From: owner-oppositeview-digest@smoe.org (oppositeview-digest)
To: oppositeview-digest@smoe.org
Subject: oppositeview-digest V2 #147
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oppositeview-digest    Wednesday, November 1 2000    Volume 02 : Number 147



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  OV: Re: dela who?                                         [Shevale@aol.com]
  Re: OV: OT  Let's hear it for.... + Dela who? (warning: this is long)  [Lo]
  OV: Re: get the message across  ["Susan & C. Reid Gardner" <creidg@bellsou]
  OV: RE: Dela who?    [Jon Hammer <Jon.Hammer@CommerceNetwork.globalec.com>]
  [none]                                          [ian_stickland@uk.ibm.com ]
  OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V2 #146  [Michael Lee Newman <newman.71@osu.ed]
  Re: OV: RE: Dela who?                                    [Moer4472@aol.com]
  OV: Easter Egg update            ["Chris Fleming" <ChrisF@delamitri.co.uk>]
  OV: obligation          [Leah D Schenkenberg <qualinestiprincess@juno.com>]
  OV: Re: RE: Dela who?              ["Hilary Gray" <hilary@delamitri.co.uk>]
  Re: OV: Nothing Ever Happens unless you listen?  ["Hilary Gray" <hilary@de]
  Re: OV: Nothing Ever Happens unless you listen?  ["debbie" <debbie_c@csi.c]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:38:11 EST
From: Shevale@aol.com
Subject: OV: Re: dela who?

Once again, I'll delurk to add my two pence -- not that most of you will like 
or agree with what I've got to say.  

We're fans of a band.  It's not up to us to demand material from an artist.  
Or to get pissy if that material is a long time coming.  If the dels (or any 
other artist, for that matter) were concerned about market share, timing of 
releases, publicity, and maintaining and growing a fan base, then they would 
expend the energy and resources to accomplish that (as in the case of blur 
and lloyd cole, just to mention two who've been mentioned here).

Plainly, these are not the issues with which the dels are concerned. As a 
case in point: they've taken an awfully long time to release new material; 
they and their management are not spending the time necessary to cultivate 
new avenues of publicity and to retain good relationships with established 
contacts, and they've canceled the tidbit of electricity that they could have 
generated for rabid fans, many of whom are on this list, when they've put off 
(indefinitely, as far as I can tell) their webcast interview/webchat 
(whatever it was called).  That's their choice as artists and business 
people.  

Not everyone can be as ambitious, media savvy, and generally smart as we, eh?

Now I'll take my sarky butt off to work,
Sherry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:23:59 -0800
From: Lori Royal-Gordon <lorir-g@juno.com>
Subject: Re: OV: OT  Let's hear it for.... + Dela who? (warning: this is long)

Jane wrote:
> >......OV'er Lori Royal-Gordon!  Her second book was recently published
and
> >is available on Amazon.com.  It's published under the name Lauren
Royal and
> >is called Emerald.

Ah, Jane, you're so sweet!  Let's hear it for Jane, my official UK
cheerleader!

Alison wrote:
> >Wait a second, I thought Caithren went WITHOUT a bodice in this one...
;)

Ah, Alison, you're such a smart-aleck!  Sheesh, Cait leaves her bodice on
in at least half the chapters. <vbg> Besides, weren't you just telling me
a couple days ago that I write intelligent historical romance, not
"bodice rippers"?  Or was that only to my face?  (I can rag on Alison
'cause she's my pal. <g>  Loved the chopped liver poem, Ali!)

Thanks also to Hilary and Susan and everyone else who's read my books.
(I've heard from some privately.)  I really try to keep the shameless
self-promoting to a minimum, but it means a lot to get such support from
my friends on this list.

Okay, enough of that.  Back on topic.  I feel a bit strange going against
the majority here, but I do feel that perhaps some of this anger at the
Dels is misplaced.  I too am disappointed that I haven't had any new
music to hear in so many years, and I will be absolutely devastated if
that long break results in the public forgetting them and their next
album failing--which I'm afraid is a real possibility--especially if it
means they won't be touring anymore as a result.  Dels concerts with all
my Dels friends (YOU people!) are some of the best memories of my life.

But that's me thinking about ME, selfishly, and I feel like I need to
step back and think about the band for a minute.  They've been at this
for something like seventeen years, and I'm here to tell you from
experience that creative work can take a lot out of a person.  A LOT. 
I'm sure there are many people on this list who can relate to what I'm
saying.  So there's a chance that this break wasn't so much lazy or even
voluntary as it was necessary.  Perhaps they had to step back and refill
the creative well, even if it meant risking their careers.  These are
intelligent men--I'm sure we all agree that no one less than brilliant
could make that music!--and I feel certain they would realize the risk
they were taking should they make a decision like that.  But they could
have been at a point, mentally, where they felt they had no choice. 
Burnout is a very real thing, and working in spite of it would likely
mean releasing material they wouldn't be proud of later--perhaps the one
road to career devastation that they weren't willing to take.

Of course this is all speculation, and they could just be lazy.  But I'd
like to think not.

The other thing I'd like to say (and I'll be ducking and running after
this) is if they did decide to be lazy and destroy their careers, well,
it's their lives and their prerogative.  If after all these years they
decide for whatever reason that they're no longer enjoying making
music--writing or recording or touring, or all three--who are we to tell
them they can't stop for a while or forever?

I frankly don't understand the complaints that the Dels are acting
"selfish," or this general sentiment that they owe us, as their fans,
anything.  We are their fans, not their friends.  Their webmasters and
the other few people who work tirelessly on their behalf--them they owe a
debt, of gratitude at least (if not more), and yes, it seems that they
have been guilty of acting selfishly toward them.  But the rest of us
should be happy, I think, with the hours upon hours of pleasure we get
from their music.  That's not to say we shouldn't wish for more--at least
in my case, the wishing is unavoidable--but wishing is not the same as
feeling we "deserve" it.

Slinking away,
~Lori (who has a book due in 14 days and really shouldn't be stirring up
trouble)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lauren Royal ~ http://www.laurenroyal.com
AMETHYST and EMERALD ~ both from Signet Books and in stores NOW!
AMBER August 2001 ~ IN PRAISE OF YOUNGER MEN March 2001
Enter my contest to win a genuine pearl and emerald necklace!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 12:22:11 -0500
From: "Susan & C. Reid Gardner" <creidg@bellsouth.net>
Subject: OV: Re: get the message across

Hilary Gray wrote:

> ... A lot of people haven't seen them live for over five years.
> The fact that we are still here talking about them shows we have some kind
> of loyalty. Granted, we on this list are a small minority of Del Amitri fans
> (I hope.
> Seriously.  We're just the technologically enabled obsessives.).  But I do
> think that our loyalty is somewhat taken for granted.
> Kevin, you asked what we wanted.  Well given that there is no fan club, and
> the mailing list seems long dead, I don't think it's much to ask that Alison
> and yourself are kept informed of what's going on.  Whether it's Iain, JPR,
> Mercury or the cat telling you that there is no new news.  You two are the
> only 'official' sources of info out there for the fans and you need
> something to go on the sites.
>
> You have both done
> absolutely tremendous jobs over the past few years and long may it continue.
> ...Given the huge surge in net growth since the
> last album (!) they need to seriously look at their online presence - are
> the two of you going to get the support you need, particularly Alison who
> seems to have been left out on a limb.
>
> You need to tell us what you need *us* to do to get the message across to
> the band/JPR/Mercury/whoever.  Letters, emails, phone calls - what?

 Extremely well said, Hilary,  and I agree 110%.  Kevin AND Alison, I personally
appreciate every minute you have put into your sites and keeping us updated and
informed.   You let us know what we can do, and this Southern Belle will get her
Southern Butt in gear!

T,
Susan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 12:30:03 -0500
From: Jon Hammer <Jon.Hammer@CommerceNetwork.globalec.com>
Subject: OV: RE: Dela who?

OK. I'm going to take an unpopular stance here. I'm still somewhat new and 
hope I don't hit a nerve with too many people. We've all been talking about 
how we're upset with the boys for lack of anything coming out such as the 
new album, new tour, interviews, etc... and we all feel as though the band 
owes it to us to give us something. I have to disagree. The band owes us 
nothing. We, as fans, feel that way because we've become so attached to 
them that we feel there's an obligation on their part to appease us, when 
that couldn't be closer to the truth.

The band is their own entity and the only obligation they would feel is to 
their record company for the contract they've signed and to themselves. I 
would certainly hope that they would like to do something for the fans, but 
if not, its their own business. If we don't like it, there's nothing we can 
do about it.

I've actually had this same discussion with another favorite band of mine, 
Genesis (don't laugh all you youngsters out there). Tony Banks, 
keyboardist, has steadfastly refused to play some older, classic material 
that the die hard fans have craved to hear because he didn't want to play 
it. Instead, he wanted to concentrate on newer material. In additon, there 
is a lot of material from studio recordings, live recordings, video, 
outtakes, that has never seen the light of day and never will because the 
band doesn't want to release it. Again, this has upset fans because they 
feel as though the band *owes* them something for the years of loyalty 
they've shown, by buying albums, attending concerts, collecting 
memoribilia, etc.... IMHO, the band owes us nothing, if they don't want to.

Now saying that, I would hope that Del Amitri would *want* to do something 
for the fans. If nothing else, to keep up our interest. With the internet, 
I would think this could be an easy accomplishment thanks to people like 
Kevin and Alison who run their web sites. A simple email update to them to 
be posted, maybe some pictures that could be scanned, or (dare I think it) 
some rough music tracks that could be converted to MP3 or streaming audio. 
It wouldn't require a lot out of the band and would keep up the interest.

But I still believe that the band doesn't owe us anything, as fans.

Jon Hammer
Powell, Ohio
mailto:Jon.Hammer@CommerceNetwork.globalec.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 13:12:25 -0500 (EST)
From: ian_stickland@uk.ibm.com 
Subject: [none]

Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:52:40 +0000
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To: oppositeview@smoe.org
Message-ID:
<80256989.006232D4.00@d06mta06.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:49:46 +0000
Subject: OV: Delamoans
Sender: owner-oppositeview@smoe.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

Maybe you're being a bit hard on the band. Could the
problem be more
deep seated, ie. the state of the music biz? Unless
you're a Britney,
Christina, 5ive etc, or new and happening (ugh, awful
phrase) or an
established cash cow (U2, Blur and David Bowie) record
companies
are increasingly reluctant to invest. It now costs soo
much money to
promote a single or album such that it charts well,
that it has to sell
a truck load of copies just to recoup the money.

Now the record companies are extremely risk averse,
and brilliant as
the Dels music is, we all know what the popular music
press will write
as a review.

So what happens? The record company push the band down
a route
they don't want to go. They take what they produce and
get listening
surveys done to see if radio stations etc will play
it. The radio stations
say no, it doesn't fit their advertisers client
profiles so the record
company persuade the band that whilst the music's
great, if they want
it to sell, then perhaps they should try so and so.

Net result? It takes bloody ages for the record to
come out. The costs
spiral, the record companies get more nervous so wnat
more control
over what's put out to allay their fears of 'what if
it doesn't sell'. The
artist gets disillusioned big time, hardly what you
need and loses interest
in finishing the damn thing.

Promoters for tours lose interest because they don't
see anything new
to promote, so who will underwrite the tour? Not the
record company,
they'll want that to happen with the new record.

And so it goes on. It's tragic.

Does the net help? I don't know. If the band release
something via the
web, how many people actually buy it? Is it worth it?
It might be great
for keeping up the morale of dedicated fans, but are
there bigger fish
to fry??

Just trying to play devils advocate.

I do think however that given Alison & Kevin devote
their time mainly
for the love of it, that the band should make some
kind of effort to keep
in touch say hello and say what's going on. It's the
easiest and cheapest
thing to keep us feeling happy. But like I said, don't
be too hard on them.
If they are caught in the above trap, I doubt their
spirits will be that
high.
Perhaps it's a pessimistic view, but if it is the case
maybe we should be
asking how we can help cheer them up??




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:21:19 -0500
From: Michael Lee Newman <newman.71@osu.edu>
Subject: OV: Re: oppositeview-digest V2 #146

boundary="============_-1239102409==_ma============"
Sender: owner-oppositeview@smoe.org
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- --============_-1239102409==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ;
format="flowed"

Big Al and Kevin,

I wrote a few lines the other day expressing my
contentment in 
listening to the Del Amitri material I have and LOVE.
This is not in 
any way discrediting what either of you do for the
rest of the Del 
masses who turn to each of you for information. You
both do a great 
job!

Justin Currie has already stated my point so well that
I think I'll 
just let him reiterate here:

And I guess it's up to us to choose the methods by
which we forget

You see, I don't have that forthcoming album of new
material yet, and 
all the information spreading isn't going to get it to
me any faster 
or make the band successful. The band has to want it
to happen. And 
they have to want to inform you and us for us to be
informed. OVers 
have to spread the word beyond this list to effect any
amount of 
success the band might have the next time around. I
personally 
converted some friends this week with a b-side tape.
How about the 
rest of you? Are you spreading the word? You can put
Change 
Everything on when they come over, and when they ask
who that cool 
sounding band is YOU HIT THE REPEAT BUTTON!


So I soldier on and [listen] just like a man

Thanks,

Michael Lee Newman

Newman Designs
INTERIOR DESIGN AND CONSULTING
Michael Lee Newman 2720 East Broad St. Bexley, Ohio
43209
Tel/Fax 614-239-6292 E-Mail: newman.71@osu.edu



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:38:45 EST
From: Moer4472@aol.com
Subject: Re: OV: RE: Dela who?

Also being relatively new to this site, I wholeharedly agree. Sure, I would 
LOVE to hear some Del tunes,  but it is THEIR choice!
Maureen Ragen
West Virginia, USA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:25:21 -0000
From: "Chris Fleming" <ChrisF@delamitri.co.uk>
Subject: OV: Easter Egg update

Hi all

Just to let you know the eegg I put on www.eeggs.com is currently on a score
of 8.2.

I am just outside the Top25 so if you all want to see some exciting chart
action involving the dels go their and vote for the dels eegg.

(If some of you have missed the recent mail go to the link above search for
Del amitri and follow the instructions)

ChrisF
Keep on Smiling

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:31:28 -0600
From: Leah D Schenkenberg <qualinestiprincess@juno.com>
Subject: OV: obligation

Del Amitri is not obligated to pump out a record within 3 or 5 or 7 years
if that is their choice.  But just the same, their fans are not obligated
to buy it, and can't be expected to with such little effort put their
way.

We are the ones who supply them with this job.  They can choose not to
cater to us, but that has reprecussions.  If they don't do anything
within 4 years, we can, effectively, fire them.  And I'm sure that some
people will and/or already have.

I've only been a DA fan for 2 years now...I've only seen them once, a
year and a half ago (and I know I'm one of the luckier ones to see them
so recently).  It's hard for me to imagine being a newbie to an album at
the same time as everyone else...I've been catching up for so long.

Ultimately, it is their choice as far as the record time line, updates,
etc.  And they are free to make that choice.  At the same time, they
aren't entitled to wondering why the album isn't well recieved, isn't
selling, isn't being played, etc. if it's a direct result from their lack
of promotion.

As much as I'd like the new record, more concerts, more accessibility,
etc., they can do (or in this case, not do) whatever they want...as long
as they don't complain later about the results of their actions.

Leah




I remember Sting for years trying to think of a rhyme for "magic", as in
Every Little 
Thing She Does Is Magic. I think the only word he could come up with,
apart from 
'tragic', was 'pelagic', which means 'ocean going'. There I was in my
leather pants 
and punk hairdo, pondering the distinction between ocean-going and
river-going fish.
        ~ Stewart Copeland

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:40:49 -0000
From: "Hilary Gray" <hilary@delamitri.co.uk>
Subject: OV: Re: RE: Dela who?

Interesting debate.....

I totally agree that the band doesn't owe us anything at all in terms of
songs, albums, shows, playing live b-sides etc etc.  You pay your money for
the CD or ticket and you get your product.  End of story.

Where I think the band are lacking is to letting us know what is happening.
A bit more info e.g. a quick email or statement to Kevin and Alison for the
websites once a month or so isn't really asking a lot.  Perhaps we've been
spoiled up to recently.

I really don't have a feel for how much return a band gets for doing the
other 'goodwill' stuff.   Does it increase sales?  They know that we will
buy the new CD anyway, so why do anything especially for us - it's the rest
of the music buying population they need to reach to sell the CDs and get
Justin his number 1 single.  But as Sherry says, that's up to the
band/JPR/Mercury publicity machine.  The Dels been in this industry long
enough to know what's what.   I just get frustrated thinking how much
momentum they've lost since Hatful of Rain.

And back to a very selfish point of view, I'd like to know when they are
touring next so I can plan next year's vacation time!  But I doubt even the
band knows that  :o(

Hilary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:52:45 -0000
From: "Hilary Gray" <hilary@delamitri.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OV: Nothing Ever Happens unless you listen?

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jen Woyan" <jenwoyan@xsite.net>
Sent: 31 October 2000 02:20

>Blur's B-Sides gig from the Electric Ballroom in Camden on September 6th
>(Monday) is now available in archive form, at both 28k and 56K Real Video
>format, from the blur:x website.

A B-side gig?  Oh, we can dream can't we.......?

Hilary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:11:55 -0600
From: "debbie" <debbie_c@csi.com>
Subject: Re: OV: Nothing Ever Happens unless you listen?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Hilary Gray" <hilary@delamitri.co.uk>
To: <oppositeview@smoe.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: OV: Nothing Ever Happens unless you listen?


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jen Woyan" <jenwoyan@xsite.net>
> Sent: 31 October 2000 02:20
>
> >Blur's B-Sides gig from the Electric Ballroom in Camden on September 6th
> >(Monday) is now available in archive form, at both 28k and 56K Real Video
> >format, from the blur:x website.
>
> A B-side gig?  Oh, we can dream can't we.......?
>
> Hilary
>
Oh would that EVER be a dream!  I recall Justin telling me once (when I
asked) that they don't do B-sides live.....however, I won't think any less
of him if he changes his mind. :-)  Heck, I think at this point, most of us
would pay to hear them sing nursery rhymes. LOL

Have a great day!
debbie

------------------------------

End of oppositeview-digest V2 #147
**********************************