From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #154 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, May 7 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 154 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Welcome Lisa! [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Just curious ... Who's still here? [Kate Johnson ] Re: CMIARS/Now Shine too [lawntreader@googlemail.com] Re: CMIARS [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: CMIARS/Now Shine too [Dave Blackburn ] Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #646 [Garret ] RE: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #153 ["Reimers, Gay" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 07:54:26 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Welcome Lisa! Lisa, welcome and don't be frightened - lots of messages of late but it will quiet down soon enough. Come Saturday I'll post a brand-new edition of Joni covers and things will go silent. Trust me. :-) In the meantime, give us some Joni-related tidbits about yourself...the first album you bought, favorite song(s), etc. Bob NP: Uncle Tupelo, "I Got Drunk" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 08:34:22 -0600 From: Kate Johnson Subject: Re: Just curious ... Who's still here? Whoops. Brain fart. Snowbirds are Canadians who go south for the winter. Snow GEESE, I meant. Kate b?b 1b.b?b 1b.b?b 1b. Stubblejumpin'Gal http://goldengrainfarm.blogspot.com On 2014-05-06, at 6:26 PM, Kate Johnson wrote: > the Americans are here to hunt snowbirds ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 05:29:54 -0700 (PDT) From: LC Stanley Subject: Best on the "Worst" Some of my favorite Joni songs are on these albums. B CMIARS: Tea Leaf Prophecy, The Beat of Black WingsB TTT: The Crazy Cries of Love DJRD: Talk to Me, Jericho, DJRD, The Silky Veils of Ardor Shine: This Place, If I Had a Heart, Strong and Wrong, Shine And you know there might be moreb& Before I joined this list, I only had a few Joni albums, mostly the more well known ones. My love and awe for Joni's music grew tremendously by the lurker albums. B Love, Laura B Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 23:20:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Re: CMIARS Paul asked: Seriously, I don't mean to make this too negative, but who can name a Joni album of new material that is worse than CMIARS? My response might make some wince. But, frankly, "Shine" didn't do anything for me. Add to that the fact that it was the last thing I gave Smurph (and it sort of defined that time), then I'd have to consider it my least favorite Joni album. lots of love,Anne - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 07:49:59 +0100 (BST) From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: Re: CMIARS All, Regarding Taming the Tiger, it could be hybridised with The TigerB who came for Tea. see attached http://us6.campaign-archive2.com/?u=323597127dd1adc1e3e1dcea2&id=b9bd360513&e =acb2e9e71e However, the young audience could find "Sex Kills" confusing. I knowB it is heretical,but I've never really liked most of DJRD. John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 14:28:16 +0100 From: lawntreader@googlemail.com Subject: Re: CMIARS/Now Shine too Shine is such a mixture. 'If' I find to be absolutely brilliant, Joni's guitar reminds me of her best, but there is a lot that a good producer would have dumped ( Dave?). I find the plinky keyboard sound particularly irritating. However, I find I have a soft spot in my heart for the album, probably because I never thought Joni would ever produce another series of songs. I like the movement from the 1968 romantic of STAS - the kings, the pirates - through to the keen observations of HoSL - onwards to the existential of 'Hejira ' - the middle age of WTRF - the ageing dilemmas like 'Facelift' - and, of course, everything in between and beyond. 'Shine' sounds like an older woman talking with her neighbours, loving the place she lives and blessing those 'seekers of mental health'. Not a brilliant album, perhaps, but I do experience a blessing when I hear it, Anita > On 7 May 2014, at 13:04, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > anything for me.> > > I hear you Anne. I was really excited like everyone else to hear that Joni > was coming out with new material, and there are a couple worthwhile songs > on it (Strong & Wrong, Night Of The Iguana, If) but the production is > hollow and cheesy and many of the songs are grasping at straws - and > almost embarrassing to re-record one of her more popular songs - why?. > Once again her ego got in the way of what could have been a better > product. And I can't BEAR to hear the title track, it's like a 7-minute > long droning WHINE. Andy Rooney put to music. > > It's a tossup between Shine and CMIARS for worst Joni record for me. TTT > on the other hand is a real gem in my opinion. > > Bob > > NP: The War On Drugs, "Disappearing" > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 08:04:29 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: CMIARS I hear you Anne. I was really excited like everyone else to hear that Joni was coming out with new material, and there are a couple worthwhile songs on it (Strong & Wrong, Night Of The Iguana, If) but the production is hollow and cheesy and many of the songs are grasping at straws - and almost embarrassing to re-record one of her more popular songs - why?. Once again her ego got in the way of what could have been a better product. And I can't BEAR to hear the title track, it's like a 7-minute long droning WHINE. Andy Rooney put to music. It's a tossup between Shine and CMIARS for worst Joni record for me. TTT on the other hand is a real gem in my opinion. Bob NP: The War On Drugs, "Disappearing" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 07:25:15 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: CMIARS/Now Shine too I wont add my feelings about the songs on Shine, but I would comment on the production itself and second Bobs description of it as hollow and cheesy. When it first came out I probably nagged about the same things, but I couldnt understand Jonis choice of real vs sampled instrumentation, lack of direction, not using the many top players at her disposal, etc. Furthermore, she told interviewers that it was her best work to date, which I realize IS a promotional tactic but, REALLY? I work with a lot of shoestring budget recording projects that have no choice but to use sampled instruments in place of the real thing, and if you research the stuff available now there are some very beautiful samples, but on Shine Joni just used a few stock factory presets from her keyboard, probably thrilled that you could have a saxophone sound at the push of a button, and most embarrassing of all, a guitar strumming loop at the push of another button (BYT), saving her from having to bust out an actual guitar and learn how to play the strum - this from a guitarist admired by Pat Metheny. She did have Brian Blade on it, and that was commendable considering she might have used a drum loop from the same keyboard instead, and she did have Bob Sheppard play saxophone, but didnt bother to have him replace the fake saxophone she had herself sequenced. Her voice was what it was by 2007 so I suppose its not fair to comment on it, but perhaps it is fair to ask why she felt like she could still make a record, especially given that she had already delivered her official swan song in 2000. I know some here dislike Travelogue and Both Sides Now, but they were magnificent productions with big budgets and classic values as records; quite the antithesis of Shine. Since this thread began with CMIARS, it is apt to mention the production of that one too. The eighties were a pretty bleak decade for records (although some gems came out, to be sure) but on the whole it was a decade of thin substance and massively over-applied varnish; Chalk Mark fits right in there. There may have been some good songs underneath the varnish, and we got to hear what DEDs Impossible Dreamer sounded like with just voice and piano, but the ear was led away from the melodies and lyrics by the gloss, the competing reverbs, the overly layered vocal parts (although I happen to dig My Secret Place). By the way, that bright gloss was the result of an eighties studio box called the Aphex Aural Exciter type C, which practically defined the decades music. Also, in 1982 the first Lexicon digital reverbs appeared and it suddenly became possible to design any imaginable space for the first time. This also defined the music of the eighties and you could have the drums in one aural space, the guitars in another and the vocals in yet another. The listeners ear was thus bombarded with conflicting cues about imaging and localization of sounds. It could be done tastefully (Tears for Fears The Seeds of Love for example) or it could be done badly, as is the case with CMIARS. It was going to be 2c but ended as my 95c worth - ah well. Dave >> On 7 May 2014, at 13:04, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: >> >> > anything for me.> >> >> I hear you Anne. I was really excited like everyone else to hear that Joni >> was coming out with new material, and there are a couple worthwhile songs >> on it (Strong & Wrong, Night Of The Iguana, If) but the production is >> hollow and cheesy and many of the songs are grasping at straws - and >> almost embarrassing to re-record one of her more popular songs - why?. >> Once again her ego got in the way of what could have been a better >> product. And I can't BEAR to hear the title track, it's like a 7-minute >> long droning WHINE. Andy Rooney put to music. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 11:42:22 +0100 From: Garret Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #646 I'm still here too folks. I don't read every mail that comes through to be honest. I still enjoy a good Joni chat. I'm also still looking for music recommendations. Garret On 7 May 2014 02:03, "Jack Merkel" wrote: > Ha! I don't know about him, but the old Jack with the barely passable > voice is still here! > > Jack > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 6, 2014, at 1:03 PM, lawntreader@googlemail.com wrote: > > > > Where is young Jack with the amazing voice? Jack are you still around? > > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 15:47:06 +0000 From: "Reimers, Gay" Subject: RE: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #153 Have to agree, Taming the tiger makes me cringe. CMIRS has some fun in it - -----Original Message----- From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 12:00 AM To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #153 onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, May 7 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 153 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: CMIARS [Lori Renee Fye ] Here [Michael Sentance ] Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #667 [Michael Paz ] Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #667 [Michael Paz ] Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #646 [Jack Merkel ] CMIARS [Paul Ivice ] Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #667 [Lori Renee Fye ] Re: CMIARS a masterwork? [Mariana Intagliata ] Re: CMIARS [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: CMIARS ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" ] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 21:11:49 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: CMIARS > who can name a Joni album of new material that is worse than CMIARS? It may not be worse, but just as bad for me is Taming The Tiger. Lori - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 17:34:32 -0400 From: Michael Sentance Subject: Here I used to be here but I'm finding myself there many days. I read JMDL religiously first thing in the morning. I still love learning about her and her music especially from those far more knowledgeable than me. As I have said at other times, it is sometimes like sitting in a graduate course when you're still in high school. And I'm still hoping that Croz or someone convinces her to go to the studio once more. Michael - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 20:15:16 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #667 LoL!! I do bite and can do it hard with the 3 teeth I have left. Sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Lori Renee Fye wrote: >> I am new to the site. Just joined a few days ago. >> Yes, it is pretty frightening. > > Hi Lisa, and welcome! > > Pay no attention to Paz, and don't frightened. We don't bite (too hard). > :-) > > (Kidding. DO pay attention to Paz, although not about being afwaid.) > > Lori > Caldwell, Idaho - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 19:17:35 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #667 Welcome Lisa be vewy vewy afwaid Best Paz in New Orleans (still here after all these years 1998) On May 6, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Lisa Caswell wrote: Hi I am new to the site. Just joined a few days ago. Yes, it is pretty frightening. Lisa. - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 19:55:48 -0500 From: Jack Merkel Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #646 Ha! I don't know about him, but the old Jack with the barely passable voice is still here! Jack Sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2014, at 1:03 PM, lawntreader@googlemail.com wrote: > > Where is young Jack with the amazing voice? Jack are you still around? > Anita - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 17:43:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ivice Subject: CMIARS From: Anne Sandstrom > Subject: Re: CMIARS a masterwork? > > I'd have to agree that I don't think CMIARS qualifies as a masterwork. > But after singing in a choir for a couple of years (and doing some pretty intricate pieces), I'd say that CMIARS is a singular work in Joni's catalog. I know many of you think Joni has never put out a bad album, but if you were all asked which of her albums was your least favorite or her worst, I'm guessing CMIARS would be strongly represented in that poll. It was not just a joke when I said earlier that CMIARS is aptly named, because for me there is not a memorable song on the entire album (except Bob M. might note that Dancin' Clown is memorable in a notorious sort of way). Seriously, I don't mean to make this too negative, but who can name a Joni album of new material that is worse than CMIARS? Paul Ivice ;>) - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 19:03:55 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2014 #667 > I am new to the site. Just joined a few days ago. > Yes, it is pretty frightening. Hi Lisa, and welcome! Pay no attention to Paz, and don't frightened. We don't bite (too hard). :-) (Kidding. DO pay attention to Paz, although not about being afwaid.) Lori Caldwell, Idaho - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 18:04:49 -0300 From: Mariana Intagliata Subject: Re: CMIARS a masterwork? I think she has a more textural approach to composition in this record. Eventhough it's not my favourite Joni album, I've always loved CMIARS, maybe because I grew up in the eighties and that sound is very dear to me, or maybe because it's a different Joni and I love being surprised by an artist. I think it is important to differentiate between a judgement of taste, and a judgement based on knowledge. You may not like CMIARS, or you may not enjoy it, but that would not make it a failure as a work of art. Mariana 2014-05-05 12:56 GMT-03:00 Anne Sandstrom : > I'd have to agree that I don't think CMIARS qualifies as a masterwork. > But after singing in a choir for a couple of years (and doing some > pretty intricate pieces), I'd say that CMIARS is a singular work in > Joni's catalog. The songs seem to be meant more for a number of > voices, not one voice. It's almost jarring when it gets to "A Bird > That Whistles" because there is one well defined melodic thread, > rather than vocal parts that fit together to form a whole. I've never > really read anything on how Joni composed the songs. I'd always > assumed she took a very different approach. I wouldn't be surprised if > she recorded vocal parts in layers as she wrote them. But that's just a complete guess. Does anybody know? > lots > of love,Anne on May 05, 2014, David J. Phillips > > wrote: > > My online dictionary says "In modern English the word is usually > reserved for the best piece of work of a particular creative artist > or > craftsman." If we go with that definition, I can't imagine that > CMiaRS > qualifies. > > djp, following up his own post, for god's sake. > > On 05/05/14 09:1727, David J. Phillips wrote: > > Just to be pedantic, isn't (or wasn't) a masterwork the single > piece > > that proved one was no longer an apprentice (and, in another system > of > > craft production, could set up shop on one's own, and take on > apprentices)? > > > > So perhaps Song to a Seagull is Mitchell's masterwork, or Court and > > Spark. Certainly nothing later. > > > > djp > > > > > > On 05/05/14 08:5018, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > >> I just don't think it's fair to label something as a masterwork > 'just > >> because' one says so. > >> > >> You can refer to Citizen Kane, Rhapsody In Blue, The Mona Lisa, > Gone With > >> The Wind, The Sistine Chapel, To Kill A Mockingbird as masterworks > and > >> nobody would bat an eye because they are recognized as such over > time. I > >> think it dilutes the meaning of the word to put CMIARS in that > category. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> NP: Sinead O'Connor, "Nothing Compares To You" > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Jamie Zubairi Home > >> To: ingrid lochrenberg, > >> Cc: Joni JMDL > >> Date: 05/05/2014 08:32 AM > >> Subject: Re: CMIARS > >> Sent by: owner-joni@smoe.org > >> > >> > >> > >> Or even "the work of a master" > >> On 5 May 2014 13:13, "ingrid lochrenberg" > wrote: > >> > >>> Something can be regarded by a person as a masterwork based > solely on > >> it's > >>> impact....with no criteria or intellectualization in-mind. > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > >> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > >> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > >> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > >> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, > dissemination, > >> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > >> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > >> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > >> > >> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > >> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 23:20:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Re: CMIARS Paul asked: Seriously, I don't mean to make this too negative, but who can name a Joni album of new material that is worse than CMIARS? My response might make some wince. But, frankly, "Shine" didn't do anything for me. Add to that the fact that it was the last thing I gave Smurph (and it sort of defined that time), then I'd have to consider it my least favorite Joni album. lots of love,Anne - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 07:49:59 +0100 (BST) From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: Re: CMIARS All, Regarding Taming the Tiger, it could be hybridised with The Tiger who came for Tea. see attached http://us6.campaign-archive2.com/?u=323597127dd1adc1e3e1dcea2&id=b9bd360513&e=acb2e9e71e However, the young audience could find "Sex Kills" confusing. I know it is heretical,but I've never really liked most of DJRD. John >---- Original Message---- >From: lori.fye@gmail.com >Date: 07/05/2014 03:11 >To: "Anne Sandstrom" >Cc: "ivpaul42 ." , "Joni List", >Subj: Re: CMIARS > >> who can name a Joni album of new material that is worse than CMIARS? > >It may not be worse, but just as bad for me is Taming The Tiger. > >Lori - ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #153 ********************************* - ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #154 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe