From: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org (oppositeview-digest) To: oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Subject: oppositeview-digest V4 #270 Reply-To: oppositeview@smoe.org Sender: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk oppositeview-digest Tuesday, October 29 2002 Volume 04 : Number 270 Today's Subjects: ----------------- OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry ["Jen Woyan" ] Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry [doug brown Subject: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry Oxford Union Debate - This House believes that "the free music mentality is a threat to the future of music." This was a debate held at the Oxford Union on Thursday 24th October. Final vote was: Ayes - 72 Noes - 256 http://tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk/~nick/UnionDebate/ _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:09:15 -0800 (PST) From: doug brown Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry That was some seriously biased reporting and it was pretty darned nice of Hilary Rosen to show up knowing how hostile the crowd would be. It's important to understand the RIAA's stance on this, which Hilary sums up in this older interview: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,39108,00.html where she says, "What we are doing is going after a targeted group of businesses that are creating opportunities for themselves using other people's property" and has some good comments on intellectual property too. Also keep in mind that she is not just defending the music business but the artists that are a part of that business. I don't agree with everything they say but I sure agree with the principle. Why didn't they talk about the Doug Theorem that chicks are to blame though?!?! ===== - -Doug . Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:05:00 EST From: SngWrite1@aol.com Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry Doug, That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read from you. Rosen is a paid lobbyist for the major labels, not major label artists. The same major labels that have been screwing over artists for years. The same major labels that "own" the albums created by the artist (even after they've recouped). The same major labels that wanted to consider anything they release to be "Works for Hire" - ensuring that copyrights would remain theirs rather than eventually reverting back to the artists. Hilary Rosen is no friend to the artist. The majors are upset because they waited too long to come up with a viable business model for digital distribution and they STILL HAVEN'T! But you can be sure that major label contracts today consider MP3's a "new technology" and that if they ever do manage to get any money off of downloading, the artist will see even less of it than they do with CD's. People download music because they are interested in hearing it. That should be considered a good thing. There's a lot of research that has shown that many people who download DO buy the material later (if it's commercially available) - for the packaging, and simply the better sound quality. For example, I bought the new Sheryl Crow album after only hearing the one song on the radio, which I thought was tepid at best, and found the rest of the album was bland too. Had I been able to download a few tracks, I would have ended up not buying it (and the files would've gotten deleted). No doubt that the RIAA would then blame the lack of a sale on my downloading. In a message dated 10/28/2002 2:09:56 PM Central Standard Time, douge_brown@yahoo.com writes: > Also keep in mind that she is not just defending the > music business but the artists that are a part of that > business. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:06:41 -0800 (PST) From: Alison Bellach Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry > That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read from you. That sentence made me snort soda. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:48:14 -0800 (PST) From: debbsc67 Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry - --- SngWrite1@aol.com wrote: > > People download music because they are interested in > hearing it. That should > be considered a good thing. There's a lot of > research that has shown that > many people who download DO buy the material later > (if it's commercially > available) - for the packaging, and simply the > better sound quality. For > example, I bought the new Sheryl Crow album after > only hearing the one song > on the radio, which I thought was tepid at best, and > found the rest of the > album was bland too. Had I been able to download a > few tracks, I would have > ended up not buying it (and the files would've > gotten deleted). No doubt > that the RIAA would then blame the lack of a sale on > my downloading. > Interesting point. If you were to listen to the tracks in a bricks & mortar store and not buy it, they don't chalk that up to anything at all, do they? But basically, that's what you were doing, albeit the "cyber" way. Seems like a bit of a double standard if you ask me. I haven't downloaded songs in MONTHS, but I suspect that what I was doing was what most were...trying before buying. If I like it and I can get it commercially, I do. If I don't like it, why clutter up my hard drive with it? It's history. back to what you were doing, debbie Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:52:36 -0000 From: "Andrew Douglas" Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry I gotta agree with Doug on this one, the article was VERY biased. I think people kind of miss the point here when they talk about this stuff. It's not about artists getting screwed by major labels, it's about companies distributing stuff (or providing the means to do it) without having permission. Let's not kid ourselves, these companies aren't charities, they make money out of it and I'd suggest that they give very little, if any, money to the artists.The whole major labels being bad is a whole other issue. It's not the same as the old taping albums thing either. When you taped albums before you got them from your friend, you didn't have a company put you in touch with someone who could give it to you. I download plenty of stuff, if I like it I might buy it, if i don't I probably won't. But I DEFINATELY buy less stuff now than I did a few years ago. A lot of the stuff I listen to is on my computer and I use Winamp. I'm usually pretty good about buying stuff from artists who I think need the money but in general I don't care too much. People mentioned about listening to the songs in stores and then not buying them, and how this wasn't being chalked up as a reason for falling sales. The point isn't really about falling sales, it's about who decides you should be able to listen to that song first of all. It's a distribution or publishing issue. Of course I don't want them to stop things like Kazaa or Audiogalaxy, but that's because I'm getting the music for free. I steal it. andrew - ----- Original Message ----- From: "debbsc67" To: ; Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 9:48 PM Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry > Interesting point. If you were to listen to the tracks > in a bricks & mortar store and not buy it, they don't > chalk that up to anything at all, do they? But > basically, that's what you were doing, albeit the > "cyber" way. Seems like a bit of a double standard if > you ask me. > > I haven't downloaded songs in MONTHS, but I suspect > that what I was doing was what most were...trying > before buying. If I like it and I can get it > commercially, I do. If I don't like it, why clutter up > my hard drive with it? It's history. > > back to what you were doing, > debbie > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:52:19 -0500 From: Shevale@aol.com Subject: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest Number 266 Geez, Doug, was the misogynistic tripe intentional, or was it the accidental byproduct of a misfired joke? It's hard to tell via e-mail if your tongue was firmly planted in your cheek.... or if it was another appendage in a different orafice. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:05:43 EST From: SngWrite1@aol.com Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry Andrew, My points were about Doug's claim that Hilary Rosen was defending the interests of artists, and not just the companies they record for. And frankly, I found that to be a ridiculously naive statement. As for the bias of the article... most on the subject are going to have a spin one way or another - artists themselves are all split on it too. Oddly though, it tends to be the independent musicians who favor downloading. Odd because many of them actually own their own records and therefore could claim to actually be losing money by people downloading and not buying. Yet many of these indie musicians feel the pros of downloading outweigh the cons. Janis Ian has written a couple of great articles about this (she's pro-downloading). She especially takes issue with Hilary Rosen making claims that the RIAA is looking out for her (Ian's) best interests. How many of the records that you've "stolen" would you have actually plunked down cash for? Do you buy less because you download, or because there's not as much that catches your ear enough to feel it's worth spending money on? As a side note to my Sheryl Crow story: I said if had I "stolen" the album, I never would have bought it (and wouldn't have kept the files around either) - - but therefore I would've had money to buy a different album. In a message dated 10/28/2002 5:49:08 PM Central Standard Time, andrewdouglas@nireland.com writes: > I think people kind of miss the point here when they talk about this stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:12:21 EST From: SngWrite1@aol.com Subject: OV: Sound salvation "Radio is in the hands of such a lot of fools trying to anesthetize the way that you feel." - Elvis Costello. Discuss. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:13:03 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitchell Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry Dave, Would you make your entire album(s) available for download? Mitch. On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 SngWrite1@aol.com wrote: > Andrew, > My points were about Doug's claim that Hilary Rosen was defending the > interests of artists, and not just the companies they record for. And > frankly, I found that to be a ridiculously naive statement. > > As for the bias of the article... most on the subject are going to have a > spin one way or another - artists themselves are all split on it too. Oddly > though, it tends to be the independent musicians who favor downloading. Odd > because many of them actually own their own records and therefore could claim > to actually be losing money by people downloading and not buying. Yet many > of these indie musicians feel the pros of downloading outweigh the cons. > Janis Ian has written a couple of great articles about this (she's > pro-downloading). She especially takes issue with Hilary Rosen making claims > that the RIAA is looking out for her (Ian's) best interests. > > How many of the records that you've "stolen" would you have actually plunked > down cash for? Do you buy less because you download, or because there's not > as much that catches your ear enough to feel it's worth spending money on? > > As a side note to my Sheryl Crow story: I said if had I "stolen" the album, > I never would have bought it (and wouldn't have kept the files around either) > - but therefore I would've had money to buy a different album. > > > In a message dated 10/28/2002 5:49:08 PM Central Standard Time, > andrewdouglas@nireland.com writes: > > > I think people kind of miss the point here when they talk about this stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:58:34 -0600 From: "Ed Minton" Subject: OV: Sound salvation Recently Rolling Stone magazine presented a "Tribute to Women in Rock" issue, in which they presented many new interviews. One of my favorites, Joni Mitchell was asked about the state of the music business: Q Has the music business changed very much in your lifetime? A Well, no, I've been screwed from the beginning. There wasn't any bidding war for me in the beginning. It was like I was like Rachmaninoff, a late romantic or something- what I was doing was already over, you know. Nobody wanted to really take a chance on me, so the deal that I got was just atrocious. I mean, it was like slave labor, really - no points, no budget. And I've never really had a good deal in the business. So I would never take another deal in the record business, which means I may not record again, or I have to figure out a way to sell over the Net or do something else. But I'd be damned if I'll line their pockets. Q So how do you feel when some people say the whole business is going down the crapper? A I hope it all goes down the crapper. It's top-heavy, it's wasteful. It's an insane business. Now, this is all calculated music. It's calculated for sales, it's sonically calculated. I'm ashamed to be a part of the music business. You know, I think it's just a cesspool. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:08:21 -0800 (PST) From: doug brown Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry ***PART ONE*** Excerpts from http://www.musicunited.org. Ask these artists who's side Hilary Rosen is on. Dixie Chicks, Grammy Award Winning and Two-Time Diamond Award Recipient: "It may seem innocent enough, but every time you illegally download music a songwriter doesnt get paid. And, every time you swap that music with your friends a new artist doesnt get a chance. Respect the artists you love by not stealing their music. Youre in control. Support music, dont steal it." Nelly, Multi-Platinum Hip-Hop Artist, Number One Hit "Hot in Herre": "As an artist you hate for someone to break into your home and take everything that youve accumulated over the last how many ever years youve been in this game. Its like a dream to get here, and then once you get here to have someone take it from under you is real tough to deal with. We really look at it as stealing, because, thats just it, to us its black and white, either you pay for it or you dont. And, youre not paying for it." Stevie Wonder, Legendary Multi-Platinum Award-Winning Artist: "Record companies, publishers, radio stations, retailers, artists and others in our industry must take a very strong position against the stealing of our writing and music or else those writings and music will become as cheap as the garbage in the streets." Missy Elliott, Writer, Producer, Rapper, Singer: "Hip Hop has always been about the attainable dream  about running your own business, your own club, your own fanzine. Turning your back on the bootleggers helps us pave the way for the next generation of entrepreneurs. We do our best to bring you the latest, hottest beats, and we appreciate it when our fans show their love and respect by going in that record store and buying the finished product." Musiq, Singer, Platinum Award Winning Urban Music Artist, "AIJUSWANASEING": "I think that people do need to be educated on the seriousness of music piracy because it cuts into hard working peoples money, especially the artistspeople like me. So, it catches my attention. I dont think that its cool, because if Im putting in all of this work to see all of these returns and I dont see the full capacity of my returns, because somebody is cutting in on it, weve got to do something about it. Right now youve got people thinking, 'What...Im only just doing this, Im only just doing that.' But, youre only just doing this and this person is only just doing that, and its chipping away and its chipping away and chipping away. And, you dont see it, but its a serious thing." Eve, Multi-Platinum Award Winning Artist, "Ruff Ryders First Lady": "We work really hard. We love our fans and we appreciate the love, but dont steal from us, support us. Go in the stores and buy the records." DMX, Multi-Platinum Award Winning Artist, "And Then There Was X": "It was a rough road but I made it. I got to where I wanted to be. And, part of being where I want to be is getting paid for my work. But, when you download songs off the Internet its stealing. Its taking away from those 19 years of writing, its taking away from those 19 years of struggling. Because straight up and down its stealing. My fans, my real fans, they got love for me. [It]s stopping new artists from getting where they need to be. Its killing the industry as we know it. Stop stealing. Go in the store and buy like everybody else." Shakira, Grammy-Winning Latin Pop Artist: "Making an album is a team effort, so when somebody pirates a record that not only affects the artist, but also the people who worked on it like co-producers, co-writers and musicians. Say no to piracy." Britney Spears, Multi-Platinum Award Winning Artist "Ooops! I Did It Again": "Would you go into a CD store and steal a CD? Its the same thing, people going into the computers and logging on and stealing our music. Its the exact same thing, so why do it?" Mary J. Blige, Multi-Platinum Award Winning Artist, "No More Drama": "If you create something and then someone takes it without your permission, that is stealing. It may sound harsh, but it is true." Lamont Dozier, Legendary Songwriter, including "Stop! In The Name Of Love": "I am grateful to the RIAA for understanding and supporting the needs of the songwriters and artists. The business as we have known it has changed with these various piracy technologies that are taking over the world. I personally have seen my income drastically reduced, and it is frightening to experience. I salute the RIAA in its endeavors to make a difference where it is truly needed. Thank you." Sean (P. Diddy) Combs, Multi-Platinum Award Winning Artist, Producer, Founder and CEO of Bad Boy Entertainment: "As an artist who has dedicated his life to music and the music business, I have seen what illegal music copying has done and continues to do to new and established musicians. I understand why people download music, but for me and my fellow artists, this is our livelihood. When you make an illegal copy, you're stealing from the artist. Its that simple. Every single day we're out here pouring our hearts and souls into making music for everyone to enjoy. What if you didnt get paid for your job? Put yourself in our shoes!" Trisha Yearwood, Multi-Platinum and Renowned Award-Winning Artist: "A songwriter is a craftsman much like a carpenter. Whether writing a song or building a house, the creator deserves compensation. Piracy deprives songwriters, producers and artists acknowledgment for sharing the gift of music." Vanessa Carlton, Singer/Songwriter, "A Thousand Miles" and Gold-Award Winning Artist for "Be Not Nobody": "I think its great that there are even more avenues today to expose music and new artists. And Im all for getting a taste of something before you buy it, but when it becomes more than a taste and people begin hoarding the entire work, it becomes piracy which results in a system in which artists are not being rewarded for their works. Works which they put everything they have into creating and then working their asses off to support and promote." Glen Ballard, Award-Winning Songwriter/Producer; including Alanis Morrisettes "Jagged Little Pill," Dave Matthews Bands "Everyday": "Piracy is an insidious act performed in an almost offhanded way by people who would never consider stealing anything else. Few people involved in the act of downloading music illegally would walk into a retail store and steal a CD of the same music, or take a CD player or computer to reproduce the music. Its highly likely that you would be caught and arrested, and its also obvious that taking something without paying for it is a fundamentally unfair act. But as everyone knows, you can steal from the Internet without the fear of being caught. But the fundamental unfairness remains. We should honor our artists and their art by paying for their work, like you would pay for anything else. I work with artists, writers, singers and musicians who strive every day to be better at communicating. Its hard work, and requires years of dedication. They deserve to be compensated for the joy they bring to so many others." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:08:21 -0800 (PST) From: doug brown Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry ***PART THREE*** Shaggy, Grammy Award Winner, "Best Reggae AlbumBoombastic": "I understand how it will help life for unsigned bands. It is definitely a window to showcase a lot of bands that probably wouldnt be getting to hear from a lot of these majors, but at the same time you all need to pay us now . . . I mean, straight up! This is some hard work. I was in the military for four years, man, and Im telling you the music business is some hard work . . . You need some sort of pension. And if they cant regulate it to where the artist gets paid, well, then its not that great of an idea because even the unsigned artists, at some point, theyre going to want to get paid for their things also." Scott Stapp, Frontman and Songwriter for Creed: "Everyone I know is excited about all the possibilities the Internet has to offer. As a musician, the Internet has made it possible for me to share my music with people that could have never been reached by conventional methods. It has been taboo for artists to speak out concerning the business side of their music. As a child I created music to express my inner thoughts and feelings, and that purity has stayed with me throughout. The day I decided to share my music with the world, was the day I decided to walk the fine line between art and commerce. I have been blessed in that I do what I love and can support my family with what I create. When my music is given away it is stealing. I need not defend my motives for making music, but the distribution of my music has made me business conscious. I have decided to sell my music to anyone who wants it, that is how I feed my family, just like a doctor, lawyer, judge, or teacher. Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but my music is like my home. These file sharing services are sneaking in the back door and robbing me blind." Don Henley, Grammy Award Winning, Multi-Platinum Artist: "The bottom line is this; The works of recording artists are being stolen and disseminated over the Internet without fair and just compensation for those artists. This is the way songwriters and singers make their living, and stealing that music and giving it away for free is not right. Then theres the absurd argument that, Rock stars are wealthy, and therefore, its all right to steal from them. But the majority of singers and songwriters and recording artists in this business are not wealthy. Theyre struggling from hand to mouth, day to day, and they need fair and just compensation for their work. These file sharing services are stealing from the people who create that music." Boston Globe  May 5, 2000 Aimee Mann, Former Member of Til Tuesday, Gold Award Winning Singer/Songwriter: "If artists don't get paid for making music, how are they supposed to survive? Stealing from an artist is not the best way to show your appreciation for their work." Entertainment Weekly, March 31, 2000 Denyce Graves, World-Renowned Mezzo-Soprano Opera Singer: "There are laws against piracy in this country, and unless we enforce them, how do we expect any other country to care about protecting our rights from piracy?" Sarah Brightman, Platinum Award Winning Artist: "We really appreciate true fans who buy the music instead of ripping off the Internet. Use the internet to check it out, but please support the artists you love by buying the music." Jimmy Jam, Renowned Producer, Writer, Collaborator with Janet Jackson, Mary J. Blige, Prince: "It sounds kind of parochial to say this, but you have to play by the rules. There's rules that have been established over a long period of time. The rules aren't always the right rules, but you have to follow them." Steven Curtis Chapman, Grammy-Award Winning Christian Artist: "A lot more goes into a CD than it may appear. The price of a CD doesn't just go back to the record company. Everyone who works with me to record and distribute my music makes a living and supports their families from CD sales as well. It's a big network of people from my co-producer, the engineers, my band all the way to assembly line people who help to manufacture the CDs and the truck drivers who get them to the stores. There are some new legitimate websites like burnitfirst.com that provide an alternative to illegal burning. I want to encourage my listeners to use sites such as this, and to buy instead of burning illegally. On behalf of the team who works alongside me, we'd appreciate it." Trent Reznor, member of Nine Inch Nails: "Just because technology exists where you can duplicate something, that doesnt give you the right to do it. Theres nothing wrong with giving some tracks away or bits of stuff thats fine. But its not everybodys right. Once I record something, its not public domain to give it away freely. And thats not trying to be the outdated musician who is trying to stop technology. I love technology." Scott Weiland, Lead Singer of Stone Temple Pilots: "There should be some way to compensate the artists. Because obviously they wouldn't be providing a service if they weren't getting compensated, it's not a free service, it's not like it's done just to please fans. Everything that's done is done for a profit." Jonatha Brooke, Folk-Singer/Songwriter: "It pisses me off and I resent it. I spent $15,000 on my Web site. I paid a publicist for a year and a half out of my own pocket. And now some kid's going to tell me my catalog should be free? They're just entrepreneurs setting themselves up to make a ton of money off other people's work. Where's the compensation for the artists? I know people using these illegal sites are chuckling about kicking big, bad record labels. But as evil as the record companies may be, at least they're paying for your recording budget, and at least they're promoting you, and paying for tour support. We can make a new model-yeah right. It's laughable. Those people have no idea how the music business works. Because unless you're Alanis Morissette or Dave Matthews, you're not making money on the road. It's all I can do to break even on tour. And the only reason to tour is to promote the sale of my CD." Salon, March 25, 2000 Anastacia, Top-Ten Single "Im Outta Love": "It is particularly discouraging to young artists and songwriters trying to get their foot in the proverbial door of the music business. I suppose it should be a compliment that people dig your music so much that they're swapping it online. But thievery is thievery. If you dig an artist that much, then you should want to help keep that artist alive by purchasing the actual recording." Billboard, April 15, 2000 Deborah Harry, Lead Singer of Blondie: "Artists should be compensated for the work that they do." Art Alexakis, Lead Singer of Everclear: "I think the fact that they are stealing recorded music is something that we have to stop. It's taking money out of my kid's mouth. That's the way I look at it. It's wrong. It's inherently wrong. It's stealing." Damian Kulash, Member of OK Go: "Look, we understand that you can't beat "free", and that no amount of corporate wrangling or impoverished artists' whining will keep technology at bay. People can make perfect copies of music now, and there is obviously no going back. Mostly, we just care about making something we love and getting it to our fans. And, of course, we hope the fans care enough about us to buy what we've made. After all, we worked extremely hard on the whole CD, not just the ones and zeros on its surface. I know that when I discover a new band, it's pretty important to me to hold their record in my hands, to look at the artwork, to read the lyrics and the credits...in short, I want to get the whole thing, and I hope our fans do too". Victoria Shaw, Country Music Singer/Songwriter: "As an artist and songwriter I believe that this is an issue that needs to be looked at and taken very seriously. In what other industry can someone take a product, not created by themselves, make money from the use of that product and not compensate the original creator? Someone needs to take a stand and protect the songwriters and artist." ===== - -Doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:08:21 -0800 (PST) From: doug brown Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry ***PART TWO*** Luciano Pavarotti, Legendary Tenor: "Everyone who loves music should be able to enjoy the wonderful recordings that are created. But it's no secret that it takes hard work, expense and many people to make great recordings. Artists and composers particularly the younger ones - will not stand a chance of creating music in the future if their recordings are simply stolen in this way." Renie Fleming, Grammy-Award Winning Classical Artist, "Bel Canto": "A new recording is an immensely personal and heartfelt statement, representing the culmination of countless hours of work and involving the collaboration and commitment of numerous dedicated artists. In the case of my recordings, this can sometimes include an orchestra and chorus -- literally hundreds of musicians -- not to mention producers, technicians and many others who depend on this income. We are thrilled that people want to hear what we have done. They can show their respect and support by purchasing the CD legally. If not, we will all soon be unable to continue to make quality recordings." Brian Wilson, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Inductee and Founding Member of the Beach Boys: "There are two issues here. First is the creative issue. When I decide not to release a piece of MY WORK, there is always a good reason for it. I created it, I should have the final say on whether it should be released or not. The other, of course, is obvious. It's the financial issue. I would never expect to hire anyone and not pay them for their services. When people buy counterfeits, the artist and the creator are not getting paid for their work. It's as simple as that. If my fans feel that I am unable to decide what work of mine should be released and feel that I do not have the right to make a living doing it, then why bother? The bottom line is the fan who is saying, "Oh man you're the greatest," is in reality stealing from you and your family, and more importantly not respecting your judgment on what you think is appropriate to bear your name." The Barenaked Ladies, One of the Best-Selling Canadian Bands Of All Time: "When the Gap went online, T-shirts didn't become free." Mandy Moore, Platinum Award Winning Artist, "So Real": "While I admit that what I do for a living is a dream come true, its still a job and how I make a living. Illegally downloading music is the same thing as asking an artist to truly work 100 percent for free. I spend a great deal of time and money on charities, but at the end of the day I would expect and hope to be compensated fairly for my work. Its not a lot to ask for." John Rzeznik, Member of the Multi-Platinum Award Winning Group, the Goo Goo Dolls: "If you rob artists of their means of earning, eventually there will be no art of consequence or substance." Steve Smith, Member of Dirty Vegas: "It's having an effect on us as a new band. If you stop buying the CDs in the shops, then we dont get to make the music. We're lucky, we got a chance. We're only just starting out and when we were doing our album, we were thinking about what would make people want to go out and buy our album. We took a lot of care to make a decision on what artwork to have on the CD so that you'd want to read the booklet instead of having a tape that someone's written Dirty Vegas on the front of. So if you are a real fan, then buy it." Mark Knopfler, Member of Dire Straits: "You might as well walk into a record store, put the CD's in your pocket and walk out without paying for them." Damon Dash, Executive Producer, Roc-A-Fella Records: "At the ROC, we work for ours. Taking food out of our artists' mouths is despicable, disrespectful, cowardly and dishonorable." Stephan Jenkins, Lead Singer of Multi-Platinum Group Third Eye Blind: "Burning CDs is like an arranged marriage and the artists are the shot-gun brides. When nobody asks your permission, things tend to go bad." Fabolous, Gold Award-Winning Artist for "Ghetto Fabolous": "Being from the streets, I understand why youd want those two $5 joints and all that, but we have to look at the big picture now. Hip Hop is a product made for us by us that has changed the world. Dont let bootleggers hurt a business that has given us the power to run things our own way. Lets pave the way for the next generation of rappers who are going to need our support in a game thats getting tougher every day." Danny Federici, Solo Artist and Sr. Member of the E Street Band: "Although music is a blessing, the parasites of piracy pollute its specialness. We dont need digital pimps robbing us blind of our own creativity and the fruits thereof." Joshua Bell, Internationally-Known Violinist: "I love music. I also love the Internet. Unfortunately with the Internet has come piracy. Piracy is very bad for music. What can you do to stop piracy? Refuse to participate, its as simple as that." James Grundler, Singer/Songwriter, Member of Paloalto: "I live with my drummer and guitarist and we have no money. Our survival is based solely on the purchase of our music. Music is not free. Even the street performer gets a dime in his box." Kelly Price, R&B Singer, "Priceless": "[Piracy] threatens everything about the legitimate side of the business. From the artist perspective, they are raped because more often than not they don't make a lot of money on sales anyway, so what little they would see is largely reduced by piracy. Its also a huge disrespect when those artists have emptied their soul for the whole world to hear and see, and to know that someone standing on a corner can pimp them for $5. I wish it was taken more seriously than it is. Artists arent the only ones who lose. The fans lose all of the quality and don't realize that in the eyes of the artist true fans would never support that in the name of saving a few dollars, anyway. It's not a good feeling." Jim Donovan, Member of Rusted Root: "Think of recorded music in terms of equal energy exchange, just like buying a candy bar. You can't just walk out of the store with the candy without visiting the checkout counterthey'd arrest ya. If you want to keep it sweet for everyone, support the musicians you love and buy their discs. Save the trading of music for live shows." Carl Sturken & Evan Rogers, Grammy-Award Winning Songwriters/Producers: "How would you feel if someone came in to your home and began taking everything they wanted that looked cool, and gave you nothing in return. Pretty crazy, right? Thats how we feel about the piracy of music. When we were growing up, saving your money to go to the record store was one of the more important things in life. Most of the teenagers we know today are far more interested in buying a CD burner and downloading whatever music they want for free. We think that pretty much says it all." Eminem, Grammy Award Winning Rapper: "I'm sorry; when I worked 9 to 5, I expected to get a paycheck every week. It's the same with music; if I'm putting my heart and all my time into music, I expect to get rewarded for that. I work hard and anybody can just throw a computer up and download my music for free. It could kill the whole purpose of making music. It's not just about the moneyIt's the thrill of going to the store; you can't wait till that artist's release date, taking the wrapper off the CD and putting the CD in to see what it sounds like. I've seen those little sissies on TV, talking about how 'The working people should just get music for free,' I've been a working person. I never could afford a computer, but I always bought and supported the artists that I liked. I always bought a Tupac CD, a Biggie CD, a Jay-Z CD. If you can afford a computer, you can afford to pay $16 for my CD." Wall of Sound  May 17, 2000 Elton John, Legendary Grammy Award Winning Artist: "I am excited about the opportunities presented by the Internet because it allows artists to communicate directly with fans. But the bottom line must always be respect and compensation for creative work. I am against Internet piracy and it is wrong for to promote stealing from artists online." Lou Reed, Grammy Award Winning Singer/Songwriter: "Artists, like anyone else, should be paid for their work." Neil Young, Legendary, Multi-Platinum Award Winning Artist: "I dont like to have a record out and have people hear versions that we dont want them to hear. With the Internet, there is no more privacy and not even the chance to express yourself in front of your audience in the intimacy of a concert that lets songs evolve. You cant do this because they immediately get circulated." Yahoo! Entertainment News  January 31, 2001 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:12:07 -0000 From: "Libby Graham" Subject: Re: OV: OT - The recent Oxford Union Debate - Re: State of the Music Industry This is a really complex argument. However, one of the main reasons for the reduction in sales is the more efficient way the second hand music market is working. The dealers are all over the web. people can sell of their unwanted CDs on ebay etc - and people can buy them way below the grossly inflated proces that record shops charge. Instead of us bemoaning a bad purchase we can re-sell it to recoup some of the loss! And people looking to buy can do so from the comfort of their own home instead of trudging around record fairs and 2nd hand music shops. Both of whom are now suffering from the competition from the Web. For new stuff I tend to use CD Wow (http://www6.cd-wow.com/) because #8.99 for a new CD is a reasonable price to pay (this includes postage) if I am not going into Reading in the near future. So I can pick up Mark Knopflers last 2 CDs for that price, however with HMV one is #13.99 and the other is #16.99. But, there is a local independent record shop which will sell new releases at #9.99 to #10.99 on average - I tend to go there rather than the major shops in Reading. It's a choice we all make - but buying second hand does NOT get any money to the recording artists either. The record companies are bloated by excess which they pass on to the record buyer - how can #16.99 for a CD be justified - they cost substantially less to record than vinyl did - but at no time has this price reduction ever been passed onto the consumer. I personally don't download music (because I can't be bothered and already have too much to listen to) but I can't see the difference between it and buying second hand CDs when it comes down to what the recording artists get. Both have the same effect. Artists need to utilise the new technology for themselves, have some tracks downloadable as "tasters" and cut out the labels and organise their own lives. They will get more of the profts back to them and they won't be in eternal debt to megacorps. When we swent to see The Christians - they had produced their own live CDs, had new album samplers for sale - and they came out to speak to the people. Simple, easy and effective. They sold loads. And I bet they got a very large part of the price if the CD. Libby - ----- Original Message ----- From: "doug brown" To: ------------------------------ End of oppositeview-digest V4 #270 **********************************