From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #342 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, November 25 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 342 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Song for Sharon ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" ] Re: Song for Sharon [gerard mclaughlin ] Re: Song for Sharon [gerard mclaughlin ] Re: Song for Sharon [Lori Fye ] Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #534 ["Anna T. Raner" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #534 [Lori Fye ] Re: How Do You Stop not written by Joni Mitchell [gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Song for Sharon Mr Peckham, That is illuminating. Mt daughter was born in 1990 I would have been 34, Joni would be well over 40. Was she trying throughout the Klein relationship? John >----Original Message---- >From: northern. muse@gmail.com >Date: 25/11/2011 21:52 >To: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" >Cc: , "gerard mclaughlin", "joni@smoe.org" >Subj: Re: Song for Sharon > >On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 2:19 PM, johnnybgoode@lineone.net < >johnnybgoode@lineone.net> wrote: > >> What I see as the elephant in the room is did she make a >> conscious choice not to be a mother again, once money was no object? >> > > >> >> Assuming you're talking about Joni, she and second husband Larry Klein >> suffered a miscarriage in, I believe, 1990. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:03:59 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Song for Sharon It's also more difficult for a woman than a man, IMO. There is traditionally an expectation that women are the nurturers, taking care of their men, most certainly in Joni's time.Although I think there have been some changes and improvements (I think of couples younger than me where both parents take parental leave and fathers at least appear to share the childraising equally with mothers), more is still expected from women in caring for a family, and every generation is influenced by the one preceding it so there's going to be some guilt if you try to swim against the flow. If you're a woman artist and you have a relationship with a man, you're more likely to sacrifice, or to be expected to sacrifice, your art for the sake of family. This is also often true in same-sex relationships, where one partner is generally more of the nurturing "motherly" type. As well, if one has a job that pays more than the other, that earner's job is often considered to be "more important" than the other's, so the one with less income usually ends up taking on most of the unpaid domestic work. I think it must be very difficult for any artist to be true to their muse and also to maintain a healthy relationship with another person but that it's more difficult for women, because of cultural/societal expectations and that, even knowing and wanting to pursue art over everything, a woman in such a relationship often feels torn. Joni has mentioned her grandmother who was musical who would act out anger over having to sacrifice her art to be a "good wife" (something about slamming or kicking a door comes to mind.) Having seen that, she would be fully aware of the expectation that a woman should give up her art in order to be a wife and mother. I believe she's still always attracted to men, and they to her, and it's always great at the beginning but somewhere, something has to give."We love our loving, but not like we love our freedom." Where there are two artists involved, there's also a clash between who's the greater or more important artist, I think and, although it's quite possible for them to support each other in an equitable relationship, there's usually an inequality and one ends up giving up part of themself for the sake of the other's career. That shouldn't be necessary and I suppose most relationships are unbalanced in any case, simply because people are messed up and flawed and not always sure what they really want, and then they have such difficulty articulating that (Most of us do not handle any kind of conflict well and either fight or acquiesce and then nurse our grievances) but sometimes it seems to work. I think of John Lennon and Yoko Ono who had their share of problems but where they seemed to have ended up with an artistic and family relationship that worked. (Of course, being extremely wealthy also helps.) And we don't call her Our Lady of Duality for nothing. Joni expresses very well in so many of her songs her mixed feeings about love and life. >________________________________ > From: gerard mclaughlin >To: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" >Cc: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11:20 AM >Subject: Re: Song for Sharon > >I think she was running away from all her commitments during this time. >Blue Motel Room tells of someone still clinging though, still bound and >tied to someone.Bound and tied is an interesting way to put it and might be >in accord with what you've just posted, John. Personally I think she just >couldn't hack anything anymore. The artist in turmoil striking out, running >away and going inside at the same time to find new ways of expressing >herself. Producing a startling work as a result in Hejira.Freedom has >always been big in Joni but she never seems to find it in relationships. I >haven't come accross many folk that do. She said in an interview that >Picasso always had a new woman for the start of each of his new periods and >she sort of likened herself to him there.Lots of actors get involved with >their leading opposites and after the wedding when the filming is over run >like hell away from it. I guess when you think what you do is who you are >you can make a lot of mistakes whether youre Joni Mitchell, Hugh Grant or >Picasso and people who can be of assistance in bolstering that delusion are >useful for as long as they're useful.Then it's time to move on and create >something else with somebody elses love to fuel your passion.When the job >comes first the people in your life always suffer. Ask any workaholic's >wife/partner/children/friends/mother...lol. A life at the top level in the >Arts must be really demanding of your time and resources let alone having >to commitedly live through the problems that come with a long term >relationship. Joni knew early on that she couldn't stop sticking her teeth >into the hands that brought her things she really couldn't give up just >yet even although all she really really wanted to do was to sing to the >sound hole and her knee. She got too sucked in by the industry to have a >normal life, whatever that is. Theres my tuppence worth. Tosh and bunkum >but I'll post it anyway as my reply to yours. > >On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 7:54 AM, johnnybgoode@lineone.net < >johnnybgoode@lineone.net> wrote: > >> All, >> >> >> Although the details are interesting this is a quite explicit >> and detailed song. It to my mind begs the question was Joni a >> commitment-phobe like a female Hugh Grant? Even though it is wrong to >> generalise from songs and "All I want" and "My Old Man" suggest the >> opposite. Perhaps it is too intrusive to pursue that line of thought? >> >> >> John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:46:36 +0000 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Song for Sharon I've never heard the 49. 29 will do me.Happy Thanksgiving, Joni and all listers. I've never now why Americans have Thanksgiving Day. Is it for the end of some war ? Of course I shoud google it. Confessing to my ignorance but enjoy your holiday everyone ! On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Betsy Blue wrote: > I'm loving all the discussion. Is it possible there was really a diamond > snake around Joni's arm, though? She doesn't seem like a tennis bracelet > kind of girl. > > The "put out to pasture" part is clicking now. It reminds me of her story > about race horses being shot. Was it For the Roses that she was talking > about? > > There are references to going to church for sinful pleasure earlier in the > song and then turning to the occult. Is that the right term? > > And then she reveals that she feels too selfish to put her energy into > family or charity. She just wants to indulge herself. Coke-fueled lust, I > suppose. > > Ah, speaking of cocaine on Thanksgiving reminds me to watch The Last Waltz > again. > > By the way, 29 is a prime number, the number of skaters. I did not like > the switch to 49 skaters. It threw my whole perception out the window to > think there could be seven neat groups of seven on the rink, even if they > were paired and unpaired. > > Betsy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:11:20 +0000 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Song for Sharon I think she was running away from all her commitments during this time. Blue Motel Room tells of someone still clinging though, still bound and tied to someone.Bound and tied is an interesting way to put it and might be in accord with what you've just posted, John. Personally I think she just couldn't hack anything anymore. The artist in turmoil striking out, running away and going inside at the same time to find new ways of expressing herself. Producing a startling work as a result in Hejira.Freedom has always been big in Joni but she never seems to find it in relationships. I haven't come accross many folk that do. She said in an interview that Picasso always had a new woman for the start of each of his new periods and she sort of likened herself to him there.Lots of actors get involved with their leading opposites and after the wedding when the filming is over run like hell away from it. I guess when you think what you do is who you are you can make a lot of mistakes whether youre Joni Mitchell, Hugh Grant or Picasso and people who can be of assistance in bolstering that delusion are useful for as long as they're useful.Then it's time to move on and create something else with somebody elses love to fuel your passion.When the job comes first the people in your life always suffer. Ask any workaholic's wife/partner/children/friends/mother...lol. A life at the top level in the Arts must be really demanding of your time and resources let alone having to commitedly live through the problems that come with a long term relationship. Joni knew early on that she couldn't stop sticking her teeth into the hands that brought her things she really couldn't give up just yet even although all she really really wanted to do was to sing to the sound hole and her knee. She got too sucked in by the industry to have a normal life, whatever that is. Theres my tuppence worth. Tosh and bunkum but I'll post it anyway as my reply to yours. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 7:54 AM, johnnybgoode@lineone.net < johnnybgoode@lineone.net> wrote: > All, > > > Although the details are interesting this is a quite explicit > and detailed song. It to my mind begs the question was Joni a > commitment-phobe like a female Hugh Grant? Even though it is wrong to > generalise from songs and "All I want" and "My Old Man" suggest the > opposite. Perhaps it is too intrusive to pursue that line of thought? > > > John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:45 -0600 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Song for Sharon > I've never now why Americans have Thanksgiving Day. Is it for the > end of some war ? That made me chuckle, Gerard. Thanks for the smile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#In_the_United_States Lori Tioga, ND ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:37:13 -0800 From: "Anna T. Raner" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #534 Sounds good to me. BTW, I have never posted here before. Sent from my iPad On Nov 16, 2011, at 10:34 PM, owner-joni-digest@smoe.org (JMDL Digest) wrote: > > JMDL Digest Thursday, November 17 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 534 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > if we go belly up [ava rosenblum ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:23:51 -0600 > From: ava rosenblum > Subject: if we go belly up > > should we informally decide that if it should go belly up b4 a back- > up plan in place, we'll discuss it on website bulletin board? > On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:37 PM, JMDL Digest wrote: > >> >> JMDL Digest Thursday, November 17 2011 Volume 2011 : >> Number 533 >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >> -------- >> Re: SMOE [Lori Fye >> ] >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:37:12 -0600 >> From: Lori Fye >> Subject: Re: SMOE >> >> My vote would be to continue with SMOE for the time being, with the >> suggestion that "we" (Les? anyone else have time to help Les with >> this?) >> research an alternative in case SMOE does eventually go "belly up." >> >> Lori, who doesn't have a lot of extra time but will do some >> research anyway, >> Tioga, ND >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of JMDL Digest V2011 #533 >> ***************************** >> >> ------- >> To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. >> Unsubscribe by clicking here: >> mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe >> ------- > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2011 #534 > ***************************** > > ------- > To post messages to the list, send to joni@smoe.org. > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 10:30:15 -0600 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #534 > Sounds good to me. BTW, I have never posted here before. Well then, WELCOME ANNA! Post more! Lori Tioga, ND ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:45:10 +0000 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: How Do You Stop not written by Joni Mitchell Am I glad to hear that How do you stop isn't a Joni song. I can just about bear it but never listen to it. That's a relief ! On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Kathy Johnson wrote: > On 2011-11-21, at 6:17 PM, Bob Muller wrote: > > > Hi Kate - Yvette in English is what she wrote with Crosby, I'm sure you > knew > that. > > Ha!! SURE I knew that!! Once upon a time. My memory ... I don't know what > to > blame these brain farts on... but anyway, it is always so nice to be able > to > come to this list and get straightened out! Thank you kindly for doing it > so > kindly. > > > the addition of Seal gives it a nice touch. Their voices are a great > blend. > The collaboration on his record ("If I Could") is better still. > > Yes, I love it. Wish I could find a video of the two of them singing it. > One > day ... ? > > And now, back to the chaos. A huge machine is digging a hole for a septic > tank > behind the house. It is parked right on part of my flowerbed. Boo hoo. But > ... > no more sewage/lagoon worries this winter for my taller half, so that will > be > a relief. A $5000 (or more) relief. > > I had better get out of my pj's and get started on the meatloaf I'm making > for > lunch for those hungry, cold men. This is one time I'm glad to be an unpaid > domestic servant as opposed to a construction worker or the (unpaid) man of > the house, i.e. maintenance and repair man. > > Do I digress? Yes indeedy. > > X's and O's to all, > Kate > > http://goldengrainfarm.blogspot.com > (my latest blog entry reveals a phone scam going around these parts; > probably > old hat to you net-savvy folks, but I have a lot of my mother's friends > reading my blog and they are innocents, especially when it comes to > computers. > They've no confidence and would likely fall for the scam hook, line and > sinker) ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #342 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe