From: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org (oppositeview-digest) To: oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Subject: oppositeview-digest V5 #16 Reply-To: oppositeview@smoe.org Sender: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk oppositeview-digest Thursday, January 23 2003 Volume 05 : Number 016 Today's Subjects: ----------------- OV: OT: That Lloyd fellow (again, but different) [SngWrite1@aol.com] Re: OV: For US readers, only, 30th Anniv. Roe v. Wade ["Susan Gardner" ] Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 ["Rachel Wifall" ] Re: OV: OT For US readers, only, 30th Anniv. Roe v. Wade [debbsc67 ] OV: OT: to all Glasgowers/Dubliners/Shannoners [arathas@pratchett-fanclub] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:09:00 EST From: SngWrite1@aol.com Subject: OV: OT: That Lloyd fellow (again, but different) Hey everyone, I know that there are a bunch of LC fans on this list (several of them contacted me about the "Late Night Early Town" mp3). So do any of you have the never-released "That Boy" singles, or more importantly the b-sides? Rain On The Parade, Tie Me Down, Missing, and If You Gotta Go, Go Now I've got stuff to trade for a CDR copy of those 4 songs (Dels, other Lloyd stuff, Finn Bros...). Please let me know! Thanks, and we now return you to the regularly scheduled non-happenings of Del Amitri. Dave www.davesills.com (now with mp3 clips of every song from the album) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:57:12 -0500 From: "Susan Gardner" Subject: Re: OV: For US readers, only, 30th Anniv. Roe v. Wade Thank you Phil for speaking up. I haven't been able to get online to check email since Saturday and have a lot of catching up to do, but a forward like this one from Josh begs for a reply. Abortion is murder. You can try to deny it six ways from Sunday but the simple fact is, it is. It is a tragedy that abortion has become a form of birth control and this is just another indication of the savage self-centeredness of this world we live in. Susan - ----- Original Message ----- From: The Densons To: oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 8:55 AM Subject: RE: OV: For US readers, only, 30th Anniv. Roe v. Wade as Josh posted....... "If you don't agree with the politics of this email, or if you do, sit down and have a good, safe discussion with someone about the topic of abortion rights." This was MY good, safe discussion. Keep you're money in your pocket and let the ROCK STARS fight their own fight! Oh...one last thing...the reason I really sent this post...how ironic...this groups name... "Kill Rock Stars". For every abortion, I wonder how many rock stars are lost? How many songs will never be heard? How many VH1 specials we won't have to sit through (well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad ;) Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:42:31 -0500 From: "Josh Neas" Subject: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 Yeah, sorry if it wasn't clear. To build on Darren's explination.. Kill Rock Stars is an independent record label based out of Olympia, Washington that has fostered and supported the careers of tons of artists over the past decade that would not have found a voice otherwise. The careers of Sleater-Kinney (Time Magazine's Best American Rock Band of 2002), Elliot Smith, Mary Lou Lord and many others are owed to this wonderful label and their hard work at providing under-the-radar music at reasonable prices. (Rarely do cds exceed the $12 mark.) Even if you don't wish to donate to the charity, I'd urge you to go check out mp3s by these artists and maybe you'd find something you like. They have a really diverse roster and tons of stuff to get into. josh. " There is just one way to save yourself, and that's to get together and work and fight for everybody." - Woody Guthrie _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:56:14 -0800 (PST) From: Alison Bellach Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 One plea: Let's not have an abortion debate here, 'kay? :) I mean, unless anyone knows DA's opinion on the subject ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:17:27 -0000 From: "Andrew Douglas" Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 It does allow us to talk about "Driving with the brakes on". We decided it was about abortion - right? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Bellach" To: "Opposite View" Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 > One plea: > Let's not have an abortion debate here, 'kay? :) > > I mean, unless anyone knows DA's opinion on the subject ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:10:37 -0000 From: "claire barber (SRI)" Subject: RE: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 I fully agree. I'm not saying that abortion is a topic that shouldn't be discussed - just that I don't think this list is really the best place for it. If the original post had been sent in the context of Josh's second message - then fair enough. I think it's good to highlight places where others may get to hear music that they other wise might not get to hear. Sure the purpose of the charity too was good to state - so some could avoid it if they didn't morally agree. OK - so the second message clarified a bit the purpose of sending it to the list - but that could have been done in the first one without raising the risk of a moral debate that doesn't really belong here. Claire - -----Original Message----- From: Alison Bellach [mailto:alibee@delamitri.com] Sent: 22 January 2003 16:56 To: Opposite View Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 One plea: Let's not have an abortion debate here, 'kay? :) I mean, unless anyone knows DA's opinion on the subject ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:21:40 +1100 (EST) From: Aleksandr Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 Weeeeellllll, Just on that, in "Driving with the brakes on" when he says "now the kid is gone", what the consensus here - have they put a child up for adoption somewhere, or have they gone for an abortion? If it's the latter, then i have to wonder why "she's got the wheel"? Wouldn't letting her drive be a wee bit dangerous? Or.... ...perhaps, has Justin donned a dress for this one and is speaking (singing if you like) with a feminine voice, because he's the one who has given up the child (one way or another) And when he says "and i've got to deal from now on", is because s/he has to deal with the issue (especially if Justin as a girl has given up the child) or does he have to deal speed (in a Celtic top perhaps) or other drugs, to get enough money to pay back whatever money they borrowed for whatever it is they've done? Gawd, i hope that makes sense. I think i've confused myself. I'm not sure if i've always wondered or whether i just thought all this, because it's 4am.... Cheers, AL - - "I think not being born is ecologically responsible." - Alice, 'The quick & the dead' On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Alison Bellach wrote: > One plea: > Let's not have an abortion debate here, 'kay? :) > > I mean, unless anyone knows DA's opinion on the subject ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:46:24 -0500 From: "Rachel Wifall" Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 Wow, I feel like I'm in graduate school again (literary analysis)! Perhaps she's got the wheel because she's the one who has made the decision? It definitely sounds like they want different things and he feels he has not taken a stand for his own feelings. RW >From: Aleksandr >To: Alison Bellach >CC: Opposite View >Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 >Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:21:40 +1100 (EST) > >Weeeeellllll, > >Just on that, in "Driving with the brakes on" when he says "now the kid is >gone", what the consensus here - have they put a child up for adoption >somewhere, or have they gone for an abortion? > >If it's the latter, then i have to wonder why "she's got the wheel"? >Wouldn't letting her drive be a wee bit dangerous? Or.... > >...perhaps, has Justin donned a dress for this one and is speaking >(singing if you like) with a feminine voice, because he's the one who has >given up the child (one way or another) > >And when he says "and i've got to deal from now on", is because s/he has >to deal with the issue (especially if Justin as a girl has given up the >child) or does he have to deal speed (in a Celtic top perhaps) or other >drugs, to get enough money to pay back whatever money they borrowed for >whatever it is they've done? > >Gawd, i hope that makes sense. I think i've confused myself. I'm not sure >if i've always wondered or whether i just thought all this, because it's >4am.... > >Cheers, > >AL > >- > >"I think not being born is ecologically responsible." > - Alice, 'The quick & the dead' > >On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Alison Bellach wrote: > > > One plea: > > Let's not have an abortion debate here, 'kay? :) > > > > I mean, unless anyone knows DA's opinion on the subject ;) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:45:55 -0800 (PST) From: debbsc67 Subject: Re: OV: OT For US readers, only, 30th Anniv. Roe v. Wade Well, I agree with you, Susan. To a certain extent. I, myself, would never choose abortion. I absolutely abhore it as a means of birth control! Disgusting! That said, I still believe that every woman has the right to do with her body as sees fit. It's between her and her God if what she does brings consequences in the afterlife. We are not here to play judge and jury. We don't have that power. Do I wish people didn't feel like that was the only answer? You bet! There are plenty of people out there that can't have children and would LOVE the chance to raise, love, and nurture what the birth mother considered an "unwanted" child. Would I ever force a woman impregnated because of rape (or worse, yet, a child impregnated through incest) to carry that baby to term? Not on your nelly! If she can do it, God bless her and she's a marvelous person! And what if it's determined that attempting to carry a baby to term will endanger (or even take) the life of the mother. In all cases, it's mother's choice as to what is best for her. The best thing we can do is make available safe options and offer alternatives where applicable. I don't think we want women dying because of back alley abortions. That was tried before and will continue to be tried no matter what the laws are. If a woman wants it bad enough, she will find a way. Sad as it is, it's better that she be tended to by a doctor and lose one life as opposed to a "do-it-yourself" where two lives are lost. Not all can or could afford to travel to another country where it's legal, like some in places like Ireland (if laws haven't changed, yet) have been forced to do. Again, where there's a will, there's a way. In the end (although it's not a choice we'd make for ourselves), it's not up to us to decide what's best for someone else or force our views, beliefs and judgments upon them. We can voice them, though (and should!), and give support where it's wanted and needed, but, each mother must be allowed to make her own choice and live with the consequences of whatever action she takes. debbie - --- Susan Gardner wrote: > Thank you Phil for speaking up. I haven't been able > to get online to check > email since Saturday and have a lot of catching up > to do, but a forward like > this one from Josh begs for a reply. > > Abortion is murder. You can try to deny it six ways > from Sunday but the > simple fact is, it is. It is a tragedy that > abortion has become a form of > birth control and this is just another indication of > the savage > self-centeredness of this world we live in. > > Susan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: The Densons > To: oppositeview-digest@smoe.org > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 8:55 AM > Subject: RE: OV: For US readers, only, 30th Anniv. > Roe v. Wade > > > as Josh posted....... > "If you don't agree with the politics of this > email, or if you do, sit down > and have a good, safe discussion with someone > about the topic of abortion > rights." > > This was MY good, safe discussion. Keep you're > money in your pocket and > let > the ROCK STARS fight their own fight! > Oh...one last thing...the reason I really sent > this post...how > ironic...this > groups name... "Kill Rock Stars". For every > abortion, I wonder how many > rock > stars are lost? How many songs will never be > heard? How many VH1 specials > we > won't have to sit through (well, 2 out of 3 ain't > bad ;) > > Phil Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:11:48 EST From: Wcamden333@aol.com Subject: Re: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V5 #15 In a message dated 1/22/03 11:47:08 AM Central Standard Time, rwifall@msn.com writes: > Wow, I feel like I'm in graduate school again (literary analysis)! Perhaps > she's got the wheel because she's the one who has made the decision? It > definitely sounds like they want different things and he feels he has not > taken a stand for his own feelings. > > RW > I agree -- sounds to me as if she has made the decision not only because "she's got the wheel" but because he says "I might be more a man, if I stopped this in its tracks and said c'mon, lets go home." Amy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:29:53 -0800 From: darren@bendcable.com Subject: OV: Let's stop the Abortion subject, now! While it may be a fun debate for some, it may not be for others. So, if you'd like to continue this discussion, please take it off list. This is a deeply controversial subject, and not one meant for a music discussion list. There are over 300 subscribers to OV, let's not fill their mailboxes with discussions about subjects they haven't chosen to read. Even though there's very little to discuss musically... Thank you. Darren Holmquist Admin. The Opposite View Mailing List http://home.bendcable.com/oppositeview ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Jen Woyan" Subject: OV: Not directly Del-related, but certainly not about that OTHER subject..... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:30:14 -0600 Sender: owner-oppositeview@smoe.org Precedence: bulk An amusing article by former PiL member Jah Wobble on the current state of the music industry..... http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=371080&host =5&dir=227 Life is sweet So the record industry is in meltdown. Who cares, says Jah Wobble - veteran of many deals - when going it alone is much more fun (and you get to keep the change) 19 January 2003 - The Independent Personally, I'm not too bothered about the decline of the record business. It always was a silly and rather unbusinesslike business. To be truthful, I'm more interested in my imminent ascent of nearby Kinder Scout (I moved from the east end of London to Cheshire four years ago). The malaise in the music industry has been well documented over the last couple of years. This is the state of play in a nutshell. CD sales were already falling drastically when, to make things worse, Napster came on the scene. But if anything, Napster  a portal that allowed consumers to copy music off the internet  has proved to be a red herring. According to the industry itself, the real threat to music is people copying from CD to CD. As if this weren't enough to contend with, the CD-buying public is getting ever more fickle  established stars with big sales histories no longer sell big. Hence the cull in recent years of these artists, who have been "let go" by their record companies. And that's not to mention the smaller fry, the music industry's bottom feeders such as your humble narrator. Some commentators fear not only the end of the CD, but of all the music carrying formats we have grown accustomed to buying over the counter. In the future, we'll just download or pay-per-play. This is good news for music publishers (who have always had it easy) but death to record companies. Another pressure has been caused by the increased corporate nature of the business. Put simply, large independent companies such as Island Records sold out to large corporate companies like Polygram. These in turn merged with the likes of Universal, who then merged with Seagram (the booze company), before they merged with Vivendi (originally a public utilities company). In this kind of scenario the gobbled-up small company may keep a nominal degree of autonomy to begin with. Sooner rather than later though, the bosses of the small company realise that they are now accounting to the share-holders and accountants of the "daddy" conglomerate, who in turn have no understanding of the music industry. A modest #500,000 profit on an artist is no longer enough. The city expects... Hence the current mood at record companies which is, generally speaking, anxious and depressed. Jobs have been lost. Increasingly, senior staff remind me of gambling addicts, sweating over mid-week chart positions as if they were the results of the 2.30 at Kempton Park. All that ever interested me about the music industry was getting the money to make a record, and that's all I'm interested in now. The form wasn't hard in the old days. Eventually, after wining and dining with A&R men, you'd get to meet the MD of the company and tell him that "yes, of course I want to sell lots of records too!" and "no, I realise I can't go on making un-commercial records!" I'd make a few more noises about how grateful I was to be given the chance to salvage my career (again) and then I'd naff off and make another record that 5,000 to 15,000 or so people around the world would levitate to. That might not sound like a lot of people, but imagine waving a stick at every one of them. Your arm would go numb. This was a hustle that I managed to pull off every few years. By 1996, I realised it was going to be virtually impossible to carry on with this record-deal caper. For one thing, I'm not getting any younger (although I hasten to add, I am still extremely good-looking, with a body both lithe and sensuous), and for another, it was getting harder not to laugh out loud at the absurdity of it all. Actually, I realise that my circumstances were better than those of many artists. I was under contract to Island. I had given them a reasonably commercial album two years previously. Since then I had finished and released one very un-commercial record. I then presented them with three albums, one after the other in quick succession: an album inspired by William Blake, a Requiem Mass and an album of Celtic poets. The company's response to these records was like mine is to a Jehovah's Witness at the front door. Quite understandable really. Putting out those records probably brought the employees closer to the sack. The question was, what next? Would they fund my own label? "No," they said. Would you let me go then? "Yes," they said, with barely concealed delight. So, unusually, I was "up the road" inside a fortnight  the quickest response I've ever had from a record company over anything. If I hadn't known better I'd have said they were glad to see the back of me. I had always thought it was just a matter of time before I had my own label  there's none as mad as the self-published, and all that. And I'd had the luxury of a dry run back in the early Eighties, when to my delight I found that I could record an album in my bedroom for virtually zilch. You could spend another #100 cutting it before ordering 2,000 pressings at around 35p a shot. I'd pick up the records from the manufacturers and deliver them all myself to various distributors, exporters and wholesalers, as well as specialist shops. I found that I'd come out of it with a good few quid. Remember this was over 20 years ago, when you could buy a gram of coke, two flights to New York on Concorde and a Ford Capri and still have change left over from 10 bob. Unfortunately, instead of reinvesting the profits, I had a tendency to spunk the money down the pub. In this respect, at least, I was way ahead of the game in looking to merge my business with that of breweries and distillers. So anyway, here I am, all these years later, doing it again. It will have been six years and 20 releases on my label, 30 Hertz, come June. I'm making a pretty good fist of it, if I do say so myself. Then again, it's a lot easier now. Nowadays there are brokers who offer all-in packages. They will take care of printing covers as well as pressing CDs and vinyl, and they will deliver the product to your distributors. I must admit that it's tricky, at times, reconciling the running of the label with continuing to work as a musician/producer/composer, as well as being a bandleader. There can be violent right-versus-left hemisphere of the brain conflict when, in the middle of writing a vocal melody, you are asked to compare tour bus prices, or agree to a discount on a bulk buy of CDs from a Greek distribution company. Having said that, it's generally fun, and it doesn't have to take up 15 hours a day, seven days a week. I've learnt to work a lot smarter. And not only in regard to business. With the odd exception, there is no longer any need to do 17-hour sessions in the studio. I can't pretend that I do everything single handed. I've got a good team of people working for me  my wife in particular is a great help. However, when I've tried getting people to run the label for me it was a disaster. In fact, that was the original idea: that I would, as usual, be allowed to do the sexy bit, and leave the running of the thing to some one else. Naive. Nobody is going to care for 30 Hertz as much as me. I suppose that in a way I've done the classic Nineties downsizing thing. I don't even live in London any more. The operation is run from a leafy Stockport suburb. "Location, location, location," I tell myself, as I wander the Peak District. It's a funny era this one, volatile and unpredictable. Yet on the other hand, as long as you're not stuck in the poverty trap, you can invoke change, both rapid and radical in your life. Spiritually speaking, owning a label has much to offer artists. As William Blake said "Create your own System or be enslaved by another Man's". Also, before you consider it, check your (primary) motives. Are you doing it as a purely business thing? If you are, you're nuts. Or are you, like Blake, doing it for eternity? I'm doing it for eternity. However, if any major record companies out there want to save my career again, well, I'm always ready to talk. But I will keep my own label, thank you very much. Jah Wobble's Ode to Joy tour starts on Friday at Cargo, London EC2 (020 7739 3440) and finishes at The Brewery Arts Centre, Kendal (01539 725133) on 31 January. The new album 'Fly' (30 Hertz) is released on 27 January Wobbleworld: a brief guide * Born John Wardle, Stepney, London, in 1958. * Meets John Lydon (aka Johnny Rotten) and John Ritchie (aka Sid Vicious) at college in 1973. A drunken Vicious mispronounces his name as Jah Wobble and the alias sticks. * Joins Lydon's post-Sex Pistols outfit Public Image Ltd (PiL) as bass player. Heavily influenced by dub reggae, Wobble's style helps define the band's sound, particularly on eponymous first single and Metal Box LP. * Leaves PiL in 1980 after various fallings out. Solo album appears the same year with first signs of "world music" influences. * After struggle with alcohol, leaves music in 1987 to work for the London Underground as a driver. * Reforms Invaders of the Heart in 1991 for Rising above Bedlam album, gaining Mercury Prize nomination. * Throughout the Nineties works with artists too eclectic and numerous to list in full, but including Bjvrk, Ginger Baker, Brian Eno, Bill Laswell, Shara Nelson, The Dubliners, Dolores Cranberry, Holgar Czukay, the late William Blake etc. Produces remix of Holly Valance smash "Kiss Kiss" in 2002. * You may also wish to know: has Philosophy degree from London University. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:37:23 -0600 From: "mintonp" Subject: OV: DWTBO Begging the pardon of those who've heard this one before- I like to think that adoption was the difficult choice made by the girl in DWTBO, not abortion. And, that "The Long Journey Home," is the sequel. Ed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:44:12 +0100 From: arathas@pratchett-fanclub.de Subject: OV: OT: to all Glasgowers/Dubliners/Shannoners Hi together, I guess (or better: hope) that there's some people on this list who are living in Glasgow or in Dublin/Shannon, Ireland? I'm planning a trip to Scotland and Ireland in the mid of June this year, and since I've never been to any of the countries, I don't know much about them. Well, the infos I'm looking for are such things as: where to find cheap places to sleep (i.e. youth hostels or so), or which places are worth visiting. Where to rent a car (if possible), how much it costs to rent a car, which things to drink and which (in all circumstances) to avoid drinking ... or cool places to buy CD's/LP's in Glasgow etc, blah blah ... you know, the tourist sort of thing. ;-) it would be nice if someone would email me off-list :-) Dirk PS: btw, this week I've got a complete MPEG of "Tell her this" (from the VH1-Sessions) up on my site (interesting for everyone with a fast connection) ------------------------------ End of oppositeview-digest V5 #16 *********************************