From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #301 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, October 24 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 301 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #387 [Martha Winkel ] Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 ["johnnybgoode@lineone.net" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:34:30 -0400 From: Martha Winkel Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #387 Some information about the WWJMD posters in Toronto. Appears to be a reliable source, and reason. http://designkultur.wordpress.com/?p=38702&preview=true MWink ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:34:29 +0100 (BST) From: "johnnybgoode@lineone.net" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 Dear All, I have been enjoying the correspondence recently and it did stimulate me to buy a couple of Joni books, one of which was bWill you take me as I amb by Michelle Mercer. Mark Travisb comments on Court and Spark intrigued me in that I was 18 rather than Markbs 20 when I first became aware of C & S and Joni Mitchell and fell under her spell. Having had even less success with girls in 1974 as the bInbetweenersb (UK sitcom characters b US list members should google the series) did in 2011. Anyway, what I found very amusing given Markbs comments on insecurity, self- consciousness and loneliness, and the comfort he found in identifying with Jonibs lyrics. The introduction of Michelleb s book contains a hilarious btestb offered by Michelle and her ilk to prospective boyfriends, a sort of empathy calibration to find if the boy felt the same things about Joni as they did. There is no better example of the bWomen are from Venus Men are from Marsb divide than this. My own experience was that listening to the raw emotion and sad regret of Joni and other presentable female singer-songwriters was quite comforting and offered a kind of fantasy release; in reality the experience was all too prosaic. If by any chance one could meet a real girl like this, and you werenbt too boring to interest them, there would be the problem of how any relationship with these emotional wrecks could work in practice, and would one be thrown over within the day, let alone a week. So if Michelle and her friends girls had run their tests on Mitchell devotees like Mark or me, they would have had responses like how thrilling her vocal gymnastics were, or if only she didnbt go for the worst sort of bad boys and concentrated on spotty science students instead, shebd have been much happier. This might have been the case, even if there was some coincidence of views of the beautiful poetry and chord voicings. By contrast, what might be described as me running the test in reverse on girls (who are always more mature anyway), almost always went badly. One recognised (me as)an obsessive straight away, and made the rather unpalatable point that the vocal gymnastics were very similar. Nevertheless, it is good for us fans that the artist is the one that suffers for their art. I am always ready to excuse my lack of talent, creativity and originality on the grounds that I am too normal and happy. John >----Original Message---- >From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org >Date: 23/10/2011 05:10 >To: >Subj: JMDL Digest V2011 #388 > >JMDL Digest Sunday, October 23 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 388 > > > >========== > >TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >-------- > Re: Court and Spark ["Mark" ] > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:09:22 -0700 >From: "Mark" >Subject: Re: Court and Spark > >So much to respond to and so many thoughts running around my brain. Where >to start? What to say? > >Take a deep breath...... > >Bobsart, > >So many of those lyrics you cited from 'Court and Spark' were the very words >that compelled me to identify so strongly with Joni. I was around 20 at the >time I first heard them and not in any kind of what you would call a >romantic relationship. But I wanted so much to be in one. My insecurity >and self-consciousness, however, made that seem hopelessly out of reach. >Also the whole description of a one night stand in 'Down to You' was, >unfortunately, an all too familiar scenario for me in those days: > >You go down to the pick up station craving warmth and beauty >You settle for less than fascination >A few drinks later you're not so choosy >And the closing lights strip off the shadows on this strange new flesh >you've found >Clutching the night to you like a fig leaf you hurry to the blackness and >the blankets >To lay down an impression and your loneliness > >I felt so driven at that point of my life to find that connection, to lay >down my loneliness, that I would put myself through those sometimes >humiliating experiences. > >When I was in a particularly dark frame of mind 'I'm just living on nerves >and feelings with a weak and a lazy mind' felt like it fit me all too well. > >And 'I worry sometimes' is a mind set that plagues me to this very day. > >I guess I had some mental health issues back in those days! (I'm sure I >still do.) When Bob Muller first posted about that theme running through >'Court and Spark', I remember suggesting that an alternate title for the >album might be 'Love and Madness'. > >The conflict between commitment and freedom can be traced as far back as >'Cactus Tree' from Joni's very first album. I think fear is a significant >factor in that conflict. It could be fear of losing her artistic autonomy. >It could have grown out of her early initiation into the negative side of >sexual relationships - her out of wedlock pregnancy followed by the >defection of the baby's father, her subsequent marriage to another man and, >if we accept Joni's version of the story, her husband's betrayal. > >From 'Cactus Tree': > >Now she rallies her defenses >For she *fears* that one will ask her for eternity > >'I Don't Know Where I Stand' is all about her hesitancy to reveal her >feelings to a new lover. She is afraid that the feelings will not be >reciprocated. Hurt and disappointment will follow a rejection so she won't >send that 'I love you', written in her finest hand. > >From what Joni and Graham Nash have both said about their relationship, it >almost seems like Joni projected her own fear of commitment onto Graham in >the song 'Willy'. That's debatable I suppose in light of the photo of the >two of them riding in a car with Joni showing Graham the newly written >lyrics of 'Willy'. > >Muller mentioned 'Help Me' in relation to the theme of mental/emotional >instability that I also see running through all of 'Court and Spark'. That >'help me' springs from fear of 'that crazy feeling'. Her past experiences >of 'hard hot blazes' that have 'come down to smoke and ash' have made her >apprehensive and afraid of exposing herself to that emotional turmoil again. > >'The Same Situation' describes how love grants what can be a fearful power >to the object of that love. She refers directly to this power later on in >the song 'A Strange Boy' - 'I gave him power over me'. In 'The Same >Situation' she has given the man the power to pass judgment on her and thus >manipulate her emotions. He can either make her feel joy or inflict pain >and insecurity. > >So she longs for 'somebody who's strong' but adds the qualification 'and >somewhat sincere'. She wants 'a strong cat without claws'. She fears the >pain that can be inflicted by those claws. > >In the song 'Man to Man' from 'Wild Things Run Fast', the album that has >been branded by some as 'love happy', she sings > >When I saw you standing there >I was *scared*, I thought >Here's a place I could break down and care >I sure hope he can care >I hope I can really care > >And in 'Moon at the Window' she flat out declares 'and pleasure always turns >to fear, I find'. > >And yet she craved that connection and created that tension in her art that >Bobsart described. There is a thirst for love pulling her one way and a >need for freedom pulling her in the opposite direction. > >'She will love them when she sees them and she only means to please them' >but 'she's so busy being free. > >She described how sexual freedom was embraced in the late 60s and 70s in >that line 'We love our lovin' but not like we love our freedom'. > >In 'Hejira' she tells us 'We're only particles of change I know, I know, >orbiting around the sun' and then asks the question 'But how can I have that >point of view when I'm always bound and tied to someone?' > >Finally, my take on 'Miles of Aisles' is that either Joni or the people in >control of Asylum's marketing may have decided that it would be smarter not >to include a lot of material from a highly successful record that was still >a fairly recent release. 'People's Parties' may have been a teaser for >people who first joined the Joni Mitchell party with 'Court and Spark'. I >think it was Kakki who suggested that 'Miles of Aisles' was an opportunity >to create renewed interest in Joni's back catalogue. If that was the >strategy, in my case anyway, it worked. > >I'm sure there were other meanderings of my mind that I missed putting into >this. After I hit 'Send' and then re-read what I have written, I almost >always find something I wish I had added or changed. > >But eventually I say to myself 'Let go of it, Mark. Let it go.' > >Mark in Seattle >hitting 'Send' now > >- -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Sartorius >Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 10:28 AM >To: joni@smoe.org ; onlyjoni- digest@smoe.org >Cc: scjoniguy@yahoo.com >Subject: RE: Court and Spark > >Bob wrote: > >"The whole of C&S is multi-thematic I think, and one of the streams of theme >running through it is mental health. > >People's Parties - I told you when I met you I was CRAZY Help Me - When I >get this CRAZY feeling.... >Just Like This Train - Jealous lovin' will make you CRAZY > >And then the bookends that conclude the album - Trouble Child and Twisted; >one very heavy dealing with mental health issues and one very playful. > >As much as Hejira is my musical touchstone on any given day I'll call C&S my >favorite Joni." > > >Whoa - - there you go again, Bob, coming for "conversation". Amid the stretch >of six original recordings from Blue through Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, I >bet a majority of us could say the same about our favorite and our next >favorite on any given day, but there would be a pretty wide distribution of >answers for the favorite and next favorite. Heck, you could even throw in >LOTC and make it seven. At one time or another, I think I have loved all of >them the most. > >The mental health theme in Court and Spark rings true to me - I think the >songs reveal a vulnerability akin to her "Blue" recording period, which >cannot really be masked by the shift from solo performances to having a band >and a gang for support. > >Some additional bits of evidence (beyond those cited by Bob above): > >Court and Spark - "He saw how I worried sometimes, I worry sometimes" > >People's Parties (more) - "I'm just living on nerves and >feelings....fumbling deaf dumb and blind...I wish I had more sense of humor, >keeping the sadness at bay, throwing the lightness on these things, laughing >it all away...." > >The Same Situation - "You've had lots of lovely women, now you turn your >gaze to me, weighing the beauty and the imperfection to see if I'm worthy, >Like the church like a cop like a mother, you want me to be truthful >Sometimes you turn it one me like a weapon though and I need your approval". >This song has been speculated as her Warren Beatty song, but it could well >be Jackson Browne, in the context of Car on a Hill - especially the lines >"like a mother" and "weapon though, and I need your approval." > >Car on a Hill - "I watch for judgment anxiously" "I've been sitting up >waiting for my sugar to show......He said he'd be over three hours ago..... >now where in the city can that boy be?" And, if the "Girls Like Us" account >is accurate, these concerns bothered Joni more than a lot. > >Down to You - "Everything comes and goes, pleasure moves on too early and >trouble leaves too slow, just when you're thinking you've finally got it >made, bad news comes knocking at your garden gate". > >Just Like This Train (more) - "I went looking for a cause, or a strong cat >without claws, or any reason to resume......what are you gonna do now, >you've no one to give your love to". > >Another main theme - the search for love vs the struggle for higher position >- - runs through through several of the songs (continuing, as it were, where >she left off in For the Roses). > >In terms of inspiration, this album seems more and more to me to have been >influenced by her Jackson Browne period, much as her earlier records were >inspired by her Cohen, Nash and Taylor periods. I can picture that >relationship (and its end and aftermath) as the inspiration for Help Me, The >Same Situation, Car on a Hill, Down To You, Just Like This Train and Trouble >Child. > >Those tensions and themes - mental health, search for love vs art, the arc >of a specific relationship - fueled Joni's art. The more intense the >moments, the stronger the art, or so it seems to me. She was going through a >lot at that time - and a lot came out of her through it. > >One thing that has always raised my eyebrows - Miles of Aisles was recorded >and released after Court and Spark, and recorded during her "Court and Spark >Tour", yet Joni included only one C&S song on MOA. Does anybody know why? > > >Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:58:53 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Canadians: Re: Joni playing a solo acoustic show As long as I keep getting replies, I'll keep posting this offer. Now there's a volunteer in Canada, offering to burn these shows. If you are interested, let me know. I'll forward requests to rachel and burn the US requests here in Columbus, Ohio. Jim L'Hommedieu >Attention first time collectors and veterans... I'm burning a solo acoustic show from March 02, 1972 in Philadelphia, PA. This was after "Blue" but before "For The Roses" was released. It's Joni in a solo-acoustic setting playing piano, guitar and dulcimer. It's on 2 CDs and includes Jackson Browne's solo-acoustic opening set. No money will change hands. Sorry, but I've promised not to rip this show to mp3s. For details, write to me off list. Thanks goes out to simon for this fine show. There are some good stories like the one about Carey. - ---------------------- I'm also burning another show... Joni with James Taylor playing the BBC on Oct 29, 1970. This show is on one CD and includes my favorite performances (ever) of "California" and "Steamroller Blues". Send 3 blanks to get both shows. Thanks to simon for this show too.> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:44:34 +0000 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Court and Spark GREAT discussion ... but I have to disagree on several points ... there are very strong emotional dilemmas in a couple of the songs ... sometimes in portraiture (down to you and trouble child) and sometimes in first person (peoples parties, same situation, car on a hill) but I disagree that the album has a stream of mental health (or I guess you should say mental disease). From everything I've read about Joni and her struggles with depression they seem to be situational to not only her relationships but also what she feels are barriers to her artistic freedom and expression. The music business became a rat race to escape, plus her relationships brought about ego battles with men who were clearly engaged in the same strata of success that she was dealing with. I don't think a woman at this time with Joni's level of success could be described as having a mental disease. She actually dealt with sorrow and disappointment better than most (the supposed suicide attempt aside)... by creating some of the most beautiful expressions of the human dilemma that I've ever heard. This is not a crazy emotional woman wasting her life on bad relationships ... this is an artist of the highest caliber. Plus can I add that there are a number of other songs on Court & Spark that are not submerged in angst ... Court and Spark (an amazing love song), Free Man in Paris, Just Like this Train, and Raised on Robbery. Bob, I do like your comparison of Blue and C&S though ... both have those bare moments of emotion despite the difference of solo performance with full band. Nice point! Yeah, I love this list. Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Robert Sartorius Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 1:29 PM To: joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Cc: scjoniguy@yahoo.com Subject: RE: Court and Spark Bob wrote: "The whole of C&S is multi-thematic I think, and one of the streams of theme running through it is mental health. People's Parties - I told you when I met you I was CRAZY Help Me - When I get this CRAZY feeling.... Just Like This Train - Jealous lovin' will make you CRAZY And then the bookends that conclude the album - Trouble Child and Twisted; one very heavy dealing with mental health issues and one very playful. As much as Hejira is my musical touchstone on any given day I'll call C&S my favorite Joni." Whoa - there you go again, Bob, coming for "conversation". Amid the stretch of six original recordings from Blue through Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, I bet a majority of us could say the same about our favorite and our next favorite on any given day, but there would be a pretty wide distribution of answers for the favorite and next favorite. Heck, you could even throw in LOTC and make it seven. At one time or another, I think I have loved all of them the most. The mental health theme in Court and Spark rings true to me - I think the songs reveal a vulnerability akin to her "Blue" recording period, which cannot really be masked by the shift from solo performances to having a band and a gang for support. Some additional bits of evidence (beyond those cited by Bob above): Court and Spark - "He saw how I worried sometimes, I worry sometimes" People's Parties (more) - "I'm just living on nerves and feelings....fumbling deaf dumb and blind...I wish I had more sense of humor, keeping the sadness at bay, throwing the lightness on these things, laughing it all away...." The Same Situation - "You've had lots of lovely women, now you turn your gaze to me, weighing the beauty and the imperfection to see if I'm worthy, Like the church like a cop like a mother, you want me to be truthful Sometimes you turn it one me like a weapon though and I need your approval". This song has been speculated as her Warren Beatty song, but it could well be Jackson Browne, in the context of Car on a Hill - especially the lines "like a mother" and "weapon though, and I need your approval." Car on a Hill - "I watch for judgment anxiously" "I've been sitting up waiting for my sugar to show......He said he'd be over three hours ago..... now where in the city can that boy be?" And, if the "Girls Like Us" account is accurate, these concerns bothered Joni more than a lot. Down to You - "Everything comes and goes, pleasure moves on too early and trouble leaves too slow, just when you're thinking you've finally got it made, bad news comes knocking at your garden gate". Just Like This Train (more) - "I went looking for a cause, or a strong cat without claws, or any reason to resume......what are you gonna do now, you've no one to give your love to". Another main theme - the search for love vs the struggle for higher position - - runs through through several of the songs (continuing, as it were, where she left off in For the Roses). In terms of inspiration, this album seems more and more to me to have been influenced by her Jackson Browne period, much as her earlier records were inspired by her Cohen, Nash and Taylor periods. I can picture that relationship (and its end and aftermath) as the inspiration for Help Me, The Same Situation, Car on a Hill, Down To You, Just Like This Train and Trouble Child. Those tensions and themes - mental health, search for love vs art, the arc of a specific relationship - fueled Joni's art. The more intense the moments, the stronger the art, or so it seems to me. She was going through a lot at that time - and a lot came out of her through it. One thing that has always raised my eyebrows - Miles of Aisles was recorded and released after Court and Spark, and recorded during her "Court and Spark Tour", yet Joni included only one C&S song on MOA. Does anybody know why? Bobsart ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #301 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe