From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #227 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, August 15 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 227 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: authenticity, now SJC [Mike Pritchard ] Re: authenticity, now SJC [Anita G ] Re: authenticity, now SJC [Dave Blackburn ] make an income online today. [Jahida Jorganes ] Questions... [Sam Stone ] Re: Questions... [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:47:43 +0200 From: Mike Pritchard Subject: Re: authenticity, now SJC Dave threw this into the pot: >>Our culture is founded on the ersatz. As a result, "the watchful ones among the slaves know all that's genuine will be scorned and conned and cast away." In reaction, we, the watchful ones, make it a point to seek out the genuine, the authentic, the original, what they call the "Ur text" in Lit Crit. << Nothing to say against this, although my original question was specifically about authenticity, not originality, although they can be hard to separate, I know. I should probably make clear that I personally do not doubt the authenticity of Gillian and Daves songs; if I had heard them on the radio without knowing their names I would not have thought them inauthentic or false (I would have believed them, in Lama's words) , but it seems that originally, at least with their first album, some people questioned the authenticity of G&D, not enough, I would hope, to prevent them from enjoying the songs or buying the albums. Getting back to Lit Crit, which is what inspired my original question, I was thinking not of the Ur text, but more about the field of Subaltern writings, or Writing the Other. Anita made a good point about the Magdalene Laundries and I replied to her, pointing out the difference I see between representing people who are/were unable to articulate their thoughts in such a poignant, pointed way as Joni does in her song, and Gillian presenting herself as if she were a country girl. I think this is not a pedantic point. People from marginalised groups have frequently reacted negatively to their ideas and feelings being (mis)appropriated by other, more mainstream artists. This also (especially?) exists in the academy. Heres what bell hooks has to say on the relationship between the academic and the subaltern subject: >>No need to hear your voice when I can talk about you better than you can speak about yourself. No need to hear your voice. Only tell me about your pain. I want to know your story. And then I will tell it back to you in a new way. Tell it back to you in such a way that it has become mine, my own. Re-writing you I write myself anew. I am still author, authority. I am still colonizer, the speaking subject and you are now at the center of my talk.<< I do not think it is *too* much of a stretch to see the people who felt that G&D were not authentic as the colonised, the subaltern, and therefore to see, in their eyes, G&D as the colonisers, coming in from elsewhere and singing the (inauthentic?) experiences of farmers, miners, cotton and tobacco pickers etc. Even though these people probably hadnt read Gramsci, hooks and Spivak, they would probably understand where they were coming from, intellectually speaking. mike in bcn np Pat Metheny Giant Steps ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:12:10 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: authenticity, now SJC I have so enjoyed reading all these ideas - from Dave's take on culture, Jim on the blues, Sue on the blue grass, through to Mark's wonderful description of seeing KD Lang for the first time (gosh, how that resonated with me), Miles' various definitions, Em (and me) not being sure if we made 'sense', Ron's brevity (I could certainly learn from that) and then Mike (who started this one off) comes up with this quote that really, ironically, expresses so beautifully the words I so wish I could have found: On 14 August 2011 11:47, Mike Pritchard wrote: > >>>No need to hear your voice when I can talk about you better than you can > speak about yourself. No need to hear your voice. Only tell me about your > pain. I want to know your story. And then I will tell it back to you in a > new way. Tell it back to you in such a way that it has become mine, my own. > Re-writing you I write myself anew. I am still author, authority. I am still > colonizer, the speaking subject and you are now at the center of my talk.<< > Mike, I'd love to read more. Can you kindly refer me to this book/link? It summarises beautifully the essence of a writer changing - - but also being changed by the contact between themself (as a writer) and a listener. It also offers me more insight into what I think may be the existential givens that operate beneath the contact. What's been a parallel process within this Authenticity thread is that I have been changed by the discussion and ideas within it. It offers further exploration of what goes on in the spaces between a singer/song writer and a listener. It has offered some insight into the processes at work in us as we individually experience singers and their music and words as 'authentic'. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 08:31:57 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: authenticity, now SJC That's awesome Mike, as we say in California. What an erudite group we have here! I suspect I have been conflating authenticity, originality and genuine-ness, both in my mind and in my contribution to this great thread (for which many thanks, Mike). I'm beginning to see that they are not to be confused. Originality and authenticity, at least, are not the same; indeed you can have one without the other. But they are both aspects of art that the thoughtful viewer/listener seeks out in the art they enjoy, I would say. I do think there is more to be said about the "illusion of authenticity" (jim's phrase). Some people, musicians included, are very good at producing dead-on replicas (the Chinese?!) of things that are deemed authentic by the culture at large. Sometimes the replicas even become as "authentic", or more, than the thing they began imitating (again the Chinese, and their now total command of European classical music). What I'm saying is the line of demarcation is not obvious. Even in politics one person may feel total authenticity coming from, let's say, a public figure making a speech and be eager to vote for them based on that feeling, while to others it is plain as day he/she is a charlatan and downright liar. We each have our own authenticity filters, I suspect, and calibrate them individually. Any thoughts on that? We picked up Lieve from San Diego airport last night and whisked her straight to our Joni gig with Barnaby. We had a room full of people calling out requests and singing along. The fun week leading up to Joni's Jazz on Wednesday has officially begun! Dave On Aug 14, 2011, at 3:47 AM, Mike Pritchard wrote: > Dave threw this into the pot: > >>> Our culture is founded on the ersatz. As a result, "the watchful ones > among the slaves know all that's genuine will be scorned and conned and cast > away." In reaction, we, the watchful ones, make it a point to seek out the > genuine, the authentic, the original, what they call the "Ur text" in Lit > Crit. << > > Nothing to say against this, although my original question was specifically > about authenticity, not originality, although they can be hard to separate, > I know. I should probably make clear that I personally do not doubt the > authenticity of Gillian and Daves songs; if I had heard them on the radio > without knowing their names I would not have thought them inauthentic or > false (I would have believed them, in Lama's words) , but it seems that > originally, at least with their first album, some people questioned the > authenticity of G&D, not enough, I would hope, to prevent them from enjoying > the songs or buying the albums. > > Getting back to Lit Crit, which is what inspired my original question, I was > thinking not of the Ur text, but more about the field of Subaltern > writings, or Writing the Other. Anita made a good point about the > Magdalene Laundries and I replied to her, pointing out the difference I see > between representing people who are/were unable to articulate their > thoughts in such a poignant, pointed way as Joni does in her song, and > Gillian presenting herself as if she were a country girl. I think this is > not a pedantic point. People from marginalised groups have frequently > reacted negatively to their ideas and feelings being (mis)appropriated by > other, more mainstream artists. This also (especially?) exists in the > academy. Heres what bell hooks has to say on the relationship between the > academic and the subaltern subject: > >>> No need to hear your voice when I can talk about you better than you can > speak about yourself. No need to hear your voice. Only tell me about your > pain. I want to know your story. And then I will tell it back to you in a > new way. Tell it back to you in such a way that it has become mine, my own. > Re-writing you I write myself anew. I am still author, authority. I am still > colonizer, the speaking subject and you are now at the center of my talk.<< > > I do not think it is *too* much of a stretch to see the people who felt that > G&D were not authentic as the colonised, the subaltern, and therefore to > see, in their eyes, G&D as the colonisers, coming in from elsewhere and > singing the (inauthentic?) experiences of farmers, miners, cotton and > tobacco pickers etc. Even though these people probably hadnt read Gramsci, > hooks and Spivak, they would probably understand where they were coming > from, intellectually speaking. > > mike in bcn > np Pat Metheny Giant Steps ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:14:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jahida Jorganes Subject: make an income online today. Hey u if you wanna gain an income from your house look at www.timesnewswebsite.org/?Wc/212642 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:44:24 -0400 From: Sam Stone Subject: Questions... Hi everyone, I'm doing a very special report about alternate tunings and Joni's guitar style. Does anyone know where I can find out about the history of alternate tunings? Also, and this may be pushing it, does anyone know how I can contact Joni directly? Thanks so much, Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:09:55 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Questions... There is a great article in the archives from the Acoustic Guitar Mag Interview. Also Marian Russell's charts and reserach is there in the guitar section and is invaluable. Best Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Sam Stone wrote: Hi everyone, I'm doing a very special report about alternate tunings and Joni's guitar style. Does anyone know where I can find out about the history of alternate tunings? Also, and this may be pushing it, does anyone know how I can contact Joni directly? Thanks so much, Sam ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #227 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe