From: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org (oztori-digest) To: oztori-digest@smoe.org Subject: oztori-digest V2 #134 Reply-To: oztori@smoe.org Sender: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-oztori-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk oztori-digest Monday, May 6 2002 Volume 02 : Number 134 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [oztori] OT: LOTR (again) [=?iso-8859-1?q?Daniel?= ] Re: [oztori] Chappa'ai [AndrewR ] Re: [oztori] phew for a minute there I lost myself... [AndrewR ] [oztori] Speaking of Tape People [AndrewR ] Re: [oztori] #oztori [AndrewR ] Re: re : Re: [oztori] Don\'t project, don\'t connect, protect, Don\'t expect, suggest. ["riot poofter" ] [oztori] posters: cate blanchett, lotr ["riot poofter" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 03:42:51 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Daniel?= Subject: Re: [oztori] OT: LOTR (again) > also - i'm currently mid way through making a tacky > mix tape and i was > hoping u guys could help me out with some > suggestions - some of the tracks > i've already used are... banananananananarama! - "Love in the 1st Degree". "I Want You Back" (shhh! *grin*) kylie minogue - early crap! shocked...better the devil you know...step back in time... dead or alive - you spin me round... okay my tackiness quota for the day is exhausted... ===== I have a fish nailed to a cross on my apartment wall It sings to me with glassy eyes and quotes from Kafka Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 19:45:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan R Subject: Re: [oztori] Sew Excellent! (heheh aka "I am very good at sewing" - AndrewR will understand ;) Kate Findlay wrote of Kylie Mole's "So Excellent": > hmm...couldn't find it anywhere :( if u dub it i'll > luv u foreva *flutters > eyelashes* What, you *don't* luv me foreva already? :( OK I can do it.. Although may not be a super-duper 'A1' quality dubbing... But it will be 'adequate' surely. What's your address? ;) (see, I wasn't doing this just out of the 'kindness' of my heart.. but rather, I wanna come stalk you). Of the tape/CD trade sujeshchun: > yeah i'm up for that! but i'm not organising it this > time (don't have time > anymore... Haha... OH the painstaking HOURS it takes to randomly pair up about 10 names!!! > maybe someone with an over-abundance of > time *cough* nathan > *cough* could organise it???) If I must. Who wants to take part? Nathan! . Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 12:28:14 GMT From: Rebecca Appleton Subject: Re: [oztori] Mix CD/tape trade suggestion? On Sat, 4 May 2002 16:58:25 -0700 (PDT), Nathan R wrote: >Speaking of this 'what song should I dub' thing... > >Remember a few years back and we did a 'tape/CD trade' >thing.. where someone (Kate?) paired us up with >someone we sent a mixed tape/CD of stuff to? Should >we do that again? *waits for jury's decision* You mean that actually went smoothly for some people? I never quite got around to sending mine (sorry, whoever it was!) cuz my stereo with the cassette desk happened to die at just the wrong (right?) moment. But then, I never received a tape from the person who was supposed to send to me, either, so it all worked out quite fairly in the end. ~Becc :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:26:29 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Daniel?= Subject: Re: [oztori] phew for a minute there I lost myself... > I don't remember (since I wasn't there) but I must > confess I am something of a > mixed tape fiend... Sadly I am very Rob of High > Fidelity & whenever I really > like someone, I spend hours choosing exactly the > right songs to fit on a 120m. > tape that will explain myself almost perfectly to my > person of the moment. > There's just something so special about handmade > compilation tapes... Please, that is the ONLY way to be re: mix tapes/CDs...so many people think its just a bunch of thrown together songs...and that is just so WRONG!!! Kate - please regale us all with tales of your current mix-taping :) Also, Nayth - count me in if you're organising a tape (or in my case, CD-R) trading tree... ===== I have a fish nailed to a cross on my apartment wall It sings to me with glassy eyes and quotes from Kafka Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:44:23 GMT From: Rebecca Appleton Subject: Re: re : Re: [oztori] Don\'t project, don\'t connect, protect, Don\'t expect, suggest. On Sun, 05 May 2002 13:08:00 +1000, Divine Miss M wrote: >However, is inability to see what they did for the music rocknroll >industry as a whole, and to see what they achieved with the >recording >equipment they had (one of his other arguments is that they are >badly >produced albums). Did he actually dispute their _influence_? If he has, my response now is completely pointless, but you'll have to excuse me cuz I've really just been skimming emails lately in an attempt to get the avalanche out of my Procrastination Central folder. When Roozi wrote that first email, I actually went to write a rebuttal myself, cuz I agree entirely with what Miss M's written here, and what a few other people have written. Just because someone happens to belong to the most priveleged social group of the time doesn't mean they can't have talent, be influential, blah blah blah. But reading back over his email, I don't think he said that. What I recall was the word "overrated", which is really nothing more than an opinion derived from the fact that he clearly doesn't like them. He's allowed to be wrong. ;) I certainly would never go so far as to say that The Beatles invented rock n roll, mind you. They most certainly didn't. And probably not pop either, though my brain's not doing a fantastic job of locating the stuff I learnt in my 'From Elvis to Madonna...' (history of rock n roll) class. But the Beatles are good. I was raised on 'em and I like 'em and that's that. ~Becc (has spoken) :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:40:39 +1000 From: Jonceski Jasmina Subject: Re: [oztori] #oztori > Does anyone ever use #oztori these days? One day I thought I wrote something about that but I don't know if I sent it.... Someone (I won't say who...I say he seems to have a major disliking for the majority of this community and a few of you in particular he completely detests)...ummm....so hard not to give away who it was....allowed the channel to de-register and just majorly pissed me off when he did this... and well, no one was ever there anyways...I was there sometimes and Steve H was there sometimes and Nathan was there occasionally and Dylan got there sometimes, and then Rach moved to England and her appearances declined, Dan C (the lurker ;), my pool buddy ;)) was there rarely, Andy R was there occasionally, Cath was there a few times, as was Kate, Dan H showed his ugly mug once or twice, as did Roozi, Andrew D showed up occasionally, and Neri did too, even Dan G came along once or twice (just to show how godly he is to tthe list, me thinks ;)), so did many others who I tend to forget the name of...as well as the person who owned the channel and de-registered it.... umm...that is all I'll stop this boring rant ;) Jas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:45:58 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: [oztori] Boney M Hah hah - made you look ;) At 16:45 30/03/2002 +1100, riot poofter wrote: >>Heh. Got it on my "'88 Kix On" cassette... along with >>the truly wonderful (?) Sabrina's "Boys (Summertime >>Love)"! >no, not if they are going to be a number one... huge sellers by rthe likes >of shakira et al are usaully 4.95... kasey chambers' is 1.95 > $1.95!?!!!! That's cheap! I was happy I got "Hands Clean" for $4.95 > >>Plus 'back in the day' you were more likely to get >>b-sides (well one b-side I s'pose). These days you >>get about 7 mixes of the same fucking song. > >yes and a lot of people buy it *for* thoise mixes... i'd rather a couple of >dceent mixes than a b-side by most (trashy pop) artists... Well some have alright remixes... I was annoyed that the normal "What it feels Like to Be A Girl" wasn't on the video clip - but I really like the video clip mix now... and ended up getting the single that had that remix on it. > >> > i'm pretty sure that was changed earlier than >> > 1989... maybe only about 88 >> > though... >> >>Yeah I think it was '88 actually. > >at last i win one! > >>"If I Could Turn Back Time" was certified >>double-platinum... And Cher is certifiable! :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:49:00 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] Chappa'ai At 21:07 5/05/2002 +1000, Lavenda wrote: >Stargate is back on Thursday (7:30pm!!!). It wasn't supposed to be back till >the second half of the year. Oh crap, I won't be able to tape it while I'm >on holidays. > >Anyway, just injecting a little SG1 into the list, to counteract the Buffy So I'm NOT the only Stargate-SG1 fan on here!?!?! Where were you last year lavs!?! I needed support... I got none :( ;o) That's great news... hang-on is this for Brisbane/Sydney - cause I know Melbourne/Adelaide/Perth (I think) are like a season behind. If it's for Bris/Syd - then more season 5!!!! WOOO! Thanks for letting me know - otherwise I would have missed it. So, 7:30 - not 8:30. A little DYK people... Stargate-SG1 was the highest rating foreign drama for 2001 (in Australia)!! Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:52:40 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] phew for a minute there I lost myself... At 15:34 5/05/2002 +0800, Emma Shawcross wrote: >Answers to various overnight emails... >Andrew wrote... >re : [oztori] A New Member!?! >>*els@altern.org added to members list* ;o) > >Technically a new member, actually I am fiddling around with various email >accounts trying to find a good one to host the non-digested version of >oztori... and although altern.org is very French & very minimalist & in its way >very charming, it is also a bit too simplified & confusing, so expect to see me >using my fave web-based email Elvis.com shortly... ahhh so that was you... I have "Emma Shawcross" down - so you must have posted here before - i.e. a couple of months ago, before I did the first list? I'll make els@altern.org an aka :o) Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:54:52 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] Re: Ben Foldinsomeeggs At 13:43 5/05/2002 +1000, Divine Miss M wrote: >And i do wonder why you would even try to prove me wrong on a Ben Folds/Ben >Folds Five related piece of trivia! - did you honestly expect me to be >*WRONG*?! > >>*this is funny Daniel is getting SO shirty!* ;o) > >no i'm not, i'm just utterly amazed that you could be so stupid. > >One of these days i will dub the fear of pop performance and the brick video >onto a tape and send it up to you so you can see how utterly stupid you >really are! :-) Plate of Milk Daniel!?! Woah... Nellie?? :o) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:10:55 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: [oztori] Speaking of Tape People What has happened to Holly Williamson?? And where Neri?? Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:14:07 +1000 From: AndrewR Subject: Re: [oztori] #oztori At 10:40 6/05/2002 +1000, Jonceski Jasmina wrote: >> Does anyone ever use #oztori these days? > >One day I thought I wrote something about that but I don't know if I >sent it.... > >Someone (I won't say who...I say he seems to have a major disliking for >the majority of this community and a few of you in particular he >completely detests)...ummm....so hard not to give away who it >was.... That BLOODY Richard Kingsmill strikes again!! *tsk* :o) >Jas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:19:55 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: Re: re : Re: [oztori] Don\'t project, don\'t connect, protect, Don\'t expect, suggest. >>And as for the Beatles... yes, no doubt their fame & commercial success >>was >>aided by their white male status. But can you really argue that they >>weren't one of the most talented & influential artists of the latter half >>of the 20th century? Objectively, I mean, not just because you don't like >>their music personally or see them as having a priveledged status in >>society. this is true. I didn't (as becc has correctly asserted)say they aren't/weren't good or influential, just overrated. I think they are overrated b/c they are usually credited as trhe best band of all time aand i think thats a silly label and an oversatetment (to put in context, iw as responding to the assertion that nothing innovative or groundbreaking has bene released since their "white" album, a comemnt which i think reflevts a total lack of acknowldegement of women and black artists especially - eg public enemy - whose music has had an extraordinary influence regardless of whether you like it or not). And i never said the beatles are crap because they were white and male. That is a reason why theya er so overreated though. And given credit for "creating" modern pop msuic, when they were c;learly influneced by earlier artists, partciularly black artists. >Roozi's opinion of the Beatles proves that he is no better than most of the >people he ridicules for having closed minded thoughts. He firstly thinks >their music is boring. i personally find them boring, yes (with exceptions, and i like john lennon's solo/yoko years quite a bit). And i don't like 60s production values. That doesn't make me narrow midned though. I haven't said the Beatles are crap, just overrated. It is the refusal to consider any disagreement with convetional thought (ie that the beatles are the best band ever) that is narrow minded. >However, is inability to see what they did for the music rocknroll >industry as a whole, and to see what they achieved with the recording >equipment they had i have never disputed that they have an enormouse lagacy. I just think that its not as big as it is made out to be. And i question the logiv that bands achieve a legacy based on being good rather than the right people at the right time. (one of his other arguments is that they are >badly >produced albums). Never said that. they were clearly excellent for their time, but i just prefer modern day production. Oh and some lyrics that say something would help, as good as "love me do/ you knwo i love you/ i'll alwyas be true" is :) (yes i KNOW they have better ones!) > >Roozi raves on and on if anyone has missed how Madonna has influences the >music industry, yet wont even listen to someone trying to explain why the >beatles were even more influential. He is adamant to hate them, and refuses >to change his views. I'm not adamant about it but i will probably never enjoy listening to them very much (although their later experimental stuff interests me, even if it is cultural tourism :) as for madonna, i'm more interested in her *social* influence, whcih i think is more interestiung than that of the ebatles, whsoe eraly success can be attributed to conservatism and beinga more acceptable alternative to black music and the stones etc. Of course they did challenge that ina really important way once they got into drugs, so its a much more complex tale. >They essentially invented modern rocknroll and popular music in general, >musically, lyrically, and performance wise, and having a blinded view of >saying they are boring is one of (but definitely not the only) the most >hypocritical points of view roozi has. this is where i disagree. i think they were far more derivative than many people accept that they were. that doens't make them *bad* or uninfluential, but it does demythologise the extent to which they invented anything. >The only reason I can come up with as to why he does hate them, is because >they dont include a black lesbian angst female vocalist. thats a good start as to why i don't enjoy their music, yes. same as i don't like jeff "white straight boy angst" buckley! but its not all teh erasons why i think they are overrated. >>Interesting. I wonder if it is possible to write a revisionist music >>history where the Beatles are at the bottom of the heap and some obscure >>(preferably female & non-white *wink*) artist could be shown as being the >>root of all popular music today... Perhaps punk ("Cool, the Sex Pistols >>hate the Beatles!") was the closest to such an exercise? no of course that is not possible, but it would be possible to write music history that is critical and looks at *why* teh ebatles were so succesful and at the ways in whcih they developed asound pioneered by others (etc)... xx Roozi _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:25:42 +1000 From: "Nathan Cyran" Subject: [oztori] How EVIL are you? Here's the site http://www.hilowitz.com/john/test/evil.html Nath, 23% evil Visit My Website http://come.to/nathspage ICQ:61587649 "I think it's pronounced mmm'fashnik like mmmm'cookies." _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:36:13 +1000 From: "riot poofter" Subject: [oztori] posters: cate blanchett, lotr >Just RE: Cate Blanchette - for another split second I thought it was Tori, >when I saw the Charlotte Grey preview... there is a scene with Cate as >Charlotte, in a beret, and make-up and she turns around quickly... and she >looks like the Cigarrette Girl from "SLG". YES!!!!! cate and tori are soooo similar. anyway, knowing there are a few cate fans on here i snaffled up a "charlotte gray" poster from work to offer to ppl. sadly she looks not very tori like on poster but is cool of ur a cate fan. the first person to email me who can eiter colelct it from em at some point in sydney or who is willing to pay postage (and can think of a way) can have it, or else i will chuck it. FOR BECC's attention (primarily): and there is that last (probably, maybe one more if i manage to "lose" teh address of teh customer who asked for it) lotr poster left and its ARWEN. don't get too excited cause becc has first dibs (ie becc email me yr addy and i will send), but if u don't want it let me know and will arrange for first person who emails (not dan g or li who have/are getting oen already) me will get it. oh, and li i will mail yrs as i now have a suitable postpack to send it in. sorr for delay! Roozi _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 22:11:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Too Much" <2much@elvis.com> Subject: Re: re : Re: [oztori] Don\'t project, don\'t connect, protect, Don\'t expect, suggest. On Mon, 06 May 2002, "riot poofter" wrote > > >>And as for the Beatles... yes, no doubt their fame & commercial success > >>was > >>aided by their white male status. But can you really argue that they > >>weren't one of the most talented & influential artists of the latter half > >>of the 20th century? Objectively, I mean, not just because you don't like > >>their music personally or see them as having a priveledged status in > >>society. > > this is true. I didn't (as becc has correctly asserted)say they > aren't/weren't good or influential, just overrated. I think they are > overrated b/c they are usually credited as trhe best band of all time aand i > think thats a silly label and an oversatetment (to put in context, iw as > responding to the assertion that nothing innovative or groundbreaking has > bene released since their "white" album, a comemnt which i think reflevts a > total lack of acknowldegement of women and black artists especially - eg > public enemy - whose music has had an extraordinary influence regardless of > whether you like it or not). > I agree to some extent, in that I think the label of "best band in the world" is highly subjective and nobody can really argue for *any* band to fit this label. And perhaps I was oversimplifying my own preferences when I stated that "nothing" innovative has been released since "The Beatles" LP. It's just that often when I listen to the Beatles I find myself thinking a particular lyric or sound is as close to perfection as anyone can get. > And i never said the beatles are crap because they were white and male. That > is a reason why theya er so overreated though. And given credit for > "creating" modern pop msuic, when they were c;learly influneced by earlier > artists, partciularly black artists. > That is a common popular assumption, however if one reads any in-depth analysis one finds the timeworn regression back from the Beatles to Elvis, Chuck Berry, early rock'n'roll --> r'n'b --> blues --> spirituals - --> Africa. > i have never disputed that they have an enormouse lagacy. I just think that > its not as big as it is made out to be. And i question the logiv that bands > achieve a legacy based on being good rather than the right people at the > right time. > Yes, but you seem caught in an either/or dichotomy. Surely it's possibly to argue that someone is *both* "the right person at the right time" *and* merit-worthy? And the case of the Beatles is particularly interesting because although advantaged by their white male status, they were also disadvantaged by their class and regional background. > Never said that. they were clearly excellent for their time, but i just > prefer modern day production. Oh and some lyrics that say something would > help, as good as "love me do/ you knwo i love you/ i'll alwyas be true" is > :) (yes i KNOW they have better ones!) Try listening to Help, Eleanor Rigby, Tomorrow Never Knows, Helter Skelter, For No-one, Let It Be, All You Need is Love for a start, and then see if it's still possible to argue that the Beatles' lyrics don't "say something." > as for madonna, i'm more interested in her *social* influence, whcih i think > is more interestiung than that of the ebatles, whsoe eraly success can be > attributed to conservatism and beinga more acceptable alternative to black > music and the stones etc. Of course they did challenge that ina really > important way once they got into drugs, so its a much more complex tale. > I agree, I think the Beatles are quite similar to U2 in some ways in the way that they have entered commercial culture & then proceeded to make a series of very non-commercial and subversive statements (or as subversive as a mostly-Christian bunch of straight guys can be *grin*). > >The only reason I can come up with as to why he does hate them, is because > >they dont include a black lesbian angst female vocalist. > > thats a good start as to why i don't enjoy their music, yes. same as i don't > like jeff "white straight boy angst" buckley! but its not all teh erasons > why i think they are overrated. > Rooz, you're a bloke?? (I've actually thought you were female, despite the male connotations of your nickname...) Then perhaps your preference for black lesbians is a form of reverse fag-haggism I've often found myself subjected to by my male friends... Going on somewhat of a detour, I must say that one of the reasons for my admiration of Tori is that she is one of the few straight women I can actually stand being around for a long time, or who actually expresses her femininity in a way I can relate to. Being a former/sublimated transman, I still find myself relating more to male points of view, and particularly those of non-straight/alternative/supressed men (which I would argue can be found throughout the work of many artists traditionally perceived as "straight white male" including Elvis, Roy Orbison, the Beatles, U2, Jeff Buckley). And on another detour, I think it's very important that rather than ignoring traditional patriarchical paradigms and icons (such as Elvis & the Beatles), feminists & others interested in undermining patriarchy should subject these icons to as close a scrutiny as possible. > >>Interesting. I wonder if it is possible to write a revisionist music > >>history where the Beatles are at the bottom of the heap and some obscure > >>(preferably female & non-white *wink*) artist could be shown as being the > >>root of all popular music today... Perhaps punk ("Cool, the Sex Pistols > >>hate the Beatles!") was the closest to such an exercise? > > no of course that is not possible, but it would be possible to write music > history that is critical and looks at *why* teh ebatles were so succesful > and at the ways in whcih they developed asound pioneered by others (etc)... > Actually I would say *anything* is possible in history & I am half-inclined to have a go at destroying the Beatles' "best band in the world" reputation myself, just as an intellectual exercise... But if you have a look at some more in-depth and serious/scholarly critiques of the Beatles, you'll find they've addressed most of the points you stipulate. (An MA student at my uni wrote her thesis on "Framed pretty little Eloi : Beatle photographs and the construction of "image" " a few years ago, and it's a very good read. *grin*) E. "Don't criticize what you don't understand, son. You never walked in that man's shoes." --E.A. Presley - ------------------------------------------------- Get your free @Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com! http://www.elvis.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 22:16:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Too Much" <2much@elvis.com> Subject: Re: [oztori] How EVIL are you? On Mon, 06 May 2002, "Nathan Cyran" wrote > > Here's the site > http://www.hilowitz.com/john/test/evil.html > > > Nath, 23% evil > Nathan, you disappoint me ;) I am 53% evil, probably because I've never driven a vehicle in my life & that test seemed to be written by a traffic cop (to make use of a Judeo-Christian metaphor I don't actually believe in, I seriously hope St. Peter isn't letting people through the gates solely on the basis of an absence of traffic offences...) E. "Don't criticize what you don't understand, son. You never walked in that man's shoes." --E.A. Presley - ------------------------------------------------- Get your free @Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com! http://www.elvis.com ------------------------------ End of oztori-digest V2 #134 ****************************