From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #277 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, August 19 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 277 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- =?UTF-8?Q?Joni_in_=E2=80=98Saturday_Night_Live=E2=80=99_with_Jo nah_Hill?= [Betsy Blue ] [none] ["johncalimee@frontier.com" ] Best vocal [jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com] Re: Best vocal [Jack Merkel ] A little hint about posts on the JMDL [Lori Renee Fye ] Re: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations [Bob Muller ] Re: Joni's best albums vocally [Jim Mcmeans ] Talking about Joni's voice ... ["Susan E. McNamara" ] Re: Best vocal [Jack Merkel ] Re: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations [Dave Blackburn Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Joni_in_=E2=80=98Saturday_Night_Live=E2=80=99_with_Jo nah_Hill?= I just saw the Jonah Hill episode of Saturday Night Live from January, in which Cecily Strong sang part of Circle Game in a terrible skit. The link is to an episode review, but all you need to know is that "the pointless lampooning of a classic Joni Mitchell song was pure sacrilege!" http://tvline.com/2014/01/26/jonah-hill-host-saturday-night-live-snl-recap-video/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:13:23 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Best vocal Anita, that was a good weepfest wasnt it? I always want sound to make you feel something, and listening on a good system makes that much more likely. The same record played on a laptops internal speakers gives you about 10% of that feeling. On a related note, I was just introduced to a local audiophile, Kip Peterson, and he had me come over and do some listening on his front door size ribbon speakers with the discrete left and right monoblock power amps and cables (interconnects) that cost a months wages. In addition to LPs and CDs he also has a collection of master tapes. Now, these are reel to reel tapes that were sent off to foreign countries for LP pressing in those regions and they are direct transfers of the mastered albums. When those foreign plants closed down they had vaults of tapes to be disposed of and someone realized they could be sold to collectors. Kip has Blue and Court and Spark among other goodies like Dark Side of the Moon. He played me Blue. Joni was practically five feet in front of me strumming her dulcimer, as vivid as if she were in fact present. Sound equals feeling, or it ought to, and this was a profound feeling. I am refraining from chiming in on the best vocal thread because what you hear something on plays a HUGE part in how you respond to it. Blue is not even in my top five Joni albums but when I heard All I Want coming at me from half inch analog tape exactly as it left the mastering plant (Bernie Grundman) it was jaw dropping. On an unrelated note, Mutts of the Planet performing Hejira live is about to be released on CD in the next few weeks. Ill be giving out more info soon, and Youtubes of the June 1st Carlsbad show where it was recorded will be up shortly. I have spent two months mixing this, and it is a corker, as we say in the UK. love Dave On Aug 18, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Anita Gabrielle wrote: > It's June 2nd 2014: > At Dave and Robin's House near Fallbrook. > Dave shares his sound system with > Half a dozen or so of us Joni Listers and Friends. > The 2000 version Vince Mendoza version of 'A Case Of You' rolls from the speakers. It is as though I have never heard it before. > > A deep, cracked Joni voice bleeds every word. > > I begin to sob. And I am not alone. > Anita > >> On 18 Aug 2014, at 21:53, jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com wrote: >> >> Truly, anything from LOTC through WTRF. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:46:14 -0700 From: "johncalimee@frontier.com" Subject: [none] She was singing? As a lone wolf on a deserted island....For most of her career I never thought of her work as 'song.' Nor singing really. So I had the most peculiar reaction to a Joni interview where I first heard her mention how many 'songs' she had written to that point in her career. -Songs? The thing that strikes me as her most elegant talent is her ability to construct melodies that seem spoken. Song speak if I can phrase it that way. It is a talent shared with Lambert, Hendricks and Ross. In my heart 'other' people sang. But Joni spoke to me with melodic poetry. I never thought of it as singing. It is a quality that did not demand the kind of vocal theatrics of other music. It's a more limited use of the vocal instrument. Joni has eluded to this as well. With so many words crammed into the bar, there is limited room for using the voice as found in so much of the broader spectrum of popular music. -Which sat fine with me. I guess it is a matter of taste. The intellectual side of might may find acceptance and praise for the comments made so far. But my own personal tastes are such that much of what impresses the rest of you falls deaf on my ears. I am not a fan of clear voices... that perfect pitch... Diva-esque range... to me it's all theatrics. Shallow and with no meat. I remember Richard trying to persuade me with a host of classic singers, Jazz and Classical alike. And my only reaction was, "when she can write me the next 'Paprika Plains' get back to me. It is lost on me. The quality I love in her voice shines best in Travelogue. It is the music I play most often. And as I've mentioned I lean very heavily to late Joni for her voice. It's lonely being out here in the middle of the Pacific....... The only way I can describe it is to shift Arts, metaphors, whatever. If I were going to have someone read me a great piece of literature, the 'awk' I would chose would not be some young person with a polished voice. I'd rather have a late Richard Burton, an elderly Morgan Freeman, or the weathered voice of Laurence Olivier recite. When Leonard Cohen comes in on 'The Jungle Line' .....oh, how I sit up and take notice!!! There's a depth there. Maybe it's just my aging ears falling in love with lower registers I neglected to see in my youth. The husk in her voice is wrapped and engaged with new twists of phrasing... there's still a sweetness there of intonation that makes the weakened projection and lowered scale just the perfect delicate mix. There are more flavors in the mix. -It probably shines best in the vocals of BSN the late version. But I get to hear her carry that on ...and on ...and on with Travelogue. She plays with a lot of influences here. That drop on "looooot a HELP" in God Must be..... I dig that. So what if I think she's got her eye on Diana Krall when she does it? It works for me. There's such a rich lilt to Just Like this Train.... As much as I like this thread and look forward to hearing varying positions, there's a part of me where the hairs are up on the back of my neck, looking down and surveying the forest from afar.... Joni has come to that 'Madonna/whore' part of her career where perhaps there's no hope of gain. People may 'want' new music from her, only to decry how much she's 'lost it' in the same breath. I'd like to have her rasp at me. Weakened voice and all.... any new poetry her heart and vision leads her to. My choice: Travelogue. I've yet to hear anyone 'clear voiced' write me a collection comparable to that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:53:56 -0400 From: jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: Best vocal Truly, anything from LOTC through WTRF. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 21:01:10 -0500 From: Jack Merkel Subject: Re: Best vocal I totally agree Dave. What a treat it must have been to hear those tapes. Can't wait for new CD. Jack Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 18, 2014, at 6:13 PM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > > Anita, that was a good weepfest wasnt it? I always want sound to make you feel something, and listening on a good system makes that much more likely. The same record played on a laptops internal speakers gives you about 10% of that feeling. > > On a related note, I was just introduced to a local audiophile, Kip Peterson, and he had me come over and do some listening on his front door size ribbon speakers with the discrete left and right monoblock power amps and cables (interconnects) that cost a months wages. In addition to LPs and CDs he also has a collection of master tapes. Now, these are reel to reel tapes that were sent off to foreign countries for LP pressing in those regions and they are direct transfers of the mastered albums. When those foreign plants closed down they had vaults of tapes to be disposed of and someone realized they could be sold to collectors. Kip has Blue and Court and Spark among other goodies like Dark Side of the Moon. He played me Blue. Joni was practically five feet in front of me strumming her dulcimer, as vivid as if she were in fact present. Sound equals feeling, or it ought to, and this was a profound feeling. I am refraining from chiming in on the best vocal thread because what y! > ou hear something on plays a HUGE part in how you respond to it. Blue is not even in my top five Joni albums but when I heard All I Want coming at me from half inch analog tape exactly as it left the mastering plant (Bernie Grundman) it was jaw dropping. > > On an unrelated note, Mutts of the Planet performing Hejira live is about to be released on CD in the next few weeks. Ill be giving out more info soon, and Youtubes of the June 1st Carlsbad show where it was recorded will be up shortly. I have spent two months mixing this, and it is a corker, as we say in the UK. > > love > Dave > > > >> On Aug 18, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Anita Gabrielle wrote: >> >> It's June 2nd 2014: >> At Dave and Robin's House near Fallbrook. >> Dave shares his sound system with >> Half a dozen or so of us Joni Listers and Friends. >> The 2000 version Vince Mendoza version of 'A Case Of You' rolls from the speakers. It is as though I have never heard it before. >> >> A deep, cracked Joni voice bleeds every word. >> >> I begin to sob. And I am not alone. >> Anita >> >>> On 18 Aug 2014, at 21:53, jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com wrote: >>> >>> Truly, anything from LOTC through WTRF. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 16:33:52 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: A little hint about posts on the JMDL I'm not marking this N*JC on purpose because I'd like for everyone to see it. When replying to a digest post, if you can edit the subject to either reference the original subject or create an entirely new subject it will help a lot in terms of getting your post noticed. I tend to skip over a lot of the posts that begin with "Re: JMDL Digest V2014 # ..." and if I do it then I'm pretty sure that others do the same thing. I know a lot of people are posting from their mobile devices and it may be difficult to edit a subject. In that case I'd suggest just creating a brand new post with an appropriate subject. Happy posting! Lori Caldwell, Idaho ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 17:30:10 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Joni's best albums vocally > Suppose she'll meet me some day? My initial thought is, "You dream flat tires," but I suppose anything is possible. :-) I don't think it's all that easy for people Joni doesn't know to find her. I can only imagine one or two people on this list with the means to contact Joni personally, and my bet is that they respect Joni's privacy a lot and help to guard it for her. Lori Caldwell, Idaho ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:18:21 -0700 From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations >we hoped and assumed that it would end up being done with a small jazz combo. Perhaps Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Larry Klein, Brian Blade and unspecified others. Alas, it was not to be.< And I agree 100% (and commented on that at the time). To hear her with a jazz trio or quartet or quintet would have been sublime and superior to what we got. As you say, it was not to be, so I have to evaluate what is and not what could have been. Given what we have, The orchestration, heavy-handed though it may be, has more interesting things going for it than Joni's vocals. Bob NP: Pink Floyd, "Animals" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:52:12 -0400 From: Bob Muller Subject: Fwd: Your Amazon.com order of "Joni Mitchell: In Her Own..." has shipped! Whop Hoo! Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: "Amazon.com" > Date: August 18, 2014 at 10:49:56 AM EDT > To: "ROBERT A. MULLER" > Subject: Your Amazon.com order of "Joni Mitchell: In Her Own..." has shipped! > Reply-To: "ship-confirm@amazon.com" > > > > Your Orders | Your Account | Amazon.com > Shipping Confirmation > Order #105-6294155-7368225 > Hello ROBERT A. MULLER, > Thank you for shopping with us. We thought you'd like to know that we shipped your item, and that this completes your order. Your order is on its way, and can no longer be changed. If you need to return an item from this shipment or manage other orders, please visit Your Orders on Amazon.com. > > Your estimated delivery date is: > Tuesday, August 19, 2014 > > Your order was sent to: > Bob Muller > 309 W Prentiss Ave > Greenville, SC 29605-4035 > United States > > Depending on the ship speed you chose, it may take 24 hours for tracking information to be available in your account. > > Shipment Details > > Joni Mitchell: In Her Own Words > Sold by Amazon.com LLC > $21.18 > > Item Subtotal: $21.18 > Shipping & Handling: $0.00 > Settlement Credit: -$1.46 > Total Before Tax: $19.72 > Shipment Total: $19.72 > Paid by Gift Certificate: $19.72 > Returns are easy. Visit our Online Return Center. > If you need further assistance with your order, please visit Customer Service. > > We hope to see you again soon! > Amazon.com > > > > Unless otherwise noted, items sold by Amazon.com LLC are subject to sales tax in select states in accordance with the applicable laws of that state. If your order contains one or more items from a seller other than Amazon.com LLC, it may be subject to state and local sales tax, depending upon the sellers business policies and the location of their operations. Learn more about tax and seller information. > > Please see important information regarding sales tax you may owe in your State. > > This email was sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming email. Please do not reply to this message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:18:21 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re: Joni's best album vocally Mostly lurking these days due to work loadwill be back soon I hopeCC What Bob said, although I think that Both Sides Now should get a special mention: Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 06:19:32 -0700 From: Bob Muller Subject: Joni's best album - vocally. what do you think is Joni's best albums vocally? > From a technical singing perspective, I vote for Mingus. From an emoting perspective, I would say Blue. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 18:13:24 -0500 From: Jim Mcmeans Subject: Re: Joni's best albums vocally I can see that. I love blue pools in squinting sun. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 17, 2014, at 5:59 PM, "David J. Phillips" wrote: > > Yes, Hissing. Power, ideals, and beauty not yet fading. > djp > > >> On 17/08/14 18:2052, Lori Renee Fye wrote: >> Jim McM asked: >> >>> This is a tough one, but....what do you think is Joni's best albums >>> vocally? Where her voice just penetrates your soul (the most). Yes, >>> I know, stupid question, but I lean toward "for the roses". >> >> I agree with Catherine: It's not a stupid question at all. >> >> I think the album that blows me away most in a vocal sense is "The Hissing >> of Summer Lawns." Joni's voice on a few of the songs on that album just >> cut my heart to its core, and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. >> >> Lori, >> whose all-time favorite album by anyone ever remains "Hejira," >> on a sunny Sunday in Caldwell, Idaho ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 21:25:23 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: Talking about Joni's voice ... What about her background vocals? I think except for Chaka Khan on DJRD, she never used a female background voice other than her own, and she always used that voice more like a chorus of winds or violins or cars screeching ... Sometimes I just listen to the background vocals and try to imitate them instead of the lead. It's hard. Car On A Hill, Song for Sharon, Hissing of Summer Lawns ... the way she layers the vocals is really amazing to me ... Come In From the Cold, Dog Eat Dog, etc etc Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 20:57:59 -0500 From: Jack Merkel Subject: Re: Best vocal I love this! I'm blessed with a pretty amazing sound system myself. If anyone in the Chicago area is ever up for a Joni listening party, just let me know! Jack Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 18, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Anita Gabrielle wrote: > > It's June 2nd 2014: > At Dave and Robin's House near Fallbrook. > Dave shares his sound system with > Half a dozen or so of us Joni Listers and Friends. > The 2000 version Vince Mendoza version of 'A Case Of You' rolls from the speakers. It is as though I have never heard it before. > > A deep, cracked Joni voice bleeds every word. > > I begin to sob. And I am not alone. > Anita > >> On 18 Aug 2014, at 21:53, jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com wrote: >> >> Truly, anything from LOTC through WTRF. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 21:09:39 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Vince Mendoza's arrangements & orchestrations Let me say upfront that I consider Vince Mendoza the preeminent orchestrator working today, and one of the reasons is that he is modern while fully in command of past idioms. That is to say, his musical heritage is a set of very diverse influences that a schmaltzy string arranger behind a crooner would be unaware of. Some people hear strings and think Mantovani. Vince Mendoza, however, never stoops to corny writing or even reveals an identifiable Mendoza style. When the Yellowjackets had him orchestrate Greenhouse in 1991 he understood the modern classical jazz fusion they were after, when Bjork had him orchestrate Vespertine in 2001 he drew from her Icelandic choral tradition and her odd fusion of sampling electronica and lush musicals. In each case he grasped the mix of traditions the artist was drawing from and incorporated them in his writing, never imposing his own thing heavy handedly on top of theirs. On Both Sides Now and Travelogue Joni was paying homage to her parents' era, as she discusses in Painting with Words and Music, referencing Bing Crosbys Swing era in particular. The sweeping romance of 1940s American music was a big part of her young life, no doubt growing up on the remote Canadian prairie with exactly that on the radio. The small combo jazz that Simon describes himself and Wally anticipating was, however, from a different era, the mid to late 50s. By that time Joni was smitten with Rock and Roll (In France the Kiss on Main St.) For her to do a Chet Baker-style record would no doubt have been cool, but it would have been contrary to her experience. Besides, if one wants her to give us small jazz combo music she had already given us Mingus, a small ensemble jazz project par excellence, albeit using modern sounds of the day like the Rhodes piano and electric fretless bass. She had dabbled with orchestration on Court and Spark, Hissing, and Don Juans Reckless Daughter and in every case her music backed up by orchestra had been artistically triumphant, but by 1998 very few record labels would spring for real strings,and certainly not the LSO; Joni saw a way to deliver her swan song in magnificent luxurious grandeur, something entirely fitting her sense of panache. To my mind, Travelogue and BSN were not at all artistic overreach or a caving to cheap commercialism. In a way they were the natural culmination of everything she had ever reached for: romance, depth, exquisiteness, dimension, poignance. Oddly, in a tragic irony, those of us from the next generation came up with a stigma attached to large format music, feeling in our post-summer-of love-bones that acoustic and small was the honest way. I think this debate we have every so often on the list about these two albums reveals that this pre-disposition persists. In other words, the post-Woodstock generation might view an intimate acoustic record as a fitting farewell, whereas Joni, at nearly seventy one years old, felt like singing in front of the worlds top orchestra, arranged by the hippest arranger in the business, would be more her style, It has been reported that orchestra members, hearing her vocal in their headphones as they recorded, had tears streaming down their cheeks. Were talking union classical players who had played it all; that is a testament in itself. No, Vince Mendoza was the perfect call for this supposed final farewell, a closing of the loop from Jonis childhood influence to her present, and perhaps even a farewell to the mere existence of such expensive accompaniment for anyone. In closing, Simon remarks that Mendozas arrangements did not take Jonis tunings into account; Im afraid this makes no sense. The alternate tunings were a way to accomplish non-standard voicings on guitar using easy fingerings. Vince Mendoza, or any arranger for that matter, was not constrained by the guitarists fingerings at all and could easily hear and orchestrate her voicings. They were remarkable for a self-taught guitarist to have discovered but are not anything to stump an advanced jazz arranger. A Case of You from Travelogue is a perfect rendition of the dulcimer voicings that contained unisons and dissonances; Mendoza captured and honored them all. all for now, Dave On Aug 18, 2014, at 3:58 PM, simon@icu.com wrot > Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > >> I think that Both Sides Now should get a special mention >> >> The whole album or just the title track? Frankly I think that vocally most >> of BSN is so-so, and what makes it stand out are Vince Mendoza's >> arrangements and the orchestration. > > Bob, > > Interesting. To me the Vince Mendoza arrangements & orchestration > are the problem with the BOTH SIDES NOW album. > > When Wally and I first heard about Joni recording an album of standards, > we hoped and assumed that it would end up being done with a small jazz > combo. Perhaps Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Larry Klein, Brian Blade > and unspecified others. Alas, it was not to be. > > As for Vince Mendoza and TRAVELOGUE  How / Why would you write orchestrations > of Joni Mitchell songs and not base them on her Guitar Tunings? > > Ive often wondered what TRAVELOGUE would have sounded like if the arrangements > and orchestrations had been done by either Randy Newman or Van Dyke Parks. > > Now THAT! would have been interesting. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #277 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe