From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #67 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, February 21 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 067 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? [Les Irvin ] Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? ["Mark" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 [gertus@aol.com] Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne [Richard Flynn ] Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? [Michael Paz ] Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? [Jack Merkel ] Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 [gertus@aol.com] Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? ["David J. Phillips" Subject: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? Joniphiles - I am personally being sued by a photographer for 4 photos of hers that were uploaded to JoniMitchell.com by an anonymous fan. She is demanding anywhere from $25,000 to $600,000 from me. I am not asking for a single penny from anyone, but I am asking you to join the email campaign in my defense. See more details here: http://jonimitchell.com/justice.cfm Thanks for your help, Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:07:59 -0800 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? You don't need to ask me twice. Done. Let's hope this nonsense goes away soon. Mark in Seattle - -----Original Message----- From: Les Irvin Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:02 AM To: Joni List Subject: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? Joniphiles - I am personally being sued by a photographer for 4 photos of hers that were uploaded to JoniMitchell.com by an anonymous fan. She is demanding anywhere from $25,000 to $600,000 from me. I am not asking for a single penny from anyone, but I am asking you to join the email campaign in my defense. See more details here: http://jonimitchell.com/justice.cfm Thanks for your help, Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:42:50 +0000 From: gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 Hi Carmel, Yes, I can hear Sandy too, very clearly. Also, one of her songs mentions "Chelsea Morning". She has a lot of talent and a lovely voice so it will be interesting to follow whatever path she takes. She iimmersed herself in British traditional music for a while and also has some classical training. I am delighted to see she has chosen to do some Bert Jansch songs. Glad you like her to, Jacky On 19 Feb 2013, at 18:39, carmel rotem wrote: > > > thanks Jacky! > > I listened to that link, as well as to some other songs of her on youtube and I really like them. > her style remindes me more of Sandy Denny than Joni, but anyway I'm sure she's influenced by both. > > really great find! > Carmel. > > > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 09:03:38 -0500 (EST) > From: Gertus@aol.com > Subject: Olivia Chaney > > I haven't written anything to the list for eons but I just had alert people > to someone I have just discovered here in the UK. I was listening to a > folk program on BBC Radio and heard a track called Ballade by Olivia Chaney > and it was so beautiful I needed to know more about her. > _http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523_ (http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523) > I was amazed to find her lovely version of ACOY on YouTube. It's very much > a tribute version and, of course, she is being described as the new British > Joni Mitchell, something she will have to live with, but she is so > talented. Have a listen. _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824) > > Jacky > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:46:11 -0500 From: Richard Flynn Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne Since Joni was in a relationship with Cohen briefly from mid-1967 to early 1968, it is likely that she was completely conscious of the borrowing. Collins's "Suzanne" was very well known. Cohen' s song version was practically released in 1968 since "Songs of Leonard Cohen" was released in late December of 1967. Richard Flynn Professor of Literature Georgia Southern University https://sites.google.com/a/georgiasouthern.edu/rflynn/ On Feb 19, 2013, at 10:08 PM, "Robert Sartorius" wrote: > Kevin, > > > > I am very much only an amateur musician, but in this case "impossible" > similarities between TWOI and Judy's version of Suzanne appear in the > melodic line (the notes you sing), the harmonic lines [the chordal > presentation in terms of both tone (notes) and style (i.e., arpeggio style - > picking rather than strumming)], and the rhythm (spacing and timing) of both > the melodic and harmonic lines. > > > > In short, pretty much everything musical got lifted (apparently) from the > Judy Collins arrangement for the first two lines of each verse - with modest > varations in melody and harmony appearing in the third and fourth lines of > the verses. The words were changed, but even they bear a strong resemblance > to the style in which Suzanne was written. > > > > I have (long) seen this as a case of imitation being the highest form of > flattery. In that sense, it was flattering of Joni to write TWOI, and right > of her not to record it. (A cynic might speculate it was self-defensive, > too, given the potential for a copyright infringement complaint). > > Three follow-up questions for the group: > > > > 1. Was LC's 67 recording of Suzanne more popular than JC's 66 > recording ? I was very aware of JC's, but not of LC's. > > > > 2. If Joni had written TWOI before Suzanne, do you think she > would have stood by silently/uncomplainingly all these years given the > popularity of "Suzanne"? > > > > 3. Did she actually publish/copyright the music to TWOI? Or just > the lyrics ? > > > > > > Bobsart > > > > From: Kevin Foehr [mailto:kfoehr@sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:01 PM > To: Mark; Robert Sartorius; joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne > > > > Thanks Rob and Mark for your responses. > > It sounds like you guys know what you are talking about, and it does make > sense too. Joni may have heard Suzanne via Judy and decided to use a > similar melodic progression (or what ever it's called -- I'm not a musician) > in one of her songs, but then decided not to record it, especially after > LC's '67 recording of it became so popular. > > That's a bit of a shame as W of I has enough of Joni's unique style to > obviously be her work, but there are also a few bars repeated two or thee > times that smack of Suzanne a little too much and might have tainted the > entire song and maybe her reputation too, which would have been an even > greater shame! > > Thanks again for your comments and for sharing your research. Good work! > > Kevin > > _____ > > From: Mark > To: Robert Sartorius ; joni@smoe.org; > onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org > Cc: kfoehr@sbcglobal.net > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 9:09 PM > Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne > > > I was just researching some of what is known about Joni's relationship with > Cohen. One source, 'Heck of a Guy - The Other Leonard Cohen Site', other > being other than the official Leonard Cohen site, said that Judy Collins > introduced Joni to Leonard at the Newport Folk Festival in 1967. Copyright > on JoniMitchell.com for 'The Wizard of Is' says > 1966. That would put it before the two met if what I read was accurate. > According to Wikipedia, the song Suzanne was first recorded by Judy Collins > on her 1966 album 'In My Life'. The lyrics were first released in Cohen's > 1966 book of poetry, 'Parasites of Heaven'. > > So if all of that is true, it is possible that Joni had heard 'Suzanne' > before she wrote 'The Wizard of Is'. > > Mark in Seattle > > > Perhaps they had collaborated on developing the music and then she decided > to let him have it instead of her? Or could she have written it first and > then she let LC adapt it into Suzanne with his lyrics? And perhaps that is > why it was > never released on an album by Joni? Or was it released? I don't recall it > on her early albums. > > Sorry if this was discussed already, but I looked back and couldn't find > where it was." > > I rarely post without doing my homework/research/fact-checking, but I am > going out on a limb here. I believe that I looked at this at one point in > the past, and concluded to my satisfaction that Suzanne was written before > Cohen/Mitchell became an item. That would make W of I something of a > knockoff by Joni of an already written LC song. Which might also explain why > she had the good sense not to record it. > > If I am wrong, I apologize to all (including Joni). > > Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:57:28 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? Done. Les please call me asap! Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com On Feb 20, 2013, at 1:02 PM, Les Irvin wrote: Joniphiles - I am personally being sued by a photographer for 4 photos of hers that were uploaded to JoniMitchell.com by an anonymous fan. She is demanding anywhere from $25,000 to $600,000 from me. I am not asking for a single penny from anyone, but I am asking you to join the email campaign in my defense. See more details here: http://jonimitchell.com/justice.cfm Thanks for your help, Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:53:06 -0600 From: Jack Merkel Subject: Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? Les, This is really a tragic turn of events. You can count on me sending out an email in your support. Jack Sent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2013, at 1:02 PM, Les Irvin wrote: > Joniphiles - > > I am personally being sued by a photographer for 4 photos of hers that were uploaded to JoniMitchell.com by an anonymous fan. She is demanding anywhere from $25,000 to $600,000 from me. I am not asking for a single penny from anyone, but I am asking you to join the email campaign in my defense. See more details here: http://jonimitchell.com/justice.cfm > > Thanks for your help, > Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:42:50 +0000 From: gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2013 #234 Hi Carmel, Yes, I can hear Sandy too, very clearly. Also, one of her songs mentions "Chelsea Morning". She has a lot of talent and a lovely voice so it will be interesting to follow whatever path she takes. She iimmersed herself in British traditional music for a while and also has some classical training. I am delighted to see she has chosen to do some Bert Jansch songs. Glad you like her to, Jacky On 19 Feb 2013, at 18:39, carmel rotem wrote: > > > thanks Jacky! > > I listened to that link, as well as to some other songs of her on youtube and I really like them. > her style remindes me more of Sandy Denny than Joni, but anyway I'm sure she's influenced by both. > > really great find! > Carmel. > > > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 09:03:38 -0500 (EST) > From: Gertus@aol.com > Subject: Olivia Chaney > > I haven't written anything to the list for eons but I just had alert people > to someone I have just discovered here in the UK. I was listening to a > folk program on BBC Radio and heard a track called Ballade by Olivia Chaney > and it was so beautiful I needed to know more about her. > _http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523_ (http://ochaney.amazingtunes.com/tunes/168523) > I was amazed to find her lovely version of ACOY on YouTube. It's very much > a tribute version and, of course, she is being described as the new British > Joni Mitchell, something she will have to live with, but she is so > talented. Have a listen. _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VipgQCfu824) > > Jacky > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 00:55:06 -0500 From: "David J. Phillips" Subject: Re: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? I know we're not supposed to use the list to say "me too", but me too. djp On 21/02/13 00:0759, Mark wrote: > You don't need to ask me twice. Done. Let's hope this nonsense goes away > soon. > > Mark in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- From: Les Irvin > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:02 AM > To: Joni List > Subject: JoniMitchell.com 1996-2013? > > Joniphiles - > > I am personally being sued by a photographer for 4 photos of hers that > were uploaded to JoniMitchell.com by an anonymous fan. She is demanding > anywhere from $25,000 to $600,000 from me. I am not asking for a single > penny from anyone, but I am asking you to join the email campaign in my > defense. See more details here: http://jonimitchell.com/justice.cfm > > Thanks for your help, > Les ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #67 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe