From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #418 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, October 30 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 418 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- The Katy Perry thing [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] No Apologies [c Karma ] Re: This Katy Perry/Joni thing [shadows and light ] Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1477 [Clint Norwood ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:39:33 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: The Katy Perry thing Well...good morning everyone! I have been absent from the list most of the month, travelling all over the country, from the Gulf Stream Waters to the Redwood forests (literally) and then to Raleigh NC for a week, too busy to respond to emails. Glad my little comment stirred things up. Anyway - let me just clarify a few things: 1. I'm good at several things; my job, being a Dad, tennis and others. I really suck at other things; golf, cooking, and especially misogyny. Not that that's something I WANT to be good at. Thanks Shari for pointing that out, even though we've never met. 2. I have no problem with Katy Perry's music - "I Kissed A Girl" was a brilliant pop song, she hasn't followed that with anything that has impressed me, but I can appreciate what she does in the context of making pop music. When I am hanging out with my next-door neighbors and we have a spontaneous dance party with their 6 and 3-year old kids, we turn on "Katy Perry Radio" on Pandora. Her music is fun, boppy, bouncy, danceable stuff. What I DO have a problem with is hearing someone say, "I'll probably turn into a Joni Mitchell", which reminded me of Canada's program to 'make van Goghs" that Joni railed against for good reason. I'm not going to sit down and do a "paint-by-numbers" work and imagine that I'll probably turn into Picasso. That would be a stupid thing to think. As stupid as, I don't know, marrying Russell Brand and thinking it would work out. 3. I was a fan of Hole but didn't have Celebrity Skin until Rob recommended it. It's hands-down my favorite Hole album. As for new music, that's basically ALL I listen to. Go back to my original post and you'll see that I was spinning the new Arcade Fire record. It came out YESTERDAY. And bonus that Hole has a Joni cover to their credit. 4. I don't believe that Joni would be supportive in any way of Katy Perry's work. From a 2002 interview: Mitchell herself refuses to do anything to try to become more salable. bWhat would I do?b she says, laughing. bShow my t*ts? Grab my crotch? Get hair extensions and a choreographer? Itbs not my world.b One of the most constantly evolving of contemporary recording artists, she has never fit into any one category, going from folk to rock to jazz and making forays into world music and classical, all while firmly turning her back on the mainstream. Thanks for the discussion, always. Bob NP: Ben Folds Five, "One Chord Blues" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:40:11 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: No Apologies Arkay wrote:"The constant barrage [of mysogynist sentiment] is not a reference to the JMDL list, but to society and the media as a whole.""...then do what you need to in order to let go of that behaviour and be a better man. Be the kind of man that learns, and unlearns, the kind that says I'm sorry and MEANS it." I don't believe that any single individual on this list should be placed in the position of apologizing to assuage indignation caused by society and the media as a whole. CC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:25:29 -0700 From: shadows and light Subject: Re: This Katy Perry/Joni thing and under # number 3, using i "know joni would this or wouldn't that," is silly. done it myself. On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Victor wrote: > Good things to adhere to, particularly 2 & 3. > > The Four Agreements (Don Miguel Ruiz) > 1. Be impeccable with your word. > 2. Donb t take anything personally. > 3. Donb t make assumptions. > 4. Always do your best. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 02:47:42 -0700 From: Matthew Tong Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1476 Rob, People here don't like Hole? That's too bad. I just wanted to tell you that I love Celebrity Skin too. I'll go as far as to say that I like it even more than Live Through This (which is also good). Anyways, I like that there are lots of people on this list who are open-minded enough to defend Katy Perry. While she's yet to succeed at putting out a "great" album after three chances so far, she's managed to make quite a few incredible songs. I usually keep track of my favourite singles of each year and every year she puts out an album, a lot of her singles are usually up there for me. So while she's definitely no Joni, I give her props because I can definitely appreciate stuff like "I Kissed a Girl", "Teenage Dream", "Roar", etc. because they are extremely catchy and fun. Sure, everyone is free to say whatever they want about anybody, If people aren't into something, I have no problem with them saying that they're not a fan of a particular artist's music. But what I find to be of no value are comments that are beyond negative and just seem kind of hateful. I'm not deeply offended by Bob's comment, nor do I find it extremely heinous, but it was directed towards someone that I do like, so it's only natural for me to want to come to the defense. It just seemed a little juvenile, the same way my immature friends (who are in their late teens/early 20s) would talk about people. What I look for in the JMDL is what I try to look for in all other forums. People acknowledging, appreciating, recognising, and respecting music from Joni (or anyone else) that they think is worth talking about. Why waste time in saying something overly negative about an artist? It's much more interesting when someone tells me what they DO like. Tell me about something great. Recommend me something. Spread the word about music that you think is worth hearing. Matt On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 10:57 PM, JMDL Digest wrote: > > JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 30 2013 Volume 2013 : Number > 1476 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > This Katy Perry/Joni thing [Rob Procyk < > evian@sasktel.net>] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 23:48:19 -0600 > From: Rob Procyk > Subject: This Katy Perry/Joni thing > > I gotta say I am a big fan of Katy Perry - I have pre-teen daughters and > have spent more than a little time listening to "their" music, so I too > have Miley and Katy and everyone else on my iPods. Anyway, I really like > Katy. That being said, I don't think Bob's comment was offensive at all - > it was meant as a joke and I don't think it is misogynistic that he > basically scoffed that Katy would grow into a Joni Mitchell. Different > artists, different talents, and come on - its apples and oranges. About > musical snobbery - I've been on this list for 15 years, and I've always had > different tastes than most on here. When I die, I will go to Heaven where > it's always the early 80s, and new romantics and goths and all the other > eyeliner wearing angels will be dancing to The Cure and New Order and Flock > of Seagulls, and then we will all shimmy over to another cloud where 80s > Industrial angels will be making righteous noise, and then we will wind our > nights down with funk and top 40. With! > Stevie Nicks on continual twirl. > Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I don't give a shit what ANYONE > thinks of what I like. Hell, I don't care for Dylan, don't get Nyro, nor do > I claim to understand the brilliance of many other list favorites. People > like what they like, and that's fine with me. If people here are snobby > about top 40 artists? Whatever. I think Stevie Nicks is a genius - 98% on > the list don't, but it doesn't bother me - to each his/her own. I remember > way back when, defending Hole's Celebrity Skin album, and getting > frustrated because the list didn't like even the mention of Courtney Love. > But does it matter? This is the Joni list, so this isn't your typical list > - its special, just like Joni is special. And while I still think Celebrity > Skin is amazing, it doesn't matter to me that nobody else does. And when > Katy does make this silly Joni reference, I chuckled too, even though I > like her and own all her albums. > Long story short: we all come from such different sets of circumstance - > which lead to different musical journeys. So, those who are spinning Nyro > and Television and Ani and whatever else speaks to, rock on. I'll be here > in the basement keeping it real with the synth crowd and Prince and Stevie. > But regardless of what we like and don't like, we have Joni in common. > Isn't that cool? The last 4 albums played on my iPod are by Arcade Fire, No > Doubt, and 2 albums by Skinny Puppy. What are yours? > > Just my rambly 2 cents on a cold Saskatchewan night, > > Rob > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2013-10-29, at 10:25 PM, owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) > wrote: > > > > > JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 30 2013 Volume 2013 : Number > 1468 > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > > -------- > > Re: Katy Perry On The 180 That Saved Her Career [Gerald P Kent > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 00:24:29 -0400 > > From: Gerald P Kent > > Subject: Re: Katy Perry On The 180 That Saved Her Career > > > > Vince, thank you for your honesty in addressing what I consider the > JMDLer's (which I am one of) collective (sorry to many for the > generalizing) disrespectful, condescending and somewhat uninformed opinions > they/we develop relevant to any of the new persons in popular music. It > makes me think of Sonny and Sher and the pop music they developed. Didn't > the same promoter (aka David Geffen) develop them along with Laura Nyro > (who wrote a number of tunes popularized by the 5th dimension, God forgive > their "popness") and others? Thank you for being one of the few "listers" > with the courage to challenge the others, the Joni I know would love it!!! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:01 PM, Vince Lavieri wrote: > >> > >> What follows below is the wording of NPR. I am not a Katy Perry fan > but I > >> found the interview informative in that my perceptions were altered as > to her > >> depth. Not that she has to answer to me. The fact that Scott Simon > did a > >> piece on her says something profound about her. And I wish the > Huffington > >> Post article had had more content on Perry's Joni comment. > >> > >> What I know is this, that as a whole with some obvious exceptions the > JMDL > >> tends to trash on all younger female pop singers. An Erica Badu will > get some > >> respect but mention Taylor Swift and the knives come out. A blues-y > jazzy Amy > >> Winehouse gets love but a woman who sings in the pop category gets put > down > >> and castigated. And if a young female pop singer speaks of her respect > for > >> Joni, the hate fest erupts. As it did when Taylor Swift was connected > to > >> Joni, spoke well of her. The condescending comments were so numerous. > >> > >> Young male pop singers also get dissed but the venom is stronger on the > >> females. > >> > >> I have said before and I will repeat, that too many (and one is too > many) have > >> forgotten two things: 1. hope I did before I get old and 2. Mothers, > fathers > >> through out the land, don't criticize what you don't understand. > >> > >> When I think of how my generation was in the late 60s and early 70s, > with > >> hair, clothes or lack thereof, sexual liberation, drugs, and all kinds > of > >> posing and self aggrandizement, a Katy Perry, Lorde, Miley Cyrus, Gaga, > >> Kei$ha, are what they are: us reflected back at ourselves. They are us, > >> current generation to our faded generation that mocks the way our > parents > >> mocked our music. The quip (which I suspect was said in humor, not to > hurt) > >> about blue hair would never be made about Cindi Lauper but then she is > in her > >> 40s or 50s. Katy Perry's hair has always been black to my knowledge > but maybe > >> I missed a color change. Prism is a powerful album, Roar to me is over > done > >> but so is all Led Zepplin. Not like she invented the arena sound. > Teenage > >> Dream was one of the great albums of this decade. One can respect what > we do > >> not like, understand what is not our genre, and realize that sometimes > the > >> snark comes on so strong it invites the charge of misogyny and reflects > poorly > >> on the elders who are pissed off by the music of the young, which of > course > >> the young should be doing, and that female pop singers do not diminish > Joni by > >> the fact of their talent and success. > >> > >> Vince who wishes people listened to what Miley sang when she twerked > Robin and > >> remembered that group sex in public was a fun fashion for people now in > their > >> 50s and 60s who are shocked, shocked that someone would act out why > don't we > >> do it in the road. And is in agreement with those who have been > troubled by > >> the Katy Perry comments today. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I found the following story on the NPR iPhone App: > >> > >> Katy Perry On The 180 That Saved Her Career > >> by NPR Staff > >> > >> NPR - October 26, 2013 > >> > >> Katy Perry is among the world's biggest pop artists, but her fans know > her > >> current career is actually a second take. She first tried her hand in > the > >> music world as a teenager, making Christian music as Katy Hudson. She > released > >> an album in 2001, which failed to break through.... > >> > >> > http://www.npr.org/2013/10/26/240760441/katy-perry-returns-with-a-roar?sc=17& > >> f=7 > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1468 > > ****************************** > > > > ------- > > To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. > > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > > ------- > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1476 > ****************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 05:15:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry Well said, Rick! I can remember being afraid to tell people I liked Joni Mitchell and her music, because I was afraid of being put down. Hell, I still don't even admit it to many these days unless I know I'm in good company! And yes, to echo somewhat what Arkay said, I often think that female musicians are looked down on by a majority of men. Some of the exceptions can be found here on the jmdl, and you know, there may be more out there. So, I can understand the sensitivity. However, I've also met Bob Muller and I know he's a good guy. He likes to make jokes, but I don't think any of what he says is mean-spirited. Still, with the written word being what it is, and if you didn't know him, then I can see how it might come across that way. I can also remember being a kid and a teenager and enjoying a lot of pop music, which was never anywhere as deep as Joni's stuff. A lot of it was crap but a lot of it was good, and it was still fun, but in a different way. Even Joni said, "F**k it!Tonight I'm going dancing." More and more, modern music is just another product pushed on us by big business. There's a lot of crap out there (although even crap is subjective) but there's also good stuff. If big business doesn't see a musician or performer as being able to sell a lot of units, then they're not interested in them, so many turn to producing their stuff independently. Katy Perry has put out some good stuff - very catchy pop songs. Her latest album "Prism" has a song she and Jonatha Brooke wrote together, called "Choose your battles." I know that a few of us here are Jonatha fans. I think she has talent and she also seems like a very nice person, if that's worth anything. (Also, for what it's worth, her hair is usually black, sometimes blue and sometimes other colours.) I was pleasantly surprised by how good Miley Cyrus's singing is. I hadn't heard her until she appeared on Saturday Night Live a few weeks ago. It doesn't sound like autotune to me. But I do wish she'd keep her tongue in her mouth, because, ewww! I also think Lady Gaga is a lot of fun, and I love Pink. It is true that more venom is unleashed on female performers than on male ones. You have only to see how much wrath was vent on Miley for her performance on whatever award show that was, while Robin Thicke was barely mentioned. I didn't watch the show, but you'd have to be living under a rock not to hear the nattering about that for weeks. I also agree with Rick that, as we get older, it becomes more difficult to relate to modern music. What we hear as teens is probably what will stick with us for the most part, even if we do enjoy some of the newer stuff. I, for one, will never understand the allure of electronic dance music outside of a dance floor and yet, they have entire festivals and concerts for that stuff. To each his or her own and ain't nothin' wrong with that. >________________________________ > From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley >To: Gerald P Kent >Cc: "Bob.Muller@Fluor.com" ; Dave Blackburn ; Jimmy Stewart ; JMDL JMDL >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:57:26 AM >Subject: Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry > > >Gerald, Vince, Victor and Bob, I've been reading, albeit off and on, this discussion group for 14 years. I've learned more from the folks on this group about music than I could ever learn in any music appreciation class. More about the music and influence of Miss Joni Mitchell than I knew in all the years - pre Internet - when I admired her talent assumably alone. > >Smart, articulate people. Some of whom have sacrificed their time from friends and family to educate the rest of us on others that also find her music inspiring, others who discover her tunings, others who plan gatherings to share our common, sometimes fanatic, romanticism. Some of whom, I've grown to love as friends. > >Okay, that's what I must say. > >Now for the confessional. As I age, I find it more and more difficult to connect with the popular artists of today. I'm not an expert on the music scene of today, but, it seems to me that things have changed. Today's artists are clearly talented in one way or the other, it just seems less home grown than what we learned to love in days past. Maybe more manufactured and subjected to focus groups. > >What I do know is we have to change with the times. We must focus our musical interests to those that turn us on. Be it "throw back" singer songwriters we find on PBS radio or local artists we find in open mike nights and concerts. > >Some of us understand the music industry of today and can appreciate the breakthrough some artists make due to their vocal, musicianship fortitude or songwriting skills. Some of us can't. No harm, no foul. It's all about taste. > >I do think we, as a group, need to respect the opinions of others on both sides of the artistic equation. However, we need to refrain from challenging one another on our opinions. Just state them and let go if you feel so compelled . Some readers and writers did just that on the Perry discussion. > >I must also say we must refrain from sniping the talent or lack thereof of current artists who our younger readers may hold in high esteem. > >A larger part of our mission here is to educate and involve our "youngers" on the music of Joni Mitchell to keep her music alive for the generation(s) to come. We don't fulfill that mission without acceptance and appreciation. > >While I have no regrets. I sign off as your friend, > >CoyoteRick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:56:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Clint Norwood Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1477 Coyote Rick, I think that you make a great point about current "rock" and pop acts. I too don't like a lot of things that I hear now because it seems so manufactured and full of wall to wall synthesizers. I can dance to a Katy Perry song if it is a happy time but I won't think about it after because it does not have depth. Kids like that stuff nowadays because IT IS MARKETED TO THEM NON-STOP. Think about that for a second. If kids heard all kinds of music some would still like Katy, but not everyone. It's almost like that is what they are SUPPOSED to like. They don't really have a choice unless they have music listening parents. But you hit on a couple of things that I think we can say applies to music that is less than inspiring. That was your mention of the corporate "business" of music as opposed to what it was like in 1969. Around the eighties when the music "business" became a serious crush for corporate execs and music video was the rage the level of quality went down because the integrity of the art wasn't there. So many "acts" are just stars to me. Neil Peart said it best, "All this machinery making modern music can still be openhearted. Not so fully charted it's really just a question of your honesty." Can we really believe Christina Aguilera's honesty compared to someone like Patsy Cline or Joni Mitchell? Subjectively I say no. - -Clint On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:09 AM, JMDL Digest wrote: JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 30 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1477 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry [Rick Hobbs-Seeley ] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 00:57:26 -0500 From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley Subject: Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry Gerald, Vince, Victor and Bob, I've been reading, albeit off and on, this discussion group for 14 years. I've learned more from the folks on this group about music than I could ever learn in any music appreciation class. More about the music and influence of Miss Joni Mitchell than I knew in all the years - pre Internet - when I admired her talent assumably alone. Smart, articulate people. Some of whom have sacrificed their time from friends and family to educate the rest of us on others that also find her music inspiring, others who discover her tunings, others who plan gatherings to share our common, sometimes fanatic, romanticism. Some of whom, I've grown to love as friends. Okay, that's what I must say. Now for the confessional. As I age, I find it more and more difficult to connect with the popular artists of today. I'm not an expert on the music scene of today, but, it seems to me that things have changed. Today's artists are clearly talented in one way or the other, it just seems less home grown than what we learned to love in days past. Maybe more manufactured and subjected to focus groups. What I do know is we have to change with the times. We must focus our musical interests to those that turn us on. Be it "throw back" singer songwriters we find on PBS radio or local artists we find in open mike nights and concerts. Some of us understand the music industry of today and can appreciate the breakthrough some artists make due to their vocal, musicianship fortitude or songwriting skills. Some of us can't. No harm, no foul. It's all about taste. I do think we, as a group, need to respect the opinions of others on both sides of the artistic equation. However, we need to refrain from challenging one another on our opinions. Just state them and let go if you feel so compelled . Some readers and writers did just that on the Perry discussion. I must also say we must refrain from sniping the talent or lack thereof of current artists who our younger readers may hold in high esteem. A larger part of our mission here is to educate and involve our "youngers" on the music of Joni Mitchell to keep her music alive for the generation(s) to come. We don't fulfill that mission without acceptance and appreciation. While I have no regrets. I sign off as your friend, CoyoteRick Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2013, at 8:31 PM, Gerald P Kent wrote: Another one of my few responses to the discussion group. As a long time member and one who really appreciates much of Joni's music I once again find it quite appalling at how condescending many of you are. I find it very complimentary to joni that a young person would recognize her and acknowledge her longitivity. Really appalling comments. How disappointing that this group had evolved into this. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > Well, she could release an album all about her hair and call it BLUE. > > Bob > > NP: Arcade Fire, "Flashbulb Eyes" > > > > > From: Dave Blackburn > To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com, > Cc: Jimmy Stewart , JMDL JMDL > Date: 10/29/2013 03:54 PM > Subject: Re: Joni mention by Katy Perry > > > > Maybe she meant crabbier and more reclusive. > >> On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: >> >> That silly quote is about a month old...I laughed when I read it..."I'll > >> probably turn into more of a Joni Mitchell as I get older", which in her > >> pea-brain means she will play the acoustic guitar. As for me, I'm ready > to >> turn into George Clooney. >> >> Bob > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > - ------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1477 ****************************** - ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #418 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe