From: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org (oztori-digest) To: oztori-digest@smoe.org Subject: oztori-digest V2 #232 Reply-To: oztori@smoe.org Sender: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk oztori-digest Saturday, August 10 2002 Volume 02 : Number 232 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course ["Too Much" <2much@elvis.co] Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course ["lb" ] Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course ["Too Much" <2much@elvis.co] Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course ["lb" ] Re: [oztori] the whole world's gone gay [AndrewR Subject: RE: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course "AndrewR" wrote: > > Responding To: "nina riddel" > <nina_riddel@hotmail.com> > Original Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:55:33 +1000 > > > I don't think it's productive to insist that the > characters are gay, but > > nobody's really doing that here. It's just a bit of > FUN! :) > > Indeed. I just don't think it really is that apparent > with Frodo and Sam > like Rebecca said, Peter Jackson/Sean Astin/Elijah Wood > brought the > characters to the screen as the best of friends not two > gay guys on a > lembas-fuelled jaunt to Middle-Earth hot-spot/gay > night-club "Mount Doom" > :) Or perhaps you are just a tad too emotionally invested in LOTR to be able to "let go" & imagine the characters you relate to on a hetero male basis deviating from the norm... It's OK, Andy, it happens, I was really pissed off when it looked like Mulder was going to spurn Scully for that ex-bitch of his in Season 5... :) H. too much of a diary: http://2much.livejournal.com/ and you can laugh a spineless laugh we hope your rules and wisdom choke you - ------------------------------------------------- Get your free @Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com! http://www.elvis.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:39:10 +0930 From: "lb" Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course > whatever... to me it's not looking for a role model, > it's just a fun thing to do, like writing slash > fiction. and looking for people with similar qualities > to oneself is just human. lighten up for once... > > H. Why is Becc 'unlight'? And since when did Becc have this reputation? Why was I not told about this fascinating and bitchy relationship? And was Becc even told? They're her views - and she stated them WHILE validating yours (& co). Quite nice really. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:54:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Too Much" <2much@elvis.com> Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course "lb" wrote: > > > whatever... to me it's not looking for a role model, > > it's just a fun thing to do, like writing slash > > fiction. and looking for people with similar qualities > > to oneself is just human. lighten up for once... > > > > H. > > Why is Becc 'unlight'? And since when did Becc have > this reputation? Why was > I not told about this fascinating and bitchy > relationship? And was Becc even > told? > Since when was Becc incapable of defending herself? Since when did you become her spokeswoman? But, since you seem bent on being so, I shall attempt some self-justification... Becc's original interpretation of Bevan's reading of LOTR was: "this apparent need by the queer world of queer role models. I understand it, and I can appreciate the positives of having celebrities that everyone loves (etc) coming out as queer and maybe opening a few minds in the process... but why queer people need/want to see similar things bothers me still. Looking for signs of queerness in everyone you find intelligent/attractive/etc just seems so awful, so "we need reassurance that we're okay" which I just found too heavy for my tastes. It is something queer people do a lot--smirking at supposedly straight characters/situations and reading into it a complexity of meaning. I don't think it is a quest for validation or "role models", more a human process of finding someone like oneself. Above all, as Nina reiterated, it is just something fun to do. That's why I suggested Becc should "lighten up" & not take Bevan's comments so seriously. > They're her views - and she stated them WHILE > validating yours (& co). Quite > nice really. Well I am eternally grateful to Becc & will be her faithful serf for the rest of her life... H. too much of a diary: http://2much.livejournal.com/ and you can laugh a spineless laugh we hope your rules and wisdom choke you - ------------------------------------------------- Get your free @Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com! http://www.elvis.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:14:37 +0930 From: "lb" Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course henry: > Since when was Becc incapable of defending herself? > Since when did you become her spokeswoman? But, since > you seem bent on being so, I shall attempt some > self-justification... Becc's arms were actually amputated this morning after a somewhat horrific encounter with a giant shark with large mutations on its forehead. She asks you to all kindly accept her inability to answer personally at the moment, and to accept my new role as spokesperson. She also requested that we share a moment of silence for her, and the two arms that she has so tragically lost. There will be a burial tomorrow for those that are interested. Henry: > which I just found too heavy for my tastes. Emphasis on *your tastes* then, please! No need to go around casting aspersions all over Becc's amputated body just 'cause her views don't gel nicely with yours... >It is > something queer people do a lot--smirking at supposedly > straight characters/situations and reading into it a > complexity of meaning. Well maybe we should all support Becc for breaking the stereotype. I am sure that she has suffered severely for it within her gay, amputated clique. > I don't think it is a quest for > validation or "role models", more a human process of > finding someone like oneself. Above all, as Nina > reiterated, it is just something fun to do. I actually agree with you. I think it's amusing. But I think Becc's take on it is valid, and you shouldn't - in my opinion - make your comments personal when it's just a matter of opinion. > That's why I suggested Becc should "lighten up" & not > take Bevan's comments so seriously. Maybe *you* should lighten up, hey? hey? > Well I am eternally grateful to Becc & will be her > faithful serf for the rest of her life... no no, serfs were emancipated a long time ago... that's just backward. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:39:20 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] the whole world's gone gay At 02:20 8/08/2002 -0700, Nathan "." wrote: >I don't think I've contributed to this list for about >2 days (*gasp*!), so here I make my grand return for >all you hangers-on-of-Nayth's-every-word... >Add: > >* Vanity Smurf (actually, all of the smurfs really > when you think about it) > Well the question is how did they reproduce? Smurfette was actually a Smurf created by Gargamel. I can't remember where "Sassette" came from. I think it was about the time they were "retooling" the show :) They made a few of the smurfs young. Added "Grandpa Smurf" and some dog. >* Velma from Scooby Doo InDEEDY! >* Bugs Bunny (well drag queen - seemed to like > dressing up as a gal too much; always seen gnawing > on elongated objects; "what's up" doc could be > interpreted ambiguously...) > >* Yo Semite Sam - just the 'stache. > LOL! What is he some village-people-type cartoon!?! :o) >* Bananaman (spandex & the name says it all) I thought that a particularly strange 'superhero' it was a BOY who seemed to undergo puberty into some muscle-bound superhero!?! Hello!?! And how did he undergo this (assumingly very painful) transformation? Eating a banana! :) Some more: The two gophers from the Bug Bunny/Warner Brothers cartoons... they lived under a vege patch and said "Thank Yoh!" :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:44:12 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course At 18:14 9/08/2002 +0930, lb wrote: >henry: > >> Since when was Becc incapable of defending herself? >> Since when did you become her spokeswoman? But, since >> you seem bent on being so, I shall attempt some >> self-justification... > >Becc's arms were actually amputated this morning after a somewhat horrific >encounter with a giant shark with large mutations on its forehead. She asks >you to all kindly accept her inability to answer personally at the moment, >and to accept my new role as spokesperson. > >She also requested that we share a moment of silence for her, and the two >arms that she has so tragically lost. There will be a burial tomorrow for >those that are interested. > "too bad the burial was premature, she said and smiled." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:52:36 +1000 (EST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Julian=20P?= Subject: [oztori] The hideous hideous truth about Smurfs AndrewR asked: >Well the question is how did they reproduce? Smurfette was actually a Smurf >created by Gargamel. I can't remember where "Sassette" came from. I think >it was about the time they were "retooling" the show :) They made a few of >the smurfs young. Added "Grandpa Smurf" and some dog. Duh, the Stork brought the baby Smurfs! (No, really!) Hmn, I remember that, as a kid, I actually had a lot of trouble with the episode where they revealed that Smurfette and Sasette weren't "real" Smurfs, but were abominations created by Gargamel. I mean, how fucking misogynist is that?? That's it! I'm starting I letter writing campaign to get that show pulled from the air! (Hey, the banned Speedy Gonzales in the US because it was considered racist -- a ban that was only lifted last month -- so I'm thinking I have a chance.) Jules - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:07:43 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: Re: [oztori] The hideous hideous truth about Smurfs >Hmn, I remember that, as a kid, I actually had a lot of trouble with the >episode where they revealed that Smurfette and Sasette weren't "real" >Smurfs, but were abominations created by Gargamel. I mean, how fucking >misogynist is that?? almost as misoynistic as the fact that sassette's "femaleness" is conveyed as "sass" and that smurfette's role (unlike the male smurfs who have jobs or skills or, admittedly, somtime sjust flaws) is being "ette"... can we say "othering"?? :) Roozi ps. does "taxi ride" make any other non smokers wish they did? (wow tori content!!) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:09:35 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: Re: [oztori] the whole world's gone gay >Added "Grandpa Smurf" and some dog. i belive it was imaginatively named "puppy" Roozi "god is gay, and you were right" - -Sonic Youth _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:15:41 +1000 (EST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Julian=20P?= Subject: Re: [oztori] The hideous hideous truth about Smurfs Roozi noted: >almost as misoynistic as the fact that sassette's "femaleness" is conveyed >as "sass" and that smurfette's role (unlike the male smurfs who have jobs or >skills or, admittedly, somtime sjust flaws) is being "ette"... can we say >"othering"?? No Roozi, Smurfette had a full time role ... being Vanity Smurf's fag hag (proof: watch the Cartoon Network Smurf promo ad). But, in Smurfette's (and the show's creators) defence, Smurfette was the only Smurf (other than Papa Smurf) who wasn't a complete idiot. Hmn ... can I add you to my Down with Smurfs campaign? Can I print you a DWS T-shirt? (I can have them printed as the same time as I make my much-talked-about "6.58" and "just say yes you little arsonist" T-shirts.) Jules - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:20:25 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: Re: [oztori] the whole world's gone gay >He probably contracted the virus from shooting up with >Bert & Ernie. No, in South Africa he (or she?) would have almost certainly contracted HIV via heterosexual sex. S/he would also statistically be very likely to be black and poor... Roozi (whose lecturer just came back from Sth Africa) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:35:34 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course >Sigh ;o) Why >can't good friends be just good friends anymore? hmm... i know you aren't *really* homophobic andy pandy, but that statement is pretty dodgy... like the potential that they are gay somehow cheapens the idea of friendship... would you say that if people thought there was sexual tension between a male and female character? not that i give a rats arse about lotr, mind you... and "just good friends" has been the biggets way in which homosexuality has always been silenced! hello!! love and kisses Roozi (who isn't angry anymore) _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 04:37:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan "®" Subject: [oztori] Who has an amputee fetishist pregnant boyfriend that tweets in a South African accent? lb wrote: > There will be > a burial tomorrow for > those that are interested. Shouldn't that be, "There will be a burial tomorrow for those WHO are interested"? > No need to > go around casting > aspersions all over Becc's amputated body Are you an amputee fetishist? > Well maybe we should all support Becc for breaking > the stereotype. I am sure > that she has suffered severely for it within her > gay, amputated clique. lol there probably is some 'gayamputees' yahoo club. AndrewR wrote of the smurfs: > Well the question is how did they reproduce? They were ahead of our society in terms of reproductive technology, and discovered how to make men have babies. > >* Yo Semite Sam - just the 'stache. > > > > LOL! What is he some village-people-type cartoon!?! > :o) Yes. "YMCA" is a veiled reference to YSS. > Some more: The two gophers from the Bug Bunny/Warner > Brothers cartoons... > they lived under a vege patch and said "Thank Yoh!" > :) Yeah they were cool. Tweety Bird is another kinda ambiguous sexuality cartoon character. I found it hard to figure out if it was meant to be a he or a she. Julian P wrote: > No Roozi, Smurfette had a full time role ... being > Vanity Smurf's fag hag lol! Roozi "riot poofter" wrote: > (whose lecturer just came back from Sth Africa) South Africans have the coolest accent! I'm working on being able to mimic it effectively. Nathan. ===== "They don't expect boys to pretend to be nice, but they do with girls, and I'm not a nice person!" - Siobhan Fahey. _______________________________________________________________________ HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 04:47:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan "®" Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course Woozi wrote: > not that i give a rats arse about lotr, mind you... That's very rat-o-phobic. Where would modern medicine, or blasphemous Tori clips (yay got some content) for that matter, be without the wonderful contribution rats have made to this planet. > and "just good friends" has been the biggets way in > which homosexuality has > always been silenced! hello!! Mmmmmmmm Tori allegedly penned a tune (my god this e-mail is chockers with Tori shit!) titled "More Than Just A Friend" when she was 12 or something. Could it be a veiled first lesbian crush? > love and kisses You just *had* to throw in a Dannii reference, didn't you? Nathan. ===== "They don't expect boys to pretend to be nice, but they do with girls, and I'm not a nice person!" - Siobhan Fahey. _______________________________________________________________________ HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:00:01 GMT From: Rebecca Appleton Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:39:10 +0930, lb wrote: >>whatever... to me it's not looking for a role model, >>it's just a fun thing to do, like writing slash >>fiction. and looking for people with similar qualities >>to oneself is just human. lighten up for once... >> >>H. > >Why is Becc 'unlight'? And since when did Becc have this reputation? >Why was >I not told about this fascinating and bitchy relationship? And was >Becc even >told? > >They're her views - and she stated them WHILE validating yours (& >co). Quite >nice really. > Thanks li. Didn't really appreciate the whole "lighten up for a change" crap much, either. I was stating an opinion that anyone can agree or disagree with; I don't care; it's just conversation. ~R. :) - -- www.crappism.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:05:37 GMT From: Rebecca Appleton Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:54:07 -0700 (PDT), Too Much wrote: >Since when was Becc incapable of defending herself? >Since when did you become her spokeswoman? > Since when did Becc *have* to defend herself? Becc has better things to do with her time. ~R. - -- www.crappism.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:25:08 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: [oztori] What happened to Hootie and the Blowfish? At 20:07 9/08/2002 +1000, riot poofter wrote: >ps. does "taxi ride" make any other non smokers wish they did? (wow tori >content!!) Aren't "Taxi Ride" an adult contempory music band!?! ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:36:58 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course At 20:35 9/08/2002 +1000, riot poofter wrote: >>Sigh ;o) Why >>can't good friends be just good friends anymore? > >hmm... i know you aren't *really* homophobic andy pandy, but that statement >is pretty dodgy... like the potential that they are gay somehow cheapens the >idea of friendship... would you say that if people thought there was sexual >tension between a male and female character? I disagree totally with your assessment of my comment. I'm saying that throwing SEX into the mix is NOT what Frodo and Sam's relation ship is about. A lot of things these days are catapulted into a 'sexual' slant. Homosexual, Bisexual, Heterosexual, Trisexual, Pansexual, Omnisexual, Pseudosexual, Asexual, Retrosexual, Chronosexual - what ever ;) (Ok someone try and work out definitions for some of those! ;) What I am saying is there is not enough shit out there with good friends anymore - it's either antagonist/protagonist, hero/sidekick, hero/sexual fling/partner. Yes, there's a whole lot of Spock/Kirk fiction out there - and it's quite funny - but Watch Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn - that ending gets me every time. "I will and always shall be... your friend... live long... and prosper..." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:53:06 GMT From: Rebecca Appleton Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:36:58 +1000, AndrewR wrote: >At 20:35 9/08/2002 +1000, riot poofter wrote: >>>Sigh ;o) Why >>>can't good friends be just good friends anymore? >> >>hmm... i know you aren't *really* homophobic andy pandy, but that >>statement >>is pretty dodgy... like the potential that they are gay somehow >>cheapens the >>idea of friendship... would you say that if people thought there >>was sexual >>tension between a male and female character? > >I disagree totally with your assessment of my comment. As do I, for the record. (Roozi, your comment was entirely friendaphobic! ;) ) I see it as equally pointless, whether the pair in question is male-male, male-female, female-female, or whatever, when people try to read things into story lines that simply aren't there. I guess I've yet to understand why, just because I'm queer, I should start disregarding the efforts of filmmakers to communicate something, in favour of reading into it whatever I feel the need to see. Can anyone give me some advice on how to stop being so heavy, and fit into the stereotype I'm expected to? ~R. :> - -- www.crappism.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:52:19 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course >I disagree totally with your assessment of my comment. well, der... the point was that in *context* that remark was dodgy. the point is that "friendship" is used to obscure queerness and that people only ever get upset about friendship being construed as more when it involves charactyers of the opposite sex... i mean noone seems to question the idea that arwen and strider (sorry if thats wrong character... the dark haired spunk i mean) are more than friends... and as for YOU becc, well, yeah, your bit about being required to see something you want to see because you are queer is typical backlash... you don't *have* to see any of this stuff, but i still think queer people should only encourage queer readings of things like this... and that brings me to the crucial point: these are only readingS. plural. there are lots of other possibilities and no-one is trying to put these readings out there as uncontestable "truth", so it is particularly banal and unhelpful to dismiss them out of hand... so ner. Roozi _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:55:07 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course >>That's very rat-o-phobic. Where would modern >medicine there's a greta book out on rats at the moment which argues that they were not to blame for the plague... looks really good... oh how i love cultural history! >"More Than >Just A Friend" when she was 12 or something. Could it >be a veiled first lesbian crush? she has explicitly said it was abotu a guy... > > love and kisses > >You just *had* to throw in a Dannii reference, didn't >you? yes. yes i did. hehehehehehehe Roozi _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:06:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Too Much" <2much@elvis.com> Subject: Re: [oztori] lord of the rings - ot of course On Fri, 09 August 2002, "riot poofter" wrote: > > >Sigh ;o) Why > >can't good friends be just good friends anymore? > > and "just good friends" has been the biggets way in > which homosexuality has > always been silenced! hello!! > I would just like to add: "Hear, hear" and "Roozi is gorgeous" ;) H. too much of a diary: http://2much.livejournal.com/ and you can laugh a spineless laugh we hope your rules and wisdom choke you - ------------------------------------------------- Get your free @Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com! http://www.elvis.com ------------------------------ End of oztori-digest V2 #232 ****************************