From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #66 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, February 20 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 066 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne [Richard Flynn ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:46:11 -0500 From: Richard Flynn Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne Since Joni was in a relationship with Cohen briefly from mid-1967 to early 1968, it is likely that she was completely conscious of the borrowing. Collins's "Suzanne" was very well known. Cohen' s song version was practically released in 1968 since "Songs of Leonard Cohen" was released in late December of 1967. Richard Flynn Professor of Literature Georgia Southern University https://sites.google.com/a/georgiasouthern.edu/rflynn/ On Feb 19, 2013, at 10:08 PM, "Robert Sartorius" wrote: > Kevin, > > > > I am very much only an amateur musician, but in this case "impossible" > similarities between TWOI and Judy's version of Suzanne appear in the > melodic line (the notes you sing), the harmonic lines [the chordal > presentation in terms of both tone (notes) and style (i.e., arpeggio style - > picking rather than strumming)], and the rhythm (spacing and timing) of both > the melodic and harmonic lines. > > > > In short, pretty much everything musical got lifted (apparently) from the > Judy Collins arrangement for the first two lines of each verse - with modest > varations in melody and harmony appearing in the third and fourth lines of > the verses. The words were changed, but even they bear a strong resemblance > to the style in which Suzanne was written. > > > > I have (long) seen this as a case of imitation being the highest form of > flattery. In that sense, it was flattering of Joni to write TWOI, and right > of her not to record it. (A cynic might speculate it was self-defensive, > too, given the potential for a copyright infringement complaint). > > Three follow-up questions for the group: > > > > 1. Was LC's 67 recording of Suzanne more popular than JC's 66 > recording ? I was very aware of JC's, but not of LC's. > > > > 2. If Joni had written TWOI before Suzanne, do you think she > would have stood by silently/uncomplainingly all these years given the > popularity of "Suzanne"? > > > > 3. Did she actually publish/copyright the music to TWOI? Or just > the lyrics ? > > > > > > Bobsart > > > > From: Kevin Foehr [mailto:kfoehr@sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:01 PM > To: Mark; Robert Sartorius; joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne > > > > Thanks Rob and Mark for your responses. > > It sounds like you guys know what you are talking about, and it does make > sense too. Joni may have heard Suzanne via Judy and decided to use a > similar melodic progression (or what ever it's called -- I'm not a musician) > in one of her songs, but then decided not to record it, especially after > LC's '67 recording of it became so popular. > > That's a bit of a shame as W of I has enough of Joni's unique style to > obviously be her work, but there are also a few bars repeated two or thee > times that smack of Suzanne a little too much and might have tainted the > entire song and maybe her reputation too, which would have been an even > greater shame! > > Thanks again for your comments and for sharing your research. Good work! > > Kevin > > _____ > > From: Mark > To: Robert Sartorius ; joni@smoe.org; > onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org > Cc: kfoehr@sbcglobal.net > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 9:09 PM > Subject: Re: Wizard of Id vs Suzanne > > > I was just researching some of what is known about Joni's relationship with > Cohen. One source, 'Heck of a Guy - The Other Leonard Cohen Site', other > being other than the official Leonard Cohen site, said that Judy Collins > introduced Joni to Leonard at the Newport Folk Festival in 1967. Copyright > on JoniMitchell.com for 'The Wizard of Is' says > 1966. That would put it before the two met if what I read was accurate. > According to Wikipedia, the song Suzanne was first recorded by Judy Collins > on her 1966 album 'In My Life'. The lyrics were first released in Cohen's > 1966 book of poetry, 'Parasites of Heaven'. > > So if all of that is true, it is possible that Joni had heard 'Suzanne' > before she wrote 'The Wizard of Is'. > > Mark in Seattle > > > Perhaps they had collaborated on developing the music and then she decided > to let him have it instead of her? Or could she have written it first and > then she let LC adapt it into Suzanne with his lyrics? And perhaps that is > why it was > never released on an album by Joni? Or was it released? I don't recall it > on her early albums. > > Sorry if this was discussed already, but I looked back and couldn't find > where it was." > > I rarely post without doing my homework/research/fact-checking, but I am > going out on a limb here. I believe that I looked at this at one point in > the past, and concluded to my satisfaction that Suzanne was written before > Cohen/Mitchell became an item. That would make W of I something of a > knockoff by Joni of an already written LC song. Which might also explain why > she had the good sense not to record it. > > If I am wrong, I apologize to all (including Joni). > > Bobsart ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #66 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe