From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #332 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, August 28 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 332 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Minor chords [Anita ] Re: Minor chords [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Minor chords [Dave Blackburn ] Minor chords, etc. [Betsy Blue ] Re: Minor chords [jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com] RE: Minor chords ["Susan E. McNamara" ] Laura Allan's influence [Steve Dulson ] Minor chords [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Minor chords [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Appropriation of oppressed cultures [Jack Merkel ] Re: Minor chords [Corey Blake ] Re: Minor chords [Catherine McKay ] Re: Minor chords ["Mark" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 15:59:35 +0100 From: Anita Subject: Re: Minor chords This is another of those things that makes this list so great. Getting introduced to Laura Allen one day and then some sound complex musical theory made simple the next. Absolutely brilliant. Thanks, Dave. Anita On 27 Aug 2013, at 15:40, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Jim, and others, comment on Joni's use of minor chords from time to time and the music teacher in me goes "ooh, ooh, ooh!" If I may... > > What she often employed, like Lennon and McCartney and numerous other songsmiths is the use of the Parallel Minor in the context of a major key song. For example a song in the key of E using chords native (diatonic) to E major could employ an Eminor chord (the parallel minor means the root note is the same but the tonality changes.) This creates a pronounced mood shift. The ear accepts the transition readily as the tonic note has not changed: only the tonality or mood. I Had a King is a good example, as is My Old Man ("He's a dancer in the DA-RK.") The Dawntreader does it the other way - going to the parallel major chord (D) in a song that establishes itself in a minor key (Dmin). McCartney's Michelle and Penny Lane are some more fine examples of the technique. > > Joni innately understood the emotional pull of certain chords and voicings, for which she is duly praised, and she employed interesting harmony with great taste as she does most things. As we know, her theory knowledge was and maybe still is pretty scant but her ear led her to use techniques like Parallel Minor/Parallel Major interchange because they are effective. > > She does similar things with rhythm, introducing odd meter bars in the context of even meter compositions, and uneven phrase lengths, but that topic is for another post! > > Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 15:43:27 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Minor chords > Passion Play "like washing on a LINE" borrowing the minor V chord from Dminor Correction: it's actually on the word TREMBLING where the borrowed chord falls. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 10:35:04 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Minor chords Ha, Corey! Be careful what you wish for! If there are others that might like to read about this stuff I'd be glad to write about some facets of JM's music pertaining to theory and method, and make sure it doesn't get too esoteric. As Jim said there is the Lloyd Whitesell book that gets a bit too exhaustive even for the keen student. Joni's music is often an odd mix of pedestrian and highly original, and the fact that she may not know which was which makes it all the more interesting. I believe she trusted her "feelers" so much that no other guidelines were needed or heeded. Dave On Aug 27, 2013, at 9:37 AM, Corey Blake wrote: > Dave, I love this stuff. I'd love to see an ongoing or recurring series of posts that looks at the music theory behind the magic of Joni's music. > > -Corey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 10:55:02 -0700 From: Betsy Blue Subject: Minor chords, etc. Maybe Dave should write a book that is more accessible for really interested fans and non-music majors. Here's an interesting video analysis of The Hissing of Summer Lawns (song) lyrics. Bit.ly/1aMK3Ey I would love to see more of these videos. Lyrical analysis is fine in text format, but it can be difficult for non-musicians to understand. - -Betsy > Ha, Corey! Be careful what you wish for! > > If there are others that might like to read about this stuff I'd be glad to write about some facets of JM's music pertaining to theory and method, and make sure it doesn't get too esoteric. As Jim said there is the Lloyd Whitesell book that gets a bit too exhaustive even for the keen student. Joni's music is often an odd mix of pedestrian and highly original, and the fact that she may not know which was which makes it all the more interesting. I believe she trusted her "feelers" so much that no other guidelines were needed or heeded. > > Dave > > > On Aug 27, 2013, at 9:37 AM, Corey Blake wrote: > > > Dave, I love this stuff. I'd love to see an ongoing or recurring series of posts that looks at the music theory behind the magic of Joni's music. > > > > -Corey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 13:22:19 -0400 From: jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: Re: Minor chords There is a whole book about this. Bob, what is the title? Jim L On Aug 27, 2013, at 12:37 PM, Corey Blake wrote: > Dave, I love this stuff. I'd love to see an ongoing or recurring series of posts that looks at the music theory behind the magic of Joni's music. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:59:33 +0000 From: "Susan E. McNamara" Subject: RE: Minor chords Thanks Professor Dave. Can't wait to see you in NO so we can talk about this stuff again. I love what you say here about her rhythm. You first are daunted by the tunings and the phrasing but you really don't know what you are getting into until you try to play Joni with a band. As long as I live I will love our drummer for "getting it" when the band threw me a bone and said I could play "Help Me". If it wasn't for her exceptional talent we would have been lost. Maybe that's why Joni often fell for drummers!! :-) Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Dave Blackburn Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:41 AM To: Steve Dulson Cc: joni-digest@smoe.org; joni@smoe.org; jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: Minor chords Jim, and others, comment on Joni's use of minor chords from time to time and the music teacher in me goes "ooh, ooh, ooh!" If I may... What she often employed, like Lennon and McCartney and numerous other songsmiths is the use of the Parallel Minor in the context of a major key song. For example a song in the key of E using chords native (diatonic) to E major could employ an Eminor chord (the parallel minor means the root note is the same but the tonality changes.) This creates a pronounced mood shift. The ear accepts the transition readily as the tonic note has not changed: only the tonality or mood. I Had a King is a good example, as is My Old Man ("He's a dancer in the DA-RK.") The Dawntreader does it the other way - going to the parallel major chord (D) in a song that establishes itself in a minor key (Dmin). McCartney's Michelle and Penny Lane are some more fine examples of the technique. Joni innately understood the emotional pull of certain chords and voicings, for which she is duly praised, and she employed interesting harmony with great taste as she does most things. As we know, her theory knowledge was and maybe still is pretty scant but her ear led her to use techniques like Parallel Minor/Parallel Major interchange because they are effective. She does similar things with rhythm, introducing odd meter bars in the context of even meter compositions, and uneven phrase lengths, but that topic is for another post! Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 10:11:10 -0400 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Laura Allan's influence Jim wrote: > I hear Laura Allan in Joni's "I Had A King" and "Eastern Rain". The way she slipped into those freaky minor chords. But Joni wrote those WAY before she met Laura... *************************************************** Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA FAR-West (Folk Alliance Region - West) tinkersown@ca.rr.com www.far-west.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 07:40:50 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Minor chords Jim, and others, comment on Joni's use of minor chords from time to time and the music teacher in me goes "ooh, ooh, ooh!" If I may... What she often employed, like Lennon and McCartney and numerous other songsmiths is the use of the Parallel Minor in the context of a major key song. For example a song in the key of E using chords native (diatonic) to E major could employ an Eminor chord (the parallel minor means the root note is the same but the tonality changes.) This creates a pronounced mood shift. The ear accepts the transition readily as the tonic note has not changed: only the tonality or mood. I Had a King is a good example, as is My Old Man ("He's a dancer in the DA-RK.") The Dawntreader does it the other way - going to the parallel major chord (D) in a song that establishes itself in a minor key (Dmin). McCartney's Michelle and Penny Lane are some more fine examples of the technique. Joni innately understood the emotional pull of certain chords and voicings, for which she is duly praised, and she employed interesting harmony with great taste as she does most things. As we know, her theory knowledge was and maybe still is pretty scant but her ear led her to use techniques like Parallel Minor/Parallel Major interchange because they are effective. She does similar things with rhythm, introducing odd meter bars in the context of even meter compositions, and uneven phrase lengths, but that topic is for another post! Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 15:25:40 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Minor chords Well, since that went over okay, here are some more moments employing chords from the parallel minor/major chord scales ; ideal for your next stump the dinner guests game and sure to result in their prior commitments when you invite them over again: Passion Play "like washing on a LINE" borrowing the minor V chord from Dminor Yvette in English "little bit of instant BLISS" using the bVI chord from Dbminor and moving to the VI chord of Db major., Court and Spark - moves throughout between E major and E minor tonalities. Blue -last chord unexpectedly converts the "expected" Bminor into a B7. Called a Picardie third in traditional music theory. Cotton Avenue - the whole intro is in minor and moves to parallel major when the lyric begins, And many more. These are off the top of my head. Stop me when/if this gets tiresome :-) Dave On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Ha, Corey! Be careful what you wish for! > > If there are others that might like to read about this stuff I'd be glad to write about some facets of JM's music pertaining to theory and method, and make sure it doesn't get too esoteric. As Jim said there is the Lloyd Whitesell book that gets a bit too exhaustive even for the keen student. Joni's music is often an odd mix of pedestrian and highly original, and the fact that she may not know which was which makes it all the more interesting. I believe she trusted her "feelers" so much that no other guidelines were needed or heeded. > > Dave > > > On Aug 27, 2013, at 9:37 AM, Corey Blake wrote: > >> Dave, I love this stuff. I'd love to see an ongoing or recurring series of posts that looks at the music theory behind the magic of Joni's music. >> >> -Corey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 12:36:53 -0500 From: Jack Merkel Subject: Re: Appropriation of oppressed cultures I feel oppressed just seeing Joni and Miley mentioned in the same sentence. Jack Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2013, at 10:00 PM, Betsy Blue wrote: > Here's an assignment for you: > > Miley Cyrus and Joni Mitchell have both appropriated music and fashion from > other cultures. Compare and contrast. Please assume talent and vulgarity > are irrelevant. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 09:37:22 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: Minor chords Dave, I love this stuff. I'd love to see an ongoing or recurring series of posts that looks at the music theory behind the magic of Joni's music. - -Corey On Aug 27, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Jim, and others, comment on Joni's use of minor chords from time to time and the music teacher in me goes "ooh, ooh, ooh!" If I may... > > What she often employed, like Lennon and McCartney and numerous other songsmiths is the use of the Parallel Minor in the context of a major key song. For example a song in the key of E using chords native (diatonic) to E major could employ an Eminor chord (the parallel minor means the root note is the same but the tonality changes.) This creates a pronounced mood shift. The ear accepts the transition readily as the tonic note has not changed: only the tonality or mood. I Had a King is a good example, as is My Old Man ("He's a dancer in the DA-RK.") The Dawntreader does it the other way - going to the parallel major chord (D) in a song that establishes itself in a minor key (Dmin). McCartney's Michelle and Penny Lane are some more fine examples of the technique. > > Joni innately understood the emotional pull of certain chords and voicings, for which she is duly praised, and she employed interesting harmony with great taste as she does most things. As we know, her theory knowledge was and maybe still is pretty scant but her ear led her to use techniques like Parallel Minor/Parallel Major interchange because they are effective. > > She does similar things with rhythm, introducing odd meter bars in the context of even meter compositions, and uneven phrase lengths, but that topic is for another post! > > Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 15:07:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Minor chords I'd love to hear it. Hell, I might even understand some of it. I bought the Lloyd Whitsell book ages ago and have yet to read it. I have to be in the mood, and there are so many books i have to catch up on. >________________________________ > From: Dave Blackburn >To: Corey Blake >Cc: Steve Dulson ; "joni-digest@smoe.org" ; "joni@smoe.org" ; "jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com" >Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:35:04 PM >Subject: Re: Minor chords > > >Ha, Corey! Be careful what you wish for! > >If there are others that might like to read about this stuff I'd be glad to write about some facets of JM's music pertaining to theory and method, and make sure it doesn't get too esoteric. As Jim said there is the Lloyd Whitesell book that gets a bit too exhaustive even for the keen student. Joni's music is often an odd mix of pedestrian and highly original, and the fact that she may not know which was which makes it all the more interesting. I believe she trusted her "feelers" so much that no other guidelines were needed or heeded. > >Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 18:30:47 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Minor chords Not being a musician, all of this is not easy for me to grasp. But I think I was able to understand enough to instinctively know that you meant the next phrase of this song in your discussion. More, I say. More, please. Mark in Seattle - -----Original Message----- From: Dave Blackburn Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 3:43 PM To: Dave Blackburn Cc: Corey Blake ; Steve Dulson ; joni-digest@smoe.org ; joni@smoe.org ; jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: Re: Minor chords > Passion Play "like washing on a LINE" borrowing the minor V chord from > Dminor Correction: it's actually on the word TREMBLING where the borrowed chord falls. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #332 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe