From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #341 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, November 25 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 341 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Cameron Crowe and Joni [Michael Sentance ] Re: Song for Sharon [gerard mclaughlin ] Re: Song for Sharon [gerard mclaughlin ] Re: Song for Sharon ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: Cameron Crowe and Joni From the Hollywood Reporter: And he [Cameron Crowe] has another somewhat unexpected writing project lined up: an interview with Neil Young for Rolling Stone, the magazine that gave him his first break at age 15 (famously fictionalized in the 2000 film Almost Famous), which is slated to run next year. Hes also gathering interviews he conducted with many of rocks greatest -- from Zeppelin to [David] Bowie to Joni Mitchell -- for a compilation called Hamburgers for the Apocalypse. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 11:33:54 +0000 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Song for Sharon Song for Sharon. I read somewhere that Joni was on coke when she wrote it. Somehow a George Michael interview comes to mind. She seems to have been feeling stung by something in the song. Trying to find peace in a world where she could find none...bitten by the snake..sparkling snake climbing up her arm... towards her heart. She'd bitten the apple of temptation..success, fame, money while her friend Sharon still had her music and her family and her farm and by the sounds of it some peace which joni at the time of writing this song didn't seem to have.There's almost a prayer in her quoting from psalm twenty three except she's not praying she's more victimlike. There's a sense more of self pity. In Hejira although she is running she is not resolving. Her journey takes her down memory lane, into bed with coyote, someone elses man and through some hauntings by all the disappointments life in the cesspool has brought her. there is no real release in Joni's flight from the Big Apple. It has bitten her back. There's no getting back to the garden in running away.She had tasted it and running from it with its juices still in her belly was still intoxicated by it. Poisoned .Like the song "I can't get no satisfaction" this is a song of the ego.She tells of her ego in the title track and when she goes on later on tour she sees and tells us it has grown into a "Great big ego." Insight without resolution. There's something wrong. It seems everything is a mess. Thank gawd she had dinner on beaches and some fun breaks from her introspection.The poisoned apple kills so many princesses.I for one am still waiting to hear of her resolution. All the stuff since has been brilliant to mediocre but she stopped telling me how she was doing and got all caught up in causes. I would love an album that revisited the journey she was and obviously still is on....that we're all on but then that might be too sacred to share but honestly I'd love to know how/if that wonderful witness to modern life got there in her own words. She was walking down the aisle looking at all these folks she didn't even know dressed in the white dress and veil and thinking "I can get out of this." What a woman. OOO I love her. On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:56 AM, Mark wrote: > For some reason, somewhere in back of my cobweb infested head I have > always made some connection to the 23rd Psalm. 'He maketh me to lie down > in green pastures'. I always thought that if there is that connection, it > is purely superficial. Just borrowing from the Bible like countless other > writers have done. But now that somebody has mentioned the biblical > references in 'apple of temptation and a diamond snake around my arm', I am > beginning to wonder. I have fallen and been cast out but I'll get back to > Eden (the garden) some day? > > The song starts out in NYC and ends with green pastures. The two women's > lives are very different but Joni sees some similarity. Sharon still makes > music and sings for an audience of friends and family. Joni finds time for > solitude and reflection away from the limelight from time to time, . > > Mark in a very wet Seattle > (typical November weather) > -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:37 PM > > To: Bob Muller ; Betsy Blue ; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Song for Sharon > > I hadn't thought of it either, but it wouldn't surprise me that there > might be another meaning. Joni does that a lot. For some reason, though, > when I hear about "walking green pastures," it reminds me of someone dying. > It also reminds me of Roy Rogers and Dale Evans ("Happy trails to you".) > Maybe I'm thinking of the hymn, "The sweet by-and-by." It seems like the > kind of song Joni might have heard on the radio as a child (maybe played > just before the sign-off prayer?) I have no idea where I get that from, but > it just comes into my head when I hear that particular verse of "Song for > Sharon." > > > > > ______________________________**__ >> From: Bob Muller >> To: Betsy Blue ; "joni@smoe.org" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 6:28:28 PM >> Subject: Re: Song for Sharon >> >> > Song >> for Sharon? > >> >> I never thought of that but it certainly could be the case. >> The song is of course purely autobiographical. By the same token she could >> simply be referring to Sharon's green farmland as opposed to Joni's more >> metropolitan and hurried lifestyle at the time. >> >> Bob >> >> > Conference Call by The Bickering Coworkers> This sounds like a scream, I >> have >> to hear it! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:43:40 +0000 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Song for Sharon Always happy to raise a smile, Lori. Wikipedia is as clear as mud but I get the drift. Turkeys somehow never suggested harvest thanksgiving to me. We had a basket full of apples from which I made a delicious Eve's pudding. Sort of joni content here if we think of the Song for Sharon posts ! On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Lori Fye wrote: > > I've never now why Americans have Thanksgiving Day. Is it for the > > end of some war ? > > That made me chuckle, Gerard. Thanks for the smile. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#In_the_United_States > > Lori > Tioga, ND ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 20:19:43 +0000 (GMT) From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: Re: Song for Sharon All, Couldn't agree more. Fascinating comparison with John & Yoko, although they are definitely not of equal talent 10-0. Paul and Linda is almost a perfect example of the traditional male and female roles being acted out in a Rock Star scenario. Gerard has it right with the dynamic of the driven. Consuming the fuel of the relationship's passion in the nuclear reactor of composing/performing. It is both a blessing and a curse to be that talented, and their suffering gives us our pleasure. What I see as the elephant in the room is did she make a conscious choice not to be a mother again, once money was no object? John >----Original Message---- >From: anima_rising@yahoo.ca >Date: 25/11/2011 15:03 >To: "gerard mclaughlin", "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" >Cc: "joni@smoe. org" >Subj: Re: Song for Sharon > >It's also more difficult for a woman than a man, IMO. There is traditionally an expectation that women are the nurturers, taking care of their men, most certainly in Joni's time.Although I think there have been some changes and improvements (I think of couples younger than me where both parents take parental leave and fathers at least appear to share the childraising equally with mothers), more is still expected from women in caring for a family, and every generation is influenced by the one preceding it so there's going to be some guilt if you try to swim against the flow. If you're a woman artist and you have a relationship with a man, you're more likely to sacrifice, or to be expected to sacrifice, your art for the sake of family. This is also often true in same-sex relationships, where one partner is generally more of the nurturing "motherly" type. As well, if one has a job that pays more than the other, that earner's job is often considered to be > "more important" than the other's, so the one with less income usually ends up taking on most of the unpaid domestic work.B I think it must be very difficult for any artist to be true to their muse and also to maintain a healthy relationship with another person but that it's more difficult for women, because of cultural/societal expectations and that, even knowing and wanting to pursue art over everything, a woman in such a relationship often feels torn. Joni has mentioned her grandmother who was musical who would act out anger over having to sacrifice her art to be a "good wife" (something about slamming or kicking a door comes to mind.) Having seen that, she would be fully aware of the expectation that a woman should give up her art in order to be a wife and mother. I believe she's still always attracted to men, and they to her, and it's always great at the beginning but somewhere, something has to give."We love our loving, but not like we love our > freedom." Where there are two artists involved, there's also a clash between who's the greater or more important artist, I think and, although it's quite possible for them to support each other in an equitable relationship, there's usually an inequality and one ends up giving up part of themself for the sake of the other's career. That shouldn't be necessary and I suppose most relationships are unbalanced in any case, simply because people are messed up and flawed and not always sure what they really want, and then they have such difficulty articulating that (Most of us do not handle any kind of conflict well and either fight or acquiesce and then nurse our grievances) but sometimes it seems to work. I think of John Lennon and Yoko Ono who had their share of problems but where they seemed to have ended up with an artistic and family relationship that worked. (Of course, being extremely wealthy also helps.)B > >And we don't call her Our Lady of Duality for nothing. Joni expresses very well in so many of her songs her mixed feeings about love and life. > > > > >>________________________________ >> From: gerard mclaughlin >>To: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" >>Cc: joni@smoe.org >>Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11:20 AM >>Subject: Re: Song for Sharon >> >>I think she was running away from all her commitments during this time. >>Blue Motel Room tells of someone still clinging though, still bound and >>tied to someone.Bound and tied is an interesting way to put it and might be >>in accord with what you've just posted, John. Personally I think she just >>couldn't hack anything anymore. The artist in turmoil striking out, running >>away and going inside at the same time to find new ways of expressing >>herself. Producing a startling work as a result in Hejira.Freedom has >>always been big in Joni but she never seems to find it in relationships. I >>haven't come accross many folk that do. She said in an interview that >>Picasso always had a new woman for the start of each of his new periods and >>she sort of likened herself to him there.Lots of actors get involved with >>their leading opposites and after the wedding when the filming is over run >>like hell away from it. I guess when you think what you do is who you are >>you can make a lot of mistakes whether youre Joni Mitchell, Hugh Grant or >>Picasso and people who can be of assistance in bolstering that delusion are >>useful for as long as they're useful.Then it's time to move on and create >>something else with somebody elses love to fuel your passion.When the job >>comes first the people in your life always suffer. Ask any workaholic's >>wife/partner/children/friends/mother... lol. A life at the top level in the >>Arts must be really demanding of your time and resourcesB let alone having >>to commitedly live through the problems that come with a long term >>relationship. Joni knew early on that she couldn't stop sticking her teeth >>into the hands that brought her things she really couldn't give up just >>yet even although all she really really wanted to do was to sing to the >>sound hole and her knee. She got too sucked in by the industry to have a >>normal life, whatever that is. Theres my tuppence worth. Tosh and bunkum >>but I'll post it anyway as my reply to yours. >> >>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 7:54 AM, johnnybgoode@lineone.net < >>johnnybgoode@lineone.net> wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> >>> Although the details are interesting this is a quite explicit >>> and detailed song. It to my mind begs the question was Joni a >>> commitment-phobe like a female Hugh Grant? Even though it is wrong to >>> generalise from songs and "All I want" and "My Old Man" suggest the >>> opposite. Perhaps it is too intrusive to pursue that line of thought? >>> >>> >>> John ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #341 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe