From: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org (oppositeview-digest) To: oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Subject: oppositeview-digest V4 #50 Reply-To: oppositeview@smoe.org Sender: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk oppositeview-digest Wednesday, February 27 2002 Volume 04 : Number 050 Today's Subjects: ----------------- OV: RE: oppositeview-digest V4 #49 ["Johnson, Tony D" ] OV: Re: LLC & U.S. release ["Guy-Michael Grande" ] Re: Subject: OV: The fools! Retort! ["Jane Armstrong" ] OV: =?iso-8859-1?Q?more_releases?= ["=?iso-8859-1?Q?Kevin_Cawthorne?=" ] [none] ["Jen Woyan" ] OV: Payola [Kristy McDonald ] OV: Plug for New Album in U.S. [JackP87@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:34:02 -0000 From: "Johnson, Tony D" Subject: OV: RE: oppositeview-digest V4 #49 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:10:15 -0800 (PST) From: doug brown Subject: OV: The fools! Retort! 1) Why would a small record label want to take on a band with almost no recognition in the US, no fan base to speak of, whose last album and singles (a few years ago even) were complete flops, without even hearing this one? Which BTW if it's anything like the first single will be an even bigger flop? Especially when there are hundreds of unsigned formula bands that could conceivably have a huge hit and sell a lot of Pepsi within even a few months. 2) I don't think you people have any idea how radio stations work. In the US they are all owned by three major companies that all have connections (as in parent companies) to the music labels. The radio stations decide on a format to follow based on demographics to generate the most advertising income. They then have a station music programmer (lubed from above) who tells the djs something like 75%-100% of the songs that they will play. In short radio stations are more blatantly than ever shills for music labels. So why would they want to get hundreds of emails about some band that doesn't even have a US label and that they have absolutely no intention of ever supporting? Answer is, they don't. Love, Doug Sadly, Doug has got it spot on. :-( Cheers, Tony - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information contained in or attached to this email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are not authorised to and must not disclose, copy, distribute, or retain this message or any part of it. It may contain information which is confidential and/or covered by legal professional or other privilege (or other rules or laws with similar effect in jurisdictions outside England and Wales). The views expressed in this email are not necessarily the views of Centrica plc, and the company, its directors, officers or employees make no representation or accept any liability for its accuracy or completeness unless expressly stated to the contrary. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:38:40 -0600 From: "Ed Minton" Subject: Subject: OV: The fools! Retort! >Sadly, Doug has got it spot on. :-( Well, he certainly has a point. But how can it be that artists such as Ryan Adams and The Strokes are apparently viable marketable commodities, and yet the Dels are not? Neither of these artists can _really_ sing, and while Ryan does have a certain knack for turning a phrase, I personally wouldn't put him on par with Justin. Go figure. Seems to me that as has always been the case, if presented with the material, the public will respond to a good tune regardless of the source. Perhaps the Dels and their "management" are not so good at greasing the correct palms. Ed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:35:15 -0500 From: "Guy-Michael Grande" Subject: OV: Re: LLC & U.S. release Thank you, Debbie! Anyone on the list who has any questions, please feel free to post them here or email me off-list if they'd like. I'd also be glad to go over the specifics of setting up an indie label if the group preferred to start up a new LLC label specifically for this one release (and share whatever knowledge I do have). Though Route Five is a modest independent, our publicity and marketing team has worked with national media, our graphics team is strong, our distribution strong, and IF this should come to pass, I believe my faith alone in the dels - -- let alone the quality of their new record -- would be enough reason for our investors' enthusiastic support. (For an idea of what our "little engine" has accomplished in the past year and a half, visit either website below and see what RFR has done for an unknown artist like me.) 8=) Thanks again for listening, Guy-Michael Grande Route Five Records www.guy-michael.com www.cdbaby.com/guymichael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:50:20 -0000 From: "Jane Armstrong" Subject: Re: Subject: OV: The fools! Retort! > Well, he certainly has a point. But how can it be that artists such as Ryan > Adams and The Strokes are apparently viable marketable commodities, and yet > the Dels are not? I suspect there are two factors here - firstly the age thing. Justin and Co are no longer "spring chickens". Iain's going to be 40 in a couple of months time. Secondly, they have had two "goes" - Chrysalis and A&M. And whilst they did moderately well with A&M they didn't set the world alight. The record companies know this and so they're not likely to get a third bite of the cherry. With radio stations like BBC Radio 1 who won't play artists over 25, and the singles buying public (generalising here) going for boy bands and the younger artists, Del Amitri are just not marketable - they're "has beens". There are hundreds of young singer/songwriter guitar bands out there to take their place - and some of them may make much more money for the record companies. Why would the 18-25 year olds go for oldies like Del Amitri when they have Travis - who are arguably Del Amitri for the next generation? It's sad - but that's the way things go.... Jane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:01:09 -0000 From: Hopping James W Subject: RE: Subject: OV: The fools! Retort! I would probably also say that Dels don't get that kind of coverage because they have been doing much the same for many years. When Stock Aitken and Waterman were making Aussie Soap actresses into pop stars, Del Amitri were writing heartfelt songs about relationships etc. When Britpop broke, Del Amitri were writing heartfelt songs about relationships etc. When record companies were manufacturing dancers into pop acts, Del Amitri were writing heartfelt songs about relationships etc. There lies the problem. They have always done what they do and it has never been regarded as particularly fashionable. This I would say is the reason however they have lasted so long. You can't go out of fashion if you have never been in fashion. Jim - -----Original Message----- From: Jane Armstrong [mailto:janea@delamitri.co.uk] Sent: 26 February 2002 14:50 To: oppositeview@smoe.org Subject: Re: Subject: OV: The fools! Retort! > Well, he certainly has a point. But how can it be that artists such as Ryan > Adams and The Strokes are apparently viable marketable commodities, and yet > the Dels are not? I suspect there are two factors here - firstly the age thing. Justin and Co are no longer "spring chickens". Iain's going to be 40 in a couple of months time. Secondly, they have had two "goes" - Chrysalis and A&M. And whilst they did moderately well with A&M they didn't set the world alight. The record companies know this and so they're not likely to get a third bite of the cherry. With radio stations like BBC Radio 1 who won't play artists over 25, and the singles buying public (generalising here) going for boy bands and the younger artists, Del Amitri are just not marketable - they're "has beens". There are hundreds of young singer/songwriter guitar bands out there to take their place - and some of them may make much more money for the record companies. Why would the 18-25 year olds go for oldies like Del Amitri when they have Travis - who are arguably Del Amitri for the next generation? It's sad - but that's the way things go.... Jane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:18:31 -0600 From: "Scott Smith" Subject: OV: Maybe it's the way to go... You know, I was thinking about the whole situation with lack of support/label in US for the dels... Maybe the band could consider forming their own company. One of the other bands I listen to (Marillion: http://www.marillion.com) has had similar bad luck with labels in the US (although they were signed to EMI at one time). They have formed their own record label for distribution of their product and have marketed themselves quite well on the strength of the internet. Probably the pinnacle of this was in 1997 when the fans of the band started a grass-roots movement to bring the band to America for a short tour. The fans raised about $60,000US and the fans got a tour and later a Live CD of the tour. More recently, the band asked the fans to pre-pay for the band's new cd...prior to it being recorded. Those who pre-ordered received a special two-cd set (complete with a listing of all people who pre-ordered) while the standard release which was partially financed by the pre-orders is available in (some) stores and via the internet. Another benefit is the band is very much in tune (no pun intended) with the fans; the have good communication with their fans...even allowing fans to suggest set lists and the like. Marillion have done very well with a crappy record industry situation that doesn't favor bands with a smaller following. They have taken control of their own destiny and the band and its fans are better off because of it. I don't doubt that if our boys took a similar route, they would be able to continue given us great music as long as the band exists.... Scott in Milwaukee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:30:28 -0000 (GMT) From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Kevin_Cawthorne?=" Subject: OV: =?iso-8859-1?Q?more_releases?= Just FYI, these are the other releases scheduled the same day as "Just Before You Leave", March 25th Tall Paul - Everybody's A Rockstar Sheryl Crow - Soak Up The Sun Usher - U Don't Have To Call - -- Kevin Cawthorne Webmaster The Official Del Amitri Website (UK) www.delamitri.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:40:35 -0000 From: "Jane Armstrong" Subject: OV: Re: Maybe it's the way to go... Scott My husband is a big Marillion fan, and he's joined in with some of the things you mentioned and pre-ordered the CD. It's certainly impressive what they've done. I am also involved with an artist called John Otway. He had a hit with then-time partner Wild Willy Barrett back in 1977. This year is the 25th anniversary of "the hit" and also his 50th birthday and the fans have promised him another hit. (Every year we buy him something - a theramin, a scooter, a didgeridoo and a set of bagpipes are amongst previous years' pressies). We've got all sort of things going on - special events, parties etc. There's a weekend planned at the Otway family's country home (Yes, there was a Sir John Otway) in a couple of week's time, and over Easter we're all going up to Abbey Road - 900 of us - to record backing vocals on a B side for the next "hit" followed by a free gig at the Mean Fiddler. We will get to vote for the A side and the single will then be released on an independent label - and our names will appear on the CD sleeve. 350 of us went to Dunkerque in France for the weekend. We've even organised with a small brewery to have a beer brewed called Otway's Next Hit, which the fans are arranging to have distributed to some of the pubs he is playing in. So confident is he, that he's booked the London Palladium for a gig on the Sunday the charts are announced with his single up there in the top ten. We're even being filmed for a documentary. We've set up a website to keep people abreast of what's going on www.otnews.net Three years ago one of his songs was voted No 7 in the BBC Britain's Favourite Lyrics poll - above Bob Dylan. This was all down to fan power. We also voted to get a clip of him on the Old Grey Whistle Test DVD released last year. We are sending out press releases to all the newspapers, magazines and radio stations, and getting as much publicity as possible, We're working on people to get him appearances on shows like Never Mind The Buzzcocks and Steve Wright's radio show. Jonathan Ross seems interested for his show too. A lot of fans are working very hard. If we don't succeed with the hit it's not for want of trying!! Jane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:40:57 -0800 From: Kristy McDonald Subject: OV: Re: The fools! Retort! >>I don't think you people have any idea how radio stations work. In the US they are all owned by three major companies that all have connections (as in parent companies) to the music labels. The radio stations decide on a format to follow based on demographics to generate the most advertising income. They then have a station music programmer (lubed from above) who tells the djs something like 75%-100% of the songs that they will play. In short radio stations are more blatantly than ever shills for music labels. So why would they want to get hundreds of emails about some band that doesn't even have a US label and that they have absolutely no intention of ever supporting? Answer is, they don't.>> I DOOO have an idea how radio works - I've helped program. Stations aren't "lubed from above" as Doug so eloquently states it - that's called Payola and that's illegal. Granted, my experience is all Canadian, but seeing we have two kick ass hockey teams and a pair of skaters advertising for Crest, our image is TEMPORARILY squeaky clean ; ) Large market radio stations aren't paid, but certainly encouraged by record companies what to play. Record companies send out what they deem to be the month's largest CD's for Music Director approval, along with a compilation CD that has that month's singles for radio airplay. As someone who played the HELL out of KTTG and ATLTK, I can attest to the fact that the Del's were mid-compilation, not a the top of the pile and that was while they were still with A&M. Why did they get played? Because the jocks liked them. We were still able to pick our own tunes then, and it was a fairly small market. In my last station, it was a medium market and quite frankly, we played what was top 40 on the charts. We broke NOTHING! If it hadn't been on the charts for x-amount of weeks, forget airplay. It's that simple. The large markets are where the songs are made or broken, and I think that e-mail from fans can be a powerful tool. Look at it this way . . . my demographic is ideally male 18-34. Most of these guys are out buying Nickelback. Yeah, the band is big, but as I programmer, I'd play the song because it attracts my demographic who buy products advertised on my station. In turn the clients are happy and my sales revenue goes up making the station a lot of money. It's all about money, and make no mistake - that's where the programmers eye is these days. My advice is to take a look at the station list that was sent out last week. Look for stations that fit the "Triple A" format - Adult Album Alternative". The station closest to me in Canada that fits the bill is 100.3 the Q in Victoria, or KMTT the Mountain in Seattle. Playlists include Lloyd Cole, Matchbox 20, Bonnie Raitt, U2, The Barenaked Ladies . . . These are stations that have male AND female demographics, listeners with a fair amount of disposable income and listeners that HATE mainstream top 40 and classic rock formats. Del Amitri has a really wide fan base across several music genres as is proven by the people on this Message Board. If you're going to mount a grassroots campaign, that's where to start. Doug was on the right track in that you have to play their game. Remember, you could improve their bottom line by supporting their advertisers. They want to keep you happy. Guys like "Tank" are dickheads and should be treated as such. As a matter of fact, I want to write his boss and have him called on the carpet. Ha ha ha. I've said it once, and I'll say it again . . . I believe in this band. Whether or not DOUG buys the album, he still supports them and so do we all. Hell, I'd work for the band myself and try my damndest to get them played. I remember the Barenaked Ladies having to leap similar hurdles, and look at them now. It's a matter of surrounding yourself with people who give a shit. I think I've more than thrown my two cents in. Kristy in Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:34:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Jen Woyan" Subject: [none] douge_brown@yahoo.com Subject: Re: OV: Re: The fools! Retort! Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:28:07 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Feb 2002 19:28:08.0159 (UTC) FILETIME=[B852D6F0:01C1BEFB] Sender: owner-oppositeview@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Thank you for the insight - I for one found it educational...unfortunately it doesn't parse for the States. However, neither is it as cynically simple as Doug makes it out to be. Yes, "Payola" is technically illegal, but the labels and the radio pluggers HAVE found legal ways to circumvent the law and reach their common goals. (sorry for using the same sources as before - they're the only ones I can get to right away...you get the idea, though) Payola City - In the wild world of urban radio, money buys hits -- and nobody asks questions. http://www.salon.com/ent/music/feature/2001/07/24/urban_radio/print.ht ml Fighting pay-for-play - Sources in the music industry call for a federal clampdown on the new payola. http://www.salon.com/ent/music/feature/2001/04/03/payola2/print.html Also, here are a couple of interesting articles from the last few days - -check out that now (thanks to the Napster sitch) the major labels will be Federally investigated to see if they have violated antitrust statutes in their practices...finally.... Napster Wins One Round in Music Case - NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/23/technology/23MUSI.html?pagewanted=pr int "America's major record companies, which successfully sued to shut down the online music-swapping service Napster, suffered a setback today as the judge in the case allowed Napster to seek evidence that the record companies colluded to monopolize the digital music market..." For the Industry, Less to Celebrate at the Grammys - NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/25/business/media/25TUNE.html?ei=5040&e n=ee752493c330d620&ex=1015304400&partner=MOREOVER&pagewanted=print "...But several music managers said complaints of piracy were being used as a smoke screen by recording companies, which they faulted for having failed to nurture new and innovative acts while hewing to the corporate cost-cutting demands of the big-media recording companies...'Everyone wants quick profits, the talent is not given the time to mature,' said John Marx, SVP at the William Morris...'Everyone wants results right away. Talent doesn't grow and blossom that way.'....[Courtney Love's case against UMG continues]...'Contracts are so complex and contradictory that artists have absolutely no idea what royalties they're due or even how many records they've actually sold...The court in my case has ordered Universal to hand over the kind of manufacturing and accounting records that no artist has ever been allowed to see. We haven't seen them yet because Universal is stalling but those documents will prove what artists have known for years about royalty rip-offs.'" One mroe note - please be patient re: the outline, etc. - my boss actually wanted to get some work done the past 2 days - and THANK YOU to all who posted with insight and interest...we'll see what's next... Cheers, Jen in Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:29:18 -0800 From: Kristy McDonald Subject: OV: Payola Hey all! I've just waded my way thorough some of the articles posted by Salon.com about ClearChannel. While I don't doubt that payola does happen, I believe that it's all done at a corporate level and smaller stations see few kickbacks not in the form of concert tickets or plum promotional opportunities. I love the wool that covers my eyes, and I refuse to believe that the Crest endorsing, gold medal winning, squeaky clean Canadian image I try an uphold could fall victim to something sooo dirty and base! But then, most British Columbians elected a Premier who's a good friend of big business, hates labour and forces most to live BELOW the poverty line, save a token tax break that has been all but eaten up by a series of tax increases. But I digress. I stand by the belief that radio has to listen to listeners because they have to keep up revenue. As a member if the radio industry, I take it upon myself to apologize for the policies implemented by fat cats who care nothing for the music and the artists - the reason I personally decided to enter the business 10 years ago. The sad fact is that I haven't been able to help break an artist I believe in yet. But there's always tomorrow. Kristy in Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:37:25 EST From: JackP87@aol.com Subject: OV: Plug for New Album in U.S. This turned out better than I expected. I requested Kiss This Thing Goodbye on XM Radio (a nationwide satellite radio network). I e-mailed the request and mentioned the new album. Not only did they play it, but the DJ announced the new album by name and said that even though it would only be released in the U.K., it shouldn't be too hard to get for fans over here. I don't know how many subscribers there are to XM radio, but at least it's a nationwide audience and it's rush hour for half the country right now. For any of you subscribers out there, the channel I'm talking about is the XM Cafe. OK, I feel like I've done my part now. Cheers, Jack ------------------------------ End of oppositeview-digest V4 #50 *********************************