From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #197 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, June 8 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 197 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids [Laura O ] =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = [Betsy ] RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #825 [Mary ] Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow [Lori Renee Fye ] RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #818 [Mary ] Don't interrupt the Sorrow ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" ] You's [ingrid lochrenberg ] Anima and Marcie [ingrid lochrenberg ] Literal [ingrid lochrenberg ] RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #807 [Ingrid Lochrenberg ] Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow [Shari ] Re: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = ["] Joni mitchell Complete So Far - Night Ride Home chart [SusanBTaylorBand <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2014 08:24:38 -0500 From: Laura O Subject: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids Ingrid says: "When I look at Kilauren I don't see the spark that Joni has...particularly around here eyes. I think one could get a million blonde models who look like Joni (even if they don't look like a gypsy dancer)." Personally, and I know I'm in the minority, I don't see any obvious resemblance to Joni & Kilauren facially or singing voice....altho they do talk alike (listening to videos of Kilauren on JM.com) and both paint. Having no inside knowledge or seeing 'proof' as does Susan, I would be skeptical. I just don't see it. When I'm STRAINING to see a resemblance.....to me her face favors Brad. But each of Kilauren's kids resembling each of her HER parents is striking, to my eyes. I can see it immediately. They're like mini images of the two. Brad has that certain intense look about his eyes. Marlin has the same. Daisy, well, she just looks like a young Joni in the face and eyes and hair. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall and see if they have similar inherit mannerisms and/or tendencies. Marlin is in the hat & Brad is next to him (enlarge the photo on your screen) http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2677&from=search Brad (click on the photo to enlarge) http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2781&from=search Laura From:owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Ingrid Lochrenberg Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 10:06 AM To: Laura O;joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Joni' daughter & Look-A-Like Grandkids For sure they might seem to resemble their grandparents, but people see such different things in faces. I mean, Taylor Swift was said, here on JMDL, to 'look' like Joni. When I look at Kilauren I don't see the spark that Joni has...particularly around here eyes. I think one could get a million blonde models who look like Joni (even if they don't look like a gypsy dancer). My point was merely that she doesn't have the moon anywhere near Cancer...so I have also thought if Joni meant: "borne (not born) with the moon, in Cancer...since she married Brad in June and soon after had to give up her daughter. Just another thought. I find Joni's words quite revealing of stuff that never get discussed. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 08:05:23 -0700 From: Betsy Blue Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = Some excellent writing in this piece. I don't have a PhD, so I'll just say "I like the stuff abouts the birds." http://www.criticsatlarge.ca/2013/11/method-acting-joni-mitchells-blue-period.html?m=1 Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 09:23:19 -0700 From: Mary Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #825 Thank you, David & John & Susan for your earlier posts. Thank you for your cogent & lived in responses to Ingrid's queries. I don't buy the rape & violence angle at all, as Joni seems quite clear about standing her ground as a woman, in this song, with newfound respect for the power she sees rising in her. That "chain me with a snake to an Ethiopian wall" is more biblical imagery that Joni employs to mean original sin & that women aren't "good enough" in some men's eyes - namely the men/man in the song. I don't see it is as violence or rape in any form & it doesn't seem to me that Joni's "character" in the song is similarly traumatized. I am also not interested in sussing out the details when Kilauren was born or under what circumstances. The public details are well known & I accept that I don't need to know the personal particulars. I think if songs were to be taken too literally we'd miss the poetry and universal meaning expressed therein, especially Joni's because there is so much imagery in her work along with all the details. She gives us a lot of meat in those songs, so I believe over thinking them can get us away from the original intent. Still, interesting discussion. David, thanks for the interpretation of the petrified wood process lines.....I'd never thought of it in that way before. Makes a lot of sense. in the way it is sung in the song. In truth, I'd not really given the lines much thought except that the imagery was awesome so this long discussion finally brought something to me. Thanks. GREETINGS FROM THE TRIPLE M Down a gravel road, where the barb wire meets the sky. MARY M. MORRIS > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 23:14:32 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #825 > > > JMDL Digest Friday, June 6 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 825 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Don't Interrupt the Sorrow [David Marine ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 23:14:07 -0400 > From: David Marine > Subject: Re: Don't Interrupt the Sorrow > > I think it's clear that the Anima is rising in Joni (or the female character in the song). So to me this line means that his dismissal of her Anima power cuts her down from proud, tall timber to cold stone with just a "so what?". > > I know Jung uses Anima to describe the feminine archetype of the unconscious mind (the yin to the yang), but I think Joni is using it to describe the spirit rising. Given the religious imagery in the song, the part about "wash my guilt of Eden, wash and balance me" may be related to the prayer "Anima Christi": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_Christi > > Just my two cents. > > At least we cleared up long ago "your notches, liberation doll"! > > David > > On Jun 6, 2014, at 6:29 PM, JMDL Digest wrote: > > > > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 16:29:17 -0600 > > From: Lori Renee Fye > > Subject: Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow > > > > Here's my take on "petrified wood process": > > > > He says "Anima rising > > So what > > Petrified wood process > > Tall timber down to rock" > > > > It takes a VERY LONG time for wood to petrify. So "He" says, "So what?" to > > the "anima" concept that men will get in touch with their feminine side > > anytime soon, or that anything else will change anytime soon enough to > > matter, at least to him. He's fine with the status quo. > > > > Lori > > > > ------------------------------ > > ------- > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2014 #825 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 16:29:17 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow Here's my take on "petrified wood process": He says "Anima rising So what Petrified wood process Tall timber down to rock" It takes a VERY LONG time for wood to petrify. So "He" says, "So what?" to the "anima" concept that men will get in touch with their feminine side anytime soon, or that anything else will change anytime soon enough to matter, at least to him. He's fine with the status quo. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 11:27:56 -0700 From: Mary Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #818 Yes, Lori, exactly. GREETINGS FROM THE TRIPLE M Down a gravel road, where the barb wire meets the sky. MARY M. MORRIS > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 18:29:44 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #818 > > > JMDL Digest Friday, June 6 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 818 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow [Lori Renee Fye ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 16:29:17 -0600 > From: Lori Renee Fye > Subject: Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow > > Here's my take on "petrified wood process": > > He says "Anima rising > So what > Petrified wood process > Tall timber down to rock" > > It takes a VERY LONG time for wood to petrify. So "He" says, "So what?" to > the "anima" concept that men will get in touch with their feminine side > anytime soon, or that anything else will change anytime soon enough to > matter, at least to him. He's fine with the status quo. > > Lori > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2014 #818 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 19:53:08 +0100 (BST) From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: Don't interrupt the Sorrow Ingrid, In rough terms I see it as being about: Relationships and male and female roles, Sexism and feminism. Religion, Power over others, and desire for Freedom. The endless cycles of personal frustration without real progress or improvement, and the need to take personal responsibility, despite temptation, disappointment and personal weakness. Lyrics below John http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=105 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 13:49:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Clint Norwood Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #809 I think that this interpretations thing that you guys are doing is great. Please do more :) - -Clint Norwood On Friday, June 6, 2014 3:21 PM, JMDL Digest wrote: JMDL Digest Friday, June 6 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 809 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #807 ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #807 Ingrid, I wouldn't go so far as to say in effect date or domestic rape. If anything "he" is using social convention to control "her". If anything it is a dilemma faced by some women today; is it better to have a bad and possibly abusive boyfriend or not at all? Do women have to appear unchallenging to attract rich and successful men? I take anima rising to be female self-respect self-expression and strength, standing up for what they believe in rather than pregnancy, and I see the relationships themselves representing "death and birth" without evolution. I think that societal mores including marriage and stereotypical fashion roles "rebel loves a cause" are the targets? If read the petrification bit as alongside the more normal if not traditional marriage roles are head-headed logical man and expressive emotive women . This does then rather degenerate into Rich man with Trophy chattel women. Man makes the money to quote the J Brown song, and all the horrible results, (think professional sportsmen, celebrities). Financial Dependence "Bring that bottle kindly And I'll pad your purse" And finally a common Joni theme, being attracted to selfish unreliable men. Bad boys in black. John >----Original Message---- >From: low-tide@outlook.com >Date: 06/06/2014 19:31 >To: "joni@smoe.org" >Subj: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #807 > >Thanks John. What would you think of my suggestion that it describes being >raped and then being back in the pub setting....possibly falling pregnant >(anima rising, uprising in me tonight )...him saying "we walked on the moon, >be polite" and the other lines are about disillusionment -"the truth going up >in vapors"... and "God goes up the chimney"....(I thought she sang " the good >slaves LEFT the good book"?)...possibly the rape is a death, that leads to a >birth...there are many phrases I don't understand, for instance" petrified >wood process, tall timber down to rock)...then it ends of by saying , you need >a heart like Mary when your man gets weak.......after being raped, either >there is capitulating terror, and/or all love focusses on the child. > >I am slightly anxious to present such a way-out interpretation-no doubt it >will be unwelcome to some...I simply must and have to a degree learnt not to >be too affected by what others may think of me( I think Joni would approve >though). So here I present this interpretation,..... and I will just 'let the >wind carry me'. > > >> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 14:53:44 -0400 >> From: owner-joni-digest@smoe. org >> To: joni-digest@smoe.org >> Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #807 >> >> >> JMDL Digest Friday, June 6 2014 Volume 2014 : Number >807 >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >> -------- >> Don't interrupt the Sorrow ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" >> >> - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 19:53:08 +0100 (BST) >> From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" >> Subject: Don't interrupt the Sorrow >> >> Ingrid, >> >> In rough terms I see it as being about: >> >> Relationships and >> male and female roles, Sexism and feminism. >> >> Religion, Power over >> others, and desire for Freedom. >> >> The endless cycles of personal >> frustration without real progress or improvement, >> >> and the need to take >> personal responsibility, despite temptation, disappointment and >> personal weakness. >> >> Lyrics below >> >> John >> >> http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=105>> >> - - - ------------------------------ >> >> End of JMDL Digest V2014 #807 >> ***************************** >> >> ------- >> To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. >> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >> mailto: joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >> ------- - ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2014 #809 ***************************** - ------- To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 00:44:16 +0000 From: ingrid lochrenberg Subject: You's I think that in any one song, joni could be addressing more than one "you".....'Oh BUT YOU are in my blood you're my holy wine......" Brad might well have left her 3 monthgs pregnant in the fall of 1963 without having fathered the child, which i thought was conceived when she was still in art school in 1963. Kilauren would still be Kilauren no matter who her father actually was. I have tried to make sense of the timing/dates and have found it hard to find a coherent picture. Sent from my BlackBerry. wireless device ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 22:26:41 +0000 From: ingrid lochrenberg Subject: Anima and Marcie Those lines in Marcie "Marcie's faucet needs a plumber, marcie's sorrow needs a man" could refer to a transgender woman/ man.....and Anima suggest. A female with male bravado that ensues from a rape. Sortav a divine retaliation. She also speaks of "choosing a name she would answer to" and then names her child Kelly Dale which is quite androgynous...not that Kilauren seems remotely androgynous. Sent from my BlackBerry. wireless device ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 22:05:17 +0000 From: ingrid lochrenberg Subject: Literal Thanks also, John, for your thoughts. I sometimes think that one should take things literally and not figuatively. I see it rather as being raped by a STRANGER who has drunk too much and compounds it for instance by saying "I I have a mighty mighty thirst. And meeting him again and him admonishing her to ' be polite'....we walked on he moon. I think that with a literal intepretation this is quite horrifying and points to becoming pregnant with a child that would seek revengee. Those are my thoughts. I'm not sure about the 'Clandestine' word unless this is a serial rapist .I'm actually not sure about anything. Sent from my BlackBerry. wireless device ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 21:31:04 +0200 From: Ingrid Lochrenberg Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2014 #807 Thanks John. What would you think of my suggestion that it describes being raped and then being back in the pub setting....possibly falling pregnant (anima rising, uprising in me tonight )...him saying "we walked on the moon, be polite" and the other lines are about disillusionment -"the truth going up in vapors"... and "God goes up the chimney"....(I thought she sang " the good slaves LEFT the good book"?)...possibly the rape is a death, that leads to a birth...there are many phrases I don't understand, for instance" petrified wood process, tall timber down to rock)...then it ends of by saying , you need a heart like Mary when your man gets weak.......after being raped, either there is capitulating terror, and/or all love focusses on the child. I am slightly anxious to present such a way-out interpretation-no doubt it will be unwelcome to some...I simply must and have to a degree learnt not to be too affected by what others may think of me( I think Joni would approve though). So here I present this interpretation,..... and I will just 'let the wind carry me'. > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 14:53:44 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2014 #807 > > > JMDL Digest Friday, June 6 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 807 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Don't interrupt the Sorrow ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 19:53:08 +0100 (BST) > From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" > Subject: Don't interrupt the Sorrow > > Ingrid, > > In rough terms I see it as being about: > > Relationships and > male and female roles, Sexism and feminism. > > Religion, Power over > others, and desire for Freedom. > > The endless cycles of personal > frustration without real progress or improvement, > > and the need to take > personal responsibility, despite temptation, disappointment and > personal weakness. > > Lyrics below > > John > > http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=105 > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2014 #807 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list,sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 16:01:48 -0700 From: Shari Subject: Re: Don't interrupt the sorrow Exactly how I understood it as well. > On Jun 6, 2014, at 15:29, Lori Renee Fye wrote: > > Here's my take on "petrified wood process": > > He says "Anima rising > So what > Petrified wood process > Tall timber down to rock" > > It takes a VERY LONG time for wood to petrify. So "He" says, "So what?" to > the "anima" concept that men will get in touch with their feminine side > anytime soon, or that anything else will change anytime soon enough to > matter, at least to him. He's fine with the status quo. > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 10:47:55 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = Thanks, Betsy. I enjoyed this. Good read. Mark in Seattle - -----Original Message----- From: Betsy Blue Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 8:05 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Method_Acting=3A_Joni_Mitchell=E2=80=99s_Blue_Period? = Some excellent writing in this piece. I don't have a PhD, so I'll just say "I like the stuff abouts the birds." http://www.criticsatlarge.ca/2013/11/method-acting-joni-mitchells-blue-period.html?m=1 Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 20:33:14 -0500 From: SusanBTaylorBand Subject: Joni mitchell Complete So Far - Night Ride Home chart To any guitarist who has worked up (or is currently working up), Night Ride Home: I am having difficulty believing the chart is correct. Has anyone noticed that a few of the chord diagrams are wrong? Specifically: C(9) and the F. I am pretty certain my open tuning is correct. Susan Sent from my iPad ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #197 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe