From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #201 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, July 20 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 201 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: DED confession [T Peckham ] who wants to debate? [Paul Ivice ] Sv: Re: DED confession ["marionleffler@telia.com" ] Lots of topics - DED, Aging children, covers and more ["kbhla" ] cd alert [Gerald Notaro ] Re: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? [Catherine McKay ] RE: DED ["Robert Sartorius" ] Re: DED [Gerald Notaro ] Re: DED confession [Dave Blackburn ] Re: DED confession [Dave Blackburn ] RE: DED confession [Susan Tierney McNamara ] Genre Specific [William Waddell ] RE: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? [Susan Tierney McNamara ] DED confession [betsyblue82@gmail.com] Re: DED confession [Dave Blackburn ] Re: DED confession [betsyblue82@gmail.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:19:55 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: DED confession Very well said. ---This is the one Joni album I've never replaced on CD. I've given it several fresh listens over the years, hoping to find something to like . . . I think I'll continue to hold out until I find a low-priced used Geffen Box Set, where perhaps the improved sound will draw me in finally. Terra On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Mark wrote: > I can't say that 'Dog Eat Dog' is my favorite Joni Mitchell recording > although I think there are one or two people out there who would say it is > their favorite. > > While I agree that the production and lyrical content of 'Dog Eat Dog' are > what put off most of Joni's fans, I don't agree that the production was an > attempt to fit in with the pop music of the day. For me, anyway, the > electronic 'canned' sounds fit the content of the record. The sound of this > record is the sound of a mechanical, electrified nation full of tension, > greed and self obsession. If you're writing about the 'Shiny Toys' of a > commercialized, consumer driven society, why shouldn't the music be shiny > and slick? If you want to convey the image 'while madmen sit up building > bombs and making laws and bars' and 'deep in the night appetites find us > release us and bind us' why not use mechanical sounds that evoke machinery > and dragging chains? Personally, I don't think the songs would have had the > same impact if she had been playing acoustic guitar and piano. She was > writing her view of a harsh, materialistic, mechanized, 'dog eat dog' world > and I think the music fits her mood. I also think it was natural for her, > as an artist, to experiment with the contemporary tools of her medium. To > me, 'Dog Eat Dog' doesn't sound like anything else that came out of the 80s > but then I don't know all of the music that came out of the 80s. From > listening to the superior transfer from the original master tapes in the > 'Geffen Box Set', I hear all kinds of nuances and subtleties that I hadn't > noticed in the original cd pressing. I think this was the first of Joni's > albums that was released after the advent of the cd. I remember refusing to > buy it until the cd version was released. I think most of us know that > there have been some pretty shoddy jobs of putting music on cd, especially > when the technology was new. > > As far as the lyrics failing to convey political analysis, Joni is no more > a political analyst than Bob Dylan or the members of Jefferson Airplane or > any other recording artists who made so-called 'protest' music back in the > 60s. I wouldn't expect in depth political analysis from her. I do think > there are some nice turns of phrase on 'Dog Eat Dog' and I don't see them as > slogans, simplistic or otherwise. Like all of the rest of her records, 'Dog > Eat Dog' expresses Joni's thoughts and feelings. This record just happens > to be about different thoughts and feelings than what people were accustomed > to hearing from her. > > Mark in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- From: rflynn@frontiernet.net > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 4:58 PM > To: Dave Blackburn ; betsyblue82@gmail.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: DED confession > > > Production values, absolutely. Sick of Synthesizers (SOS). > > Politics, well it wasn't the anger, many of us were plenty angry. It was > the > lack of nuance when most of us had come to expect more lyrically from > Joni. > Simplistic slogans rather than real political analysis (even given the > confines of the popular song). > > WTRF had great moments. Not so much DED. > > Richard Flynn > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: Dave Blackburn > To: betsyblue82@gmail.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Sent: Tue, Jul 19, 2011 23:33:41 GMT+00:00 > Subject: Re: DED confession > > Betsy, > > I think there were several things that made DED grate on some fans: the > complete absence of Joni's guitar or piano playing is one, the very > processed "canned" production style which was the antithesis of the earthy > and inviting sound of her earlier albums, the influence of a lot of new > "cooks" (Klein, Dolby, Shipley) when there had been only Joni and Henry > Lewy > for almost every album prior to WTRF. But most of all the angry political > stance of the lyrics, although completely justified of course by the state > of the world in 1985, was not what most people wanted to hear from the > songwriter who had been their "aesthetic nerve center" growing up. > > It definitely contained some good (not brilliant) songs and once we heard > them played on acoustic piano that was readily apparent, but they were hard > to get to behind the drum machines, delay lines and Fairlight programming. > To be fair, pretty much all pop in 84/85 suffered from similar production > choices, but we all hold Joni Mitchell to a higher standard of innovation > and here she was pretty flagrantly trying to do what was in vogue at the > time. > > When she returned to her modern acoustic production style on Night Ride > Home > and TI it was as if she had got the pop gloss thing out of her system and > taken back control of her music. > > Dave > > > On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:47 PM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > > Maybe I have bad taste, or maybe my. age is showing, but I love Dog Eat >> > Dog (the album and the song). Good Friends isn't my favorite, but it's > still > good. The rest of the songs are great. How come everyone thought it sucked > so much? Of the 80s albums, it was even better than WTRF, while CMIARS was > quite uneven. > >> >> I'm feeling feisty. Who wants to debate??? >> >> -Betsy >> NP: Fire and Wood, Luciana Souza >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 03:30:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ivice Subject: who wants to debate? Betsy wrote: Maybe I have bad taste, or maybe my. age is showing, but I love Dog Eat Dog (the album and the song). Good Friends isn't my favorite, but it's still good. The rest of the songs are great. How come everyone thought it sucked so much? Of the 80s albums, it was even better than WTRF, while CMIARS was quite uneven. I'm feeling feisty. Who wants to debate??? If only because of Chinese Cafe, whicih is better than any track on DED, WTRF is a far superior album. And even if you discount the title track of WTRF, there are several other songs I think are better than anything on DED -- Underneath the Streetlights, Man to Man, Dream Flat Tires, with only Impossible Dreamer in that class of song, IMHO. Paul Ivice ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:40:10 +0200 (CEST) From: "marionleffler@telia.com" Subject: Sv: Re: DED confession Well spoken, Mark, as if you read my mind:-) I wonder what critics would have said had Joni released lyrics like DED in the sixties or seventies?. I remember one Swedish critic remarking about Blue that she was looking inward when she ought to look at the world outside her. A typical opinion among some progressives at the time. The personal is political, as the slogan went. But as you pointed out, feelings about politics are personal. They are not to be confused with political analysis. I like DED for the lyrics though not for the sound. An age thing, I guess:) Marion >----Ursprungligt meddelande---- >Fren: mark.travis@frontier.com >Datum: 2011-07-20 05:33 >Till: , "Dave Blackburn", >Kopia: >Drende: Re: DED confession > >I can't say that 'Dog Eat Dog' is my favorite Joni Mitchell recording >although I think there are one or two people out there who would say it is >their favorite. > >While I agree that the production and lyrical content of 'Dog Eat Dog' are >what put off most of Joni's fans, I don't agree that the production was an >attempt to fit in with the pop music of the day. For me, anyway, the >electronic 'canned' sounds fit the content of the record. The sound of this >record is the sound of a mechanical, electrified nation full of tension, >greed and self obsession. If you're writing about the 'Shiny Toys' of a >commercialized, consumer driven society, why shouldn't the music be shiny >and slick? If you want to convey the image 'while madmen sit up building >bombs and making laws and bars' and 'deep in the night appetites find us >release us and bind us' why not use mechanical sounds that evoke machinery >and dragging chains? Personally, I don't think the songs would have had the >same impact if she had been playing acoustic guitar and piano. She was >writing her view of a harsh, materialistic, mechanized, 'dog eat dog' world >and I think the music fits her mood. I also think it was natural for her, >as an artist, to experiment with the contemporary tools of her medium. To >me, 'Dog Eat Dog' doesn't sound like anything else that came out of the 80s >but then I don't know all of the music that came out of the 80s. From >listening to the superior transfer from the original master tapes in the >'Geffen Box Set', I hear all kinds of nuances and subtleties that I hadn't >noticed in the original cd pressing. I think this was the first of Joni's >albums that was released after the advent of the cd. I remember refusing to >buy it until the cd version was released. I think most of us know that >there have been some pretty shoddy jobs of putting music on cd, especially >when the technology was new. > >As far as the lyrics failing to convey political analysis, Joni is no more a >political analyst than Bob Dylan or the members of Jefferson Airplane or any >other recording artists who made so-called 'protest' music back in the 60s. >I wouldn't expect in depth political analysis from her. I do think there >are some nice turns of phrase on 'Dog Eat Dog' and I don't see them as >slogans, simplistic or otherwise. Like all of the rest of her records, 'Dog >Eat Dog' expresses Joni's thoughts and feelings. This record just happens >to be about different thoughts and feelings than what people were accustomed >to hearing from her. > >Mark in Seattle > >-----Original Message----- >From: rflynn@frontiernet.net >Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 4:58 PM >To: Dave Blackburn ; betsyblue82@gmail.com >Cc: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: DED confession > >Production values, absolutely. Sick of Synthesizers (SOS). > >Politics, well it wasn't the anger, many of us were plenty angry. It was the >lack of nuance when most of us had come to expect more lyrically from Joni. >Simplistic slogans rather than real political analysis (even given the >confines of the popular song). > >WTRF had great moments. Not so much DED. > >Richard Flynn >Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > >-----Original message----- >From: Dave Blackburn >To: betsyblue82@gmail.com >Cc: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Tue, Jul 19, 2011 23:33:41 GMT+00:00 >Subject: Re: DED confession > >Betsy, > >I think there were several things that made DED grate on some fans: the >complete absence of Joni's guitar or piano playing is one, the very >processed "canned" production style which was the antithesis of the earthy >and inviting sound of her earlier albums, the influence of a lot of new >"cooks" (Klein, Dolby, Shipley) when there had been only Joni and Henry Lewy >for almost every album prior to WTRF. But most of all the angry political >stance of the lyrics, although completely justified of course by the state >of the world in 1985, was not what most people wanted to hear from the >songwriter who had been their "aesthetic nerve center" growing up. > >It definitely contained some good (not brilliant) songs and once we heard >them played on acoustic piano that was readily apparent, but they were hard >to get to behind the drum machines, delay lines and Fairlight programming. >To be fair, pretty much all pop in 84/85 suffered from similar production >choices, but we all hold Joni Mitchell to a higher standard of innovation >and here she was pretty flagrantly trying to do what was in vogue at the >time. > >When she returned to her modern acoustic production style on Night Ride Home >and TI it was as if she had got the pop gloss thing out of her system and >taken back control of her music. > >Dave > > >On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:47 PM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > >> Maybe I have bad taste, or maybe my. age is showing, but I love Dog Eat >Dog (the album and the song). Good Friends isn't my favorite, but it's still >good. The rest of the songs are great. How come everyone thought it sucked >so much? Of the 80s albums, it was even better than WTRF, while CMIARS was >quite uneven. >> >> I'm feeling feisty. Who wants to debate??? >> >> -Betsy >> NP: Fire and Wood, Luciana Souza >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 01:39:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: DED confession And FWIW only 1 "official" cover of a DED song, 25 years later. (Ethiopia by Terri Lynne Carrington). Many more on NRH, TI, even TTT. Bob NP: Radiohead, "Supercollider" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:12:57 -0700 From: "kbhla" Subject: Lots of topics - DED, Aging children, covers and more I've been wanting to respond to so many posts but keep getting sidetracked. Rather than go on and on to each, I'll try to put it all in one! First, the 2011 Covers project put together by Dave B. and JMDL contributors just completely blew me away. In all the years of hearing Joni covers within and without, this is the pinnacle to me. I got that sentimental, silly "verklempt" feeling listening to the contributions. A strong feeling of "tribal" awe and pride. Outstanding all around is an undertstatement. Is there any way this compilation can be offered for sale on the websites and/or CD Baby? It is truly that good and I have never wished more for Joni to hear these particular renditions. The posts by Walt, Anita, Mark, Catherine and Anne also touched me straight to my heart. So incredibly wise and insightful and reminds me why I love this list so much. It is sometimes so beyond discussing Joni. Dog Eat Dog - Ha! I was always the one who grabbed each new Joni album the second it was released except for DED. Yes, I am confessing a dark secret of my apostasy here. Truth is I had no idea about the album when it was released - not on my radar at all! I was working day and night at the time and completely immersed with a long term relationship. Somehow, incredibly, it slipped my radar. I was completely back on board for the release of Chalkmark and Night Ride Home but never even knew of the existence of DED until the late 90s when I joined the list! So some of my list friends introduced me to it and by that time maybe I was more sophisticated or without expectations and I actually really liked it! Especially Joni's lyrics. Don't think I would have appreciated it as much if I'd heard it when first released. I later actually converted two people to Joni by playing them this album! Overall, musically, I do look at it as an over-abundance of Klein influence (Sorry, Larry) but the songs themselves and the lyrics are brilliant. Recall we passed around some musically stripped down/acoustic versions of the songs long ago and you can really hear the beauty in them in their alternative versioins. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:06:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? A few days ago I finally got to see the "Legends of the Canyon" DVD, the Henry Diltz one, which features a lot of time with Graham Nash. Great flick, I adored every second. Graham mentions when he lived with Joni, her being on the piano ALL the time, such that he had a hard time even getting to it. Then later I believe it was mentioned again, something about Joni just being writing writing writing ALL the time. (maybe during the time she lived at David Geffen's) Just makes me wonder when that went away and writing became a "job" and a task for her. In other words, that need to get it out and create songs - when did that go away? With all this talk of DED and the 80's albums, it made me wonder about this. I feel like by this time it had become a J O B for her, and being so brilliant, she was still able to make halfway decent (if not stellar) albums - even without the old passion. Do any of you think she was still piano-hogging in the 80's? :) Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:45:55 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: cd alert For you audiophiles and Jaco fans (like me). These go FAST and then sell in the States for twice as much withing weeks. Jaco Pastorius / Jaco Pastorius 60th Anniversary Collection [Cardboard Sleeve (mini LP)] (Title subject to change) [Limited Release] *Japanese original release. Box set release from Jaco Pastorius including his five original albums "Word of Mouth," "Twins I," "Twins II," "Invitation," and "The Birthday Concert." Each album features cardboard sleeve jacket and 2011 remastering. Also contains a bonus disc with unreleased tracks (subject to change). Furthermore, a base figure (Jaco Pastorius model) is included. Comes with liner notes by Peter Erskine and a description. CD | Release:2011/09/21 | Price:9333yen (US$ 116.27) Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 05:19:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Em > To: jonilist > Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 7:06:52 AM > Subject: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? > > A few days ago I finally got to see the "Legends of the Canyon" DVD, the Henry > Diltz one, which features a lot of time with Graham Nash. > Great flick, I > adored every second. > > Graham mentions when he lived with Joni, her being on > the piano ALL the time, such that he had a hard time even getting to it. > Kind of makes me wonder why they didn't just buy a second piano! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 05:49:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? ha ha! maybe the house was tiny, and that would have been a little discordant. Em ________________________________ From: Catherine McKay To: Em ; jonilist Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:19 AM Subject: Re: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Em > To: jonilist > Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 7:06:52 AM > Subject: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? > > A few days ago I finally got to see the "Legends of the Canyon" DVD, the Henry > Diltz one, which features a lot of time with Graham Nash. > Great flick, I > adored every second. > > Graham mentions when he lived with Joni, her being on > the piano ALL the time, such that he had a hard time even getting to it. > Kind of makes me wonder why they didn't just buy a second piano! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:44:37 -0400 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: RE: DED Richard opined "Production values, absolutely. Sick of Synthesizers (SOS). Politics, well it wasn't the anger, many of us were plenty angry. It was the lack of nuance when most of us had come to expect more lyrically from Joni. Simplistic slogans rather than real political analysis (even given the confines of the popular song). WTRF had great moments. Not so much DED." To me, Richard nails it, except that I think there is a cause/effect relationship between the anger and the art. Joni's work reflects her perspective. When sadness gives way to anger, the quality of the art can suffer if the artist does not take sufficient care to fulfill the vision. In that sense, DED is no Guernica. For example, lyrically, Fiction (which describes the struggle of the individual to absorb the dogmatic information coming at her from all directions and to somehow make sense of it all) nicely captures that overwhelmed experience that we all struggle with on the way to coming to a relatively lucid (and perhaps somewhat flexible) philosophy of our own, where things are more or less right or wrong rather than absolutely right or wrong (much less not right or wrong at all). Tax Free on the other hand lacks all finesse. In between we have Ethiopia, The Three Great Stimulants, Dog Eat Dog, Shiny Toys, Impossible Dreamer. Stylewise, Joni's poetry follows a sound bite style, and is void of its customary flow. Plus, she's heavy (and pretty lousy) company. And largely dogmatic and sanctimonious. Musically, it is relatively uninspired both melodically and harmonically, IMO, whether one listens to the synth or instrumental versions. Not to say that it's hopeless - this is music crafted by Joni Mitchell, after all. But it's out of cry from WTRF, and on the other side of the clouds from Blue or FTR or Hejira or DJRD. Sadly, the anger may have gotten in the way of the music, too. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:08:24 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: DED I'm with David. I breathed a huge sigh of relief when I heard Night Ride Home. I think from interviews, Joni did also when she heard audience reaction to the song. She's no dummy. Jerry On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Robert Sartorius wrote: > Richard opined > > "Production values, absolutely. Sick of Synthesizers (SOS). > > Politics, well it wasn't the anger, many of us were plenty angry. It was > the > lack of nuance when most of us had come to expect more lyrically from > Joni. > > Simplistic slogans rather than real political analysis (even given the > confines of the popular song). > > WTRF had great moments. Not so much DED." > > To me, Richard nails it, except that I think there is a cause/effect > relationship between the anger and the art. Joni's work reflects her > perspective. When sadness gives way to anger, the quality of the art can > suffer if the artist does not take sufficient care to fulfill the vision. > In > that sense, DED is no Guernica. > > For example, lyrically, Fiction (which describes the struggle of the > individual to absorb the dogmatic information coming at her from all > directions and to somehow make sense of it all) nicely captures that > overwhelmed experience that we all struggle with on the way to coming to a > relatively lucid (and perhaps somewhat flexible) philosophy of our own, > where things are more or less right or wrong rather than absolutely right > or > wrong (much less not right or wrong at all). Tax Free on the other hand > lacks all finesse. In between we have Ethiopia, The Three Great Stimulants, > Dog Eat Dog, Shiny Toys, Impossible Dreamer. Stylewise, Joni's poetry > follows a sound bite style, and is void of its customary flow. Plus, she's > heavy (and pretty lousy) company. And largely dogmatic and sanctimonious. > > Musically, it is relatively uninspired both melodically and harmonically, > IMO, whether one listens to the synth or instrumental versions. Not to say > that it's hopeless - this is music crafted by Joni Mitchell, after all. But > it's out of cry from WTRF, and on the other side of the clouds from Blue or > FTR or Hejira or DJRD. Sadly, the anger may have gotten in the way of the > music, too. > > Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:39:52 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: DED confession As always, Mark writes a superbly cogent and insightful piece, with which I agree entirely. In terms of matching the form to the content, in this case depicting a harsh dehumanized modern world in correspondingly harsh dehumanized music, it certainly succeeds. Ironically, compared to what has come since in pop, hiphop and rap it is positively melodious and gentle (!) and I'm sure the purveyors of that stuff would argue that their music is suited to the harsh urban world of today, if they conceptualize their music at all. The trouble is, all protest quickly becomes commodified, as punk music rapidly went from a genuine primal scream to a clothing line bought by middle class suburban kids. Dog Eat Dog and other records which try to convey a message of anger, usually lose their punch accordingly, whereas music which draws you into it sonically, melodically, lyrically, keeps its message alive forever. Blue, Hejira, For The Roses, and indeed most of Joni's work before and after the 80's. My first post about DED was simply to discuss what grated on people about it, not whether it was a justified artistic statement, which of course it is. Dave On Jul 19, 2011, at 8:33 PM, Mark wrote: > I can't say that 'Dog Eat Dog' is my favorite Joni Mitchell recording although I think there are one or two people out there who would say it is their favorite. > > While I agree that the production and lyrical content of 'Dog Eat Dog' are what put off most of Joni's fans, I don't agree that the production was an attempt to fit in with the pop music of the day. For me, anyway, the electronic 'canned' sounds fit the content of the record. The sound of this record is the sound of a mechanical, electrified nation full of tension, greed and self obsession. If you're writing about the 'Shiny Toys' of a commercialized, consumer driven society, why shouldn't the music be shiny and slick? If you want to convey the image 'while madmen sit up building bombs and making laws and bars' and 'deep in the night appetites find us release us and bind us' why not use mechanical sounds that evoke machinery and dragging chains? Personally, I don't think the songs would have had the same impact if she had been playing acoustic guitar and piano. She was writing her view of a harsh, materialistic, mechanized, 'dog eat dog' world and I think the music fits her mood. I also think it was natural for her, as an artist, to experiment with the contemporary tools of her medium. To me, 'Dog Eat Dog' doesn't sound like anything else that came out of the 80s but then I don't know all of the music that came out of the 80s. From listening to the superior transfer from the original master tapes in the 'Geffen Box Set', I hear all kinds of nuances and subtleties that I hadn't noticed in the original cd pressing. I think this was the first of Joni's albums that was released after the advent of the cd. I remember refusing to buy it until the cd version was released. I think most of us know that there have been some pretty shoddy jobs of putting music on cd, especially when the technology was new. > > As far as the lyrics failing to convey political analysis, Joni is no more a political analyst than Bob Dylan or the members of Jefferson Airplane or any other recording artists who made so-called 'protest' music back in the 60s. I wouldn't expect in depth political analysis from her. I do think there are some nice turns of phrase on 'Dog Eat Dog' and I don't see them as slogans, simplistic or otherwise. Like all of the rest of her records, 'Dog Eat Dog' expresses Joni's thoughts and feelings. This record just happens to be about different thoughts and feelings than what people were accustomed to hearing from her. > > Mark in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- From: rflynn@frontiernet.net > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 4:58 PM > To: Dave Blackburn ; betsyblue82@gmail.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: DED confession > > Production values, absolutely. Sick of Synthesizers (SOS). > > Politics, well it wasn't the anger, many of us were plenty angry. It was the > lack of nuance when most of us had come to expect more lyrically from Joni. > Simplistic slogans rather than real political analysis (even given the > confines of the popular song). > > WTRF had great moments. Not so much DED. > > Richard Flynn > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: Dave Blackburn > To: betsyblue82@gmail.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Sent: Tue, Jul 19, 2011 23:33:41 GMT+00:00 > Subject: Re: DED confession > > Betsy, > > I think there were several things that made DED grate on some fans: the > complete absence of Joni's guitar or piano playing is one, the very > processed "canned" production style which was the antithesis of the earthy > and inviting sound of her earlier albums, the influence of a lot of new > "cooks" (Klein, Dolby, Shipley) when there had been only Joni and Henry Lewy > for almost every album prior to WTRF. But most of all the angry political > stance of the lyrics, although completely justified of course by the state > of the world in 1985, was not what most people wanted to hear from the > songwriter who had been their "aesthetic nerve center" growing up. > > It definitely contained some good (not brilliant) songs and once we heard > them played on acoustic piano that was readily apparent, but they were hard > to get to behind the drum machines, delay lines and Fairlight programming. > To be fair, pretty much all pop in 84/85 suffered from similar production > choices, but we all hold Joni Mitchell to a higher standard of innovation > and here she was pretty flagrantly trying to do what was in vogue at the > time. > > When she returned to her modern acoustic production style on Night Ride Home > and TI it was as if she had got the pop gloss thing out of her system and > taken back control of her music. > > Dave > > > On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:47 PM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > >> Maybe I have bad taste, or maybe my. age is showing, but I love Dog Eat > Dog (the album and the song). Good Friends isn't my favorite, but it's still > good. The rest of the songs are great. How come everyone thought it sucked > so much? Of the 80s albums, it was even better than WTRF, while CMIARS was > quite uneven. >> >> I'm feeling feisty. Who wants to debate??? >> >> -Betsy >> NP: Fire and Wood, Luciana Souza >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:50:36 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: DED confession Just noticed my shifting referents in my last post. I start off lauding Mark's piece and then immediately start referring to "it", by which I meant DED. I'll pay my fine to the grammar police... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:53:15 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: DED confession I have to say that although DED is not in my top 5 about every year or so I go through a DOGEATDOG phase where I only listen to that CD for a week or more. Sometimes I don't even skip over Dancin Clown!! There is something about it that gets the motor running for me. Especially the title song ... and of course my favorite song on the album is Impossible Dreamer, which I call her tribute to John Lennon. I also think the 3 Great Stimulants is a classic Joni protest song, one of her best. A local Ithacan, Joe Gaylord, did an amazing cover of Ethiopia at our last Joni tribute. Ithaca is a very cause-related town and the crowd loved it ... he did a very roots style version with African chimes and a great violinist. It was a beautiful rendition. Also, I think Tax Free is a relevant song right now!! :-) sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Dave Blackburn Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:34 PM To: betsyblue82@gmail.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: DED confession Betsy, I think there were several things that made DED grate on some fans: the complete absence of Joni's guitar or piano playing is one, the very processed "canned" production style which was the antithesis of the earthy and inviting sound of her earlier albums, the influence of a lot of new "cooks" (Klein, Dolby, Shipley) when there had been only Joni and Henry Lewy for almost every album prior to WTRF. But most of all the angry political stance of the lyrics, although completely justified of course by the state of the world in 1985, was not what most people wanted to hear from the songwriter who had been their "aesthetic nerve center" growing up. It definitely contained some good (not brilliant) songs and once we heard them played on acoustic piano that was readily apparent, but they were hard to get to behind the drum machines, delay lines and Fairlight programming. To be fair, pretty much all pop in 84/85 suffered from similar production choices, but we all hold Joni Mitchell to a higher standard of innovation and here she was pretty flagrantly trying to do what was in vogue at the time. When she returned to her modern acoustic production style on Night Ride Home and TI it was as if she had got the pop gloss thing out of her system and taken back control of her music. Dave On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:47 PM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > Maybe I have bad taste, or maybe my. age is showing, but I love Dog Eat Dog (the album and the song). Good Friends isn't my favorite, but it's still good. The rest of the songs are great. How come everyone thought it sucked so much? Of the 80s albums, it was even better than WTRF, while CMIARS was quite uneven. > > I'm feeling feisty. Who wants to debate??? > > -Betsy > NP: Fire and Wood, Luciana Souza > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:00:14 +0000 From: William Waddell Subject: Genre Specific Few would disagree that Joni is genre specific, a category unto herself. Covering Joni is like trying to redo sections of The Sistine Chapel, as it were. Robin Adler and Mutts of the Planet do such consistently good covers it's hard to imagine they could impress you any further. Well, I have been listening to Robin's solo album It's About Time and must say I am so impressed. JMDLers of the world unite! Wx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:21:00 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? How do we know she ever stopped? When she finally made her first album she had hundreds of songs already written. I can't even imagine what kind of pressure the constant demand of a gift like that would be. Maybe she just had to relax. My favorite Joni quote is her description of her gift as "crop rotation." Cycles of painting, music and poetry ... where one medium feeds the other." If I was living with her, I'd go get my own piano, for Mary's sake!! :-) Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Em Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:07 AM To: jonilist Subject: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? A few days ago I finally got to see the "Legends of the Canyon" DVD, the Henry Diltz one, which features a lot of time with Graham Nash. Great flick, I adored every second. Graham mentions when he lived with Joni, her being on the piano ALL the time, such that he had a hard time even getting to it. Then later I believe it was mentioned again, something about Joni just being writing writing writing ALL the time. (maybe during the time she lived at David Geffen's) Just makes me wonder when that went away and writing became a "job" and a task for her. In other words, that need to get it out and create songs - when did that go away? With all this talk of DED and the 80's albums, it made me wonder about this. I feel like by this time it had become a J O B for her, and being so brilliant, she was still able to make halfway decent (if not stellar) albums - even without the old passion. Do any of you think she was still piano-hogging in the 80's? :) Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:33:58 +0100 From: Paul Castle Subject: Re: Lots of topics - DED, Aging children, covers and more Kakki wrote (about DED) : > .the songs themselves and the lyrics are brilliant. > Recall we passed around some musically stripped > down/acoustic versions of the songs long ago and > you can really hear the beauty in them in their > alternative versions. Think you mean these, Kakki - from London's Capital Radio 'Rock Master Class' 1985-12-29 from Duke of York Theatre Dog Eat Dog - http://cl.ly/18152Z2P1m2w0T3S2626 Impossible Dreamer - http://cl.ly/2u0G1I210Y0z0U1D1K3c [click 'view' to stream or or opt/alt click to download] best to all PaulC NP 'Don't Want To Know' by The Swell Season (from the forthcoming John Martyn Tribute Album - http://blip.fm/~168ul2 (Wondering which Joni songs Glen Hansard will do at Joni's Jazz next month) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:40:19 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury Of course I fell asleep but I did watch the performance here this morning: http://theaudioperv.com/2011/07/20/the-del-mccoury-band-preservation-hall-jazz-band-ill-fly-away-719-letterman/ Really great!! Was there a shot of Paz in the audience? I'd love to have seen him holding court in the first row!!! :-) Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of T Peckham Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:24 PM To: Michael Paz; JMDL Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury Thanks for the heads-up! But why won't you be backstage? Say hey to Biff for me--he's my fave. :^) On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Michael Paz wrote: > Hi Everyone > Watch for us on the Letterman show tonight. I will se sitting in the > audience. > I will have to you. > > Luv > > Paz > > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > Tour Manager > Preservation Hall Jazz Band > http://www.preservationhall.com > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:42:09 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Lots of topics - DED, Aging children, covers and more I had forgotten all about these. I like them so much more than those on the record. I sure wish Joni would tour one more time: Joni-Stripped Bare. Just Joni on piano and guitar. What a dream that would be for me. Jerry On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Paul Castle wrote: > Kakki wrote (about DED) : > > > .the songs themselves and the lyrics are brilliant. > > Recall we passed around some musically stripped > > down/acoustic versions of the songs long ago and > > you can really hear the beauty in them in their > > alternative versions. > > Think you mean these, Kakki - from London's Capital Radio > 'Rock Master Class' 1985-12-29 from Duke of York Theatre > > Dog Eat Dog - http://cl.ly/18152Z2P1m2w0T3S2626 > > Impossible Dreamer - http://cl.ly/2u0G1I210Y0z0U1D1K3c > > [click 'view' to stream or or opt/alt click to download] > > best to all > PaulC > > NP 'Don't Want To Know' by The Swell Season (from the > forthcoming John Martyn Tribute Album - http://blip.fm/~168ul2 > (Wondering which Joni songs Glen Hansard will do at Joni's Jazz > next month) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:43:38 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury I, too, tried my darnedest to stay awake. Damn that getting old thing. Jerry On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > Of course I fell asleep but I did watch the performance here this morning: > > > http://theaudioperv.com/2011/07/20/the-del-mccoury-band-preservation-hall-jazz-band-ill-fly-away-719-letterman/ > > Really great!! Was there a shot of Paz in the audience? I'd love to have > seen him holding court in the first row!!! :-) > > Take care, Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of T > Peckham > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:24 PM > To: Michael Paz; JMDL > Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury > > Thanks for the heads-up! But why won't you be backstage? Say hey to Biff > for > me--he's my fave. :^) > > On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Michael Paz >wrote: > > > Hi Everyone > > Watch for us on the Letterman show tonight. I will se sitting in the > > audience. > > I will have to you. > > > > Luv > > > > Paz > > > > > > Michael Paz > > michael@thepazgroup.com > > > > Tour Manager > > Preservation Hall Jazz Band > > http://www.preservationhall.com > > > > > > -- > "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." > ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:48:20 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury Yeah, I better start taking my vitamins if I want to keep up with that LA crowd in August!!!! :) From: Gerald Notaro [mailto:notaro@mail.usf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:44 AM To: Susan Tierney McNamara Cc: T Peckham; Michael Paz; JMDL Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury I, too, tried my darnedest to stay awake. Damn that getting old thing. Jerry On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Susan Tierney McNamara > wrote: Of course I fell asleep but I did watch the performance here this morning: http://theaudioperv.com/2011/07/20/the-del-mccoury-band-preservation-hall-jaz z-band-ill-fly-away-719-letterman/ Really great!! Was there a shot of Paz in the audience? I'd love to have seen him holding court in the first row!!! :-) Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of T Peckham Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:24 PM To: Michael Paz; JMDL Subject: Re: PHJB ON David Letterman July 19 with Del McCoury Thanks for the heads-up! But why won't you be backstage? Say hey to Biff for me--he's my fave. :^) On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Michael Paz >wrote: > Hi Everyone > Watch for us on the Letterman show tonight. I will se sitting in the > audience. > I will have to you. > > Luv > > Paz > > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > Tour Manager > Preservation Hall Jazz Band > http://www.preservationhall.com > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:55:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? Maybe she didn't, after all. Hope not. :) Em ________________________________ From: Susan Tierney McNamara To: Em ; jonilist Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: RE: when did Joni stop hogging the piano? How do we know she ever stopped? When she finally made her first album she had hundreds of songs already written. I can't even imagine what kind of pressure the constant demand of a gift like that would be. Maybe she just had to relax. My favorite Joni quote is her description of her gift as "crop rotation." Cycles of painting, music and poetry ... where one medium feeds the other." If I was living with her, I'd go get my own piano, for Mary's sake!! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:37:19 +0000 From: betsyblue82@gmail.com Subject: DED confession >I like DED for the lyrics though not for the sound. Oh Marion, I think the sound is superior to the lyrics. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:58:26 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: DED confession I think sound preferences are generational. People now in their 30's and 40's grew up with computer based music and it sounds just right to them. If you came of age in the 1960's and 70's, acoustic or electric music played by actual musicians with the inevitable "flaws" that contains (out of tune notes, tempo variations, sloppy performances etc) sounds like good music. One person's 'improved production technique' is another's death knell to all they hold dear. I'm sure the same was true when big band swing got replaced by rock n roll in the early 50's. Dave On Jul 20, 2011, at 8:37 AM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: >> I like DED for the lyrics though not for the sound. > > Oh Marion, I think the sound is superior to the lyrics. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:05:45 +0000 From: betsyblue82@gmail.com Subject: Re: DED confession >There is something about it that gets the motor running for me. That would be the drum machine ;) Maybe I've just been listening to too much Bassnectar, but I don't find it too intrusive. The Three Great Stimulants is a fave, especially the live version from the NPR interview. I'd like to hear Impossible Dreamer on a real piano and Ethiopia without the petting zoo. The Geffen set sounds fantastic. I like to bump up the sound at the end of each track, since hearing the end of Tea Leaf Prophecy on River and wondering if there was a new verse. - -Betsy Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry - -----Original Message----- From: Susan Tierney McNamara Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:53:15 To: Dave Blackburn; betsyblue82@gmail.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: DED confession I have to say that although DED is not in my top 5 about every year or so I go through a DOGEATDOG phase where I only listen to that CD for a week or more. Sometimes I don't even skip over Dancin Clown!! There is something about it that gets the motor running for me. Especially the title song ... and of course my favorite song on the album is Impossible Dreamer, which I call her tribute to John Lennon. I also think the 3 Great Stimulants is a classic Joni protest song, one of her best. A local Ithacan, Joe Gaylord, did an amazing cover of Ethiopia at our last Joni tribute. Ithaca is a very cause-related town and the crowd loved it ... he did a very roots style version with African chimes and a great violinist. It was a beautiful rendition. Also, I think Tax Free is a relevant song right now!! :-) sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Dave Blackburn Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:34 PM To: betsyblue82@gmail.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: DED confession Betsy, I think there were several things that made DED grate on some fans: the complete absence of Joni's guitar or piano playing is one, the very processed "canned" production style which was the antithesis of the earthy and inviting sound of her earlier albums, the influence of a lot of new "cooks" (Klein, Dolby, Shipley) when there had been only Joni and Henry Lewy for almost every album prior to WTRF. But most of all the angry political stance of the lyrics, although completely justified of course by the state of the world in 1985, was not what most people wanted to hear from the songwriter who had been their "aesthetic nerve center" growing up. It definitely contained some good (not brilliant) songs and once we heard them played on acoustic piano that was readily apparent, but they were hard to get to behind the drum machines, delay lines and Fairlight programming. To be fair, pretty much all pop in 84/85 suffered from similar production choices, but we all hold Joni Mitchell to a higher standard of innovation and here she was pretty flagrantly trying to do what was in vogue at the time. When she returned to her modern acoustic production style on Night Ride Home and TI it was as if she had got the pop gloss thing out of her system and taken back control of her music. Dave On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:47 PM, betsyblue82@gmail.com wrote: > Maybe I have bad taste, or maybe my. age is showing, but I love Dog Eat Dog (the album and the song). Good Friends isn't my favorite, but it's still good. The rest of the songs are great. How come everyone thought it sucked so much? Of the 80s albums, it was even better than WTRF, while CMIARS was quite uneven. > > I'm feeling feisty. Who wants to debate??? > > -Betsy > NP: Fire and Wood, Luciana Souza > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #201 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe