From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #212 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, July 31 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 212 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Subject: Joni's Austin Concert 1974 ["Randy Remote" ] Joni's Austin Concert 1974 [Sharon Watkins ] Edith and the Kingpin - Tina vs Joni [betsyblue82@gmail.com] Re: Edith and the Kingpin - Tina vs Joni [Robin Adler ] RE: Legends of the C, Edith, and bluesy S&L [Walt Breen Subject: Re: Subject: Joni's Austin Concert 1974 > I > really loved my 'Miles of Aisles' album but someone stole it many > years ago. I have never seen it available on cd. > Anita It has remained in print on CD. Ten bucks on Amazon. Unfortunately, to fit it on CD, the album was crudely edited, removing Joni's in-between banter and other audience response. Also unfortunately, this was not corrected upon the HDCD release. The CD clocks in at 74m, the limit a CD would hold in the early days of the format. Later, the capacity was increased to 80m. Seems like typical record company laziness (ie greed) not to re-edit. RR from an Amazon reviewer: Most of the concert was recorded over four August nights at the Los Angeles Universal Amphitheater and mixed to create the atmosphere of a single live performance (though two of the tracks come from earlier concerts at different venues in March). However, much of this atmosphere has been sacrificed on this CD in an attempt to squeeze the albums onto one disc. With the exception of Joni's amiable preamble to The Circle Game, all the between song chat and some of the applause has been crudely excised, with applause frequently being unceremoniously cut short by the clean start of a new track. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 06:59:03 -0400 From: Miles Parks Grier Subject: Joni, Tina, and "Edith and the Kingpin" This is after Anita G's reference to interviews you read discussing Turner's interpretation of the song (and I mean no offense to Anita. She just got me thinking)... I think it's funny that people attribute singers' interpretations (especially black soul singers' interpretations) to "life experiences." It's sort of a crock. Talent, imagination, work, and knowing your craft and instruments inside and out: those are the makings of great art. I bet we could find millions of women with abusive husbands, or problems with drug addiction, or both--and they wouldn't write "Edith and the Kingpin" or sing/play/arrange "Georgia on My Mind" like Ray Charles. It may help to know what you're singing (or writing) about, but you still have to be able to translate that knowledge into the songwriting or the performance. And that is where artistry comes in. I think you have to have feelings about what you turn into art, but they don't have to be so rigidly autobiographical. This is part of why it's funny to me that Joni, when interviewed, points to the fact that the song is NOT autobiographical: that she took some observations of others and her impressions of Edith Piaf and put it all together. So, why can Joni be imaginative but Tina is just supposed to be emoting on auto-pilot based on her life? All the great artists, male, female, of every class, color, creed, and sexuality are distinguished by what they can do in their chosen medium and not necessarily by suffering of which I think, we all have more than we'd like. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 05:04:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Legends of the C, Edith, and bluesy S&L Roch, I knew I liked you right from the get-go. Bob NP: Phoebe Snow, "Poetry Man" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:00:27 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni, Tina, and "Edith and the Kingpin" I understand where you're coming from, Miles, but for me there is something when I watch anyone sing or perform that rings more authentically than others. I think (but this may be merely my projection) that I experience something else when I feel that the person has walked in the spirit of the song. I don't think that's 'crock'. Great artists can interprete songs in brilliantly, but it's not always authentic. As you say, Joni says Edith and the Kingpin was not autobiographical for her, but I reckon from what I've read that Tina Turner knows a lot men who are 'kingpins.' That's why I prefer Tina's version over Joni's original. You write: "All the great artists, male, > female, of every class, color, creed, and sexuality are distinguished by > what they can do in their chosen medium and not necessarily by suffering of > which I think, we all have more than we'd like." I agree totally with this. I am not talking about suffering but something I perceive as more authentic Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:14:49 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: Joni, Tina, and "Edith and the Kingpin" I wrote: " That's why I prefer Tina's > version over Joni's original." I think my thoughts would better be: "That's MAYBE why I prefer Tina's version over Joni's orginal.' As I sit here, I am trying to define and describe that quality that I experience in Tina Turner's version that gives me goosepimples and touches me in a way that Joni's doesn't (although I really liked her orginal,too). Whatever it is, if I could bottle it, I certainly would! :~) It's a feeling thing. And every now and again, someone hits a note or slurs a word and lots of people get it and feel it. I think that's maybe more than just great artistery. Anita ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 10:17:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ivice Subject: Edith and the Kingpin Laura wrote: My vision of the Kingpin in the song has always been an organized crime kingpin rather than specifically a drug kingpin, drugs being only a tool in that crime that includes prostitution. "He tilts their tired faces, gently to the spoon" turning them on to heroine to control them, but he is controlled by Edith who validates him, "She says --- his crime belongs." And Stewart wrote: My vision of the Kingpin is that he's a drug lord and a pimp. Edith is new in town and she doesn't know the Kingpin yet (i.e., one by one they bring his renegade stories to her - his crimes and his glories to her) and the Kingpin is dead-set on luring her into his seedy world of drugs, sex and prostitution Edith's power lies in her beauty and her ability to seduce men (including the Kingpin). In the end - the Kingpin wins the power struggle - Edith becomes addicted to heroine and most likely and a prostitute. The "spoon" indicates the drug in question is cocaine, not heroin. Edith may be the heroine of the song's story, but she does not become addicted to heroin. It's cocaine, the popular drug of these crowds in the era that Joni is writing about. Edith is an ingenue seduced by the allure of the kingpin's power as well as the cocaine, while the kingpin is seduced by Edith's beauty and sexuality. "Each is charmed to sway, they dare not look away." Their addictions are different, but they become addicted to each other Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 09:58:39 -0500 From: Sharon Watkins Subject: Joni's Austin Concert 1974 Thank you all for your responses to my question about this concert. It was indeed March 1974 at the Austin Coliseum. I figured it was a long shot that this was filmed, but wanted to ask just in case. I have seen many of Joni's concert clips on YouTube as well as Woman of Heart and Mind. Just for sentimental reasons, I hoped to see this particular concert I attended yet missed. Thanks so much for your help. Sharon Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:25:36 +0000 From: betsyblue82@gmail.com Subject: Edith and the Kingpin - Tina vs Joni but after Tina s > definitive version on River, it s tough to listen to any other, even the > original. > mike in bcn >I remember reading reviews at the time that inferred that her understanding of the song came through her life experience. I think the way the song comes across when she sings it gives a lot of credence to that idea, Anita Tina's EATK is probably the only cover I prefer to the original. Very few covers actually make me think about the lyrics all over again, but there are several on River that succeed. My take is that Tina won the battle in her own life, despite her ex's efforts to make her subservient. She has a spark that couldn't be extinguished, and that's what comes across in the song. The subtext is that Tina was really Edith. She escaped. Joni is necessarily detached. Like most of HOSL, she is an observer. Interested and emotionally invested, but nothing is really as stake for her personally. Her voice is so soft and velvety that she would have lost that battle anyway. - -Betsy Ironically NP: For a Rocker, Jackson Browne Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 09:54:16 -0700 From: Robin Adler Subject: Re: Edith and the Kingpin - Tina vs Joni Hello, I'm a bit shy and admittedly a little intimidated when it comes to posting on the JMDL. You are all so well spoken and thoughtful. I'm afraid my punctuation or grammar may be wrong and darn if Dave isn't teaching right now so he can't check it for me. So, please forgive me ahead of time any of you English scholars . Having said that I will dip my toe into this conversation. I really dig Tina's version of Edith but it's not just her singing. I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet but as a singer, I know that what is being played instrumentally beneath what I'm singing effects the performance. Herbie's choice of chords and reharmonization gives this song a cool, hip, sassy feel and an urban flavor. Also, the relaxed steady brush work of the drummer. Just try snapping your fingers to it while sashaying around the room and let your shoulders and head groove. Look on as if you were a passed over girl. I can visualize being in New York city. If this had had a polka groove I think even Tina would have a hard time selling it, although she would come the closest. Robin On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:25 AM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > but after Tina s >> definitive version on River, it s tough to listen to any other, even the >> original. >> mike in bcn > >> I remember reading reviews at the time that inferred that her > understanding of the song came through her life experience. I think > the way the song comes across when she sings it gives a lot of > credence to that idea, > Anita > > Tina's EATK is probably the only cover I prefer to the original. Very few covers actually make me think about the lyrics all over again, but there are several on River that succeed. > > My take is that Tina won the battle in her own life, despite her ex's efforts to make her subservient. She has a spark that couldn't be extinguished, and that's what comes across in the song. The subtext is that Tina was really Edith. She escaped. > > Joni is necessarily detached. Like most of HOSL, she is an observer. Interested and emotionally invested, but nothing is really as stake for her personally. Her voice is so soft and velvety that she would have lost that battle anyway. > > -Betsy > Ironically NP: For a Rocker, Jackson Browne > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 10:38:39 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Subject: Joni's Austin Concert 1974 Hi Randy, Now I'm going to have to listen to my HDCD MOA. I haven't played it in a long time. I stuck it in my player just now and the total running time showed as 78:03. For some reason I thought there was a big improvement over the first pressing as far as editing was concerned. Now I'll have to check it out. The original release was 2 vinyl records and each of the 4 sides were sequenced into mini-sets. It was almost like 4 Joni Mitchell 'suites'. It seems like this would merit at least a 2 cd treatment. But even the first MOA cd release was better than the hatchet job that was performed on 'Shadows and Light' when that record first appeared on cd. Whole songs were edited out of that one to cram it on to 1 disk. I ended up ordering a double cd Japanese import from an independent store because I wouldn't buy a crappy incomplete version of that stellar concert recording. MOA is a magic album for me. It introduced me to a lot of Joni's pre 'Court and Spark' songs and was a big motivator to buy the records those songs were originally recorded on. I wish time travel were possible so I could have attended one of those concerts. Joni is in top form as a performer on MOA and her singing and playing are marvelous. Mark in Seattle - -----Original Message----- From: Randy Remote Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 12:17 PM To: Joni Subject: Re: Subject: Joni's Austin Concert 1974 > I > really loved my 'Miles of Aisles' album but someone stole it many > years ago. I have never seen it available on cd. > Anita It has remained in print on CD. Ten bucks on Amazon. Unfortunately, to fit it on CD, the album was crudely edited, removing Joni's in-between banter and other audience response. Also unfortunately, this was not corrected upon the HDCD release. The CD clocks in at 74m, the limit a CD would hold in the early days of the format. Later, the capacity was increased to 80m. Seems like typical record company laziness (ie greed) not to re-edit. RR from an Amazon reviewer: Most of the concert was recorded over four August nights at the Los Angeles Universal Amphitheater and mixed to create the atmosphere of a single live performance (though two of the tracks come from earlier concerts at different venues in March). However, much of this atmosphere has been sacrificed on this CD in an attempt to squeeze the albums onto one disc. With the exception of Joni's amiable preamble to The Circle Game, all the between song chat and some of the applause has been crudely excised, with applause frequently being unceremoniously cut short by the clean start of a new track. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 19:58:56 +0200 From: Moni Kellermann Subject: Re: Subject: Joni's Austin Concert 1974 Am 30.07.2011 19:38, Wie Mark so vortrefflich formulierte: > But even the first MOA cd release was better than the hatchet job that > was performed on 'Shadows and Light' when that record first appeared on > cd. Whole songs were edited out of that one to cram it on to 1 disk. I > ended up ordering a double cd Japanese import from an independent store > because I wouldn't buy a crappy incomplete version of that stellar > concert recording. I also bought the Japanese double CD because the 1-CD version lacked "Black Crow" and "Free Man in Paris". As for the first Miles of Aisles, they edited the recording to make it fit on one CD. I don't remember it (someone else here will, I'm sure :) but I think they cut some of the applause or spoken words in-between songs or something like that. I never understood why the record company didn't release it as a double CD back then (as well as Shadows And Light), as both albums at the time of the CD release were from the back catalogue. I never thought that other than us Joniphiles would be interested and we sure would prefer a complete recording and not a crippled CD. BTW, they also did this to "Rock of Ages" by The Band where they managed to eliminate ALL my favourite songs from the double LP on their 1-CD release. moni k. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 23:37:19 +0100 From: Anita Subject: Re: Edith and the Kingpin - Tina vs Joni Miles' earlier posts started me thinking about what really is going on during a fantastic rendition of a song,what is it that gives goose bumps and makes something sound 'real'.His take on artistry and not things necessarily being autobiographical seems supported by your addition of the groove/musicianship being vital to the whole.It's good to hear your 'voice' and take on things,Robin.I've enjoyed lots of food for thought! Anita x Sent from my iPod On 30 Jul 2011, at 17:54, Robin Adler wrote: > Hello, > I'm a bit shy and admittedly a little intimidated when it comes to posting on the JMDL. You are all so well spoken and thoughtful. I'm afraid my punctuation or grammar may be wrong and darn if Dave isn't teaching right now so he can't check it for me. So, please forgive me ahead of time any of you English scholars . > > Having said that I will dip my toe into this conversation. I really dig Tina's version of Edith but it's not just her singing. I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet but as a singer, I know that what is being played instrumentally beneath what I'm singing effects the performance. Herbie's choice of chords and reharmonization gives this song a cool, hip, sassy feel and an urban flavor. Also, the relaxed steady brush work of the drummer. Just try snapping your fingers to it while sashaying around the room and let your shoulders and head groove. Look on as if you were a passed over girl. I can visualize being in New York city. If this had had a polka groove I think even Tina would have a hard time selling it, although she would come the closest. > > Robin > > On Jul 30, 2011, at 8:25 AM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > >> but after Tina s >>> definitive version on River, it s tough to listen to any other, even the >>> original. >>> mike in bcn >> >>> I remember reading reviews at the time that inferred that her >> understanding of the song came through her life experience. I think >> the way the song comes across when she sings it gives a lot of >> credence to that idea, >> Anita >> >> Tina's EATK is probably the only cover I prefer to the original. Very few covers actually make me think about the lyrics all over again, but there are several on River that succeed. >> >> My take is that Tina won the battle in her own life, despite her ex's efforts to make her subservient. She has a spark that couldn't be extinguished, and that's what comes across in the song. The subtext is that Tina was really Edith. She escaped. >> >> Joni is necessarily detached. Like most of HOSL, she is an observer. Interested and emotionally invested, but nothing is really as stake for her personally. Her voice is so soft and velvety that she would have lost that battle anyway. >> >> -Betsy >> Ironically NP: For a Rocker, Jackson Browne >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:07:29 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: Edith and the Kingpin I always assumed she was referring to cocaine. In another lyric from the same time, another L.A. singer-songwriter wrote of the scene engulfing her: "Rock on gold dust woman/Take your silver spoon/And dig your grave." Interestingly enough, Stevie Nicks references an "ancient queen" and advises "Rulers make bad lovers/You better put your kingdom up for sale". (No, I am not suggesting that Ms. Nicks is in the same league w/Joni, and I'm not comparing them only because they're both women.) ;-) It just struck me that after listening to both of these songs countless times since they first appeared in 1975 and 1976, I'd never thought of there being even the slightest of similarities in the lyric themes. Great discussion. I love Tina Turner, and it's interesting to hear the different voicings Herbie does on the piano, but I don't feel any special emotion in her vocal on this. It sounds to me like she's holding back in a cool jazz kinda way--reminds me of June Christy or maybe the young Carmen McCrae. Nothing wrong with that, but for me, Joni's velvety vocals and arrangement are so married to--evocative of-- the lyrics that I can't help but find it definitive. --I haven't heard the Elvis Costello version yet. Thinking of singers who might take the song and "reinvent" it, I'd be interested in hearing Nancy Wilson (not the one from Heart!), and Marianne Faithfull. Anyone else? In the end, it's all subjective, or, as a friend of mine likes to say: Whatever blows *your* skirt up! :-) Terra On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Paul Ivice wrote: > Laura wrote: My vision of the Kingpin in the song has always > been an organized crime kingpin rather than specifically a drug kingpin, > drugs > being only a tool in that crime that includes prostitution. "He tilts > their > tired faces, gently to the spoon" turning them on to heroine to control > them, > but he is controlled by Edith who validates him, "She says --- his crime > belongs." > And Stewart wrote: My vision of the Kingpin is that he's a drug lord and a > pimp. Edith is new > in town and she doesn't know the Kingpin yet (i.e., one by one they bring > his renegade stories to her - his crimes and his glories to her) and the > Kingpin is dead-set on luring her into his seedy world of drugs, sex and > prostitution > Edith's power lies in her beauty and her ability to seduce men (including > the Kingpin). In the end - the Kingpin wins the power struggle - Edith > becomes addicted to heroine and most likely and a prostitute. > > The "spoon" indicates the drug in question is cocaine, not heroin. > Edith may be the heroine of the song's story, but she does not become > addicted > to heroin. It's cocaine, the popular drug of these crowds in the era that > Joni > is writing about. > Edith is an ingenue seduced by the allure of the kingpin's power as well as > the cocaine, while the kingpin is seduced by Edith's beauty and sexuality. > "Each is charmed to sway, they dare not look away." > Their addictions are different, but they become addicted to each other > > > Paul Ivice ;>) > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 19:54:34 -0600 From: Walt Breen Subject: RE: Legends of the C, Edith, and bluesy S&L Bob said: << My favorite cut on that Joni tribute CD is the Sufjan Stevens cover of FMIP>> Actually, I was *delighted* with that take, too -- he really restructured the song (as Elvis C did with E&KP to a lesser extent). Actually FMIP has never been my favorite Joni song; not absolutely sure why it irks me. So, *blasphemy* I like Sufjan's version better than the orginal. Walt "Little" Breen > Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 17:22:19 -0700 > From: scjoniguy@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Legends of the C, Edith, and bluesy S&L > To: littlebreen@live.com; joni@smoe.org > > Hi Walt - like you I was thrilled to hear that one of my favorite > singer-songwriters (Elvis C) was covering one of my favorite singer-songwriters > (Joni M) and I dig his take on Edith a bunch. I had actually bought a bootleg > concert of his on Ebay a couple years prior where he performed it; unfortunately > the quality of the recording was really terrible. > > > My favorite cut on that Joni tribute CD is the Sufjan Stevens cover of FMIP but > I am probably the only one who feels that way. While I don't care for Bjork, I > was awfully glad to hear her "Boho Dance" because it officially finished HOSL in > terms of covers. Every song on that album has been covered. Not so with DED. > > Speaking of HOSL, that bluesy S&L is sweet. She re-worked it for her abbreviated > '76 tour. I've got about 6 of those shows, the best one being the Philly > Spectrum show referenced by Catherine. That one is a must have, got it a while > back from our own favorite webmaster. I have a German-language cover of S&L > waiting for me when I get home, among other things. > > Bob ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #212 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe