From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #402 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, October 19 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 402 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: [Shari Eaton ] Moon in the Mirror [Shari Eaton ] Re: Lakota [LC Stanley ] [none] [LC Stanley ] Re: Jaco [dahrius1 ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 09:01:56 -0700 From: Shari Eaton Subject: Re: Well done beating the addiction, Laura. I can only imagine how disruptive a force that can be. I honestly had no idea Jaco had problems like this. His story makes more sense to me now. I personally would never consider blaming Joni for this but someone felt strong enough about it to cast doubt her way so I wanted to know that it couldn't be further from the truth. Nothing worse than having your hero defaced publicly. I'm surprised this Jaco fan didn't know more about the difficulties of his addictions. He also got Jaco's ex-wife's name wrong so he's basically shooting from the hip here, riding an emotionally hollow wave. Lots of Joni, - - Shari > On Oct 18, 2013, at 8:03 AM, LC Stanley wrote: > > Shari wrote: >>> >>> I don't know enough about Jaco to understand exactly what > went on. It's >>> hard to imagine Joni sitting idly by while he ruins his life, > falls deep >>> into depression, alcoholism, and violence without trying to pull > him out of >>> it or helping him somehow. It just doesn't ring true but this is > seemingly >>> what took place. >>> >>> My apologies if this offended some of > you. His death is very sad and if I >>> were a Jaco fan like I'm a Joni fan I > could imagine feeling the pain this >>> man expressed (on amazon ??) > Let's consider this conversation null and void. I was hoping to hear > validation of her innocence but this is really just a dynamic that took > place between the two of them that we can never know about. > > > Hi > Shari, > > I agree. Jaco's illness was progressive and deadly, and the odds were > against him regardless of what anybody did or didn't do. No doubt Joni was > concerned and cared about him as were others who loved him. Unfortunately, > not even his doctors could help him. There was no way for them to even give > him an accurate psychiatric diagnosis while he was drinking and using since > the effects of alcohol and drugs can mimic other mental illnesses. > Alcoholism/addiction is a diagnosis independent of any other condition and > blocks the way for mental health if not treated as such. If > alcoholism/addiction was caused by other mental illnesses as is sometimes the > myth, then people could drink and use normally when medicated for other mental > illnesses, but that just doesn't happen. > > Joni was definitely innocent in > regard to Jaco as was everybody else around him. Nobody causes anybody to be > an alcoholic/addict. It is a physiological abnormality not unlike diabetes or > cancer and similar in its course and fatality. Will power is not the problem > for alcoholic/addicts. There is no willing it away any more than there can be > willing away diabetes or cancer. And it is like an allergy where unless the > person doesn't ingest the substance at all, they'll experience physiological > craving. One can't scale down their use and control it any more than a person > can eat fewer peanuts and have less of an allergic reaction to peanuts. Even > very small amounts of alcohol can set off craving in alcoholics... like small > amounts of an allergen can cause a rash. I speak from personal experience > with 10 years of being alcohol and drug free in recovery. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 07:13:18 -0700 From: Shari Eaton Subject: Moon in the Mirror I've read that there is a recording of this song and that it was the most requested in her early sets. Has anyone here heard it? Lots of Joni, - - Shari ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:59:55 -0700 (PDT) From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: Lakota On Sunday, October 13, 2013 8:16:41 AM, Marianne Rizzo wrote: Thank you simon for the reality check on columbus. >We have to get this holiday *changed, >I tell my students at school, let's come to school Monday and take off Tuesday >and celebrate the Indians (native Americans . . . which is the proper way to >refer to the Indians? I am asking) Hi Marianne, I would say anything that says "American" is not accurate to refer to the people who were here before the Europeans, when there was no America per se. I don't think they have their own term for themselves either as a collective group because they were not one nation but rather were many individuals nations. So maybe just "Nations" would be good or "tribal people?" Let me respond to the rest of your post one little part at at time: > >I think that many of you on the list are natives in your body and/or soul. >Who feels this? >Every time they pave paradise and. . . >"Paving over brave little parks. . . " ( that line breaks me) > >What kinds of experiences have made you feel this? Walls. Walls make me feel this. We put ourselves in cages, and it is normal... houses, businesses, etc. How often are we "outside?" Jericho... I find the word "outside" to be an enigma. Our "civilized" humanity seems to want to be separate from everything else. Maybe separateness has brought us self awareness and the ability to cater toward our own kind, but maybe it has gone too far. The outside was the inside for the tribal people. They were not caged like we are. We are contained, and we call that "civilized?" We can come and go from our containers, our cages, but where are you now? I bet you are in your container, and it is "normal." Going outside has become a luxury rather than the norm. Or when we are outside normally there is work to be done there to tame the environment or tailor it to our idea of order. But this taming of the environment has tipped it toward being a disorder or covering the earth like a blight as Joni puts it in If I Had a Heart. >It would be nice for a few of us to get together and try to sing and play it. >It is so different. >It is in my heart. . . . wow. Next Pazfest or Jonifest or...?!!! >Don't you hear the shrieking in the trees, the whimpering water >No fracking in ny state , no fracking in arkansas, no fracking in china. . No >fracking in Colorado, no fracking in the world. . >(If I sound like a crazy person, it is because it has brought me to this. . . >And perhaps I am) >Smile (I do need some drugs, or maybe just some activism) (or both) Amazing that you can do drugs without being addicted. Mountain top air is mine. >Thank you joni, this song is amazing. > >I am Lakota >Lakota! >Looking at money man >Diggin' the deadly quotas >Out of balance >Out of hand >We want the land! All of Joni is this. Amazing to see her albums as one big story. Shine. >Sun pity me >I am Lakota >Broken >Moon pity me >I am Lakota >Grave >Shadows stretching >Lakota >Oh pity me >I am Lakota >Weak >Grass pity me >I am Lakota >Faithful >Rocks pity me >I am Lakota >Meek >Standing water >Lakota >Oh pity me > >I am Lakota! >Lakota! >Standing on sacred land This part of the song is a beautiful prayer. >Do you hear the whimpering waters >When the tractors come? > YES. >Sun pity me >Mother earth >Mother >Moon pity me >Father sky >Father >Shadows >Stretching on the forest floor >Mother earth >Oh pity me >Father sky >Father >Grass pity me >Mother earth >Mother >Rocks pity me >Father sky >Father >Water >Standing in a wakan manner >Mother earth >Oh pity me AMEN. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:03:18 -0700 (PDT) From: LC Stanley Subject: [none] Shari wrote: >> >> I don't know enough about Jaco to understand exactly what went on. It's >> hard to imagine Joni sitting idly by while he ruins his life, falls deep >> into depression, alcoholism, and violence without trying to pull him out of >> it or helping him somehow. It just doesn't ring true but this is seemingly >> what took place. >> >> My apologies if this offended some of you. His death is very sad and if I >> were a Jaco fan like I'm a Joni fan I could imagine feeling the pain this >> man expressed (on amazon ??) >> >> Let's consider this conversation null and void. I was hoping to hear >> validation of her innocence but this is really just a dynamic that took >> place between the two of them that we can never know about. >> >> Hi Shari, I agree. Jaco's illness was progressive and deadly, and the odds were against him regardless of what anybody did or didn't do. No doubt Joni was concerned and cared about him as were others who loved him. Unfortunately, not even his doctors could help him. There was no way for them to even give him an accurate psychiatric diagnosis while he was drinking and using since the effects of alcohol and drugs can mimic other mental illnesses. Alcoholism/addiction is a diagnosis independent of any other condition and blocks the way for mental health if not treated as such. If alcoholism/addiction was caused by other mental illnesses as is sometimes the myth, then people could drink and use normally when medicated for other mental illnesses, but that just doesn't happen. Joni was definitely innocent in regard to Jaco as was everybody else around him. Nobody causes anybody to be an alcoholic/addict. It is a physiological abnormality not unlike diabetes or cancer and similar in its course and fatality. Will power is not the problem for alcoholic/addicts. There is no willing it away any more than there can be willing away diabetes or cancer. And it is like an allergy where unless the person doesn't ingest the substance at all, they'll experience physiological craving. One can't scale down their use and control it any more than a person can eat fewer peanuts and have less of an allergic reaction to peanuts. Even very small amounts of alcohol can set off craving in alcoholics... like small amounts of an allergen can cause a rash. I speak from personal experience with 10 years of being alcohol and drug free in recovery. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 12:37:07 -0500 From: dahrius1 Subject: Re: Jaco If it helps to understand: While many people were clearly angry that a bouncer beat him to death, there was not the concentrated effort to keep him in jail that you would have thought. Many friends simply wondered how he might eventually self destruct. Its hard to save anyone though we do try. Jack was/is the best bassist i have ever heard. Sometimes genius is accompanied by things that are less than positive. Clinton Norwood LC Stanley wrote: >Shari wrote: >>> >>> I don't know enough about Jaco to understand exactly what >went on. It's >>> hard to imagine Joni sitting idly by while he ruins his life, >falls deep >>> into depression, alcoholism, and violence without trying to pull >him out of >>> it or helping him somehow. It just doesn't ring true but this is >seemingly >>> what took place. >>> >>> My apologies if this offended some of >you. His death is very sad and if I >>> were a Jaco fan like I'm a Joni fan I >could imagine feeling the pain this >>> man expressed (on amazon ??) >>> >>> >Let's consider this conversation null and void. I was hoping to hear >>> >validation of her innocence but this is really just a dynamic that took >>> >place between the two of them that we can never know about. >>> >>> > > >Hi >Shari, > >I agree. Jaco's illness was progressive and deadly, and the odds were >against him regardless of what anybody did or didn't do. No doubt Joni was >concerned and cared about him as were others who loved him. Unfortunately, >not even his doctors could help him. There was no way for them to even give >him an accurate psychiatric diagnosis while he was drinking and using since >the effects of alcohol and drugs can mimic other mental illnesses. >Alcoholism/addiction is a diagnosis independent of any other condition and >blocks the way for mental health if not treated as such. If >alcoholism/addiction was caused by other mental illnesses as is sometimes the >myth, then people could drink and use normally when medicated for other mental >illnesses, but that just doesn't happen. > >Joni was definitely innocent in >regard to Jaco as was everybody else around him. Nobody causes anybody to be >an alcoholic/addict. It is a physiological abnormality not unlike diabetes or >cancer and similar in its course and fatality. Will power is not the problem >for alcoholic/addicts. There is no willing it away any more than there can be >willing away diabetes or cancer. And it is like an allergy where unless the >person doesn't ingest the substance at all, they'll experience physiological >craving. One can't scale down their use and control it any more than a person >can eat fewer peanuts and have less of an allergic reaction to peanuts. Even >very small amounts of alcohol can set off craving in alcoholics... like small >amounts of an allergen can cause a rash. I speak from personal experience >with 10 years of being alcohol and drug free in recovery. > >Love, >Laura ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #402 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe