on due to all of the stuff on FtCH that is undoable without the boys...although I'd really like to see a JUST TORI show! :-) But our little redhead is always full of surprises, so, who knows about tours past 5 1/2 Weeks?? ;-) Love and Sparkles, Kristy (\o/) Joey wrote: > >Do we know whether or not Tori will be touring with a band this summer?? If >so, will it be the same 3 guys??? I think it's an automatic that Steve Caton >will be with her, but will she be with others... ? I've heard the new >material on the other half of the disc is very much like stuff from FTCGH, >so she probably will be with band, but I would love to see her again just >Tori and her Bosie :) > >Joey >ToriBoi@aol.com >"you thought that you were the bomb, yes well so did I..." > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:24:29 EDT From: "C.F." Subject: Re: Could On My Tongue I have an interview at home where she's talking to the guy from the World Cafe about this song. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that she was talking about loss and how when you get that feeling, it's just like there's a big cloud sitting on your tongue...That is not word for word, but I know it's in the ballpark. If I get a chance, I'll listen to it again when I get home and then post to the group about it. >From: Terry Ferrell >Reply-To: Terry Ferrell >To: precious-things@smoe.org >Subject: Could On My Tongue >Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:49:32 GMT > > >Okay it is time to play everyone's favorite game INTURPRET THAT TORI SONG >*Theme music slowly comes in* > >Okay guys I have been thinking about the song Cloud On My Tongue for like a >week now, and I am about to drive myself crazy with it, and if one of you >people write me back and tell me to stop trying to intrepret her songs I am >just going to sit here and delete your message, so there :P > >Okay seriously.........I was wondering what you guys thought that song is >about. I recently got the Euegen, OR '98 show and right before she plays >COMT she talks about how she never really got searched for drugs and how >that was a good thing, and then she goes into playing COMT. So I was >wondering if the song is about doing drugs b/c you know you put acid on >your >tongue (got a cloud sleeping on my tongue). I have already checked the >Tori >Amos Lyric Database and wouldn't you know that there is not one single >quote >about that song there, just my luck. So if anyone of you have any ideas >please let me know. > >Thanks in advance >Terry > >AIM PoetMan888 > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:07:04 EDT From: VenusFruit@aol.com Subject: Speaking of The Wrong Band... Speaking of The Wrong Band (and I think that if Tori is going to revert back to just her and the piano it will be a while from now) why doesn't Tori ever play this song live? The only boot that I know of that has a live version is I Love Toffee Apples (I don't have this and I heard the quality is shitty). I've always really liked this song - the lyrics, piano composition - everything! I really with she would play it live sometimes. - -mandy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:16:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Shapiro Subject: Re: Who Anastasia Romanov was (2/2) These are posts from about a year ago. - -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- Keith D. Shapiro * I love you more, than I did the week keither@iname.com * before I discovered alcohol. Would http://take3.dreamhost.com/ * you please ignore, that you found me AOL: kdshap0 ICQ: 1978801 * on the floor trying on your camisole. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:34:33 -0700 From: violet@torithoughts.org To: precious-things@smoe.org Cc: Richard Handal Subject: Re: Who Anastasia Romanov was Richard wrote: >Violet's swamped with things these days, but once upon a time she would >get these huge files together giving background on a number of interesting >things and send them out to the lists. She still does it, if a bit less >often these days since she's so busy running a mailing list, etc., Actually, for a REALLY long time, she's been trying to gather everything together to ultimately put up on the RDTRN/ToriThoughts.Org site. :) Regarding the file I made on Anastasia in May of '97, there are a few errors in the text which I subsequently corrected. Here is the incorrect part followed by the correction: >> Since then, the bones of Anastasia and her younger brother, Alexei, were >> discovered in a grave in a very remote section of forest (where soldiers >> tried to burn the corpses before burying them them -- it was one of the >> soldier's testimonies that helped researchers locate the missing >>bodies). >> After DNA testing proved positively that the two skeletons were >>members of >> the Romanov family, it's now certain that none of them survived the >> massacre. >> >As it turns out, there were no bones remaining for Alexei and the missing >>sister. (I originally found this information in files on the Internet, >and >when I researched further, I discovered the errors -- not really >blatant >errors, but the way it was phrased amounted to the above). > >In actuality, it was not the *bones* of the two corpses that were discovered, >but the *site* where the two corpses had been *burned* and their ashes buried. > >What actually happened according to chief executioner Yurovsky (as >chronicled >in _The Romanovs: The Final Chapter_ by Robert K. Massie) was >that two bodies >(Alexei and one of the duchesses) were completely burned >and their ashes buried >at the site where the other bones were also >buried. > >Of the nine sets of bones that were found, scientists agree on the >identities >of seven, leaving four people -- Alexei, Anastasia, Tatiana, >and Marie -- to be >accounted for. Two of these three duchesses were in >the grave and (if we >believe Yurovsky's stories) the third was burned >along with Alexei. (Dr. >William Maples believes that the two bodies are >Tatiana and Marie (Anastasia >missing); Dr. Sergei Abramov believes that >the bodies are Tatiana and >Anastasia (Marie missing). After the massacre, Yurovsky turned in a written report to the Soviet government on the execution and disposition of the bodies. The original was kept in the secret files of the Central Archive of the October Revolution in Moscow and a copy was given to Soviet historian Michael Pokrovsky, who was never permitted to publish a word. In 1978 when an respected Russian filmmaker/writer began researching the executions, he interviewed Yurovsky's son (a retired vice admiral in the Soviet Navy) and the son gave him a handwritten copy of his father's report, saying that he wanted to repent for "the most horrible page" in his father's life. The report filled in gaps and corrected errors made by previous researchers. I have been working on a synopsis of this account, which had been hidden for sixty years, and which contains testimony about the events of that evening written by Yurovsky himself. It will be up online eventually. So much to do, so little time. Violet xoxox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:35:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Daisy Dead Petals Subject: Re: a jumble of info Gee, I'm just a posting maniac today :) This one's about if 6 was 9...I love Tori's version! I think it's great! I can see how some people wouldn't like it, but there's just something about it...I don't know. But I can possibly answer your question. The way they got the piano to sound like that was by hitching it up to a Marshall amp, the kind you use with a guitar or bass. In dreams, Erin === look i'm standing naked before you don't you want more than my sex i can scream as loud as your last one but i can't claim innocence ta _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 06:41:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal Subject: Re: Russians dying on the ice.. Amy said: > I never thought about this before, but there was a Russian figure > skater who died a few years ago in the middle of skating practice. > But I think that might have happened after BfP was released, so this > post may be meaningless... Pele wasn't released yet when that incident occurred, but it had been *recorded* already, yes. (I believe that was in November 1995 or thereabouts.) This comes up from time to time on the lists. Although I am unaware of Tori having said anything before about that line on a literal level, there was a combat incident which happened in 1940 about which *I* was put in mind when I heard Talula, but I never managed to find a simple citation for it anywhere on the internet before now. To avoid detailing complex events of World War II I'm going to leave it for anyone who wants to get more context of this episode of the war to check this site I'm referencing, but here is the basic description of how *these* Russians died "on the ice." http://members.home.net/jmatters/ Burnt Offerings ["An educational site devoted to World War II."] By James T. Matters http://members.home.net/jmatters/CHAPT3.htm Chapter 3 The Winter War - Russia vs. Finland December, 1939 to May, 1940 December 1 [1939] In the second major confrontation of ground units during the Second World War, the entire length of the Finnish-Soviet border erupts in clashes of varying intensity. Surprisingly, the Soviets are unable to achieve a major victory, but easily occupy the undefended islands in the Gulf of Finland. [...] February 11 [1940] Fighting on the Karelian front now reaches a crescendo. From the Baltic to Lake Ladoga, the entire front is engulfed in combat. The area around Summa, on the western shore, is hardest hit. There, Russian forces have massed more than four hundred artillery pieces to support the attack. The Soviets try to outflank the Finns by mounting an armored attack across the ice covered Gulf of Finland. Unknown numbers of these men die when the Finnish heavy coastal artillery fire breaks up the ice beneath the tanks. Some estimate that many thousands drown or freeze to death in the frigid water as the ice gives way beneath their treads. [...] (There's a 277k map which includes this area at: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/europe/Finland.jpg.) Whether or not Tori had that in mind when she wrote Talula or if she has ever heard about that episode at all I have no idea, but she's supposedly a history buff. All she said about that line when the May 1996 issue of Vox did an entire article on the song Talula was this: http://members.aye.net/~mikewhy/vox0596.html "Talula" was featured as 'Song of the Month' in the May 1996 issue of UK NME-Monthly Music Magazine, "Vox". Over a 2-page spread, the lyrics to "Talula" are analysed, along with Tori's commentary, by Stuart Bailie. [...] *"THE RUSSIANS DIE ON THE ICE" Tori says: "It's really about covert operations. About secrets. It's a riddle." [...] Now, I can't see how the song Talula can possibly have anything to do on a literal level with any Russians dying on any ice. I think that line is more likely another piece of imagery--poetic metaphor. (It feels dumb that I'm even saying this. "Tori Amos uses metaphor." "Oh, really?") I think the way her brain is hooked up allows her to pull references out of it to things which may be actual events, or to stuff which may have happened in her personal life, and to then apply them to *other* narratives; like when she tripped and fell on her platform shoes and came up with the first line of Playboy Mommy, even though that fall didn't have anything to do with her miscarriage as an event. When something like that happens it simply serves to illustrate the thing she's trying to convey about something else so it goes into the song about it. This sort of thing seems to easily lend itself to misunderstandings about how much the songs are or are not autobiographical. It is entirely possible for her to make a specific reference about something that really did happen to her, but in a context that may be about something else she observed or about something that wasn't an actual incident at all, which may itself be the thrust of the song. It's more about seeing patterns than it is about describing events. I get uncomfortable with a lot of the "this line means THIS ONE SPECIFIC THING" mindset. I think that usually misses the point, or at the very least, narrows it beyond what it might be were one to keep a more open mind. I think for most of the songs--as with most great art in any medium--to feel the greatest amount of impact from it, one must do as Tori suggested we do to listen to Pele: Get out of your head. It can be fun and interesting to try to figure out where a line comes from, but even if it can be traced to a known specific thing, I can't see the value of it most of the time beyond a footnote. Such quests for "meaning" seem to me to be nothing more than red herrings in nearly every instance. I think rather than seeking meaning, a more successful way of getting into a song would be to seek the point of view of the song: Who or what is the consciousness through whose eyes the imagery and/or narrative of the song is being seen. "Riddle," my ass. ;-) Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:37:10 EDT From: BIueHour@aol.com Subject: Re: Russians dying on the ice I just had to contribute to this thread. A few years ago I read the book by Ekaterina Gordeeva called My Sergei, a chronicle and tribute to her relationship with late husband and skating partner Sergei Grinkov. While immersed in that book, I had "Icicle," "Cloud on my Tongue," and "Yes, Anastasia" on repeat. It really put me in the right frame of mind to be reading this Russian love story. Those songs (especially and obviously "Yes, Anastasia," but the others as well) go together in a trilogy to me. Does anyone else see it? By the way, I greatly recommend reading My Sergei; it's a compelling read. It also doesn't hurt to have the Tori musical accompaniment! Take care, Leyna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:16:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Shapiro Subject: Who Anastasia Romanov was (1/2) These are posts from about a year ago. - -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- ** -- Keith D. Shapiro * I love you more, than I did the week keither@iname.com * before I discovered alcohol. Would http://take3.dreamhost.com/ * you please ignore, that you found me AOL: kdshap0 ICQ: 1978801 * on the floor trying on your camisole. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:11:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Handal To: ToriBoi@aol.com, Precious Things mailing list Subject: Who Anastasia Romanov was Joey said: > I'm not much on history or fairy tales, but can somebody explain in > detail what Anastasia is?? Violet's swamped with things these days, but once upon a time she would get these huge files together giving background on a number of interesting things and send them out to the lists. She still does it, if a bit less often these days since she's so busy running a mailing list, etc., but at any rate, here's a repost of something she sent in to Precious Things and RDT on May first of last year. I'm just reposting this. Violet deserves all the thanks for compiling it. Be seeing you, Richard Handal, H.G. ___________________________________________________________________ [Violet's current email is violet@torithoughts.org --Richard] >From: violet@slip.net >Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:09:53 -0700 >To: rdt@novia.net >Subject: Anastasia >Cc: precious-things@smoe.org [...] I just put together a ton of info on Anastasia for a Torifan who asked if I knew anything about her. I figured I might as well share it here, especially since I flaked on telling you guys the result of the DNA testing that was revealed in the Nova episode last year. Anastasia Romanov, daughter of Nicholas II (last czar of Russia), was executed by the Bolsheviks in 1918 along with the rest of her family. For many years, her body was missing (along with her brother's) and people thought she might have managed to escape after all. A woman by the name of Anna Anderson surfaced in 1922 claiming to be Anastasia. Many people believed her, many didn't. She died in 1984, still a mystery. However DNA tests performed a couple of years ago determined that she was absolutely NOT Anastasia; it is believed that she was a Polish factory worker named Franzisca Schanzkowska who had been missing for decades. Anna Anderson's DNA closely matched that of one of Franzisca's relatives, and in DNA testing, "close" is amazingly accurate since only relatives of each other tend to have DNA that even remotely matches. Since then, the bones of Anastasia and her younger brother, Alexei, were discovered in a grave in a very remote section of forest (where soldiers tried to burn the corpses before burying them them -- it was one of the soldier's testimonies that helped researchers locate the missing bodies). After DNA testing proved positively that the two skeletons were members of the Romanov family, it's now certain that none of them survived the massacre. There IS some confusion between scientists about whether the female body was Anastasia or her sister Marie, but most think it's Anastasia. If I'm remembering right, Anastasia was 17 when she was killed. Films: There was a great film made last year by HBO films titled "Rasputin." Because Rasputin was around the Romanovs a great deal and worked with them in his capacity as a "healer," much of their story shows up in the movie, including the takeover by the Bolsheviks and the family's massacre. But the most interesting thing is that the film shows how Anastasia's and Alexei's bodies were taken into the woods while the other five family members' bodies were buried elsewhere. (You can probably find this film at a video store. It was made last year and stars Alan Rickman). Another film is the classic "Anastasia" with Ingrid Bergman which was made in 1956. This film is based on Anna Anderson's claim that she was Anastasia and is told from that viewpoint. Ingrid won an Oscar for her performance. You can also look for another film of nearly the same title - -- "Anastasia: The Mystery of Anna" -- that was made in 1986. It stars Amy Irving as Anna and is basically the same story as that in the Ingrid Bergman film, but it's not as good. Books: There are several books that will tell you more about the daily life of Anastasia and her family, but my favorite is titled "Anastasia," although I've forgotten who the author is. I can look it up, if you want. Anyway, that's the first one that you should look at. But there ARE other good ones out there (I'm thinking there's one other with the title of "Anastasia," which might be why I can't remember who wrote the one I like; but I know it when I see it -- it's a pretty thick book). TV: There was a great documentary made for PBS a couple of years ago, but I don't know that you'd be able to find it anywhere. It was on Nova -- maybe you could find it in a library? Some video stores have a section with tapes of PBS documentary series -- maybe you'll get lucky. By the way, for those of you who are familiar with Tori's story about how she came to write "Anastasia," you will remember that it was the spirit of Anna Anderson who wanted Tori to "tell her story." At the time, Tori said she didn't know for certain whether Anna WAS Anastasia or not, but that she thought she probably was. Just goes to show that even Tori can be wrong from time to time. ;) The following bits are various news items and such about Anastasia. O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O [This is a synopsis from the Teacher's Guide for the "Anastasia" episode of Nova.] During the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, Czar Nicholas Romanov II was overthrown and exiled to the town of Ekaterinburg. In the middle of the night of July 16, 1918, Bolshevik guards, using the pretense that the Romanovs were in danger, led the Czar and his family into a basement and killed them. Although reports indicated that no one survived, some people believe that one of the Czar's daughters, Princess Anastasia, may have escaped. In 1922 a woman claiming to be Anastasia surfaced in Berlin. Six years later, she visited the United States and registered in a hotel using the name Anna Anderson. Relatives, doctors, and former acquaintances of the Romanovs interviewed and studied her, but until the advent of DNA analysis,no one could prove or disprove her claim with certainty. NOVA investigates this mystery, presenting personal testimonies, evidence from DNA tests, and extensive efforts to determine her true identity. O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O [This article is from early 1994, shortly before the DNA testing was done.] Did any Romanovs survive the 1919 massacre? Genetic testing may decide. By Dean Robinson Science has already solved one great historical mystery--the fate of Russia's last czar, Nicholas II,whose bones were unearthed with those of his family outside Ekaterinberg, Russia, and authenticated by genetic testing. Now the same method will help sort through the muddle of people claiming links to Nicholas's youngest children, Alexei and Anastasia Romanov,believed by many to have escaped their family's 1918 massacre by the Bolsheviks. The stakes are huge: definitive identification of some of history's most romantic figures; a bit part in Russian politics; benefits from a possible media bonanza; and, most intriguingly, a potential claim on a hoard of gold rumored to have been stashed by Nicholas. Most aspiring Romanovs are either charlatans or deluded. But the Ekaterinberg find has touched off a high-tech Cinderella search, attracting many offers of "royal" DNA for comparison to the genetic material in the bones. Efforts are already under way in several cases, including that of the most famous alleged Anastasia, the late Anna Anderson of Charlottesville, Virginia. Like Russian history itself, the hunt for Anastasia and Alexei is populated with weird characters. The Anderson case alone has attracted legal briefs from everyone from the Russian Nobility Association to one "Anastasia Romanov" of St. Petersburg Beach, Florida, who thinks she's Anderson's long-lost daughter. And now an ancient German baron may hold the key to solving the puzzle. Meanwhile, a U.S. public-relations firm called Wink Inc. has emerged as a self-styled clearinghouse for purported Romanovs--including a woman in Scottsdale, Arizona, who says her late husband was the czar's only son. (This particular Alexei taught Ronald Reagan how to ride a horse, Wink claims.) Just how many would-be royals are out there? "We feel there are eight," says Richard Sutz, vice president of Wink. "Five Alexeis and three Anastasias." Of these, the case of Anna Anderson may be the first and most prominent to be resolved. Celebrated in articles, books, and a 1956 Ingrid Bergman movie, Anderson was cremated in 1984 after dying at age 82. Last summer, however, a couple that was friendly with her learned that a Charlottesville hospital still has part of Anderson's intestine from a procedure performed years earlier. Because the czar's alleged daughter had no heirs--she acknowledged no children, and her husband died in 1990--the couple sued the hospital to free up Anderson's tissue for genetic testing. Anderson's friends have a personal motive: The wife, Marina Schweitzer, is a granddaughter of Eugene Botkin, the czar's doctor. Anderson said Botkin was murdered along with her family, but his bones weren't identified with genetic certainty. If Anderson was indeed Anastasia, then Schweitzer would know her grandfather's fate. But as soon as the suit was filed, things got messy. Late last year, the judge gave an official say to the secretive Russian Nobility Association, a group of Emigres that has insisted Anderson was an impostor, and to the long-lost "daughter" in Florida. A bitter Richard Schweitzer thinks the obstructionist RNA wants to protect its self-proclaimed authority on Russian history--and, perhaps, dreams of the gold that Schweitzer says the czar kept in London as dowry for his daughters. The rumored hoard can't be confirmed; the RNA won't comment. The Florida woman, known as Ellen Kailing until she changed her name to Anastasia Romanov last year, is even curiouser. She says she didn't learn her true identity until 1990 but is certain great wealth awaits her--and that the Russian throne awaits her 16-year-old son. "I would say that history will turn 180 degrees around," she says, amid bizarre tales of plots and attempts on her life. To fend off such challengers, Schweitzer thinks he can rely on 86-year-old Baron Ulrich von Gienanth, executor of a series of wills Anderson made while living in Germany in the 1940s and 1950s --probably the only credible Anderson wills in existence. If his legal standing is confirmed, the baron apparently wants Anderson's tissue to be tested as soon as possible. Testing at the English lab that verified the czar's bones would cost the Schweitzers 10,000 pounds ($14,750). But that kind of expense doesn't deter other royal wanna-bes, including Canadian resident Sandra Romanov, who claims her late husband was Alexei. "I would like ten labs to be involved," she says. "That way there'll be no hanky-panky." The Wink PR agency has offered to spring for testing of other alleged Romanovs--in return for book and film rights, of course.Wink's Sutz says the firm considered targeting the gold hoard, too, but decided to skip "an enormously long and difficult legal battle." Thinking of claiming the Russian throne yourself? Beware: Even Wink has standards. "We would have to have some kind of screening," says Sutz. "It's just like a crime: There are always 50 people who will pop up and admit to it." O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O [This article mentions a little about the confusion about which bones were buried where, but all agree that all members of the Romanov family are now accounted for. It was written after the DNA testing had been done on Anna Anderson.] After The Execution According to Massie's article in the August issue of The New Yorker, the site of the Romanov bones had been discovered in 1979 but were not allowed to be exhumed until July 11, 1991. Dr.Sergei Abramov headed the Russian team to identify the bones. They did not have enough money for DNA testing so they, "matched skull formations to photographs, calculated similarities and probabilities of likeness"("The Last Romanov Mystery" 78). His results showed that the bones are the remains of the Romanov family and that two bodies were missing: Alexi, the tzarevich, and Marie (pictured opposite). Dr.William Maples headed the American team that went to Ekaterinberg to assist in the identification process. Dr.Maples used hip bones and dental remains to conclude that the two missing bodies are Alexi and Anastasia (pictured below) since none of the skeletons, "were young enough to have belonged to Anastasia" ("The Last Romanov Mystery" 82). In Yakov Yurovsky's account of the murders, he states that he burned two bodies near the burial site, one being Alexi and the other he was not able to recall. Dr. Abramov still believes his findings are correct and that Marie was burned along with her brother. Maples claims that his results are more accurate ("The Last Romanov Mystery" 83). A third country entered the scientific investigations, England, headed by Dr. Peter Gill. It is this team that has wrestled with all the DNA testing. To begin, they had to contact distant relatives to the tzar and the empress. The DNA from the blood samples given matched with the DNA from the bones. Along with Abramov and Maples, Gill declared the bones to be those of the Romanov family. Gill's DNA testing does not solve the question regarding the Grand Duchesses. What it does solve is the mystery of Anastasia. While the scientists debate between Anastasia and Marie, we now know that no one survived the execution. In September of 1994, remains left by Anna Anderson (the woman who had the strongest claim as The Grand Duchess) proved that she is not Anastasia Romanov, but a Polish factory worker (The Romanovs 246). On February 25th, 1996, a funeral ceremony was arranged for the last Tzar of Russia and his family in St.Petersburg, and was canceled for the fourth time. The Moscow church states that: "The DNA testing has to be done over again" to verify the identification of the bones ("Bones of Contention" 33). Regardless of scientific data from Russia, England, and the United States all ending with the same conclusion, that the bones are indeed the Romanovs, the Moscow Church is not satisfied. Whether or not the family will be canonized in the ceremony has not been decided but, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has already done that for the imperial family in 1981. "In the meantime, the remains of Nicholas and Alexandra and their children continue to lie on metal tables in a morgue in Siberia" ("Bones of Contention" 33). O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O [A short news item.] The Romanovs. In 1993 bones found two years before in a shallow grave in Ekaterinenburg in Russia, were identified as the remains of the last Tsar, Tsarina and three of their five children, the royal physician and three servants. To prove relationship with the Romanov family, the DNA extracted and amplified by polymerase chain reaction, was compared to a blood sample provided by Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, husband of Queen Elisabeth the second of England, and a grand nephew of the tsarina. Soon after, Anna Anderson Manahan, a US immigrant, deceased in 1984, who had claimed all her life to be the youngest daughter of the last Tsar, Anastasia, supposedly escaped from the bolshevik firing squad, was proved NOT to be who she claimed. Moreover, her DNA very closely matched that of an other immigrant from Pomerania (Germany-Poland), a great nephew of the women Franzisca Schanzkowska. Already in the 1920s a private investigator of the Grand Duke of Hesse had identified Anna Anderson with Schanzkowska. O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O [Another news item that came out after the DNA testing of Anna Anderson ws completed.] TESTS PROVE ANASTASIA CLAIM TO BE FALSE LONDON (Reuter) -- The late Anna Anderson, who for decades claimed to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia, could not have been the youngest daughter of Russia's last tsar, according to tests using blood of the husband of Britain's Queen Elizabeth. Instead, Ms Anderson, 83, who died in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 1984, was identified as being of Polish peasant stock. Doctors compared Ms Anderson's DNA with that of Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, who is related in the intricate web of European royalty to the dead tsarina through his mother. O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O Hope all this is useful to somebody. :) Violet xoxox * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "I'm Glenda, The Good Bitch." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------ End of precious-things-digest V4 #185 *************************************