From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #60 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, February 15 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 060 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) [Catherine ] RE: TS as Joni ["Robert Sartorius" ] RE: David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) [Susan Tier] re: TS as JM in GLU [c Karma ] David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) [Susan Tierney ] RE: JMDL Digest V2013 #229 [Mary Morris ] Blue greatest relationship album - the atlantic [Happy The Man ] TS and Girls Like Us [evian@sasktel.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:01:34 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) Agreed. Joni has always been fashion-conscious, at least to these eyes. She even worked as a model for a time. Even her high-school pictures suggest she liked looking good. (I don't have a problem with that either.) And tying it back in with the whole (dare I mention the name?) Taylor Swift thing: in order to be successful, a person will dress the way they think will get them somewhere. I can't believe that I know some of the words to a TS song, but here goes: "But she wears short skirts, I wear T-shirts She's Cheer Captain and I'm on the bleachers." >________________________________ > From: Michael Flaherty >To: Susan Tierney McNamara ; Phyliss Ward ; kbhla >Cc: "" >Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:29:27 AM >Subject: Re: David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) > >> but I'm sure she would have probably switched from satin and pearls to gauze >and beads anyway, since she loved fashion. > > >Yes, she does. I haven't >followed this thread closely, but a couple posts seemed to imply that Joni >doesn't care about such shallow things, but the pictorial record shows >otherwise (which I personally have no problem with whatsoever). > >Michael F. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 07:28:01 -0500 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: RE: TS as Joni Wow - what a thread - again. Joni has had a nearly reverential American Masters bio produced to capture the essence of her artistry, a TNT tribute concert in which a star-studded line-up payed homage to her musical and visual artistry, a Century Award from Billboard acknowledging that she did not get the popular recognition that she deserved (given the artistic level of her body of work), a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Grammies, election to the R&R and Songwriters Halls of Fame, numerous near-worshipful references in movies suggesting that her near-cult status is shared by movie makers as well as recording artists, and the list goes on. All of which go to her artistry and standing among her peers (or, rather, those closest to being in the neighborhood of being entitled to judge her body of work). What Joni needs now is some long-overdue mainstream exposure and recognition. With Taylor Swift playing her in a movie, she will surely get that. And, I am confident that Joni would embrace it, however, ambivalently. Consider these lines from "The Boho Dance": "I was a hopeful in rooms like this When I was working cheap...... But even on the scuffle The cleaner's press was in my jeans And any eye for detail Caught a little lace along the seams.... It's just that some steps outside the Boho dance Have a fascination for me.......... You read those books where luxury Comes as a guest to take a slave Books where artists in noble poverty Go like virgins to the grave Don't you get sensitive on me 'Cause I know you're just too proud You couldn't step outside the Boho dance now Even if good fortune allowed.............. Nothing is capsulized in me On either side of town The streets were never really mine Not mine these glamour gowns." Joni's appearances on Let's Sing Out, Johnny Cash and BBC's "Pink Dress" concert reveal a young woman with a sense of fashion and a touch of glamour, in contrast to what was at that time a trend toward "mainstream scruffy". This was true throughout her career (including the cover of FTR). She may never have been truly "mainstream", but she was on the cover of Time, and she did enjoy considerable popularity. Taylor's campaign for the role saw her change her appearance, at least in my mind's eye, to capture Joni's look on the cover of "Clouds" (those bangs!). She is on record, effectively, in her posts to her fans saying that it would be a big deal for her to play Joni as the lead role in this film (make no mistake, it would be the lead role). She is right, of course. And vice versa. Our culture has changed. Ted Mack and The Gong Show have morphed into American Idol and America's Got Talent, etc. And Taylor Swift is no Madonna, or Lady Gaga, or even Britney Spears. At least, not yet. After adjustment for time and place (and the trappings of excessive fame), she is closer to Joni than to those others (a mix of liberated very young woman and faux-virginal idol, writing about her failed relationships) - which is not to compare the quality of her compositional or performing talents with Joni's. I agree with Gerald, and think Kevin may be letting his disappointment with not having yet another artistic tribute to Joni color his view of TS and this possible movie. Lady Gaga and David Bowie were glam. Joni Mitchell and Taylor Swift are not, despite her mandatory, hyperbolic display at the Grammies. (As Joe Pesci said about Marissa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny - "and she's pretty cute, too, huh?") TS is about Joni's age when Joni appeared on Let's Sing Out. As a performer, she is quite advanced compared to Joni at that stage, and I agree with Dan that she could do a good job. (Whether or not she will remains to be seen, of course.) Finally, Dan's thought about seeing the movie with his daughter (who "loves" TS and "hates" Joni) recalls to mind an anecdote posted by a lister (I forget whom) some 8 years ago or so. She noted that her son "loves" Adam Duritz (of Counting Crows) and "hates" JM. However, after Duritz posted a manifesto on his website about how much he loves Joni's music and what a terrifying thrill it was to meet her in their mutual studio (and encouraging his fans to give her a listen - because "there's noone like her, there never was, and never will be"), the lister caught her son listening to Joni's music in his bedroom. Well, Joni (and we all) need more stories like that ;-) Bobsart Gerald Kent wrote: "I am sorry to disagree Kevin. In her early days joni was very much the "glamor girl" wearing silver mini skirts and very bright lip stick and looking incredibly good. I had the very great pleasure of seeing her in the village in her early 60's per California valley days." Kevin previously wrote: " I haven't commented on this yet, but I am increasingly disappointed that this idea of TS playing Joni persists. IMHO, TS is no Joni and shouldn't play her. She will taint the representation of Joni with her own persona of mainstream pop success, bright red lipstick, glam, etc. Joni was never mainstream, and she was not into glam in the 60s. Look at her on the cover of FTR; does that look like TS? And I don't mean just her physical features. I'm talking about her clothes and make-up and the backdrop/location conveying environmentalism, natural beauty, individuality (not glamorous fashion), solitude, and peace. This is the image of Joni I would like to see conveyed in the movie, if there is to be one, and imo, TS can't pull that off. Secondly, I really doubt TS would agree to play Joni at this point in her career. I don't follow pop music these days, but it appears she is near the top of the heap and near the zenith of her career, so I don't think she would want to portray someone else.........." Dan, who I believe started this thread, wrote" "Well then, I may just have to chime in one more time. I think TS is an extremely talented and poised young woman. She already looks perfect to play Joni. She is a singer AND a guitar player (a musician). If she sets her mind to acting, I have no doubt that she will excel at it (she has already played minor parts in several movies, mostly cameos). If she were to immerse herself in this role, she could probably learn to actually play Joni's guitar parts, and she would have the MUSICAL CHOPS to lip synch Joni's vocals (or sing them herself). She would expose LITERALLY MILLIONS of her fans to Joni; I think this would fundamentally change Joni's standing in the history of culture, not to mention music. Virtually no one younger than (I don't know, pick a number, 45) has even heard of Joni. ..........I personally would enjoy seeing the film with my daughter, who incidentally loves TS (and "hates" JM) - I hope they make it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:47:07 +0000 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) This was true of Joni from a very young age. From a review of Katherine Monk's book at the JM.com site, "'I'm a clothes horse,' she told a reporter in 1979. 'I love fashion.' She wrote a column for her high school newspaper entitled "Fads and Fashions," and earned money to buy her own wardrobe working after hours at a store called Ricki's Ladies Wear." Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu From: Michael Flaherty [mailto:mflaher3@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:29 AM To: Susan Tierney McNamara; Phyliss Ward; kbhla Cc: Subject: Re: David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) > but I'm sure she would have probably switched from satin and pearls to gauze and beads anyway, since she loved fashion. Yes, she does. I haven't followed this thread closely, but a couple posts seemed to imply that Joni doesn't care about such shallow things, but the pictorial record shows otherwise (which I personally have no problem with whatsoever). Michael F. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:48:36 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re: TS as JM in GLU I have not offered much on this but I'll try to keep MHO short: Pertinant assumption first:The breadth of time that the book covers is probably too long to allow any one actress to play any of the three for the whole film, but let's suppose that there are "stars" with enough acting and musical chops plus/or production augmentation in the form of styling and makeup to pull it off... The big question:How is the balance found?: Does desire to widen the appeal of their art overcome the responsibility to depict the subjects with complete truth and dignity? Why can't we have both, one might ask? "Walk The Line" and "Ray" are pretty fine examples. If the former weighs heavily for you, you might advocate that it couldn't hurt to involve performers which millions of people would like to see succeed. I think all three women would agree that to some degree their public persona in their respective salad days (maybe even still) had a certain amount of spin applied. This is not unlike what Ms. Swift is living at the moment. If Taylor Swift can bring her tens of millions of fans to view herself getting even 30% of Joni right while exposing them to Joni's work, doesn't that help dry the paint on Joni's legacy? Swift might have the opportunity to turn more people on to Joni Mitchell (the real one) than Joni Mitchell (the real one)...certainly more than any of us, as hard as we try. It's so tempting a situation that the producers of the film could be considered negligent if they didn't consider it. The harder part for them if they go this route is coming up with two other Taylor Swifts so that the same audience will pay attention to the two other subjects' stories. I'd suggest J-Law as Carole (please let her be able to sing), and Zooey Deschanel as Carly (we know she can). CC "A camera pans the cocktail hour behind a blind of potted palms and finds a lady in a Paris dress, with runs in her nylons." -- JM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:59:32 +0000 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: David Crosby tells Joni what to wear (was RE: TS as Joni) I'm assuming that the idea that David Crosby told Joni to change her look came from the lines in Dawntreader: City satins left at home I will not need them I believe him when he tells of loving me Something truthful in the sea your lies will find you Leave behind your streets he said and come to me It's interesting to speculate where Joni's career would have went if she hadn't met David Crosby, but I'm sure she would have probably switched from satin and pearls to gauze and beads anyway, since she loved fashion. Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Phyliss Ward Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:09 PM To: kbhla Cc: Subject: Re: TS as Joni I hear you on the latter Kakki. Not my favorite portrayal of our dear Joan. Squirmy for sure. Phyliss On Feb 13, 2013, at 7:18 PM, "kbhla" wrote: > I'm neutral on the casting of TS as Joni in Girls Like Us (though I > love Catherine's suggestion of Jennifer Lawrence) and more concerned > about how the film will portray the "National Enquirer" type tales > from ex-lovers and husbands sourced in the book. Some of the stuff > really made me squirm and felt pretty intrusive and, well, I'll stop there. > > > > As for Joni's Glam period - "everything comes and goes, marked by > lovers and styles of clothes" ;-) > > > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:51:22 -0800 From: Mary Morris Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2013 #229 Have to agree with all three of you, Kakki, Sharon & Mark. There must be an out of work actress to play Joni, even if TS looks like her. If it brings new ears to Joni's music-whichever period-this is a good thing. I like that Joni was kind of "mod" in her early days. She was wearing what a lot of women were wearing at the time anyway & later, in her "earth mother, lady of the canyon" period she was doing the same. Later, she dressed in stilettos & beaded gold dress at one of The Grammys. Omg, I love her music & now I'm talking about her fashion. Oh well, Joni loves fashion. I loved her silver Grammy dress but I do hate her piling her hair into that gramma top not. It's just not flattering. imho. That's all the bitching I'll do. Have a wonderful Thursday, jmdl'ers. :) GREETINGS FROM THE TRIPLE M Down a gravel road, where the barb wire meets the sky. MARY M. MORRIS > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:00:04 -0500 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2013 #229 > > > JMDL Digest Thursday, February 14 2013 Volume 2013 : Number 229 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > TS as Joni ["kbhla" ] > TS as Joni [Sharon Watkins ] > Re: TS as Joni ["Mark" ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:13:48 -0600 From: Happy The Man Subject: Blue greatest relationship album - the atlantic http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/02/why-joni-mitchells-blue-is-the-greatest-relationship-album-ever/273147/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:43:17 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re: TS as JM in GLU (redux) OK, I take it back...J-Law as Carole, Zooey Deschanel in a cameo as Linda Ronstadt (!), and Katy Perry as Carly. Oh, this is going to be colorful. CC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:13:19 -0600 From: evian@sasktel.net Subject: TS and Girls Like Us B Wow, and I think that Girls Like Us is by far the best account of Joni's life thus far. It was exactly what I was longing for - insight into Joni's life that presented her as an actual person, and as a complicated, messy mortal like the rest of us.B I've said it before and I will say it again - I WANT to know the complicated details of her life.B I think it's important to know these things.B Joni can say that her songs aren't confessional, but a good chunk are autobiographical, no ifs ands or buts about it.B Thus, I appreciate the music even more when I can tie what was happening with her personally at the time of writing with the song.B And, I don't think it's just a yearning for baseB gossip, or junk food for juvenilles.B Girls Like Us really made Joni more human, and complicated and interesting to me, whereas the Mercer book, to me, came across as pretentious and written more with a "Joni is going to like this" vibe.B That, added with the Fogelberg slagging, made me toss it angrily to the floor. Weller, conversely, just shot from the hip and spilled the good and the bad and the ugly.B Joni does enough self-mythologizing herself; I don't need any more of that. B As for TS playing Joni:B I don't mind TS.B She's a pop singer and doesn't pretend to be in Joni's league. I could see her easily playing a young Joni, if she can act.B However, I would be happier, if this thing does get made, to have a real actress play her.B B Rob ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2013 #60 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe