From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #430 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, November 2 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 430 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Katy becoming Joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1537 [Debra Mann ] Re: Katy becoming Joni [Victor ] Re: Trolls [Gerald P Kent ] Re: Katy becoming Joni [Paul Ivice ] Re: Katy becoming Joni [Sally ] Re: Katy becoming Joni [Corey Blake ] Re: Graham Nash's Wild Tales [kbhla@fastmail.fm] Re: Katy becoming Joni [Gerald P Kent ] Trolls [Michael Flaherty ] RE: Katy Perry and Joni Mitchell ["Susan E. McNamara" ] Re: This Katy Perry/Joni thing [Victor ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 05:58:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Katy becoming Joni What he said. >________________________________ > >How about letting everyone take it however they wish instead of prolonging this idea that everyone has to have the same reaction, everyone has to think the same, feel the same...THEY DON'T! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 23:08:46 -0400 From: Debra Mann Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1537 Laurie, I know what you mean about jazz snobs, but I find that the more mature the musician, the more open they are to anything that is good quality. I think every genre deals with elitists. The classical world has to be the worst, when it comes to snobbery. But, I think Duke Ellington said it best, "There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind." You gotta love that. Ultimately, it comes down to personal taste, though. To this day, I still can't quite explain my love for Neil Young's singing. LOL! Debra Mann PS I just backed Laurie's project on Indiegogo, and I highly recommend others do the same. On Nov 1, 2013, at 7:54 PM, JMDL Digest wrote: > > JMDL Digest Friday, November 1 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1537 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Jazz Snobs [Laurie Antonioli ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 16:54:07 -0700 > From: Laurie Antonioli > Subject: Jazz Snobs > > I haven't had time to follow all the recent posts about the "Kate Perry > incident" but, no one is snobbier than jazz musicians. It's been > interesting to me that many of them have "come clean" about how much Joni > has touched them. And, many jazz singers have included Joni's songs on > their recordings. Tierney Sutton's latest is an example, though her story > is that she didn't even get hip to Joni until about 13 years or so ago. > Some of us, like me, started with Joni and then went on to jazz. As you > know, I'm making a new record of Joni's music and I tell the story here: > > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/songs-of-shadow-songs-of-light/x/1830694 > > And I'm not the least bit snobby about Joni's impact on me. Believe it or > not, the "jazz police" have given me a couple tickets already! > > The biggest point, to me, is that music is not clearly one thing or the > other. At least in jazz, all the masters now are gone. Just a handful > left. And with that, the young jazz musicians are calling on all their > "childhood" influences - jazz singing is such a genre-bending affair > anymore that it's hard to even know how to classify the new crop of "jazz > singers." I deal with this all the time as I run the Vocal Program at a > jazz institution. > > Back to Joni - her music lends itself to jazz, as she was deeply influenced > by jazz music, but, it also transcends and crosses over to people who like > pop, folk, rock, country and so on. Her music, depending on "who" is doing > it can live in any of these environments and THAT is what makes it like > Ellington or Cole Porter. Her songs are like the "Great American Songbook" > or "Standards" which were written in the 1930's and 40's. From 1960's on > up, Joni carved out a niche that works in many settings and because of > that, will live on as some of the most important popular music ever written. > > Laurie Antonioli > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1537 > ****************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 22:10:21 -0400 From: Victor Subject: Re: Katy becoming Joni There's a difference between having an intelligent, respectful discussion and making personal attacks, insulting, and judging people, i.e. creating drama... Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 9:48 PM, Gerald P Kent wrote: > > Thanks Vince. Straight on. I've been on this list for close to 10 years enjoying the Joni stuff. Now it is getting almost scary for anyone to challenge any comment from one of the "in-crowd". One lister suggested that I remove myself from the list!! It's almost like a book burning. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:06 PM, Vince Lavieri wrote: >> >> Just wow. >> >> People who know little to nothing about Katy Perry are doing incredible psychoanalysis of exactly what she meant from an out of context squib from Huffington Post. >> >> You all work for the National Enquirer? >> >> Vince >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 1, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Clint Norwood wrote: >>> >>> Hooray Paul, >>> >>> This is succint and accurate to a "T." Katy said it like it was >>> easy like switching hairstyles or wardrobes and that is consistent with the >>> half of our population that doesn't think about it a little deeper. That made >>> her seem dopey despite whatever she sings or does. One does not have to know >>> who Katy Perry is (I confess I don't know that much other than the campaigning >>> for elections (always a bad choice for artists even Babe Ruth was more >>> intelligent than that) to know that anyone who says something flippantly like >>> that (and doesn't realize how shallow and insufficient that is) isn't the >>> smartest HUMAN BEING there is. Joni says things that irk people and maybe >>> doesn't always express herself in the way, I think that she would even >>> ultimately want. However, I don't remember her expressing her desire to be >>> like Jayne Mansfield. >>> >>> Peace and Happy Friday >>> -Clint >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, November >>> 1, 2013 12:58 PM, Paul Ivice wrote: >>> >>> Gerald wrote: I >>> believe this gal Katy (of whom I know nothing about -- have >>> no kids and do not >>> listen to today's radio) was trashed rather significantly >>> because she >>> insinuated she would like to be like Joni. >>> >>> >>> I don't think the problem most of >>> us had was that Katy Perry said she's >>> wanted to be Joni Mitchell, but the way >>> Katy said she would probably become >>> like Joni as though it were some easy or >>> natural thing for her to do. >>> Even if I conceded that pop singers/musicians >>> like Katy Perry or Taylor Swift >>> had the chops to write songs with as much >>> depth as Joni or play their >>> instruments with such aplomb and creativity, which >>> I am not prepared to do, >>> would they have the guts to continue evolving in >>> their musical choices as they >>> desire rather than pandering to the appeal of >>> the masses who buy their CDs by >>> the millions? >>> I think not. >>> So you can defend >>> the artistry of Katy Perry all you want, but what she said >>> about Joni was an >>> insult to Joni and the risks she has taken throughout her >>> career. >>> >>> >>> Paul >>> Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 00:49:11 -0400 From: Gerald P Kent Subject: Re: Trolls Oh no, just when I thought the conversation was raised to intelligent along comes the aforementioned condescension. Sad! Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 2, 2013, at 12:31 AM, Sally wrote: > > Amen to that brother! > > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:30 PM, Michael Flaherty wrote: >> >> Please don't feed the trolls. It just makes them hungry for more. >> >> Your pleas >> and arguments just give the illusion that they are important and have >> interesting lives, and to compare themselves to the oppressed, >> >> >> >> Michael F. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 02:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ivice Subject: Re: Katy becoming Joni Here's what she said: I'll probably turn into more of a Joni Mitchell. As I inch towards my 30s, I think my fourth record will be more of an acoustic guitar album. Clearly she's not saying she can be Joni. She seems to be saying that she will be trying to evolve her music to more of an acoustic style. In the style of Joni... As we know, that's a major assumption and simplification. We are all Joni experts...we could point out a few things to her. She's a baby. She's 29 for Christ sake people...remember when? She didn't mean to slight Joni. I hope she covers Joni on her next record. HAHAHAHA! Then Bob can add her to one of his cover lists and redeem himself. At that time, the "herd" can disperse, Bob can lay down his staff forevermore, and all will be well again in JoniLand! ;D I'm hopeful! I still think what she said was arrogant and insulting to Joni, as if it would be easy for Katy to do that. Furthermore, it seems to me it gets worse because Katy has a poor concept of Joni's career and growth as a musician if she thinks of Joni merely as an acoustic guitar player. Joni started as an acoustic folk singer and evolved through electric rock and into jazz. Whoever called Katy a pea-brain was closer to the truth than you gave him credit for, Paul Ivice ;>) - -----Original Message----- From: Sally To: Paul Ivice Cc: gpkm6208 ; dahrius1 ; revrvl ; joni Sent: Sat, Nov 2, 2013 12:45 am Subject: Re: Katy becoming Joni Sorry Paul. I think you misunderstand the meaning in Katy Perry's comments. Here's what she said: I'll probably turn into more of a Joni Mitchell. As I inch towards my 30s, I think my fourth record will be more of an acoustic guitar album. Clearly she's not saying she can be Joni. She seems to be saying that she will be trying to evolve her music to more of an acoustic style. In the style of Joni... As we know, that's a major assumption and simplification. We are all Joni experts...we could point out a few things to her. She's a baby. She's 29 for Christ sake people...remember when? She didn't mean to slight Joni. I hope she covers Joni on her next record. HAHAHAHA! Then Bob can add her to one of his cover lists and redeem himself. At that time, the "herd" can disperse, Bob can lay down his staff forevermore, and all will be well again in JoniLand! ;D I'm hopeful! > On Nov 1, 2013, at 10:39 PM, Paul Ivice wrote: > > The arrogance, I fear, is certainly not coming from this gal Katy. Please > read > some of the comments being made by the listers. > > > On that point, my friend, you are clearly wrong. It is arrogant for Katy to > say that she could become like Joni Mitchell as if that were her fallback > position. At least that's what it sounded to me like she was saying. > > Joni followed her own heart, or her muse, to create the kind of music she > wanted, not what she thought would be the most popular or sold the most > recordings. She made her audience follow her, if they chose to, but she did > not follow her audience, which is what pop stars do. > To paraphrase Voltaire, I don't like some of the choices Joni made, but I > respect the hell out of the reasons she made them. > I don't see Katy Perry having those kind of guts. Instead, she seems to be > interested in beingpart of the star-maker machinery that pumps out popular > songs. I am not criticizing her for that. It is what most people would do. But > it does not give her the riht to think she could become like Joni. > > > > Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 00:45:07 -0400 From: Sally Subject: Re: Katy becoming Joni Sorry Paul. I think you misunderstand the meaning in Katy Perry's comments. Here's what she said: I'll probably turn into more of a Joni Mitchell. As I inch towards my 30s, I think my fourth record will be more of an acoustic guitar album. Clearly she's not saying she can be Joni. She seems to be saying that she will be trying to evolve her music to more of an acoustic style. In the style of Joni... As we know, that's a major assumption and simplification. We are all Joni experts...we could point out a few things to her. She's a baby. She's 29 for Christ sake people...remember when? She didn't mean to slight Joni. I hope she covers Joni on her next record. HAHAHAHA! Then Bob can add her to one of his cover lists and redeem himself. At that time, the "herd" can disperse, Bob can lay down his staff forevermore, and all will be well again in JoniLand! ;D I'm hopeful! > On Nov 1, 2013, at 10:39 PM, Paul Ivice wrote: > > The arrogance, I fear, is certainly not coming from this gal Katy. Please > read > some of the comments being made by the listers. > > > On that point, my friend, you are clearly wrong. It is arrogant for Katy to > say that she could become like Joni Mitchell as if that were her fallback > position. At least that's what it sounded to me like she was saying. > > Joni followed her own heart, or her muse, to create the kind of music she > wanted, not what she thought would be the most popular or sold the most > recordings. She made her audience follow her, if they chose to, but she did > not follow her audience, which is what pop stars do. > To paraphrase Voltaire, I don't like some of the choices Joni made, but I > respect the hell out of the reasons she made them. > I don't see Katy Perry having those kind of guts. Instead, she seems to be > interested in beingpart of the star-maker machinery that pumps out popular > songs. I am not criticizing her for that. It is what most people would do. But > it does not give her the riht to think she could become like Joni. > > > > Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:03:59 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: Katy becoming Joni Joni Mitchell is being held in high regard and we're angry about this? Am I understanding this right? I really fail to see what is so offensive about a current pop star wanting to shift gears and emulate Joni Mitchell at some point. You have to do some serious justification gymnastics to come out the other side of her statement with "how dare she?!". She never said it would be easy. She never said she'd be good at it. She never said it was a fall back. She really said very little about it other than she'd like to one day be more like Joni Mitchell. Anything after that is pure assumption and speculation with a lot of projection. I'd much rather young pop stars say they want to one day have a career more like Joni Mitchell instead of, say, Madonna or Elvira. I'm also curious: When are rights granted for making a career change? Is it quarterly? Annually? Is there a panel one must appear before to submit one's case? On Nov 1, 2013, at 7:39 PM, Paul Ivice wrote: > The arrogance, I fear, is certainly not coming from this gal Katy. Please > read > some of the comments being made by the listers. > > > On that point, my friend, you are clearly wrong. It is arrogant for Katy to > say that she could become like Joni Mitchell as if that were her fallback > position. At least that's what it sounded to me like she was saying. > > Joni followed her own heart, or her muse, to create the kind of music she > wanted, not what she thought would be the most popular or sold the most > recordings. She made her audience follow her, if they chose to, but she did > not follow her audience, which is what pop stars do. > To paraphrase Voltaire, I don't like some of the choices Joni made, but I > respect the hell out of the reasons she made them. > I don't see Katy Perry having those kind of guts. Instead, she seems to be > interested in beingpart of the star-maker machinery that pumps out popular > songs. I am not criticizing her for that. It is what most people would do. But > it does not give her the riht to think she could become like Joni. > > > > Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 19:34:36 -0700 From: kbhla@fastmail.fm Subject: Re: Graham Nash's Wild Tales Thanks for the review, Lindsay. I'd like to read it at some point, no matter the critical points. I know he has to have many good stories to tell! Have always thought Graham was the nice, sane (or maybe relatively sanest) one of CSN(Y) and had the feeling he was probably Joni's nicest mate. I have spoken with him twice and he was very classy and kind. His wife was also with him on one occasion and she was the same. I was impressed with him as a person. You've given some new insights on it all. On the surface, I wonder if he may he may be more just insecure rather than a true narcissist? Looking forward to reading it but will probably wait for the bargain bin on Amazon ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 23:16:53 -0400 From: Gerald P Kent Subject: Re: Katy becoming Joni Thanks Corey. Insightful post! Gerald Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Corey Blake wrote: > > Joni Mitchell is being held in high regard and we're angry about this? Am I understanding this right? > > I really fail to see what is so offensive about a current pop star wanting to shift gears and emulate Joni Mitchell at some point. You have to do some serious justification gymnastics to come out the other side of her statement with "how dare she?!". She never said it would be easy. She never said she'd be good at it. She never said it was a fall back. She really said very little about it other than she'd like to one day be more like Joni Mitchell. Anything after that is pure assumption and speculation with a lot of projection. I'd much rather young pop stars say they want to one day have a career more like Joni Mitchell instead of, say, Madonna or Elvira. > > I'm also curious: When are rights granted for making a career change? Is it quarterly? Annually? Is there a panel one must appear before to submit one's case? > > > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 7:39 PM, Paul Ivice wrote: >> >> The arrogance, I fear, is certainly not coming from this gal Katy. Please >> read >> some of the comments being made by the listers. >> >> >> On that point, my friend, you are clearly wrong. It is arrogant for Katy to >> say that she could become like Joni Mitchell as if that were her fallback >> position. At least that's what it sounded to me like she was saying. >> >> Joni followed her own heart, or her muse, to create the kind of music she >> wanted, not what she thought would be the most popular or sold the most >> recordings. She made her audience follow her, if they chose to, but she did >> not follow her audience, which is what pop stars do. >> To paraphrase Voltaire, I don't like some of the choices Joni made, but I >> respect the hell out of the reasons she made them. >> I don't see Katy Perry having those kind of guts. Instead, she seems to be >> interested in beingpart of the star-maker machinery that pumps out popular >> songs. I am not criticizing her for that. It is what most people would do. But >> it does not give her the riht to think she could become like Joni. >> >> >> >> Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 20:30:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Trolls Please don't feed the trolls. It just makes them hungry for more. Your pleas and arguments just give the illusion that they are important and have interesting lives, and to compare themselves to the oppressed, Michael F. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:58:06 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Katy Perry and Joni Mitchell I like how this discussion has talked about the influence of Katy on the young kids ... my niece opted to join an after school music program (kind of reminds me of School of Rock) because of her love of Katy. She's learning how to play guitar and bass at the ripe age of 9! I love that!!! I'm all for people setting a high bar for their achievements ... but I've also tried to teach my daughter that having a high bar means working hard and knowing you will hit many rocks in the road. Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu From: Arkay Adkisson [mailto:piercedcanvas@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:46 PM To: Susan E. McNamara Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Katy Perry and Joni Mitchell I watched a documentary/concert film about Katy Perry with my teens, and I was impressed with her work ethic and her dedication to her career. I wouldn't call myself a fan-not by definition, but I do appreciate a couple of the songs my kids play often, others are like an ear worm I can't get out of my head unless I use a stronger ear worm ("i would walk 500 miles usually does the trick) Of course, a lot of artists cite Joni as an inspiration-I certainly am not a fan of all of them-but her music does speak to millions of people-all with different styles of their own. Katy Perry is very young, but has been 'in this career' for years and I'm sure her music, lyrics, and style will keep growing and evolving-like Joni Mitchell, sure-but also like any artist that practices her craft for decades. Arkay On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Susan E. McNamara > wrote: I don't see anything wrong with loving Katy Perry ... my niece Piper idolizes her. I make no assumptions that the type of music she makes is not uplifting and enjoyable to millions of people, whatever age they are. It is true too that her genre of music has been very open to many young women who are doing great and making a lot of money. When she says (me paraphrasing) "I want to be like a Joni Mitchell" ... is she saying that she would like to be respected like Joni as an artist and great songwriter who followed her art no matter where it took her ... or is she saying that she wants to take her art wherever it takes her even if that means being ostracized ... Joni's courage was based on a surrender to the gift and where it took her was a risk she was willing to take. I guess time will tell, but I don't fault people for being skeptical ... throwing around Joni's name pretty much puts you in the bull's eye ... are you that gifted? Put your money where your mouth is, I say. I hope Katy Perry succeeds!!!! Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:09:53 -0400 From: Victor Subject: Re: This Katy Perry/Joni thing Good things to adhere to, particularly 2 & 3. The Four Agreements (Don Miguel Ruiz) 1. Be impeccable with your word. 2. Donbt take anything personally. 3. Donbt make assumptions. 4. Always do your best. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #430 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe