From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #293 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, October 19 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 293 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Trouble Child [Robin Adler ] New Library item: THE CLINTON WEEKEND [TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com] Re: Happy Birthday Laura Nyro (October 18th) (LJC) [Michael quebec ] Malibu House... [Chris Treacy ] Re: Malibu House... [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Trouble Child ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Trouble Child [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Malibu House... [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Happy Birthday Laura Nyro [Lieve Reckers ] Trouble ChildonlyJMDL Digest V2011 #292 ["Robert Sartorius" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:23:01 -0700 From: Robin Adler Subject: Trouble Child First, thanks so much Sue, Chuck, Mags, Stewart, Kakki and Mark for participating in this discussion. Each of you has helped shed a little more light on the meaning of this song for me. Mark, I also thought of Nurse Ratched. Also, James Taylor comes to mind. She probably knew of his time spent in a psychiatric hospital for depression and certainly his drug addiction. Now, lying in bed I can't seem to get The Last Time I Saw Richard out of my head. Whew! Love to you all, Robin On Oct 17, 2011, at 9:02 PM, Mark wrote: > Crosby popped into my mind, Kakki, and it is probably because, as you mentioned, his name came up in other discussions of this song. > > I've always felt there was more empathy in the song than lecturing even though the final line before the repeated 'trouble child breaking like the waves at Malibu' is 'you know it's really hard to talk sense to you'. Even though Joni is addressing the subject of the song in the 2nd person 'you', she seems to be seeing things from that subject's point of view. > > There was no Betty Ford Center at the time the song was written and I'm not sure the term 'rehab ' had entered the vernacular yet. It seems obvious that this person is in some kind of medical/psychiatric/institutional type of setting - 'up in a sterilized room where they let you be lazy.' Not exactly a comforting or comfortable place to be. Whether it be substance abuse or severe depression he (I think the lines 'the peacock is afraid to parade, you're under the thumb of the maid' and the reference to the lion that Kakki pointed out indicate that the song is about a male) has reached a breaking point. He may be weak and spacey from exhaustion following detox or he could be doing the 'Thorazine Shuffle'. He's feeling powerless, unable to confront his demons or the authority-controlled situation that he sees himself in, 'the dragon shining with all values known, dazzling you keeping you from your own.' The peacock being under the thumb of the maid maybe feels somewhat emasculated as well. Those lines always make me think of Nurse Ratched in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'. > > This guy is lost and can't admit it or find his own way although he knows his 'attitude's all wrong'. But, as the song says, change in a person's attitude, patterns of thought and behavior aren't easy. The man's outlook is self-defeating and bleak. Life seems unbearable but, even if he has self-destructive tendencies, he is incapable of making a deliberate attempt to end it. He doesn't trust his care-givers or those treating him. 'They open and close you and they talk like they know you. They don't know you. They're friends and they're foes too.' There is no comfort in spiritual guidance of the religious variety since he 'can't seem to believe it'. He is jolted by the feeling that none of his personal relationships are permanent or meaningful - 'only a river of changing faces looking for an ocean'. That river of faces seems to trickle through his 'leaky plans', taking yet 'another dream over the dam' and he feels like his 'right to be human is going over too'. In his head, the words 'you know it's really hard to talk sense to you' are the ineffective words of a scolding parent to a 'trouble child'. Something he has heard some version of for most of his life. > > Waves are regular and repetitive. That suggests to me either relapses into substance abuse or recurring incidents of mental breakdown that have become almost predictable in their regularity. But I've never been sure about that. 'Breaking like the waves at Malibu' could mean so many different things. > > The choice of the word 'trouble' as opposed to 'troubled' is interesting to me. Apparently the subject is viewed as trouble as opposed to being troubled. It occurs to me that if Joni is implying that the subject of the song has always been made to feel this way about himself - that is he is trouble - it puts a more sympathetic spin on the song. If she is saying that the guy's behavior is that of a child always causing trouble and pain in the lives of those close to him, the lyric could very well be a good dashing of cold water in his face. > > Mark in Seattle > going on too long as always > > -----Original Message----- From: kbhla > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:52 PM > To: robinadler@sbcglobal.net ; 'Joni List' > Subject: Trouble Child > > Hi Robin, > > > > I recall that we did have extended discussions about Trouble Child here a > long time ago. I had always thought that Joni was speaking personally in > the song because it seemed to relate to her escaping to Canada in the early > 70s to get away from the music business and get over her broken heart (James > Taylor). She has spoken in interviews of that period in her life being dark > and depressing but she eventually healed and came back to "the world" with > the brilliant For The Roses album. > > > > However, there is another take on Trouble Child that I believed was > discussed long ago. Somewhere it was revealed that Joni wrote the song > about David Crosby, who was going through some hard core depression after > the tragic death of his girlfriend, drug addiction and problems with the law > during that time (and into the early 80s, too) and had been hospitalized at > times. I know I've read this from an authoritative source and think it may > have come from one of David's autobiographies or perhaps other CSN bios. At > the time, many of Crosby's friends were trying to help him into recovery. I > did a search on the articles/interviews with Joni on JM.com and it did not > readily come up, so maybe it was from a Crosby related source. What makes > it seem possible is the line "where is the lion in you to defy him when > you're this weak and this spacey." Crosby is a Leo. On another note, both > Crosby and Nash sang backround vocals on a few of the songs on Court & > Spark. > > > > Maybe someone out there can shed more light on the meaning. I don't think > there is a way to search the old smoe.org archives but there is lots of > discussion of the song there. > > > > So happy to hear of your good groove with your "new" bandmate, too ;-) > > > > Kakki > > thanks, Robin - ------------------------------------------------- New CD available now! "Safaris to the Heart: The Songs of Joni Mitchell" by Robin Adler & Mutts of the Planet. To listen or learn more: http://www.reverbnation.com/robinadlermuttsoftheplanet To purchase: http://www.robinadler.com/products.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:24:11 -0600 (MDT) From: TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com Subject: New Library item: THE CLINTON WEEKEND Title: THE CLINTON WEEKEND Publication: JaneFonda.com Date: 2011.10.17 http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2441 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:09:38 +0000 From: Michael quebec Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Laura Nyro (October 18th) (LJC) Gary - so cool to see that video and see young Laura singing. I had the great fortune to catch her show, solo on electric piano in a small joint in Marin County during the summer of 1990. I'll never forget that. She was loved by many. Michael in Quebec Gary wrote: I know many of you may have seen this before, but I always see something new in it, I guess because it is so rare. In honor of Laura Nyro's birthday tomorrow, I'm sending along this video that appears to only be available today and tomorrow, so if you love her, like her, or are just curious, have a look at this wonderful woman we've lost. She's one of the few artists that Joni always spoke favorably of. I apologize in advance for those who may not appreciate the little Joni content in this message! http://www.myspace.com/video/laurishkan/one-day-only/108270114#pm_cmp=O_5102_ notif Happy Birthday, Laura! We love you and miss you! Gary Z. Detroit ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:49:10 -0500 From: Chris Treacy Subject: Re: Malibu House... I'd definitely be interested in hearing more. :-) Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > It turns out Joni actually owns A LOT of properties, mostly in L.A. I think Kakki can tell us more on that as she looked up the real estate records. > > Dave > > > > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 1:22 AM, Chris Treacy wrote: > >> Hmmm, I dunno about this. I've been to JM's house in Bel Air, not as an invited guest but more as a stalker... Wally nearly stopped speaking to me after I beat him up on the phone for an hour to get the proper address out of him. Anyway, I thought the Bel Air house was the only other CA home she'd owned besides the Canyon house, and in between she'd lived with Geffen (which is where much of C&S was written). Just my two cents, if anyone knows better/different, I'm all ears! >> >> Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 03:22:50 -0500 From: Chris Treacy Subject: Malibu House... Hmmm, I dunno about this. I've been to JM's house in Bel Air, not as an invited guest but more as a stalker... Wally nearly stopped speaking to me after I beat him up on the phone for an hour to get the proper address out of him. Anyway, I thought the Bel Air house was the only other CA home she'd owned besides the Canyon house, and in between she'd lived with Geffen (which is where much of C&S was written). Just my two cents, if anyone knows better/different, I'm all ears! Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:05:20 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Malibu House... Apparently there was a beachfront house that she lived in in the early/mid 80s. I seem to recall reading an article about her painting in the beachfront house with a broken leg (obviously she was using a brush to paint, not the broken leg). Jamie Zubairi Sent from my iPhone On 18 Oct 2011, at 09:22, Chris Treacy wrote: > Hmmm, I dunno about this. I've been to JM's house in Bel Air, not as an invited guest but more as a stalker... Wally nearly stopped speaking to me after I beat him up on the phone for an hour to get the proper address out of him. Anyway, I thought the Bel Air house was the only other CA home she'd owned besides the Canyon house, and in between she'd lived with Geffen (which is where much of C&S was written). Just my two cents, if anyone knows better/different, I'm all ears! > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:46:45 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Trouble Child Hi Robin, I think Kakki and Mark did a fine job on Trouble Child. Maybe Lindsay Moon will weigh in because she transcribed lots of the interviews. I had some success using the search box on the Library page: http://jonimitchell.com/library/searchtext.cfm It seems to work better than the search on the main page for some reason. To me, it's about a woman who checks into an inpatient situation. I don't think Joni did that but maybe she saw some of herself in that situation because I think "Court and Spark" was soon after she had her bout with depression. When I hear "trouble child" I think she meant "troubled child" because I don't think the subject of the story is beyond help. I don't think the subject is a lost cause. To me, the author is seeing the inadequate side of mental health care. There are no quick fixes. To me, the subject sounds like she's having depression more than drug addiction but that could just be me, projecting my depression on the story. Jim L'Hommedieu np on the iPod: "Mary" that sad song by what's her name... Patty Griffin. My Lord, that's a beautiful song, especially with Emmylou on back vocals. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:28:03 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Trouble Child Interesting how the dragon is in opposition to the lion who is too weak to defy "him". Sounds like heraldry to me: a dragon facing a lion (or griffin) is frequently found on a heraldic crest, with the dragon representing both power and evil and the lion representing good (and in the Narnia tales Christianity.) Not sure where I'm going with this but the dragon/lion pairing has me thinking about where I've seen this before. Dave On Oct 17, 2011, at 9:02 PM, Mark wrote: > Crosby popped into my mind, Kakki, and it is probably because, as you mentioned, his name came up in other discussions of this song. > > I've always felt there was more empathy in the song than lecturing even though the final line before the repeated 'trouble child breaking like the waves at Malibu' is 'you know it's really hard to talk sense to you'. Even though Joni is addressing the subject of the song in the 2nd person 'you', she seems to be seeing things from that subject's point of view. > > There was no Betty Ford Center at the time the song was written and I'm not sure the term 'rehab ' had entered the vernacular yet. It seems obvious that this person is in some kind of medical/psychiatric/institutional type of setting - 'up in a sterilized room where they let you be lazy.' Not exactly a comforting or comfortable place to be. Whether it be substance abuse or severe depression he (I think the lines 'the peacock is afraid to parade, you're under the thumb of the maid' and the reference to the lion that Kakki pointed out indicate that the song is about a male) has reached a breaking point. He may be weak and spacey from exhaustion following detox or he could be doing the 'Thorazine Shuffle'. He's feeling powerless, unable to confront his demons or the authority-controlled situation that he sees himself in, 'the dragon shining with all values known, dazzling you keeping you from your own.' The peacock being under the thumb of the maid maybe feels somewhat emasculated as well. Those lines always make me think of Nurse Ratched in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'. > > This guy is lost and can't admit it or find his own way although he knows his 'attitude's all wrong'. But, as the song says, change in a person's attitude, patterns of thought and behavior aren't easy. The man's outlook is self-defeating and bleak. Life seems unbearable but, even if he has self-destructive tendencies, he is incapable of making a deliberate attempt to end it. He doesn't trust his care-givers or those treating him. 'They open and close you and they talk like they know you. They don't know you. They're friends and they're foes too.' There is no comfort in spiritual guidance of the religious variety since he 'can't seem to believe it'. He is jolted by the feeling that none of his personal relationships are permanent or meaningful - 'only a river of changing faces looking for an ocean'. That river of faces seems to trickle through his 'leaky plans', taking yet 'another dream over the dam' and he feels like his 'right to be human is going over too'. In his head, the words 'you know it's really hard to talk sense to you' are the ineffective words of a scolding parent to a 'trouble child'. Something he has heard some version of for most of his life. > > Waves are regular and repetitive. That suggests to me either relapses into substance abuse or recurring incidents of mental breakdown that have become almost predictable in their regularity. But I've never been sure about that. 'Breaking like the waves at Malibu' could mean so many different things. > > The choice of the word 'trouble' as opposed to 'troubled' is interesting to me. Apparently the subject is viewed as trouble as opposed to being troubled. It occurs to me that if Joni is implying that the subject of the song has always been made to feel this way about himself - that is he is trouble - it puts a more sympathetic spin on the song. If she is saying that the guy's behavior is that of a child always causing trouble and pain in the lives of those close to him, the lyric could very well be a good dashing of cold water in his face. > > Mark in Seattle > going on too long as always > > -----Original Message----- From: kbhla > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:52 PM > To: robinadler@sbcglobal.net ; 'Joni List' > Subject: Trouble Child > > Hi Robin, > > > > I recall that we did have extended discussions about Trouble Child here a > long time ago. I had always thought that Joni was speaking personally in > the song because it seemed to relate to her escaping to Canada in the early > 70s to get away from the music business and get over her broken heart (James > Taylor). She has spoken in interviews of that period in her life being dark > and depressing but she eventually healed and came back to "the world" with > the brilliant For The Roses album. > > > > However, there is another take on Trouble Child that I believed was > discussed long ago. Somewhere it was revealed that Joni wrote the song > about David Crosby, who was going through some hard core depression after > the tragic death of his girlfriend, drug addiction and problems with the law > during that time (and into the early 80s, too) and had been hospitalized at > times. I know I've read this from an authoritative source and think it may > have come from one of David's autobiographies or perhaps other CSN bios. At > the time, many of Crosby's friends were trying to help him into recovery. I > did a search on the articles/interviews with Joni on JM.com and it did not > readily come up, so maybe it was from a Crosby related source. What makes > it seem possible is the line "where is the lion in you to defy him when > you're this weak and this spacey." Crosby is a Leo. On another note, both > Crosby and Nash sang backround vocals on a few of the songs on Court & > Spark. > > > > Maybe someone out there can shed more light on the meaning. I don't think > there is a way to search the old smoe.org archives but there is lots of > discussion of the song there. > > > > So happy to hear of your good groove with your "new" bandmate, too ;-) > > > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:29:36 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Malibu House... It turns out Joni actually owns A LOT of properties, mostly in L.A. I think Kakki can tell us more on that as she looked up the real estate records. Dave On Oct 18, 2011, at 1:22 AM, Chris Treacy wrote: > Hmmm, I dunno about this. I've been to JM's house in Bel Air, not as an invited guest but more as a stalker... Wally nearly stopped speaking to me after I beat him up on the phone for an hour to get the proper address out of him. Anyway, I thought the Bel Air house was the only other CA home she'd owned besides the Canyon house, and in between she'd lived with Geffen (which is where much of C&S was written). Just my two cents, if anyone knows better/different, I'm all ears! > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:08:18 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Laura Nyro I was a bit reluctant to bring this up because it may seem rather nerdy and prurient, but guess it is a normal observation: there seems to be an inconsistency between the apparent date of this film and the age Laura says she is. According to Wikipedia, Laura was born on October 18, 1947 and died aged 49 on April 8, 1997, and that she died from ovarian cancer which was identified in 1996. But in the film, which indeed feels like she is making her own obituary, she says she is aged 47, which just does not seem possible, because that would mean the film would have to have been recorded between October 1994 and October 1995, when she was not even aware of the cancer and probably feeling fine... So was she simply lying about her age and making herself 2 years younger (but why mention her age at all, in that case?) or was she also going through a serious health scare 2 years before her death? In any case, thanks for sharing Gry, it is indeed very moving. Lieve in London >________________________________ >From: Rob Steen >To: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Tuesday, 18 October 2011, 9:34 >Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Laura Nyro > >Thanks a zillion, Gary Z, for that marvellous, beyond-the-grave connection. The lump in my throat could sink Gibraltar, not least since the interview clearly took place when Laura knew death was around the corner. All hail the world's greatest Catholic Jew, not to say the one peer Joni (rightly) looked up to and drew inspiration from. > >Love > >Rob > > - ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Gary Z. > To: joni > Cc: > Sent: Monday, 17 October 2011, 20:26 > Subject: Happy Birthday Laura Nyro (October 18th) (LJC) > > I know many of you may have seen this before, but I always see something > new in it, I guess because it is so rare. In honor of Laura Nyro's > birthday tomorrow, I'm sending along this video that appears to only be > available today and tomorrow, so if you love her, like her, or are just > curious, have a look at this wonderful woman we've lost. She's one of > the few artists that Joni always spoke favorably of. I apologize in > advance for those who may not appreciate the little Joni content in this > message! > > http://www.myspace.com/video/laurishkan/one-day-only/108270114#pm_cmp=O_5102_notif > > > > Happy Birthday, Laura! We love you and miss you! > > Gary Z. > Detroit> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:20:56 -0400 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: Trouble ChildonlyJMDL Digest V2011 #292 Mark wrote: "The choice of the word 'trouble' as opposed to 'troubled' is interesting to me. Apparently the subject is viewed as trouble as opposed to being troubled. It occurs to me that if Joni is implying that the subject of the song has always been made to feel this way about himself - that is he is trouble - it puts a more sympathetic spin on the song. If she is saying that the guy's behavior is that of a child always causing trouble and pain in the lives of those close to him, the lyric could very well be a good dashing of cold water in his face." I like Mark's observation and agree with his analysis. Taking the hypothesis a step further, we know that Joni has always been fond of the Marvin Gaye song "Trouble Man", which she performed for her Painting With Words and Music concert DVD. It would not surprise me if this title were a deliberate variation by Joni on that earlier title. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:25:06 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Trouble Child I don't know what the hard evidence is, but I always think of Crosby when I hear it. Also the line "looking for an ocean". RR > What makes > it seem possible is the line "where is the lion in you to defy him when > you're this weak and this spacey." Crosby is a Leo. On another note, > both > Crosby and Nash sang backround vocals on a few of the songs on Court & > Spark. > > > Kakki ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #293 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe