From: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org (oztori-digest) To: oztori-digest@smoe.org Subject: oztori-digest V2 #385 Reply-To: oztori@smoe.org Sender: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk oztori-digest Thursday, December 26 2002 Volume 02 : Number 385 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [oztori] LOTR Secret Diaries [=?iso-8859-1?q?Audrie=20Tiong?= ] RE: [oztori] OT: Ani D ["ennui" ] [oztori] Two Towers ["Dylan Plant" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 09:49:11 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Audrie=20Tiong?= Subject: [oztori] LOTR Secret Diaries http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243/diaries/ go read! you won't regret it =P Merry X'mas all... audrie Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:06:18 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare ha$h lying around? At 10:08 PM 23/12/2002 -0800, Nadyne Mielke wrote: >--- Nathan . wrote: > > > yes, I know! What dickheads - don't they realise if > > they keep these things (eg. the UTP digipak CD with > > different artwork that was similarly destroyed) they > > can then sell them for like squillions of dollars?!?! > >The original UtP was destroyed at Tori's request, because she didn't like the >artwork. Does anyone know what the original artwork was like? And another thing - Where in the World is Cindy Palmano?? Why did Tori cease using her? >[PT promo] > > > Apparently Atlantic were considering releasing it as a > > single in the US, but changed their minds. > > Fools! > >I don't know if it was a particularly bad decision on their part. They >released five singles for that album anyway (MaaG, SATY, China, Winter, >Crucify). Six is pretty much unheard-of for any album, Alanis? JLP? How many were off that!?! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 22:11:54 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare pancakes lying around? At 08:58 PM 24/12/2002 -0800, Nathan "." wrote: >Nadyne Mielke wrote: > > > {whose best friend in grade school had a -huge- > > Michael Jackson fetish, so > > spent hours with him perfecting the moonwalk and > > trying to glue sequins onto > > single gloves} > >Thanks Nadz, you've just helped me come to make sense >of part of "Pancake": > >"oh Zion please remove your glove" > >is clearly a MJ reference - removing one glove so that >you only have one left ala MJ. Funny - I couldn't see the "Neverland Ranch" marked on the Scarlet's Walk map!! :) >Which brings me to another topic: I thikn Scarlet's >Walk is actually a reference to the moonwalk... but >I'll save that for another e-mail. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare ha$h lying around? - --- AndrewR wrote: > Does anyone know what the original artwork was like? And another thing - Do a web search, or go buy a copy of _Tori Amos Collectibles_ by Paul Campbell, and you'll find lots of pictures. > Where in the World is Cindy Palmano?? Why did Tori cease using her? It was more Cindy's decision than Tori's. She wanted to focus on her family. /nm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:36:59 -0800 (PST) From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare ca$h lying around? - --- Daniel wrote: > what about the Under The Pink promo tape with original > artwork? I remember reading somewhere that the tape > was rarer, but I really don't believe that...I have > one (cost me only $50) and it's signed... More rare != more valuable. More people are interested in the CD than the tape, so the CD is worth significantly more. You got a great deal on the tape, I'd normally place its value around US$150-$250. Likewise, Tori's autograph may or may not increase the value. Getting an item signed by Tori is pretty trivial, so most collectors don't find it worthwhile to pay more for the signature (especially given how many fake signatures have made their way to eBay as of late). /nm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 22:04:17 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Daniel?= Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare ca$h lying around? > More rare != more valuable. Yeah I know. I've got a Kate Bush CD ("Eat The Music" 1 track promo) that I can't shift because despite being quite rare ( only ~50 copies, so not as rare as the UTP originals) - it's so amazingly uninteresting (no sleeve, no cd artwork, just one album track). Still, I got it for free, so no big deal really. > I'd normally place its value around US$150-$250. Whoo! > Getting an item > signed by Tori is pretty trivial, so most collectors > don't find it worthwhile > to pay more for the signature Probably true, but this item isn't going to leave my hands unless I am bankrupt, its the one tori item i've always wanted and when i got it i thought "yes. signed." so i did. xoxo dan ===== I want a table - no, just for one. But I know you do! I can see some from here! Okay, then say for two...no, there's only one. Don't you want my business? I will never come back here! http://www.livejournal.com/~scarydan Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 14:53:03 -0800 (PST) From: Nathan "®" Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare pa$h lying around? Daniel wrote: > > More rare != more valuable. > > Yeah I know. I've got a Kate Bush CD ("Eat The > Music" > 1 track promo) that I can't shift because despite > being quite rare ( only ~50 copies, so not as rare > as > the UTP originals) - it's so amazingly uninteresting > (no sleeve, no cd artwork, just one album track). > Still, I got it for free, so no big deal really. They try and flog the withdrawn UK "Eat the Music" 7" vinyl (was to be the first single off 'The Red Shoes' there - and pressed in only 17 copies) at eil.com for 2000 pounds! (~A$6000). Although I had to laugh as at one point eil.com had TWO copies of the thing, and so their listing said "Low Stock" rather than "Last Copy Available" - kinda funny when there are only 17 of the things floating around. Re: requesting Zero Point @ the concert Dan... can we also have requests for: Fresh Mown Grass To the Fair Motormaids of Japan The Happy Worker ;) (lmao I bet NOBODY has requested this one before.. and Tori hates it apparently) Fire On the Side (done properly @ piano... senza band.) Learn to Fly When I Was Dreaming Thanks in advance... although wouldn't it just be *criminal* if Tori actually DID play any of these.. but nobody managed to boot the show! (or on good enough sound quality.. heheh witness "Live To Tell"... although hey that's another one to request!) Nathan. ===== "Look we've established that I was a total wanker at uni so can you just stop mentioning it? Thanks :)" - - Celia, 9th October 2002. "They don't expect boys to pretend to be nice, but they do with girls, and I'm not a nice person!" - Siobhan Fahey. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 15:02:02 -0800 (PST) From: Nathan "®" Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare recently-deceased Cla$h members lying around? AndrewR wrote, quoting Nadz along ze vay: > >Crucify). Six is pretty much unheard-of for any > album, > > > Alanis? JLP? How many were off that!?! Yup 6: You Oughtta Know Hand In My Pocket Ironic You Learn Head Over Feet All I Really Want And while we're at it... Other albums with 6 or more singles that spring to mind: Paula Abdul "Forever Your Girl" - 6 ;) Janet Jackson "Rhythm Nation 1814" - 6 Michael Jackson "Bad" - 9 Michael Jackson "Dangerous" - 9 Janet Jackson "Janet" - 8 Shania Twain "Come on Over" - 6 ..so it seems mainly the (once) 'big' Americans who do this. ...and if we're going to be totally hideous, you could argue that "Little Earthquakes" had TWELVE singles from it.. since all 12 songs were released as post-card flexi-discs in Poland (or something) ;) And whilst on the topic of anal single things.. It rather IRKS me that US Tori fans (read Denters) talk about Taxi Ride being the 'next' single there.. well HELLO she hasn't technically even had ONE true "single" released off SW in the US. ASF was only a promo release. And there really is no such thing as a "radio only single" - as a single is something you can actually BUY. "Radio only song" would be a more accurate term. Nathan. ===== "Look we've established that I was a total wanker at uni so can you just stop mentioning it? Thanks :)" - - Celia, 9th October 2002. "They don't expect boys to pretend to be nice, but they do with girls, and I'm not a nice person!" - Siobhan Fahey. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: [oztori] Got some spare recently-deceased Cla$h members lying around? - --- Nathan . wrote: [snip] > And whilst on the topic of anal single things.. It > rather IRKS me that US Tori fans (read Denters) talk > about Taxi Ride being the 'next' single there.. well > HELLO she hasn't technically even had ONE true > "single" released off SW in the US. ASF was only a > promo release. If you're going to get your knickers knotted over so easily, I'd suggest avoiding the ex-Dent forums. The last time I checked in any of those places, the average age was somewhere around eight (as was the average IQ). Regardless, ASF may have not have seen a commercial release, but it is considered a single by the music industry. The music industry doesn't think in terms of songs, only in singles. Such a designation has never had anything to do with a commercial release. They'll refer to radio-only singles and commercial singles, but it still comes down to a single. You can insist that it's a song and not a single, but your insistence doesn't change the terminology used by the record industry. Nathan's terminology != real world. Commercial singles have always been a small market in the US, but now many record labels aren't bothering to release them at all except for the biggest artists. A single being 'released to radio' is probably all that we're going to get. :( I'm sure that this is the point where you say something like 'but [insert big artist here] released [insert shitty single here], but the fact of the matter is that there are far fewer singles being released. Pointing to one artist with one US single doesn't change that there are less of 'em available. Couple the US market moving away from singles with the bloody annoying UK rules that limit the content of singles, and singles as a whole are dying a painful death. That's a bigger issue than how the ex-Dent-forum-kiddies refer to a release. /nm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 16:45:58 -0800 (PST) From: Nathan "®" Subject: [oztori] If I had to do it all again.. I wouldn't change a SINGLE thing Naydz wrote: > If you're going to get your knickers knotted over so > easily, I'd suggest > avoiding the ex-Dent forums. Nah it doesn't really get me in *that* much of a bother that steams starts pouring from my ears... as always, I just exaggerate these things for dramatic effect =) > Regardless, ASF may have not have seen a commercial > release, but it is > considered a single by the music industry. Yeah I know with how the whole singles thing is totally screwed in the US. Unfortunately... 'tseems the rest of the world (bar perhaps the UK where actual-singles-you-can-buy-in-the-shops are still 'relatively' relevant) is following suit. > Nathan's > terminology != real world. lol I think that is the first time in a long while anyone thought I was connected to the 'real' world ;) > Commercial singles have always been a small market > in the US, but now many > record labels aren't bothering to release them at > all except for the biggest > artists. The trouble is... once upon a time I used to be an avid follower of muzak charts... and I really don't see the point of the US having a singles chart that is based on mostly airplay?! I mean, DJ's can pretty much play what they like (or rather, what their management & record co's dictate to them to play)... so how is such a chart valid? (Yes, I know there are big issues with supposed 'sales' charts as well). And how on earth do they measure the 'no. of spins' a song gets anyway? Do they pay ppl to sit glued to their radios 24/7 listening to EVERY station imagineable.. and then get them to add 1 to the tally to every song they hear getting played? (presuming they actually know what song it is for a start). Does that mean songs played on 'golded oldies' stations get counted towards the charts too? (yeah I know they don't, I'm just trying to illustrate a point). Oh dear 'tseems I'm now getting myself in a knot over this too.. hehehe. *takes deep calm breath and counts to 10* > A single being 'released to radio' is > probably all that we're going > to get. :( I know. It's such a shame for those of us who actually still like to have physical CD's with artwork & b-sides, etc. Of course there are still promo's to get, but they usually don't have b-sides on them. I would much rather have Tombigbee, f'rinstance, on an actual CD than just downloading an mp3 from the net. Even in Australia, Tori ain't had a single since January 2000 (1000 Oceans). Not that her singles ever sold here, so I can kinda see their point in cutting losses.. but still... they could press small quantities of them surely if they wanted. > Couple the US market moving away from singles with > the bloody annoying UK rules > that limit the content of singles, Yes I know! Something like you can have a maximum of 3 formats that count towards the chart (eg. 2 CD's and a cassingle).. and a maximum of 3 different titles per CD.. and it has to clock in at less than 15 (20?) minutes or something. Stoopid. > and singles as a > whole are dying a painful > death. That's a bigger issue than how the > ex-Dent-forum-kiddies refer to a > release. Agreed! Nathan. ===== "Look we've established that I was a total wanker at uni so can you just stop mentioning it? Thanks :)" - - Celia, 9th October 2002. "They don't expect boys to pretend to be nice, but they do with girls, and I'm not a nice person!" - Siobhan Fahey. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:52:10 +1100 From: "Rachael" Subject: Re: [oztori] If I had to do it all again.. I wouldn't change a SINGLE thing - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan ." To: Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 11:45 AM Subject: [oztori] If I had to do it all again.. I wouldn't change a SINGLE thing > I mean, DJ's can pretty much play what they like well, i dont know about America, but they certainly can't here, not even triple j. every station in melbourne (except triple r and a few other community ones) is totally playlisted. rachael xxx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 18:37:11 -0800 (PST) From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: [oztori] If I had to do it all again.. I wouldn't change a SINGLE thing - --- Nathan . wrote: > The trouble is... once upon a time I used to be an > avid follower of muzak charts... and I really don't > see the point of the US having a singles chart that is > based on mostly airplay?! I mean, DJ's can pretty > much play what they like (or rather, what their > management & record co's dictate to them to play)... > so how is such a chart valid? (Yes, I know there are > big issues with supposed 'sales' charts as well). Yeah, DJs can play what they like, but historically they've taken requests. Now, with the rise of the huge conglomerate radio stations that play the same 'format' in every market (read: large-ish city) in which they have a station, it's even less valid than it has been before. Some of the bigger conglomerates, such as ClearChannel, are actually doing away with local radio stations entirely. They just rebroadcast a signal from [wherever]. Don't even get me started on how bloody wrong that is. > And > how on earth do they measure the 'no. of spins' a song > gets anyway? Do they pay ppl to sit glued to their > radios 24/7 listening to EVERY station imagineable.. > and then get them to add 1 to the tally to every song > they hear getting played? (presuming they actually > know what song it is for a start). US Radio stations have to keep track of which songs they play, and at what time. They have to keep track of that for artist royalties. The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) spot-checks radio stations occasionally to ensure that they're meeting the guidelines. > Does that mean > songs played on 'golded oldies' stations get counted > towards the charts too? (yeah I know they don't, I'm > just trying to illustrate a point). The charts are currently broken up by format. There's 'adult contemporary', 'top 40', 'country', and a bunch of others that I can't recall. > I know. It's such a shame for those of us who > actually still like to have physical CD's with artwork > & b-sides, etc. Of course there are still promo's to > get, but they usually don't have b-sides on them. I > would much rather have Tombigbee, f'rinstance, on an > actual CD than just downloading an mp3 from the net. You don't even get to download an MP3 from the 'net. You have to use their proprietary format, which (the last I checked, anyway) only supports Windows users. You don't get anything that you can save to your hard drive, you have to be connected to the 'net. This is a deeply flawed model. We've already seen that with the videos on the TVaB singles, which are now no longer available 'cause the server to which you must connect to view 'em is down. {This isn't, strictly speaking, true. The videos themselves are actually on the CD. They use a non-standard MPEG header file to force the server look-up to play the video. Older MPEG players will ignore the non-standard header. Alternately, you can use a program to strip out the non-standard bits, then play it in any moderm MPEG player. But only a computer geek is going to do the legwork to find this out at all, let alone figure out how to view them now.} The music business does not understand music online. They're entirely clueless. They whinge about sales being down and pointing to the use of various music-swapping sites/applications, but they fail to look internally and see that they are releasing vastly fewer albums from fewer artists. > Even in Australia, Tori ain't had a single since > January 2000 (1000 Oceans). Not that her singles ever > sold here, so I can kinda see their point in cutting > losses.. but still... they could press small > quantities of them surely if they wanted. The quantity pressed doesn't matter. It's not the materials used in making the CDs that is the limiting factor. The cost of making the original from which the copies are made is, by far, the most expensive portion of the production process. CDs are dirt cheap to press, and the liner is even cheaper (especially when many record companies tend to cut corners on their Australian pressings and use cheaper cardstock for the liners). The difference between pressing 1000 CDs and 10,000 CDs is only a few dollars. > Yes I know! Something like you can have a maximum of > 3 formats that count towards the chart (eg. 2 CD's and > a cassingle).. and a maximum of 3 different titles per > CD.. and it has to clock in at less than 15 (20?) > minutes or something. Stoopid. Yeah, and they limit of the number of songs that can go on it, and they're doing something to limit multimedia content as well. I've given up on following the particulars because it's too annoying. I really don't understand the thought process behind this, but then I can't claim to understand the record industry anyway. /nm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 18:53:17 -0800 (PST) From: Nathan "®" Subject: Re: [oztori] If I had to do it all again.. I wouldn't change a SINGLE thing Nadyne Mielke wrote: > > would much rather have Tombigbee, f'rinstance, on > an > > actual CD than just downloading an mp3 from the > net. > > You don't even get to download an MP3 from the 'net. > You have to use their > proprietary format, which (the last I checked, > anyway) only supports Windows > users. You don't get anything that you can save to > your hard drive, you have > to be connected to the 'net. This is a deeply > flawed model. ...and then rely on some techno-spark to make a semi-decent mp3 to share with the likes of hereinmyhead.com > The music business does not understand music online. > They're entirely > clueless. Yay - Naydz is the new 'voice of a generation' ;) > They whinge about sales being down and > pointing to the use of > various music-swapping sites/applications, but they > fail to look internally and > see that they are releasing vastly fewer albums from > fewer artists. ...with rapidly-diminishing quality of those 'artists' (PopStars anyone?). 'tseems the record industry have never heard of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". > The quantity pressed doesn't matter. It's not the > materials used in making the > CDs that is the limiting factor. The cost of making > the original from which > the copies are made is, by far, the most expensive > portion of the production > process. CDs are dirt cheap to press, and the liner > is even cheaper > (especially when many record companies tend to cut > corners on their Australian > pressings and use cheaper cardstock for the liners). Yup. Gotta love those Australian-pressed Tori singles in cheap card-wallet sleeves. > Yeah, and they limit of the number of songs that can > go on it, and they're > doing something to limit multimedia content as well. > I've given up on > following the particulars because it's too annoying. > I really don't understand > the thought process behind this, but then I can't > claim to understand the > record industry anyway. I think the thought behind it was.. maybe at one point record companies could 'rig' the charts by releasing 10 different formats of every release - eg. some Garbage singles in the UK had 3 different CD's... then others have 12", 7", cassette, poster-pack, whatever-stupid-freebie-they-can-think-of-to-help-sell-it pack... etc. I remember Pearl Jam's "Go" was 'banned' from the charts in the UK because it came with a free cassingle. I guess the idea is extended to the number of different tracks you can have on a CD single - since if you have 5 different songs on a CD single, it is basically 'half an album', and hence the buyer is getting 'better value' for their $, so they might tend to buy more of those singles than one which only has 2 tracks on it? Although now most CD singles in the UK come in 2-part releases... so if say a song at #1 only marginally beats the one at #2... yet #1 has 2 different CD-singles.. and #2 has only 1... technically you could argue that the #2 song has done better than the one at #1 which has relied on more 'gimmicky' things to get it there. Then in Australia you get eg. Kylie singles which they delete after their first week of sales - so they debut high and 'advertise' the album - eg. "contains 3 top 5 hits" or something - yet don't detract from the sales of the album too much since people who are slow to catch on to the song are then 'forced' to buy the whole album (more profit for the record co) if the single has been deleted & is no longer available (or was never released at all, as is becoming an increasing trend). ..which some argue is actually doing more harm than good for record sales, since are people really going to fork out $25 for a CD when they just want/know the 1 song? Why would you do that if you can download the 1 song for free? "It's about giving people choice".. and if you manipulate things too much by not making singles available.. then 'people' will look elsewhere. (Although still I suppose who would fork out the $ for a single even - which are way over-priced, when you can get it for free I guess). To throw in Tori content - then you get the likes of Tori who chastises her over-eager fans for downloading songs early & thinks she can miracurously stop downloading by glueing CD players shut (admittedly it seemed to work OK) & enticing ppl to buy the original thing with stupid gimmicks like 'trinkets' and a web-site which from all reports sounds so shit I've not even bothered to look at it almost 2 months after I got the CD :) Nathan. ===== "Look we've established that I was a total wanker at uni so can you just stop mentioning it? Thanks :)" - - Celia, 9th October 2002. "They don't expect boys to pretend to be nice, but they do with girls, and I'm not a nice person!" - Siobhan Fahey. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 15:19:01 +1100 From: "cåth ." Subject: [oztori] OT airport scared! hey everyone, just a quick note to let you know i won't be posting for the next month, i'll be overseas AND SEEING TORI (yay dan yay kate!) i'm at the airport, and i'm freaking out. my livejournal will be updated as often as i can http://www.livejournal.com/users/cathcath see ya on the other side! kate, dan, see you in london dahlings!!! <3 cath _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:06:38 +0800 From: "ennui" Subject: RE: [oztori] OT: Ani D >Just wondering if anyone here was planning to go to the Ani Difranco / Bob >Dylan show in Sydney in feb? >Jas whawhawha!!? please tell me she's gracing perth :) e n [ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:48:03 +1100 From: "Dylan Plant" Subject: [oztori] Two Towers OK, went 2 see Two Towers 2day. Quickie review: Ending sucks. Be warned. No Shelob - was really looking forward 2 that!!!!! Frodo winds up in Osgiliath - doesn't happen in the book. Not enuff time spent on the Ents!!!!!! But overall still a farking good moofie...just not as good as the first i don't think.... Bashing may now commence I guess Dylan PS got interviewed by the Herald Sun when me and Bec came out...so we could be in da paper 2morrow! LOL now there's an achievement...... ------------------------------ End of oztori-digest V2 #385 ****************************