From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #97 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, March 20 2014 Volume 2014 : Number 097 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Complete So Far [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Complete So Far [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Complete So Far [Betsy Blue ] RE: Complete So Far [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Handwritten lyrics [Les Irvin ] Re: Complete So Far [lawntreader@googlemail.com] re: Complete So Far [c Karma ] Complete So Far [Betsy Blue ] Re: Complete So Far [Michael Paz ] RE: Handwritten lyrics ["Susan E. McNamara" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 11:08:07 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: RE: Complete So Far Hey, I have been working on the guitar part on "Tenth World" - hooray for me! Bob NP: Apocalyptica, "Ruska" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:58:49 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Complete So Far No Anita, it's got that wicked bass lick (technically a guitar, right?) that I could never duplicate. Bob From: lawntreader@googlemail.com To: "Susan E. McNamara" , Cc: "Bob.Muller@fluor.com" , "joni@smoe.org" Date: 03/20/2014 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Complete So Far Sent by: owner-joni@smoe.org Bob, you working up to 'Smokin'? Fit guy like you, I'm sure the transcription will be brilliant! Anita Sent from my new iPad which, with its HD camera, makes every wrinkle look like an abyss. > On 20 Mar 2014, at 15:27, "Susan E. McNamara" > like Joni. Next up for me, Fiddle And The Drum, Coin In The Pocket and I's A > Muggin'. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:21:39 -0700 From: Betsy Blue Subject: Re: Complete So Far It is a gorgeous transcription! I listened and read along with the full score four times the first day it was posted. That hour was time well spent in terms of understanding the way all the sounds came together. I can't thank you enough for all your hard work, Dave. On Mar 20, 2014 10:14 AM, "Dave Blackburn" wrote: > Betsy, I'm glad the chart is getting used already. It was a biggie. > > Dave > > > On Mar 20, 2014, at 10:10 AM, Betsy Blue wrote: > > > Bob, > > > > I can sing One Week Last Summer perfectly. Would you care to do some > > acapella harmony? > > > > Seriously, I'm working on Paprika Plains on piano, which is literally the > > only reason I came to this list. I haven't been this excited to get sheet > > music since Rhapsody in Blue when I was about 12. > > > > Betsy > > > >>> Next up for me, Fiddle And The Drum, Coin In The Pocket and > >> I's A > >>> Muggin'. > >>> > >>> Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 11:18:10 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: RE: Complete So Far So is it right or not, Boob, I mean Bob!! <3 J <3> Boob? Ahhh, that takes me back to playground days...and yes, it sounds just like Joni. Next up for me, Fiddle And The Drum, Coin In The Pocket and I's A Muggin'. Bob NP: Archive, "Kings Of Speed" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:56:59 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Handwritten lyrics Joni's handwritten lyrics for "Judgement of the Moon and Stars" up for auction. http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/25066737_joni-mitchell-rare-handwritten-lyrics ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 08:55:17 +0000 From: lawntreader@googlemail.com Subject: Re: Complete So Far Hi Mark You are right about the book - I mentioned the problem about the Dawntreader a little while back. However, I can imagine Joni and Joel not remembering or having the level of attention to detail we are fortunate to have amongst our transcribers here on JMDL. I could also imagine Joni not wanting to give her magic away too easily! Anita > On 20 Mar 2014, at 04:35, Mark Domyancich wrote: > > Jonilistas, > > I've finally gotten a chance to look over the new songbook, and a lot > of what I'll say won't be interesting to the non-musicians on the > list, so feel free to skip past all this! While I appreciate the fact > that the book has Joni's and Joel's input, and a nice photo section, > it's kind of a letdown. I had high hopes for this book. When I was > doing the transcriptions for JM.com, as dead certain as I was about a > particular tuning or note or guitar shape, I couldn't be 100% positive > that it was correct. It sounded correct to my ears, but unfortunately > I didn't have Joni or Joel on speed dial to tell me if I was correct > or not. But hearing about this book kind of got me excited. I felt > that finally I didn't have to question my own transcriptions because > we have the source's input. Joel has known Joni for years longer than > I've been alive, and I know that he kept notes over the years of her > tunings and chord shapes. And who better to have apart of this project > than someone who's been there all along? But at some point with these > transcriptions, there began a disconnect of sorts. > > Transcribers are a talented bunch. They love music so much that they > want to learn how to play a particular song. Some are so talented at > it that they go pro and do it for a living. I never considered myself > talented enough to make a career out of it. But transcribers have this > tendency to take a standard approach to a song. And that's fine > because 9 songs out of 10 these days are written in standard tuning, > and they're played in a standard way. But we all know that Joni's > guitar style is definitely non-standard. And for an "end-all-be-all" > guitar songbook to be released, the input of a non-standard > transcriber is key. And that's where my main issue with this songbook > lies. Sue, Marian, Howard and I all understand Joni's guitar style. We > understand her tunings and we understand her chords. And from studying > this book I notice this disconnect. There are tunings and chords in > the book that are just simply wrong. For instance, this prevalent Open > E tuning on songs like "Chelsea Morning." When Joni performed it on > the Dick Cavett Show, she tuned to Open D and then used a capo on the > 2nd fret. While the open chord is correct either way, it's not how she > played it. Open E is kind of the bane of my guitar existence. It's a > dangerous tuning not just for the strings but also the construction of > the guitar. Likewise, the tuning for "In France They Kiss on Main > Street" is EBF#ABE. It's going to take some balls to tune a guitar > that high. Also, they say the opening chord for "Borderline" is an > overhand barre. Again, if you're familiar with her guitar style, with > the exception of two songs, that's not how she plays it. And input > from someone familiar with her tunings would know this. And that is my > main issue with the book. Before going to print it really needed > someone (like me!) to go over everything to make sure these mistakes > were corrected. Generally speaking, it's really nicely done. From what > I've been studying, there's really very little to complain about. But > I do want to mention that some songbooks in the past, notably the > Mingus and Hits & Misses songbooks are exceptionally detailed (one of > these days I'm going to learn how to read piano music and play "Sweet > Sucker Dance"), and I was certainly hoping for the level of detail > those books had in this book. I hope, eventually someday, there will > be a complete book done with the tablature for both guitar and > dulcimer as well as all of the piano songs. When that happens I'd be > happy to give it my stamp of approval, but until then... I'm supporting > the transcriptions that I and others have done that are posted on > JM.com. While it is nice to have a hardbound book with a nice photo > section and 90% correct tunings and chords, I can't say that I didn't > learn anything new from the book that I didn't already learn from the > posted transcriptions. A couple of other things though... > > A minor typo, but they have the header on "Blue Motel Room" as "Blue > Hotel Room." The introduction tab for it looks like it got lost along > the way a bit as several of those notes are wrong. The "middle 8" bit > seems more like an interpretation than a transcription. I played along > with it and again, it isn't correct. > > "Talk to Me": the tuning isn't right which leads to chord shapes that > also aren't correct. There are also important considerations that > aren't mentioned, like 12-string guitars, as I noticed in the Complete > songbook that came out several years ago as well. Thankfully though, > at least, they made mention (albeit, not exactly clear) of the > Nashville guitar strings on "A Bird That Whistles." They say they're > tuned an octave higher which is true but an unwound set from a > 12-string package is necessary to get the octaves right. > > "Night Ride Home": tuning is correct but they have the chords wrong. > "Passion Play" kind of hurts my brain because the tuning is wrong and > to make up for it they have a single fretted note which gives it the > right open chord (they have it in open D and then 002000, making it > DAEF#AD, which is the right tuning). > > -Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:31:54 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re: Complete So Far Thanks, Mark for "fact checking" the tunings and charts. I have heard rumblings that the book may have had some things wrong. It seems strange that Joel would recommend tunings that could be dangerous or destructive to the instrument. Do you think that there should be notes about string gauges (again strange that they would be absent) that would mitigate the stresses? A complete "Complete So Far" list of tunings that are incorrect in the book would be very helpful if you think you could stomach the chore? Looks like you've come upon quite a few already. CC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:10:06 -0700 From: Betsy Blue Subject: Complete So Far Bob, I can sing One Week Last Summer perfectly. Would you care to do some acapella harmony? Seriously, I'm working on Paprika Plains on piano, which is literally the only reason I came to this list. I haven't been this excited to get sheet music since Rhapsody in Blue when I was about 12. Betsy > > Next up for me, Fiddle And The Drum, Coin In The Pocket and > I's A > > Muggin'. > > > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:13:21 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Complete So Far Thanks for your work Mark as always. I have the book out on the piano at the moment open to Banquet. I have not had time to really dive into it. I have some time coming up and hope to spend some hours relearning tunes and exploring it. At the moment I am headed to Mexico for a show. Best Paz On Mar 20, 2014, at 9:24 AM, Susan E. McNamara wrote: Thanks so much Mark, you have done a lot more work on this book than I have so far, so I really appreciate your feedback. The songs I have tried so far are Trouble Child, Nathan LaFraneer, Circle Game, and Sweet Bird, mostly because I've been in open G for the last three months practicing for the Joni Tribute. I do this sometimes ... I just play in a variation of the same tuning for a really long time until I have all of the songs down. My initial bias is that although I didn't see too much wrong about the way these songs were tabbed, there were slight differences from the tabs at the website where I said to myself (as you mention too) Joni wouldn't do that. I guess in my arrogance (for myself anyway), I like this book as a "companion" to the database. I'm sure as I work through more of the songs, and I hope others do this too, we can alert each other where we think the book misses the mark. I only say this because my mission statement has always been How Is Joni Playin! g It. As you say about transcribers, they may be very fluent in the language of written music, but Joni is the composer, and it's her sound and craftsmanship that we are focused on. That's how I operate, anyway. THANK YOU MARK!! Love, Sue Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Mark Domyancich Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 12:36 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Complete So Far Jonilistas, I've finally gotten a chance to look over the new songbook, and a lot of what I'll say won't be interesting to the non-musicians on the list, so feel free to skip past all this! While I appreciate the fact that the book has Joni's and Joel's input, and a nice photo section, it's kind of a letdown. I had high hopes for this book. When I was doing the transcriptions for JM.com, as dead certain as I was about a particular tuning or note or guitar shape, I couldn't be 100% positive that it was correct. It sounded correct to my ears, but unfortunately I didn't have Joni or Joel on speed dial to tell me if I was correct or not. But hearing about this book kind of got me excited. I felt that finally I didn't have to question my own transcriptions because we have the source's input. Joel has known Joni for years longer than I've been alive, and I know that he kept notes over the years of her tunings and chord shapes. And who better to have apart of this project than someone who's b! een there all along? But at some point with these transcriptions, there began a disconnect of sorts. Transcribers are a talented bunch. They love music so much that they want to learn how to play a particular song. Some are so talented at it that they go pro and do it for a living. I never considered myself talented enough to make a career out of it. But transcribers have this tendency to take a standard approach to a song. And that's fine because 9 songs out of 10 these days are written in standard tuning, and they're played in a standard way. But we all know that Joni's guitar style is definitely non-standard. And for an "end-all-be-all" guitar songbook to be released, the input of a non-standard transcriber is key. And that's where my main issue with this songbook lies. Sue, Marian, Howard and I all understand Joni's guitar style. We understand her tunings and we understand her chords. And from studying this book I notice this disconnect. There are tunings and chords in the book that are just simply wrong. For instance, this prevalent Open E tuning on songs like "Chelsea Morning." When Joni performed it on the Dick Cavett Show, she tuned to Open D and then used a capo on the 2nd fret. While the open chord is correct either way, it's not how she played it. Open E is kind of the bane of my guitar existence. It's a dangerous tuning not just for the strings but also the construction of the guitar. Likewise, the tuning for "In France They Kiss on Main Street" is EBF#ABE. It's going to take some balls to tune a guitar that high. Also, they say the opening chord for "Borderline" is an overhand barre. Again, if you! 're familiar with her guitar style, with the exception of two songs, that's not how she plays it. And input from someone familiar with her tunings would know this. And that is my main issue with the book. Before going to print it really needed someone (like me!) to go over everything to make sure these mistakes were corrected. Generally speaking, it's really nicely done. From what I've been studying, there's really very little to complain about. But I do want to mention that some songbooks in the past, notably the Mingus and Hits & Misses songbooks are exceptionally detailed (one of these days I'm going to learn how to read piano music and play "Sweet Sucker Dance"), and I was certainly hoping for the level of detail those books had in this book. I hope, eventually someday, there will be a complete book done with the tablature for both guitar and dulcimer as well as all of the piano songs. When that happens I'd be happy to give it my stamp of approval, but until then... I'm! supporting the transcriptions that I and others have done tha! t are po sted on JM.com. While it is nice to have a hardbound book with a nice photo section and 90% correct tunings and chords, I can't say that I didn't learn anything new from the book that I didn't already learn from the posted transcriptions. A couple of other things though... A minor typo, but they have the header on "Blue Motel Room" as "Blue Hotel Room." The introduction tab for it looks like it got lost along the way a bit as several of those notes are wrong. The "middle 8" bit seems more like an interpretation than a transcription. I played along with it and again, it isn't correct. "Talk to Me": the tuning isn't right which leads to chord shapes that also aren't correct. There are also important considerations that aren't mentioned, like 12-string guitars, as I noticed in the Complete songbook that came out several years ago as well. Thankfully though, at least, they made mention (albeit, not exactly clear) of the Nashville guitar strings on "A Bird That Whistles." They say they're tuned an octave higher which is true but an unwound set from a 12-string package is necessary to get the octaves right. "Night Ride Home": tuning is correct but they have the chords wrong. "Passion Play" kind of hurts my brain because the tuning is wrong and to make up for it they have a single fretted note which gives it the right open chord (they have it in open D and then 002000, making it DAEF#AD, which is the right tuning). - -Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 19:26:01 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Handwritten lyrics That looks like a very early draft ... only a few lines actually made it to the final version. I find it fascinating to see the process. Just having the photo is enough for me!!! Thanks Les!! :-) Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Anita G Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:17 PM To: jonipeople LIST Subject: Fwd: Handwritten lyrics That looks definitely like Joni's hand writing. But over five hundred quid for it? Is it worth it? I just can't tell - but what a little piece of history. Anita On 20 March 2014 18:56, Les Irvin wrote: > Joni's handwritten lyrics for "Judgement of the Moon and Stars" up for > auction. http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/25066737_joni- > mitchell-rare-handwritten-lyrics ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2014 #97 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe