From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2012 #360 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Website:http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, October 26 2012 Volume 2012 : Number 360 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- All this talk about holiness [Shari Eaton ] Re: All this talk about holiness [Anita G ] Re: All this talk about holiness [Michael Flaherty ] Re: All this talk about holiness [Anita G ] The boxed set from Rhino [Les Irvin ] Re: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau [Anita G ] Art [jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com] The only Black Man at the Party [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #1603 ["Gary Hanick" ] Re: joni and james ["Eaton, Shari" ] Re: joni and james [Anita ] Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #1603 ["Miguel Arrondo" ] RE: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau [Susan Tierney McNamara <] The Only Black Man at the Party [jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com] Re: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau ["David J. Phillips" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:40:40 -0700 From: Shari Eaton Subject: All this talk about holiness I only recently learned about Bob Dylan's God phase and haven't yet taken the time to see what all of that was about but This morning I was singing through All this talk about holiness now Must be the start of the latest style Is it all books and words or do you really feel it? Do you really laugh? Do you really care? Do you really smile when you smile? You criticize and you flatter. Imitate the best (Woody Guthery) And the rest you memorize (ouch) You know the times you've impressed me most are the times when you don't try. When you don't even try. Do you think she was referring to Dylan here? I'd even venture to say this verse is directed toward him as well: After the rush, when you come back down You're always disappointed Nothing seems to keep you high Drive your bargains Push your papers Win your medals Fuck your strangers Don't it leave you on the empty side? Thoughts? Lots of Joni, Shari ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:37:41 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: All this talk about holiness Thinking that Art was some years away from being incarnated, whenever I read any Joni lyrics about men and holiness, I always think of Joni and Leonard Cohen. Although they were no longer an item together, I guess they met up from time to time and 'A Case of You' (which is, of course, later) speculation often has it that Joni wrote that about Lenny. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:38:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: All this talk about holiness Bob Dylan had not converted to Christianity or begun his "Jesus" period (or whatever you want to call it) yet. However, I don't think that religion is the center of the song, so this wouldn't eliminate Dylan, but I still strongly doubt it. I think it is about a man (or composite of men) whom Joni had a relationship with. The lyrics are very intimate--like he's more than a friend. (I've always suspected James Taylor, but I have no evidence of that, and the "holiness" certainly fits Cohen more.) Michael F. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:03:46 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: All this talk about holiness > Do you think she was referring to Dylan here? > I have been thinking a great deal about 'Art Noveau' today and reading the entire lyric of 'Woman of Heart and Mind' it did cross my mind (though unlikely) that she's writing about herself as him. Interesting to conjure with as an idea. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:08:35 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: The boxed set from Rhino I received a promo copy of the Rhino/Warners boxed set today and must say I'm pleasantly surprised. Nothing fancy, no new liner notes or any new comments at all... but... each CD is an exact replica of the original gatefold LPs as released. Makes it rather hard to read some of the lyrics shrunk down to CD size, but still a nice touch. Amazon currently has it for sale for $53.44 (US), making it about $5.34 per CD. Not bad... and actually a pretty good gift for the completist and/or that soon-to-be new Joni fan you'll be gifting this season! To be released November 6th. http://tinyurl.com/9ddrheo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 18:40:49 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau On 22/10/2012, Bob.Muller@fluor.com wrote: I think there are much bigger issues at > play. While the article also made my head hurt a bit, it's a topic that > has rarely been explored and examined at this level of detail which I > found admirable. Yes, I think our experiences are similar on this Bob. I also noticed my reticence to write anything about it for fear of looking stupid or, worse to me, culturally insensitive. Preparing to write some of my thoughts about this piece sent me hurtling back into my early 80s days when black women were starting to confront us white lesbian feminists with racism. It was so painful to hear the voices of these black women and to experience both their hurt and rage. To be part of a dominant white culture, especially one as colonial as Great Britain, caused me to feel a lot of guilt which took some time for me to manage. However, I thought I would step up to the plate and write something about this very important piece and here are a few thoughts to throw into the mix. What I really like about this article/essay was being given the chance to think about the character of Art as the author describes: "A self-authorized sexual predator, beholden to no sexual double standard, strolling the street with a bopping walk that could not but call to mind the jazz genre, Art Nouveau would seem the perfect vehicle to flee from the vulnerability and devaluation that marked the white female folksinger." Whilst I welcome a lot of food for thought and I guess any piece you write has to come in from a position it seemed a big leap for me to make that Joni, seeing "this black guy with a beautiful spirit walking with a bop" was a self authorised sexual predator - a black pimp with a bit of jazz musician thrown in. Yet, coming in context in the essay which talks about Joni having been seen over and over again as someone's 'Old Lady' and so much interest in who she was sleeping with, it may well be part of the picture. Joni could be free, perhaps she imagined, in the character of Art. Yet if you were a black man in the late 1970s wearing a really neat suit, would you neccessarily be seen as a pimp? Maybe you would. I know the SUS laws over here in the UK led to police stopping black people in good cars who were smartly dressed. Was Art a pimp? It never crossed my mind until I read this essay and it makes a good case for him being just that. My main issue with the piece is that there seems an assumption that Joni gained an elite position through creating 'Art'. Statements like "Therefore, in the end, this essay serves as a reminder thatcontrary to declarations that honoring Mitchell spelled the end of rocks sexismher beating the white rockers at their own game should not be confused with having changed the game." and "While Mitchells career is typically portrayed as a successful battle against rocks entrenched sexism, I tell a story in which manipulations of perceived race and genre were crucial in securing an exception" imply that Joni has been 'successful' in tackling sexism through adopting the persona of Art, which made her an exception. I think that's another big leap. Art was a figure Joni adopted for a few years - I've been listening to her for for 44 years because of her poetry and lyrical content. And, of course, a great deal of the later lyrical content of her work continues to draw attention to the difficulties she has experienced as an artist. I wouldn't describe Joni as having been an exception to the music business' sexism at any stage of her career, she never beat the white rockers and she would be the first to say that the game hasn't changed. Perhaps the author sees Joni playing with an image of a black man to gain advantage without really knowing what it is to be black. Which is, of course, true. However, by playing Art I don't think she gained any advantage. Be interested to know if others think differently. I was uncomfortable with the fairly contemptuous dismissal of the teachings of the Medicine Wheel. The paragraph is fairly long and extensive and talks about the part of 'Painting In Words and Music' where Joni talks about races being aligned to various directions within the compass. Those of us who have studied the Wheel also know that animals, plants, birds, rocks etc. are also given different directions with the idea of understanding and integrating within ourselves many aspects of our connections with each other and our world. Although I can see that the directional divisions on race could be interpreted as stereotypes, there is a comment where the author writes "In this racialized distribution of virtues, it would appear that only chiefs and artists, such as Mitchell, are able to obtain qualities from outside their own races store. Everyday people remain stuck with the gifts and limitations of their racial cohort." As someone who has benefitted from the Teachings and is neither a chief nor an artist I can say that this part strikes me as a particularly cheap shot not worthy of the essay and not very respectful to the Teachings. Everyone can benefit from learning from each other and being mindful of the planet. Anyway, I think it 's great to have something so new and thought provoking to read, even though it will make your head hurt and it does open up difficult feelings about Joni, elitism, gender and race and sexuality - well, it did for me. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:35:05 -0400 From: "David J. Phillips" Subject: Re: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau As both a joni fan and an academic occasionally reading and drawing from cultural and critical studies, i thought this was a *great* article. I have been uncomfortable with Joni's relation to race (and racism) for a long time, and I'm grateful for such a smart, graceful and fearless entree into the discussion. And I find Anita's comments spot on. More inline below.... On 24/10/12 13:4049, Anita G wrote: > > My main issue with the piece is that there seems an assumption that > Joni gained an elite position through creating 'Art'. Statements like > ... "I tell a story in which manipulations of perceived > race and genre were crucial in securing an exception" imply that Joni > has been 'successful' in tackling sexism through adopting the persona > of Art, which made her an exception. I think that's another big leap. > ...I wouldn't describe Joni as having been an exception to the > music business' sexism at any stage of her career, she never beat the > white rockers and she would be the first to say that the game hasn't > changed. I can't presume to speak for the author, but I read the article to suggest that Art provided, or expressed, or carved out an iconic position for Joni herself to successfully occupy. I don't think that anyone can ague that the record biz (or Joni herself) said "Oh! Joni! I get it! She's a self-authorized sexual predator." But it gave her (and her art) a place to be and to work from, engaging the industry on its own (sexist, racist) terms, while removing herself from the position of white girl folk singer. > I was uncomfortable with the fairly contemptuous dismissal of the > teachings of the Medicine Wheel. ... > > "In this racialized distribution of virtues, it would appear that > only chiefs and artists, such as Mitchell, are able to obtain > qualities from outside their own races store. Everyday people remain > stuck with the gifts and limitations of their racial cohort." > > As someone who has benefitted from the Teachings and is neither a > chief nor an artist I can say that this part strikes me as a > particularly cheap shot not worthy of the essay and > not very respectful to the Teachings. Everyone can benefit from > learning from each other and being mindful of the planet. Thanks for this comment, Anita. I have always been troubled by the racialized aspects of the Wheel. Knowing only what I've heard Joni utter about it, it has seemed to me to re-inforce the most banal racial tropes. But then I love the I Ching, which is, on one level, about as sexist and classist as you can imagine. I don't have much trouble now translating that into something useful, so I'm glad to have another perspective on the Wheel. I also have been troubled by Joni's tacit (and sometimes explicit) insistence that she is at the center, or at all parts, of the Wheel, black and white and red and yellow. Her rejection of the tourist position implies that she is at home everywhere, which strikes me as, at its worst, privileged and colonialist. Thank you all; thanks Joni; thanks Miles Parks Grier! and Miles, if you're following this, know I tried to drop you email saying how much i enjoyed the piece, but i couldn't find an address for you at Duke or Queens or NYU. djp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:43:07 +0000 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: All this talk about holiness Holiness may have been a shot at Leonard Cohen, but I'm not sure. I just assume that these songs are composites, and it's not really about a specific person. By the way, Dylan's Slow Train Coming is one of my favorite albums!!! :-) Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Shari Eaton Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:41 AM To: JMDL Subject: All this talk about holiness I only recently learned about Bob Dylan's God phase and haven't yet taken the time to see what all of that was about but This morning I was singing through All this talk about holiness now Must be the start of the latest style Is it all books and words or do you really feel it? Do you really laugh? Do you really care? Do you really smile when you smile? You criticize and you flatter. Imitate the best (Woody Guthery) And the rest you memorize (ouch) You know the times you've impressed me most are the times when you don't try. When you don't even try. Do you think she was referring to Dylan here? I'd even venture to say this verse is directed toward him as well: After the rush, when you come back down You're always disappointed Nothing seems to keep you high Drive your bargains Push your papers Win your medals Fuck your strangers Don't it leave you on the empty side? Thoughts? Lots of Joni, Shari ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 16:49:28 -0400 From: Michael Paz Subject: PHJB Live tonight on the internet Stream Stevie Wonder's All Star Concert in celebration of the UN's 67th Anniversary, which will feature Special Guests Paul Simon, Sting and The Preservation Hall Jazz Band, as well as a number of other celebrities. The show, to be held Wednesday Night at the UN Headquarters follows Wonder's recent recognition as a United Nations Messenger of Peace. It will be available at approximately 7pm ET on Oct 24, 2012 at http://www.un.org/en Best Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Cypress Recording Services Paz Music Production 17 Waverly Place Destrehan, La. 70047 504-382-0343 Home Office-985-764-0395 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 15:33:49 -0400 From: jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: Art Art is an artist. That is how his name defines him. We don't know much about him except that he complimented Joni and that he represents art. I do not agree with calling him a sexual predator. Here in Ohio, that label is used in a legal context for criminals convicted of rape or exposing themselves. It is a serious phrase and does not equate to an occasional flirting compliment. Jim L Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:28:51 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: The only Black Man at the Party I have to agree with you Bob.> Always a smart move, Mary - and who knows? the truth is maybe that she was going to extremes to NOT be labelled a folksinger. I run through Joni Mitchell items on ebay from time to time and it always cracks me up to see sellers that label EVERY ALBUM SHE DID to be a folk album...Mingus, Travelogue, etc. If you haven't see "The Black Cat With The Black Mouse Socks", hopefully someday you can. It's really a stinker, not even bad in a good way. Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:03:44 -0700 From: "Gary Hanick" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #1603 I don't think so. This song was written in 71 or 72, long before Dylan's Christian phase. I don't think Joni felt such rivalry towards Dylan at the time. After all, she joined him on parts of the Rolling Thunder tour in '75. If anything, she was probably referring to James Taylor. They had split and I don't think Joni took it so well. Sent from my iPad On Oct 25, 2012, at 8:50 AM, "JMDL Digest" wrote: > > JMDL Digest Thursday, October 25 2012 Volume 2012 : Number 1603 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > All this talk about holiness [Shari Eaton ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:40:40 -0700 > From: Shari Eaton > Subject: All this talk about holiness > > I only recently learned about Bob Dylan's God phase and haven't yet taken the time to see what all of that was about but > > This morning I was singing through > > All this talk about holiness now > Must be the start of the latest style > Is it all books and words or do you really feel it? > Do you really laugh? > Do you really care? > Do you really smile when you smile? > > You criticize and you flatter. > Imitate the best (Woody Guthery) > And the rest you memorize (ouch) > You know the times you've impressed me most are the times when you don't try. > When you don't even try. > > Do you think she was referring to Dylan here? > > I'd even venture to say this verse is directed toward him as well: > > > After the rush, when you come back down > You're always disappointed > Nothing seems to keep you high > Drive your bargains > Push your papers > Win your medals > Fuck your strangers > Don't it leave you on the empty side? > > Thoughts? > > > > Lots of Joni, > Shari > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2012 #1603 > ****************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:00:48 -0700 From: "Eaton, Shari" Subject: Re: joni and james I think the Roy Rogers role playing experience she had as a child set her up for strained relationships with men. Can't say I don't struggle with the same feelings. I would say that I expected more from her .. more of a wise approach to love and friendship (trust overall) but working with someone you're in a relationship with is a truly tricky situation. On Oct 17, 2012, at 6:47 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > I love this concert, and you are right Shari, there is a lot of competitiveness going on, although they are sweet to each other. It also reminds me of what Graham Nash talked about with he and Joni racing for the piano when they lived together ... I think it's fair to say that Joni put her creativity first in any relationship she was in ... and we are the beneficiaries of that sacrifice. > > Susan Tierney McNamara > email: sem8@cornell.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Eaton, Shari > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:37 PM > To: JMDL list > Subject: joni and james > > I've been listening to this live concert while working for a few weeks and I really enjoy it > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cDyePbGpg8 > > > It's interesting to hear the dynamic between them and I am sensing (perhaps) the crux of their inability of make it work as a couple. Is it just me or can you hear a bit of a competitive tone coming from Joni? > > Beautiful nonetheless, but just thought I'd share. > > > Lots of Joni, > Shari ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:33:31 +0100 From: Anita Subject: Re: joni and james On 25 Oct 2012, at 19:00, "Eaton, Shari" wrote: > I think the Roy Rogers role playing experience she had as a child set her up for strained relationships with men. Shari,I'm not sure I see the link you are making.Do you mean because they wouldn't let her be Roy Rogers? Or is it something else? Anita ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:18:37 -0300 From: "Miguel Arrondo" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2012 #1603 Hi, Shari, Dylan's period of convertion, when he wrote and sang "religion" songs began in 1978 (Slow Train Coming), although there were signs of this new interest in his previous LP, Street Legal, 1977 if i remember well. The Joni song you mention here was recorded in For The Roses, wich was released in october, 1972. Dylan`s christian period was yet to come then. Saludos, Miguel - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JMDL Digest" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:41 PM Subject: JMDL Digest V2012 #1603 > > JMDL Digest Thursday, October 25 2012 Volume 2012 : Number > 1603 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > All this talk about holiness [Shari Eaton > ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:40:40 -0700 > From: Shari Eaton > Subject: All this talk about holiness > > I only recently learned about Bob Dylan's God phase and haven't yet taken > the time to see what all of that was about but > > This morning I was singing through > > All this talk about holiness now > Must be the start of the latest style > Is it all books and words or do you really feel it? > Do you really laugh? > Do you really care? > Do you really smile when you smile? > > You criticize and you flatter. > Imitate the best (Woody Guthery) > And the rest you memorize (ouch) > You know the times you've impressed me most are the times when you don't > try. > When you don't even try. > > Do you think she was referring to Dylan here? > > I'd even venture to say this verse is directed toward him as well: > > > After the rush, when you come back down > You're always disappointed > Nothing seems to keep you high > Drive your bargains > Push your papers > Win your medals > Fuck your strangers > Don't it leave you on the empty side? > > Thoughts? > > > > Lots of Joni, > Shari > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2012 #1603 > ****************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, sendtojoni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:09:07 +0000 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau I apologize for responding to David's email before reading the Art Nouveau article, but this comment jumped out at me: I am also a devotee of the I Ching, and when you referred to Joni's rejection of the tourist position it reminded me of her adoption of the Wanderer as the I Ching symbol on her custom made guitar. As Our Lady of Duality she may think that she is at home everywhere, but also like the Wanderer, she does not have a home, and must humbly rely on strangers ... I plan on reading the article tonight when I get time ... :-) Susan Tierney McNamara email: sem8@cornell.edu - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of David J. Phillips Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 2:35 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau As both a joni fan and an academic occasionally reading and drawing from cultural and critical studies, i thought this was a *great* article. I have been uncomfortable with Joni's relation to race (and racism) for a long time, and I'm grateful for such a smart, graceful and fearless entree into the discussion. And I find Anita's comments spot on. More inline below.... On 24/10/12 13:4049, Anita G wrote: > > My main issue with the piece is that there seems an assumption that > Joni gained an elite position through creating 'Art'. Statements like > ... "I tell a story in which manipulations of perceived race and > genre were crucial in securing an exception" imply that Joni has been > 'successful' in tackling sexism through adopting the persona of Art, > which made her an exception. I think that's another big leap. > ...I wouldn't describe Joni as having been an exception to the music > business' sexism at any stage of her career, she never beat the white > rockers and she would be the first to say that the game hasn't > changed. I can't presume to speak for the author, but I read the article to suggest that Art provided, or expressed, or carved out an iconic position for Joni herself to successfully occupy. I don't think that anyone can ague that the record biz (or Joni herself) said "Oh! Joni! I get it! She's a self-authorized sexual predator." But it gave her (and her art) a place to be and to work from, engaging the industry on its own (sexist, racist) terms, while removing herself from the position of white girl folk singer. > I was uncomfortable with the fairly contemptuous dismissal of the > teachings of the Medicine Wheel. ... > > "In this racialized distribution of virtues, it would appear that > only chiefs and artists, such as Mitchell, are able to obtain > qualities from outside their own races store. Everyday people remain > stuck with the gifts and limitations of their racial cohort." > > As someone who has benefitted from the Teachings and is neither a > chief nor an artist I can say that this part strikes me as a > particularly cheap shot not worthy of the essay and not very > respectful to the Teachings. Everyone can benefit from learning from > each other and being mindful of the planet. Thanks for this comment, Anita. I have always been troubled by the racialized aspects of the Wheel. Knowing only what I've heard Joni utter about it, it has seemed to me to re-inforce the most banal racial tropes. But then I love the I Ching, which is, on one level, about as sexist and classist as you can imagine. I don't have much trouble now translating that into something useful, so I'm glad to have another perspective on the Wheel. I also have been troubled by Joni's tacit (and sometimes explicit) insistence that she is at the center, or at all parts, of the Wheel, black and white and red and yellow. Her rejection of the tourist position implies that she is at home everywhere, which strikes me as, at its worst, privileged and colonialist. Thank you all; thanks Joni; thanks Miles Parks Grier! and Miles, if you're following this, know I tried to drop you email saying how much i enjoyed the piece, but i couldn't find an address for you at Duke or Queens or NYU. djp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 18:34:18 -0400 From: jlhommedieu@insight.rr.com Subject: The Only Black Man at the Party In the new book, "JONI- The Creative Odyssey Of Joni Mitchell", Katherine Monk has a lot to say about this topic. She dissects Art Nouveau's origin and creation on the cover of Don Juan's Reckless Daughter but ignores the nude woman on the same cover. Katherine says that Joni never flaunted her sexuality but seems unaware that the cover of For The Roses was originally going to be the nude-faces-the-ocean shot. So far, the book is kind of un-nerving. Plus she jumps back and forth in time and quotes psychiatrists at length. If you are looking for a bio, this isn't it but she does get "the deeper meaning" like no one else I've read, anywhere. For years, I have had an inkling that her kind of analysis could be a book. Now it is here. Jim L ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 15:34:45 -0400 From: "David J. Phillips" Subject: Re: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau On 24/10/12 15:1620, Shari Eaton wrote: > Curious how you're uncomfortable with Joni's relation to racism. > >> Knowing only what I've heard Joni utter about it, it has seemed to >> me to re-inforce the most banal racial tropes. > > Not sure what you're referring to... > I'm referring to the association of directions with races and racial attributes: "as she elaborated in the concert film Painting with Words and Music, Mitchell believes the wheel distributes human qualities by the compass points of a racialized globe. Wisdom is of the North and the white race; heart comes from the soulful blacks of the South. Clarity is the gift of the Easts intelligent yellow race and introspection from the spiritual red men of the West (Fellezs 166; Tosoni)" (from the grier article) djp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 15:43:05 -0400 From: "David J. Phillips" Subject: Re: The Only Black Man at the Party/Art Nouveau (nit picky critique) This is a minor point, but I think that at one point Grier is just wrong: He quotes Joni as saying: "We're here tonight on behalf of one jive-ass nigger who could have been champion of the world and I'd like to introduce you to another one who is." and interprets this to mean that Mitchell was "calling a black manheavyweight champion and Black Muslim Muhammad Ali, no less!a jive-ass nigger" I think that Mitchell was comparing Hurricane (a jive ass nigger who aspired to be champion of the world) to Ali (who really was champion of the world). But ick pick. And now that I parse the quote again, I may be the one who is just wrong. It has happened before. djp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:29:51 -0700 From: Shari Eaton Subject: Re: joni and james I am drawing the link because I think her desire to play Roy Rogers' character was one of her first sought after forays into the glamorous world of image and story. She was incredibly young. The image of her in the outfit shows her at around 6 or 7. I am positing that since that experience, she perhaps always felt a man could come along and forbid or even flatly take away her right to play as well as lead in play. So she was fiercely protective of it. Even when all of the cells in her body are singing 'love, freedom, understanding' as they did during this point in her writing .. she held onto a fear that (I believe) stunted her growth. And I don't blame her for it .. I just think that it affected her love life rather tragically. Just my opinion, of course. On Oct 25, 2012, at 12:33 PM, Anita wrote: > On 25 Oct 2012, at 19:00, "Eaton, Shari" wrote: > >> I think the Roy Rogers role playing experience she had as a child set her up for strained relationships with men. > > Shari,I'm not sure I see the link you are making.Do you mean because they wouldn't let her be Roy Rogers? Or is it something else? > Anita ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2012 #360 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here:mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe