From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #586 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, April 13 2015 Volume 2014 : Number 586 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Fountain of sorrow [Anita Gabrielle ] Re: Fountain of sorrow [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Fountain of sorrow [Catherine McKay ] Daisy & Joni's Hospital Stay [Laura O ] RE: Fountain of sorrow ["Susan E. McNamara" ] Re: Fountain of sorrow [Clint Norwood ] RE: Daisy & Joni's Hospital Stay ["Susan E. McNamara" ] Re: Fountain of sorrow [Anita Gabrielle ] Re: SFJAZZ Gala 2015 To Honor Joni Mitchell ["Susan E. McNamara" Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Catherine wrote: > > And, quoting Joni: > > "I always thought the women of song don't get along, and I don't know why that is. I had a hard time with Laura Nyro also, and Joan Baez would have broken my leg if she could, or at least that's the way it felt as a person coming out [on to the music scene]. I never felt that same sense of competition from men." Having found myself prepared to battle tooth and nail to defend Joni these past weeks, these kinds of quotes about her difficult relationships with women and, of course, her notorious lack of relationship to feminism, are the points at which I have always felt my most disappointed. Having talked about the amount of projection and transference Joni has to contend with, I wonder if these are Joni's projections? Maybe, maybe not, but it is sad that she has felt so unsupported and, in fact, in competition with other women. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 11:10:28 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow In my view, Joni made up her mind early on that she stood alone; it became her shield and her weapon throughout her life. This gave her a pre-made reason why she could not be understood by her peers or by critics, with the men baffled by the originality, and the women jealous of her skill and attractiveness. She drew strength and ultimately loneliness from this self-view and it stands strong as ever today. It may have felt this way to her, but in reality many people get her skill and brilliance, male and female, and she is not alone in having beauty and brains in this very large world. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:27:22 +0000 (UTC) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Yeah, I guess I knew what you meant, but I don't know the answer. I did find one article that suggests some kind of animosity, but it could all be in jest as well. This is from 2008. It quotes an earlier article with Joni apparently saying,'Baez "would have broken my leg" *if the pair had fallen out while sharing a stage.'* (The * were added by me.) And, quoting Joni: "I always thought the women of song don't get along, and I don't know why that is. I had a hard time with Laura Nyro also, and Joan Baez would have broken my leg if she could, or at least that's the way it felt as a person coming out [on to the music scene]. I never felt that same sense of competition from men." She added: "[Joplin] was very competitive with me, very insecure. She was the queen of rock'n'roll one year and then Rolling Stone made me the queen of rock'n'roll and she hated me after that." Maybe there's more, but this doesn't sound like people hating one another, as much as insecurity leading to envy/jealousy. Joni has also expressed admiration for Laura Nyro. When she says she "had a hard time with Laura," I read that not so much as actually giving each other a hard time but feeling insecure because, in a world dominated by male rock stars, there was a feeling that only a select few women could enter that club. You know how it is when you have a friend or relative whom you love dearly and yet you can still feel jealous of them sometimes for having something you don't have. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/make-war-not-peace-mitchell-attacks-joan-break-your-legs-baez-770878.html Make war, not peace: ... Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez may have strummed their way through the golden age of the peaceniks, p... View on www.independen... Preview by Yahoo ________________________________ From: Marion Leffler To: Mark Scott Cc: Catherine McKay ; jmdl Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Thanks Catherine and Mark for your responses. What I was really wondering was whether the said animosity between Joan B and Joni was actually a fact since on the same album Joan B recorded two Joni-related songs, one about her and one together with her. I totally agree with you that it does not matter who a song is about as long as it has some general emotion or experience that can be shared. Sorry for not having made myself quite clear. Hoping everybody is having a happy weekend, Marion 2015-04-12 2:18 GMT+02:00 Mark Scott : > I may have heard Jackson's version of the song once or twice. It's the > Joan Baez version that I also am familiar with. I think if Joan liked the > song, it wouldn't matter to her who it was about or if it was about anybody > in particular. The words take on whatever meaning you take away from them. > I'm not a Jackson Browne fan but the song has some nice turns of phrase and > I think most people who look back on certain relationships in their lives > can relate to it. I also think I find more in it now than when I was a > callow young man of 20 or so. 'Though the future's there for anyone to > change, still you know it seems it would be easier sometimes to change the > past'. > > Mark in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 4:36 AM > To: Marion Leffler ; jmdl > Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow > > > Hello, Marion! > I had that same Joan Baez album, which is where I first heard the song > "Fountain of Sorrow." I'm guessing that Joan B just liked the song without > knowing who it was about or even if it was about a particular person. I'm > quite sure Jackson Browne didn't reveal who it was about for a long time. > Sometimes you just like a song for what it says to you without knowing if > it's based in actual history or just resonates with you somehow. > From: Marion Leffler > To: jmdl > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 3:30 AM > Subject: Fountain of sorrow > > > I guess you all are aware of the cover Joan Baez did on her album Diamonds > and Rust. If this song is about Joni, how come JB covered it? As I recall > Joni and Joan are supposed to be anything but friends, according to this > list. On the other hand, they did Dida together, very beautifully too. So I > am left wondering... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 11:20:59 -0500 From: Laura O Subject: Daisy & Joni's Hospital Stay Hi Sue, Thanks for that information from your RN sister. We'll just have to wait and see...... Oh, I agree with you totally about Daisy and Joni's resemblance. If there was any doubt about Kilauren.....just had to look at Daisy and no DNA test needed......and Marlin looks so much like Brad! Aren't genes interesting!! Laura On 4/13/2015 10:29 AM, Susan E. McNamara wrote: > Hi Laura, > > My sister is a Joni fan and a nurse and she also had theories about what's going on with Joni based on the news reports. She thought that maybe Joni passed out because of a heart arrhythmia and the surgical procedure may have been a pacemaker. Not sure if that makes sense but she's been a nurse for 35 years, and without any other reports (tomorrow it will be two weeks!) I think it sounds plausible. > > I've seen some of Daisy's Youtube videos. She likes fashion and makeup and Justin Beiber just like most teens her age!! She's adorable and a dead ringer for Joni, I think. :-) > > Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Laura O. > Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 10:28 AM > To: joni@smoe.org; Susan E. McNamara > Subject: Daisy & Joni's Hospital Stay > > I'm so glad you re-posted this because if Kakki had posted this on the JMDL I missed it. And altho I can see alot on facebook NOT being a member, I couldn't access the link because of that reason. > > I've read some of Daisy's responses, sometimes heated & defensive, on YouTube pages so I know she's out there (whether people choose to believe she's Joni's grandchild or not) I was excited to hear what she had to say. > > Having worked in a hospital, altho not a nurse, but behind the scene of those hard-working professionals an older person can be put in the Intensive Care unit for even a small procedure that a younger person may go home that same day. A 71 year old woman, and taking into consideration present AND PAST health issues, would want to be given > 24/7 observation which is done in ICU. Babies and senior citizens can get dehydrated and not recover, and be gone just-like-that! Also, being she smokes.... not being able to smoke for a given period of time due to an immediate health issue could cause her body to go thru serious withdrawels and that would also have to be dealt with and how that affects her heart and other organs and extending a hospital stay. > ANY procedure where one has to go under anesthesia is ALWAYS risky (look at the forms you need to sign). So if it's serious or minor I'm glad she's being taken care of and watched. Altho, at this point she could have been in and out of instensive care within 24 hours and is being taken care of in a private room until the time the doctors feel it's safe she can go home. It's all speculation. But the sooner she can safely go home the better, because one can also pick-up deadly infections (Staff) in a hospital. Who was it that reminded us Joni doesn't like hospitals/doctors here? yeah good reminder, I had forgotten. But, hopefully, being surrounded by her friends/family, she's feeling the love and getting some well-deserved rest! > > But it's good to know that Daisy says she's progressing well. The fact she says it was a 'miracle' makes me believe something serious took place, or something serious somehow past over her and the doc's are making sure she's stable and were looking for something 'hidden'. > > There is a power to prayer, so the more of us praying for her, the better. I'm sure that some of those in her tight group of friends she has are doing so as well, if they are so inclined to pray. > > In the pictures of her appearances thru the years, I've observed many of her 'close friends' right next to her or in other photos of the events...so you know they are there with her even if they don't make her photo shots. > > This is a good article written by her make-up artist and close friend (altho now, sadly, deceased) Paul Starr. But the feeling from the writing is that Joni has quite the social life (hidden from the > public) and likes the sense of 'community' where she lives. Even when seen, alone, in public eating in restaurants (as Kakki can confirm), she's not in a dark back corner with management keeping her hidden, but sitting in the open with her little dog, which of course grabs attention and invites conversation, and wouldn't one say Joni is an observer, people watcher? Perhaps she finds this relaxing as well as stimulating. > > I take comfort in knowing she's surrounded by trusted friends, younger ones and old ones. I think this is a great little interview, I not only get a peek into her make-up bag (I like knowing what skin care cream she uses HAHA) but I got a real sense of her private life and friendships. She may be reclusive from the press but she's no "I vant to be alone" Greta Garbo! I believe she needs and seeks stimulation from discussions and visiting with friends (and strangers) keeps her inspired. > > Read to the bottom... > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=1461&from=search > > Check out the article just posted in the LIBRARY. Reading it and all the links is an education about Morgellons. I think even if Joni's hospital stay has nothing to do with Morgellons she may be glad to hear it's stirring up interest and, even for a little while, would rather people become aware of it, discuss it and others speak out that they also have it, then what may truly be the cause of her hospitalization. http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2954 > > Laura > **************************************** > Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:03:44 +0000 > From: "Susan E. McNamara" > Subject: RE: Missing Joni > > Mary, > > It came to our attention earlier in the day, through our good friend Kakki, that Daisy, Joni's granddaughter, responded to a Facebook post on the Joni Mitchell FB page telling folks the following: > > Daisy Claire Gibb - for all that are worried, joni is recovering very well and is being considered a "miracle" i am a close relative of hers, and we are happy to say she is progressing well. > 18 hrs * Unlike * 25 > > Daisy Claire Gibb illness has nothing to do with smoking > 19 hrs * Unlike * 6 > > Daisy Claire Gibb i'm sure when she's out her statement will be said, at this time i can't tell anyone what she has. > 19 hrs * Like * 6 > > Here's a link to the page, but you may not be able to see it if you are not a member of this FB group: > http://tinyurl.com/o8pg33v ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 17:10:32 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Fountain of sorrow Yes, I've been troubled by this aspect of Joni's career before, too, but in my own life I've found that just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that the female subsets of the different communities I socialized or worked in fit for me. As she moved out of folk and into the west coast rock scene it seemed she found more women friends, the Ladies of the Canyon, who were more supportive of her because they were not in competition with her. Is there any female role model who Joni looked up to, a mentor in her life? I can't think of one, but I can think of several friends who she visits with and traveled with. Mama Cass, Estrella, later Chaka Khan, although I'm not sure how close she was personally with these women. She was an only child and had no sisters so it would be interesting to find out who she would consider a close sister-like figure in her life. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Anita Gabrielle Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 12:44 PM To: Catherine McKay Cc: Marion Leffler; Mark Scott; jmdl Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Catherine wrote: > > And, quoting Joni: > > "I always thought the women of song don't get along, and I don't know why that is. I had a hard time with Laura Nyro also, and Joan Baez would have broken my leg if she could, or at least that's the way it felt as a person coming out [on to the music scene]. I never felt that same sense of competition from men." Having found myself prepared to battle tooth and nail to defend Joni these past weeks, these kinds of quotes about her difficult relationships with women and, of course, her notorious lack of relationship to feminism, are the points at which I have always felt my most disappointed. Having talked about the amount of projection and transference Joni has to contend with, I wonder if these are Joni's projections? Maybe, maybe not, but it is sad that she has felt so unsupported and, in fact, in competition with other women. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 17:34:18 +0000 (UTC) From: Clint Norwood Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow I don't know if I am in the complete minority and I don't know if it matters at all but I both understand her attitude about life, feminism (totally get her understanding of the label) and other things. I am not sure about her illnesses, what you call them or if they have merit but I know that many of my heroes (Carlin, Twain etc.) have gone out a little angry. Would some of you be more happy if Joni was doing Visa ads telling you how much you could save on buyback rewards or if she was doing duets with Puff Daddy? No, for me Joni's attitude is understandable in a sea of cultural wa$te. I like that she cares about whales but doesn't want to be grouped in with poorly though-out social memes. And despite the fact that we care for her and her art, she has no responsibility to us to keep herself politically pure, nor does she owe anything to us. I think that I like her point of view (many call it bitterness) in which she feels she can push back against this dumb culture endlessly. I even understand her desire to smoke cigarettes. It is her rebellion. She is a human. We (humans) are not perfect but I like her. I understand when she doesn't want to get sisterly and be reduced to a political idea. I think you guys should be happy we have a "hero" that truly does put up the middle finger when it is needed. - -Clint On Monday, April 13, 2015 11:48 AM, Anita Gabrielle wrote: Catherine wrote: > > And, quoting Joni: > > "I always thought the women of song don't get along, and I don't know why that is. I had a hard time with Laura Nyro also, and Joan Baez would have broken my leg if she could, or at least that's the way it felt as a person coming out [on to the music scene]. I never felt that same sense of competition from men." Having found myself prepared to battle tooth and nail to defend Joni these past weeks, these kinds of quotes about her difficult relationships with women and, of course, her notorious lack of relationship to feminism, are the points at whichB I have always felt my most disappointed. Having talked about the amount of projection and transference Joni has to contend with, I wonder if these are Joni's projections? Maybe, maybe not, but it is sad that she has felt so unsupported and, in fact, in competition with other women. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:29:15 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Daisy & Joni's Hospital Stay Hi Laura, My sister is a Joni fan and a nurse and she also had theories about what's going on with Joni based on the news reports. She thought that maybe Joni passed out because of a heart arrhythmia and the surgical procedure may have been a pacemaker. Not sure if that makes sense but she's been a nurse for 35 years, and without any other reports (tomorrow it will be two weeks!) I think it sounds plausible. I've seen some of Daisy's Youtube videos. She likes fashion and makeup and Justin Beiber just like most teens her age!! She's adorable and a dead ringer for Joni, I think. :-) Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Laura O. Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 10:28 AM To: joni@smoe.org; Susan E. McNamara Subject: Daisy & Joni's Hospital Stay I'm so glad you re-posted this because if Kakki had posted this on the JMDL I missed it. And altho I can see alot on facebook NOT being a member, I couldn't access the link because of that reason. I've read some of Daisy's responses, sometimes heated & defensive, on YouTube pages so I know she's out there (whether people choose to believe she's Joni's grandchild or not) I was excited to hear what she had to say. Having worked in a hospital, altho not a nurse, but behind the scene of those hard-working professionals an older person can be put in the Intensive Care unit for even a small procedure that a younger person may go home that same day. A 71 year old woman, and taking into consideration present AND PAST health issues, would want to be given 24/7 observation which is done in ICU. Babies and senior citizens can get dehydrated and not recover, and be gone just-like-that! Also, being she smokes.... not being able to smoke for a given period of time due to an immediate health issue could cause her body to go thru serious withdrawels and that would also have to be dealt with and how that affects her heart and other organs and extending a hospital stay. ANY procedure where one has to go under anesthesia is ALWAYS risky (look at the forms you need to sign). So if it's serious or minor I'm glad she's being taken care of and watched. Altho, at this point she could have been in and out of instensive care within 24 hours and is being taken care of in a private room until the time the doctors feel it's safe she can go home. It's all speculation. But the sooner she can safely go home the better, because one can also pick-up deadly infections (Staff) in a hospital. Who was it that reminded us Joni doesn't like hospitals/doctors here? yeah good reminder, I had forgotten. But, hopefully, being surrounded by her friends/family, she's feeling the love and getting some well-deserved rest! But it's good to know that Daisy says she's progressing well. The fact she says it was a 'miracle' makes me believe something serious took place, or something serious somehow past over her and the doc's are making sure she's stable and were looking for something 'hidden'. There is a power to prayer, so the more of us praying for her, the better. I'm sure that some of those in her tight group of friends she has are doing so as well, if they are so inclined to pray. In the pictures of her appearances thru the years, I've observed many of her 'close friends' right next to her or in other photos of the events...so you know they are there with her even if they don't make her photo shots. This is a good article written by her make-up artist and close friend (altho now, sadly, deceased) Paul Starr. But the feeling from the writing is that Joni has quite the social life (hidden from the public) and likes the sense of 'community' where she lives. Even when seen, alone, in public eating in restaurants (as Kakki can confirm), she's not in a dark back corner with management keeping her hidden, but sitting in the open with her little dog, which of course grabs attention and invites conversation, and wouldn't one say Joni is an observer, people watcher? Perhaps she finds this relaxing as well as stimulating. I take comfort in knowing she's surrounded by trusted friends, younger ones and old ones. I think this is a great little interview, I not only get a peek into her make-up bag (I like knowing what skin care cream she uses HAHA) but I got a real sense of her private life and friendships. She may be reclusive from the press but she's no "I vant to be alone" Greta Garbo! I believe she needs and seeks stimulation from discussions and visiting with friends (and strangers) keeps her inspired. Read to the bottom... http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=1461&from=search Check out the article just posted in the LIBRARY. Reading it and all the links is an education about Morgellons. I think even if Joni's hospital stay has nothing to do with Morgellons she may be glad to hear it's stirring up interest and, even for a little while, would rather people become aware of it, discuss it and others speak out that they also have it, then what may truly be the cause of her hospitalization. http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2954 Laura **************************************** Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:03:44 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Missing Joni Mary, It came to our attention earlier in the day, through our good friend Kakki, that Daisy, Joni's granddaughter, responded to a Facebook post on the Joni Mitchell FB page telling folks the following: Daisy Claire Gibb - for all that are worried, joni is recovering very well and is being considered a "miracle" i am a close relative of hers, and we are happy to say she is progressing well. 18 hrs * Unlike * 25 Daisy Claire Gibb illness has nothing to do with smoking 19 hrs * Unlike * 6 Daisy Claire Gibb i'm sure when she's out her statement will be said, at this time i can't tell anyone what she has. 19 hrs * Like * 6 Here's a link to the page, but you may not be able to see it if you are not a member of this FB group: http://tinyurl.com/o8pg33v ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 19:44:10 +0100 From: Anita Gabrielle Subject: Re: Fountain of sorrow Dave, that's a really interesting idea of the duality of both shield and weapon alongside the standing alone. What's so interesting is, of course, that her music so resonates with all our aloneness and loneliness, Anita > On 13 Apr 2015, at 19:10, Dave Blackburn wrote: > > In my view, Joni made up her mind early on that she stood alone; it became her shield and her weapon throughout her life. This gave her a pre-made reason why she could not be understood by her peers or by critics, with the men baffled by the originality, and the women jealous of her skill and attractiveness. She drew strength and ultimately loneliness from this self-view and it stands strong as ever today. It may have felt this way to her, but in reality many people get her skill and brilliance, male and female, and she is not alone in having beauty and brains in this very large world. > > Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 15:33:11 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: Re: SFJAZZ Gala 2015 To Honor Joni Mitchell LOL! I try to manifest my Cornell education from time to time! :-) On 4/12/15, 11:29 AM, "Dave Blackburn" wrote: >Perq spelled correctly! Love it, Sue! > > >> On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Susan E. McNamara wrote: >> >> Laurie Antonioli is performing as well as some other amazing people. It >> was said that Boz Scaggs is a late entry. The tickets are so high >>because >> this is not a concert like the tribute in Toronto in 2013, it9s a >> fundraising gala for SFJazz. A lot of cultural organizations have >>events >> like this to raise money for their organizations and the target audience >> is usually very wealthy cultural donors. The fact that it is still >>being >> advertised gives me hope that Joni may still show. Since this is a >> fundraising event, and the highest priced tickets have the perq of 3have >> dinner with Joni2 I hope that they reschedule if Joni is not well enough >> to attend. Not sure if that is possible with an event of this size. In >> hindsight, knowing what I know about how magnificent the event at Massey >> Hall was, I would shell out $1,000 and eat peanut butter sandwiches for >> the next year to be at this event. I9m still considering it!!! :-) >> >> Love Sue ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #586 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe