From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #327 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, August 24 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 327 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Lori Renee Fye ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Lori Renee Fye ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] Re: Attention Joni chronology geeks - Joni and the dulcimer [shadows and ] Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail [Rick Hobbs-See] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Victor Johnson ] Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 [Clint Norwood ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Vince Lavieri ] Joni on Transgender Folk [Rick Hobbs-Seeley ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Victor Johnson ] Attention Joni chronology geeks - Joni and the dulcimer [Steve Dulson ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Lori Renee Fye ] RE: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 Chelsea Puns [Mary Morris ] Re: Attention Joni chronology geeks - Joni and the dulcimer [Shari Eaton ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 08:30:44 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk I posted a sort of "inside joke" to Facebook yesterday regarding not being able to get an edited version of Chelsea Morning out of my head, and thanked "certain JMDL people." I sort of hesitated to post that, and later regretted it. I've since deleted that post. We have to remember that we don't know everyone who subscribes to this list. There are lurkers who have never introduced themselves, and there may be brand new subscribers too. It's possible that a subscriber who is transgendered or who is having a personal struggle with a decision regarding changing his or her gender might be truly offended by people on this list making light of Chelsea Manning's decision, regardless that no one intended to be mean-spirited about it. While I don't think we have to absolutely politically correct about every single thing, it's better to be a bit cautious when it comes to some matters. This is one of those matters. Lori On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Anita G wrote: > As someone who added to the parody, I would like to apologise if I > offended or upset anyone transgendered. This would never be my > intention. The lines I added to the song that followed on from Paz's > were kicking at the Feds, who he described as 'turds'. I am sorry if > this wasn't clear, > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 17:09:00 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk Like you, Victor, I haven't seen any hate whatsoever directed at Chelsea Manning, and, in fact, feel the reverse is true, but I think it's always worth apologising if something I have said or done has hurt somebody. I don't want to hurt people. Rick said he felt hurt. I know you will know that Right Speech is a portion of the Buddhist Eightfold Path, so an apology is called for. Anita On 24/08/2013, Victor Johnson wrote: > As I said already, no one has directed any hate whatsoever at Chelsea > Manning so there is nothing to apologize for. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:22:11 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk That should have said, "I *wouldn't* say ..." On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Lori Renee Fye wrote: > I would say that I saw anything resembling "hate" here, but perhaps > insensitivity ... unintentional, really, but we're smart people and we > usually think ahead. > > Lori > > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Anita G wrote: > >> Like you, Victor, I haven't seen any hate whatsoever directed at >> Chelsea Manning, and, in fact, feel the reverse is true, but I think >> it's always worth apologising if something I have said or done has >> hurt somebody. I don't want to hurt people. Rick said he felt hurt. I >> know you will know that Right Speech is a portion of the Buddhist >> Eightfold Path, so an apology is called for. >> Anita >> >> >> On 24/08/2013, Victor Johnson wrote: >> > As I said already, no one has directed any hate whatsoever at Chelsea >> > Manning so there is nothing to apologize for. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 16:03:17 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk I have apologised if I have caused any offence, but I have to say that the parody was aimed clearly and squarely at those denying treatment - not aimed at Chelsea Manning at all. It's clear that these lines have upset people, but from where I sit, the point of the parody written here has been completely missed. As a lesbian who has had bricks through my window, has been viciously attacked when I left a club and had plenty of verbal abuse from time to time, I do hope I have a little understanding of the suffering inherent in living life as part of a minority. I also hope I will be able to discern when I read things who is on my side and who isn't. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 11:15:22 -0700 From: shadows and light Subject: Re: Attention Joni chronology geeks - Joni and the dulcimer And then there's what Estra Estella Berosini wrote: "When people listen to Joni Mitchell's "Blue" album, they think they're listening to quintessential Joni. What people do not realize is that Joni was emulating our good friend, Laura Allen. Joni wrote those amazing words, but they were laid upon Laura Allen's style fingerprint. Laura not only made the dulcimer Joni plays on this album, but Laura taught Joni how to play it in the style Laura had developed. From that moment onward, Laura graciously smiled at all comparisons made of her to Joni, but, it was the other way around. Joni never evaded this fact, and often spoke of Laura Allen, giving credit where credit is due, but, Joni's fans didn't want to hear that. When I first met Laura at Joni's house, in 1970, it was obvious, and Joni made it clear, who originated that particular song writing style. Even the song, Blue, which Joni wrote on the piano, is written in Laura Allen's distinctive style. RIP Laura Allen, you were so original, prolific, and endearing." Lesli On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Steve Dulson wrote: > Hello all! > > I have some questions about Joni chronology, particularly as it > pertains to her dulcimer playing. Joellen Lapidus, who built Joni's > dulcimers (the ones she is pictured with in various photos) says > in the Misses songbook that she met Joni at the 1967 Big Sur Folk > Festival. However, in an article in Dulcimer Players News the > unnamed author (MUST be Lapidus) says "When I met Joni Mitchell at > the Big Sur Folk Festival of 1968 and sold her the Wild Columbine > Dulcimer...(which)... She took...with her to Europe that summer, > and wrote four dulcimer songs over there." > > Hmm...Joni's trip to Europe, including the meeting on Crete with > Cary Raditz was in 1970. There is picture of Cary, Joni and the > dulcimer in Girls Like Us. I always figured Joni took the dulcimer > on that trip because it was smaller, lighter and easier to schlep > around than a guitar. > > Sheila Weller says the first meeting with Lapidus was in '68. I > think this is more likely. Joni was in England in summer '67, and > I really don't think she attended the BSFF that year. > > All this is relevant to me because I have been in correspondence > with an old acquaintance, who writes: > > "I do indeed still own the dulcimer. It has hardly been used all > these years (it needs new strings) but I still think it is a beautiful > instrument. My parents bought it for my birthday (I wanted a guitar). > My step-cousin, David Zeitlin, worked at McCabeb s (I think he may > have been a part ownerb¬ sure about that) and he had just gotten > the dulcimer back from Joni Mitchell who had bought it for herself. > I am not sure how long she had it but when someone gave her a gift of > another dulcimer, she brought it back and David passed it on to my > parents at a bargain price." > > The photo she took shows a very bare-bones dulcimer, with friction > tuning pegs (eek!) and no "extra" 6 1/2 fret. Maybe a McSpadden? > I've asked her for the maker's name and the year she acquired it. > > I'm wondering if Joni bought/rented it from McCabes (in Santa > Monica) to get some dulcimer time in before her Lapidus dulcimer > was ready...if she didn't take the Wild Columbine instrument home > from Big Sur...or maybe she'd been messing around with a dulcimer > before she met Lapidus? > > Any input welcomed! > > *************************************************** > Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA > FAR-West (Folk Alliance Region - West) > tinkersown@ca.rr.com www.far-west.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 01:39:51 -0700 From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley Subject: Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric take note. I doubt she would support your comment. Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. With sad regrets, Coyote Rick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Publication: The Globe and Mail Date: 2013.8.15 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:14:26 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk As someone who added to the parody, I would like to apologise if I offended or upset anyone transgendered. This would never be my intention. The lines I added to the song that followed on from Paz's were kicking at the Feds, who he described as 'turds'. I am sorry if this wasn't clear, Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 12:20:10 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk I apologize if anyone's feelings were hurt. Victor, ready to move on On Saturday, August 24, 2013, Anita G wrote: > Like you, Victor, I haven't seen any hate whatsoever directed at > Chelsea Manning, and, in fact, feel the reverse is true, but I think > it's always worth apologising if something I have said or done has > hurt somebody. I don't want to hurt people. Rick said he felt hurt. I > know you will know that Right Speech is a portion of the Buddhist > Eightfold Path, so an apology is called for. > Anita > > > On 24/08/2013, Victor Johnson > > wrote: > > As I said already, no one has directed any hate whatsoever at Chelsea > > Manning so there is nothing to apologize for. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 07:58:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Clint Norwood Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 Just for my own two cents I think that we completely destroy our own ability to look at and laugh at the world (a complete necessity if you ask me) when we misconstrue EVERY joke about humanity. C'mon folks, the world, to a large extent, is an utterly ridiculous farce rife with situations and things that can (and must) be parodied. Now let's get a grip. I don't think there are too many people who like Joni Mitchell and would make fun of the transgendered in a mean spirited way. Let's be honest about the difference between real harmful prejudice and light joking that prevents us from taking ourselves too seriously. If we joke about these situations its okay. When we try to physically harm, disenfranchise or in any way try to take away someone's liberty and rights IT IS NOT OKAY. In my graduate English classes there are all kinds of white people that are ridiculously sensitive to the feelings of black people, would never say anything about black people other than, "they are always treated like second-class citizens" and would never admit to ANY racism or stereotypical feelings. This completely creates an environment where people that "don't have a racist bone in my body" can't have an honest discussion about race, would get angry at me for admitting my own racism (which I don't celebrate) yet not see the irony when they would NEVER live in a black neighborhood like mine. Those are the differences. - -Clint Norwood (human being) ________________________________ From: JMDL Digest To: joni-digest@smoe.org Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 9:14 AM Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 JMDL Digest Saturday, August 24 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1192 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Victor Johnson ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Lori Renee Fye ] Joni on Transgender Folk [Rick Hobbs-Seeley ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail [Rick Hobbs-See] Mary's Joke NJC [kbhla@fastmail.fm] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 08:15:33 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk With all due respect, I completely disagree. There was nothing hurtful said in any of those posts, nothing demeaning said towards transgender people, period. It's called parody which involves having a sense of humor. If you didn't find it funny that's perfectly okay but I think it's sad that an attempt at poking fun into something that is very much in the public eye (and therefore completely fair game for parody) has to be misconstrued into something hateful. I have transgendered friends as well but that's not really the issue. The point it is, if you're looking for "hate" there was none, end of story. You're directing your anger to the wrong place. Victor On Saturday, August 24, 2013, Lori Renee Fye wrote: > You're right, Rick. Thanks for an excellent post. > > I initially found the Chelsea Morning/Chelsea Manning title comparison > funny, but then it made me uncomfortable. I am an ally of transgendered > people, have several transgendered people for friends, and it really wasn't > okay. > > Lori - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 03:04:26 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk You're right, Rick. Thanks for an excellent post. I initially found the Chelsea Morning/Chelsea Manning title comparison funny, but then it made me uncomfortable. I am an ally of transgendered people, have several transgendered people for friends, and it really wasn't okay. Lori - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 01:50:03 -0700 From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley Subject: Joni on Transgender Folk I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric realize that's nconsistent with our community. I confidently doubt JM would support your comment. Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. With sad regrets, Coyote Rick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Publication: The Globe and Mail Date: 2013.8.15 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:14:26 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk As someone who added to the parody, I would like to apologise if I offended or upset anyone transgendered. This would never be my intention. The lines I added to the song that followed on from Paz's were kicking at the Feds, who he described as 'turds'. I am sorry if this wasn't clear, Anita - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 01:39:51 -0700 From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley Subject: Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric take note. I doubt she would support your comment. Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. With sad regrets, Coyote Rick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Publication: The Globe and Mail Date: 2013.8.15 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 11:46:22 -0700 From: kbhla@fastmail.fm Subject: Mary's Joke NJC No worries, Mary! I had a chuckle from Bob's post about that passionate love letter long ago. It happens. I once did the opposite - sending a late night email to a group of attorneys I was working with titled "NJC" ;-) Kakki - ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 ****************************** - ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:37:17 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk Rick you are exactly right. Thanks for posting what was my feelings, you posted for me as well. I ceased posting on the list two summers ago when on the same weekend Anders Brevik slaughtered 70 +- in Norway and Amy Winehouse died. I took issue with calling Winehouse's death a "tragedy" when the blood of so many teens were freshly splashed all over that island. Winehouse's death was sad but the tragedy was the murder of all those youth in a hate crime. I never felt that, by way of comparison, that Joplin's death was a tragedy. It saddened me then and sometimes acutely even now. But the tragedies of 1970 were the deaths in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Kent State. Two years ago one of our most active and loved posters, Jerry Notaro, ceased to post after our exchange on the nature of tragedy, in the aftermath of the 2011 events. I feel badly about that. Others have ceased to communicate with me here and on Facebook. And that is sad for me personally but no big deal in their and the JMDL's lives. Since you stated it so well, you may get less grief than I did; you are also a nicer, less contentious person than I, so thus a flame war may not erupt in this regards. But thanks for calling it out. No one woke up as Chelsea Manning. For Bradley Manning this has been a tortured part of his existence especially as he has been held in barely humane conditions in confinement these last years, and perhaps is a part of his personal pain that may play a role in his isolation and actions that others uses to put her in a situation where she has a 35 year sentence laid on her. It may be in the news but I think it is hurtful to her to subject her to parody after the cost in her life on top of her tortured pain, which is our window into the soul of the T people of our LGBT sisters and brothers. And there is no joy or humor in the Chelesa Manning story as she stands sentenced to 35 years. She is being ridiculed by the Limbaughs and Hannitys. This community should be standing on the side of those who suffer. I retreat to my JMDL silence in that I know that my inability to say things well and my generally obnoxious style cause hurt to others and what I say. Thanks Coyote Rick for speaking out and with eloquence. Vince Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2013, at 4:50 AM, Rick Hobbs-Seeley wrote: > I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. > > What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. > > I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric realize that's nconsistent with our community. I confidently doubt JM would support your comment. > > Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. > > With sad regrets, > > Coyote Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: > > Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail > Publication: The Globe and Mail > Date: 2013.8.15 > > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 01:50:03 -0700 From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley Subject: Joni on Transgender Folk I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric realize that's nconsistent with our community. I confidently doubt JM would support your comment. Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. With sad regrets, Coyote Rick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Publication: The Globe and Mail Date: 2013.8.15 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 11:17:20 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk As I said already, no one has directed any hate whatsoever at Chelsea Manning so there is nothing to apologize for. Some people enjoy parody, some people don't. That is all this was, a parody. Stop reading into it. Stop projecting things into it that are not there. Stop it, please. The Dalai Lama has spoken many times about the importance of laughter. He can even laugh at the absurdity of his own situation, living in exile from his home, Tibet. If we can't laugh at the absurdities, trials, and hardships in life then the world is a very sad place indeed. Stop creating drama and take a moment to reflect on yourself before you start accusing people of hateful speech. Victor On Saturday, August 24, 2013, Anita G wrote: > I have apologised if I have caused any offence, but I have to say that > the parody was aimed clearly and squarely at those denying treatment - > not aimed at Chelsea Manning at all. > > It's clear that these lines have upset people, but from where I sit, > the point of the parody written here has been completely missed. > > As a lesbian who has had bricks through my window, has been viciously > attacked when I left a club and had plenty of verbal abuse from time > to time, I do hope I have a little understanding of the suffering > inherent in living life as part of a minority. I also hope I will be > able to discern when I read things who is on my side and who isn't. > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 12:27:45 -0400 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Attention Joni chronology geeks - Joni and the dulcimer Hello all! I have some questions about Joni chronology, particularly as it pertains to her dulcimer playing. Joellen Lapidus, who built Joni's dulcimers (the ones she is pictured with in various photos) says in the Misses songbook that she met Joni at the 1967 Big Sur Folk Festival. However, in an article in Dulcimer Players News the unnamed author (MUST be Lapidus) says "When I met Joni Mitchell at the Big Sur Folk Festival of 1968 and sold her the Wild Columbine Dulcimer...(which)... She took...with her to Europe that summer, and wrote four dulcimer songs over there." Hmm...Joni's trip to Europe, including the meeting on Crete with Cary Raditz was in 1970. There is picture of Cary, Joni and the dulcimer in Girls Like Us. I always figured Joni took the dulcimer on that trip because it was smaller, lighter and easier to schlep around than a guitar. Sheila Weller says the first meeting with Lapidus was in '68. I think this is more likely. Joni was in England in summer '67, and I really don't think she attended the BSFF that year. All this is relevant to me because I have been in correspondence with an old acquaintance, who writes: "I do indeed still own the dulcimer. It has hardly been used all these years (it needs new strings) but I still think it is a beautiful instrument. My parents bought it for my birthday (I wanted a guitar). My step-cousin, David Zeitlin, worked at McCabebs (I think he may have been a part ownerb¬ sure about that) and he had just gotten the dulcimer back from Joni Mitchell who had bought it for herself. I am not sure how long she had it but when someone gave her a gift of another dulcimer, she brought it back and David passed it on to my parents at a bargain price." The photo she took shows a very bare-bones dulcimer, with friction tuning pegs (eek!) and no "extra" 6 1/2 fret. Maybe a McSpadden? I've asked her for the maker's name and the year she acquired it. I'm wondering if Joni bought/rented it from McCabes (in Santa Monica) to get some dulcimer time in before her Lapidus dulcimer was ready...if she didn't take the Wild Columbine instrument home from Big Sur...or maybe she'd been messing around with a dulcimer before she met Lapidus? Any input welcomed! *************************************************** Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA FAR-West (Folk Alliance Region - West) tinkersown@ca.rr.com www.far-west.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 19:45:22 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Attention Joni chronology geeks - Joni and the dulcimer Wow, that's a fantastic piece of insider knowledge. Thanks for sharing that. I didn't know anything at all about Joni's history with the dulcimer. After seeing Joni play it in 1970, my dear lovely Dad, who has been gone over 30 years now, made me my very own dulcimer step by step from a book called 'Make an Appalachian Mountain Dulcimer'. I still treasure it and it sits on my wall and I play some Joni tunes every now and then. I wonder, are there any links to Laura, Lesli? Anita On 24/08/2013, shadows and light wrote: > And then there's what Estra Estella Berosini wrote: "When people listen to > Joni Mitchell's "Blue" album, they think they're listening to > quintessential Joni. What people do not realize is that Joni was emulating > our good friend, Laura Allen. Joni wrote those amazing words, but they were > laid upon Laura Allen's style fingerprint. Laura not only made the dulcimer > Joni plays on this album, but Laura taught Joni how to play it in the style > Laura had developed. From that moment onward, Laura graciously smiled at > all comparisons made of her to Joni, but, it was the other way around. Joni > never evaded this fact, and often spoke of Laura Allen, giving credit where > credit is due, but, Joni's fans didn't want to hear that. When I first met > Laura at Joni's house, in 1970, it was obvious, and Joni made it clear, who > originated that particular song writing style. Even the song, Blue, which > Joni wrote on the piano, is written in Laura Allen's distinctive style. RIP > Laura Allen, you were so original, prolific, and endearing." > > > Lesli > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Steve Dulson wrote: > >> Hello all! >> >> I have some questions about Joni chronology, particularly as it >> pertains to her dulcimer playing. Joellen Lapidus, who built Joni's >> dulcimers (the ones she is pictured with in various photos) says >> in the Misses songbook that she met Joni at the 1967 Big Sur Folk >> Festival. However, in an article in Dulcimer Players News the >> unnamed author (MUST be Lapidus) says "When I met Joni Mitchell at >> the Big Sur Folk Festival of 1968 and sold her the Wild Columbine >> Dulcimer...(which)... She took...with her to Europe that summer, >> and wrote four dulcimer songs over there." >> >> Hmm...Joni's trip to Europe, including the meeting on Crete with >> Cary Raditz was in 1970. There is picture of Cary, Joni and the >> dulcimer in Girls Like Us. I always figured Joni took the dulcimer >> on that trip because it was smaller, lighter and easier to schlep >> around than a guitar. >> >> Sheila Weller says the first meeting with Lapidus was in '68. I >> think this is more likely. Joni was in England in summer '67, and >> I really don't think she attended the BSFF that year. >> >> All this is relevant to me because I have been in correspondence >> with an old acquaintance, who writes: >> >> "I do indeed still own the dulcimer. It has hardly been used all >> these years (it needs new strings) but I still think it is a beautiful >> instrument. My parents bought it for my birthday (I wanted a guitar). >> My step-cousin, David Zeitlin, worked at McCabeb s (I think he may >> have been a part ownerb¬ sure about that) and he had just gotten >> the dulcimer back from Joni Mitchell who had bought it for herself. >> I am not sure how long she had it but when someone gave her a gift of >> another dulcimer, she brought it back and David passed it on to my >> parents at a bargain price." >> >> The photo she took shows a very bare-bones dulcimer, with friction >> tuning pegs (eek!) and no "extra" 6 1/2 fret. Maybe a McSpadden? >> I've asked her for the maker's name and the year she acquired it. >> >> I'm wondering if Joni bought/rented it from McCabes (in Santa >> Monica) to get some dulcimer time in before her Lapidus dulcimer >> was ready...if she didn't take the Wild Columbine instrument home >> from Big Sur...or maybe she'd been messing around with a dulcimer >> before she met Lapidus? >> >> Any input welcomed! >> >> *************************************************** >> Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA >> FAR-West (Folk Alliance Region - West) >> tinkersown@ca.rr.com www.far-west.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:57:36 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Dear Rick- I am sorry if my post offended you or anyone else on the list. As you probably know it was not my intention to offend or hurt anyone. As you probably also know I would come to the defense of anyone who is being discriminated against or bullied etc. It just so happened that I had a knee jerk reaction to what I had just heard on the news and to Victor's "hook in the water" and I took the bait. I had just seen that Chelsea had been sentenced and that they were going to deny her medicine that could help her which offends me. Regardless of how you may feel about what she did politically I still support her rights to be who she wants to be and that is what my part of the parody was about. Stuff like this is why we probably don't see more posts from everyone and the list is silent most of the time. I have to admit to being totally taken aback and surprised that you would even think that I meant anyone any harm other than to all out the feds which is daily routine in most of our lives lately. Once again I am sorry and also sorry we won't see you in New Orleans in October and I could hug your neck and you could have the opportunity to kick my ass! Love Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com On Aug 24, 2013, at 3:39 AM, Rick Hobbs-Seeley wrote: I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric take note. I doubt she would support your comment. Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. With sad regrets, Coyote Rick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Publication: The Globe and Mail Date: 2013.8.15 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:34:06 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk And I would also like to apologise to any JMDL member who may be a Fed for stereotyping you as a turd. This was also insensitive of Paz and me, Anita On 24/08/2013, Anita G wrote: > As someone who added to the parody, I would like to apologise if I > offended or upset anyone transgendered. This would never be my > intention. The lines I added to the song that followed on from Paz's > were kicking at the Feds, who he described as 'turds'. I am sorry if > this wasn't clear, > Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 03:04:26 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk You're right, Rick. Thanks for an excellent post. I initially found the Chelsea Morning/Chelsea Manning title comparison funny, but then it made me uncomfortable. I am an ally of transgendered people, have several transgendered people for friends, and it really wasn't okay. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 07:52:14 -0700 From: Mary Morris Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 Chelsea Puns I think I agree with Victor, the posts weren't meant to be hurtful. I would take it as a compliment if I was compared to a Joni Mitchell song, but Chelsea Manning is probably too young to even get the reference anyway. I thought it was pretty clever - that line. I too, have had many transgendered friends over the years & I'm old. No one I knew was offended, but then that's an individual thing. I would not want to offend anyone. I don't go around making jokes about people's situations in that sense. I'm upset that anyone was offended, but I didn't take it that way....it was just a pun, I don't think there was any malice intended. This is a Joni list & we can't help ourselves when it comes to any connection in the popular zeitgeist. We all speak a Joni "shorthand" & every one is pretty respectful. I wouldn't take offense. There hasn't been any bashing here of any kind that I can recall. Peace. GREETINGS FROM THE TRIPLE M Down a gravel road, where the barb wire meets the sky. MARY M. MORRIS > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:14:53 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 > > > JMDL Digest Saturday, August 24 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1192 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Victor Johnson ] > Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Lori Renee Fye ] > Joni on Transgender Folk [Rick Hobbs-Seeley ] > Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] > Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail [Rick Hobbs-See] > Mary's Joke NJC [kbhla@fastmail.fm] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 07:58:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Clint Norwood Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 Just for my own two cents I think that we completely destroy our own ability to look at and laugh at the world (a complete necessity if you ask me) when we misconstrue EVERY joke about humanity. C'mon folks, the world, to a large extent, is an utterly ridiculous farce rife with situations and things that can (and must) be parodied. Now let's get a grip. I don't think there are too many people who like Joni Mitchell and would make fun of the transgendered in a mean spirited way. Let's be honest about the difference between real harmful prejudice and light joking that prevents us from taking ourselves too seriously. If we joke about these situations its okay. When we try to physically harm, disenfranchise or in any way try to take away someone's liberty and rights IT IS NOT OKAY. In my graduate English classes there are all kinds of white people that are ridiculously sensitive to the feelings of black people, would never say anything about black people other than, "they are always treated like second-class citizens" and would never admit to ANY racism or stereotypical feelings. This completely creates an environment where people that "don't have a racist bone in my body" can't have an honest discussion about race, would get angry at me for admitting my own racism (which I don't celebrate) yet not see the irony when they would NEVER live in a black neighborhood like mine. Those are the differences. - -Clint Norwood (human being) ________________________________ From: JMDL Digest To: joni-digest@smoe.org Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 9:14 AM Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 JMDL Digest Saturday, August 24 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 1192 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Victor Johnson ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Lori Renee Fye ] Joni on Transgender Folk [Rick Hobbs-Seeley ] Re: Joni on Transgender Folk [Anita G ] Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail [Rick Hobbs-See] Mary's Joke NJC [kbhla@fastmail.fm] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 08:15:33 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk With all due respect, I completely disagree. There was nothing hurtful said in any of those posts, nothing demeaning said towards transgender people, period. It's called parody which involves having a sense of humor. If you didn't find it funny that's perfectly okay but I think it's sad that an attempt at poking fun into something that is very much in the public eye (and therefore completely fair game for parody) has to be misconstrued into something hateful. I have transgendered friends as well but that's not really the issue. The point it is, if you're looking for "hate" there was none, end of story. You're directing your anger to the wrong place. Victor On Saturday, August 24, 2013, Lori Renee Fye wrote: > You're right, Rick. Thanks for an excellent post. > > I initially found the Chelsea Morning/Chelsea Manning title comparison > funny, but then it made me uncomfortable. I am an ally of transgendered > people, have several transgendered people for friends, and it really wasn't > okay. > > Lori - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 03:04:26 -0600 From: Lori Renee Fye Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk You're right, Rick. Thanks for an excellent post. I initially found the Chelsea Morning/Chelsea Manning title comparison funny, but then it made me uncomfortable. I am an ally of transgendered people, have several transgendered people for friends, and it really wasn't okay. Lori - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 01:50:03 -0700 From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley Subject: Joni on Transgender Folk I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric realize that's nconsistent with our community. I confidently doubt JM would support your comment. Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. With sad regrets, Coyote Rick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Publication: The Globe and Mail Date: 2013.8.15 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:14:26 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni on Transgender Folk As someone who added to the parody, I would like to apologise if I offended or upset anyone transgendered. This would never be my intention. The lines I added to the song that followed on from Paz's were kicking at the Feds, who he described as 'turds'. I am sorry if this wasn't clear, Anita - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 01:39:51 -0700 From: Rick Hobbs-Seeley Subject: Re: New Library item: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail I'm really glad the hurtful posts about a man who has chosen to live his life in another gender have ended. What a man rightfully or wrongfully does in the course of living his life has no connection to the person he or she feels to be inside. I hope each and everyone who posted what they thought was an amusing post about the declaration of a transgendered individual to be worthy of comparison to a Joni Mitchell song or lyric take note. I doubt she would support your comment. Please, please be more sensitive to the plight of transgendered youth. We may have similarly situated kids on this list and I worry that well intentioned, yet insensitive comments or jokes may have a negative effect on their desires to move forward. With sad regrets, Coyote Rick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:09 PM, TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com wrote: Title: Wake up, Canada: It's okay to fail Publication: The Globe and Mail Date: 2013.8.15 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2675 - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 11:46:22 -0700 From: kbhla@fastmail.fm Subject: Mary's Joke NJC No worries, Mary! I had a chuckle from Bob's post about that passionate love letter long ago. It happens. I once did the opposite - sending a late night email to a group of attorneys I was working with titled "NJC" ;-) Kakki - ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2013 #1192 ****************************** - ------- To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:38:51 -0700 From: Shari Eaton Subject: Re: Attention Joni chronology geeks - Joni and the dulcimer Any particular tracks of Laura Allen's that exemplify this? I'd love to hear! Sent from my Pimped-out Flying Carpet On Aug 24, 2013, at 11:15 AM, shadows and light wrote: > And then there's what Estra Estella Berosini wrote: "When people listen to > Joni Mitchell's "Blue" album, they think they're listening to > quintessential Joni. What people do not realize is that Joni was emulating > our good friend, Laura Allen. Joni wrote those amazing words, but they were > laid upon Laura Allen's style fingerprint. Laura not only made the dulcimer > Joni plays on this album, but Laura taught Joni how to play it in the style > Laura had developed. From that moment onward, Laura graciously smiled at > all comparisons made of her to Joni, but, it was the other way around. Joni > never evaded this fact, and often spoke of Laura Allen, giving credit where > credit is due, but, Joni's fans didn't want to hear that. When I first met > Laura at Joni's house, in 1970, it was obvious, and Joni made it clear, who > originated that particular song writing style. Even the song, Blue, which > Joni wrote on the piano, is written in Laura Allen's distinctive style. RIP > Laura Allen, you were so original, prolific, and endearing." > > > Lesli > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Steve Dulson wrote: > >> Hello all! >> >> I have some questions about Joni chronology, particularly as it >> pertains to her dulcimer playing. Joellen Lapidus, who built Joni's >> dulcimers (the ones she is pictured with in various photos) says >> in the Misses songbook that she met Joni at the 1967 Big Sur Folk >> Festival. However, in an article in Dulcimer Players News the >> unnamed author (MUST be Lapidus) says "When I met Joni Mitchell at >> the Big Sur Folk Festival of 1968 and sold her the Wild Columbine >> Dulcimer...(which)... She took...with her to Europe that summer, >> and wrote four dulcimer songs over there." >> >> Hmm...Joni's trip to Europe, including the meeting on Crete with >> Cary Raditz was in 1970. There is picture of Cary, Joni and the >> dulcimer in Girls Like Us. I always figured Joni took the dulcimer >> on that trip because it was smaller, lighter and easier to schlep >> around than a guitar. >> >> Sheila Weller says the first meeting with Lapidus was in '68. I >> think this is more likely. Joni was in England in summer '67, and >> I really don't think she attended the BSFF that year. >> >> All this is relevant to me because I have been in correspondence >> with an old acquaintance, who writes: >> >> "I do indeed still own the dulcimer. It has hardly been used all >> these years (it needs new strings) but I still think it is a beautiful >> instrument. My parents bought it for my birthday (I wanted a guitar). >> My step-cousin, David Zeitlin, worked at McCabeb s (I think he may >> have been a part ownerb¬ sure about that) and he had just gotten >> the dulcimer back from Joni Mitchell who had bought it for herself. >> I am not sure how long she had it but when someone gave her a gift of >> another dulcimer, she brought it back and David passed it on to my >> parents at a bargain price." >> >> The photo she took shows a very bare-bones dulcimer, with friction >> tuning pegs (eek!) and no "extra" 6 1/2 fret. Maybe a McSpadden? >> I've asked her for the maker's name and the year she acquired it. >> >> I'm wondering if Joni bought/rented it from McCabes (in Santa >> Monica) to get some dulcimer time in before her Lapidus dulcimer >> was ready...if she didn't take the Wild Columbine instrument home >> from Big Sur...or maybe she'd been messing around with a dulcimer >> before she met Lapidus? >> >> Any input welcomed! >> >> *************************************************** >> Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA >> FAR-West (Folk Alliance Region - West) >> tinkersown@ca.rr.com www.far-west.org ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #327 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe