From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #189 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, July 9 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 189 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein [carmel rotem ] RE: Recycling? [Susan Tierney McNamara ] RE: Recycling? [Susan Tierney McNamara ] RE: JMDL Digest V2011 #196 Small Joni Mention on TV [Mary Morris Subject: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein B Don't know if any of you care about Joni covers in foreign languages, but IB was amazed toB find out that Chava Alberstein, one of Israel's greatest singers ever, covered a few of Joni songs - translated to Hebrew. B I couldn't find much info about that, I'm pretty sure she never released them on an album, andB I guessB it's from about 30 years ago, but today I found out about it for the first time. B Cactus Tree & My Old Man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYDEDaOisoI B Big Yellow Taxi & Marcie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnKd9EE4orw B both Sides Now & I Had A King: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kllFJOZTjK0B B Carmel. B B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 11:09:18 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein Really enjoyed these, carmel. She has a beautiful voice. I especially like I Had A King. Thanks for sharing, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of carmel rotem Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 10:00 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein B Don't know if any of you care about Joni covers in foreign languages, but IB was amazed toB find out that Chava Alberstein, one of Israel's greatest singers ever, covered a few of Joni songs - translated to Hebrew. B I couldn't find much info about that, I'm pretty sure she never released them on an album, andB I guessB it's from about 30 years ago, but today I found out about it for the first time. B Cactus Tree & My Old Man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYDEDaOisoI B Big Yellow Taxi & Marcie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnKd9EE4orw B both Sides Now & I Had A King: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kllFJOZTjK0B B Carmel. B B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 11:19:24 -0400 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: RE: Recycling? Betsy posted "Hi! I'm new here, and I can't wait to read about all the Joni knowledge you have. Yesterday I was listening to Boho Dance on my way out of the gym and when I hopped into my car, For the Roses was playing. They're twins! It totally makes sense, but I would never have put them together if they hadn't been synchronized like magic. Don Juan's Reckless Daughter and Coyote are a more obvious pair. What about The Hunter and This Flight Tonight? Is it just me, or did Joni reuse/recycle her material a lot?" I would say that, relatively speaking, Joni did precious little recycling. Not only that, I consider the broad variety of musical themes and lyrical subjects and styles to be perhaps the greatest of her formidable artistic strengths. Certainly, Hunter and This Flight Tonight were essentially the same song musically, set to different lyrics. Joni chose to release only one of those songs, likely for that reason. I would argue that The Circle Game and Little Green have very similar chord structures in the same tuning, with similar picking routines, and were likely written at more or less the same time. There, she released two very similar songs, musically. The bookends of Coyote and DJRD are similar in musical style (a catchy, repetitive rhythm setting a foundation for lyrical poetry of almost epic song lengths by popular standards), and are both about her brief relationship with Sam Shepard (born 11/5/43, with Joni coming out two days on his tail). Well, one can understand two similar songs at roughly the same time about the same person. However, the lyrical content is so diverse. Coyote is more about the subject and his relationship to Joni. DJRD is more autobiographical and introspective. Blazing lyrics, catchy rhythmical flow, subtle melodies carrying them along. Two of my favorites. She wrote a song (I forget the name) that essentially plagiarized Leondard Cohen's Suzanne, but never released it. I take that as an example of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Her Silky Veils of Ardor is more or less a pastiche of public domain mountain folk songs, to which she added her personal flourishes. (I love her guitar work on that song). Can anyone think of any other instances where "recycling" could be charged? I do not see FTR and Boho Dance to be twins. Musically, they are far apart. Lyrically, they are oddly polar opposite. In The Boho Dance, she criticizes her friend for his false airs - strongly held even though he has never gotten into the game - and implicitly dares him to get into the game. In FTR, she warns her friend that even though he has dared to get into the game and is currently riding high, he will be shot down soon enough, as is always the case (in her opinion) in the world of fortune and fame. Two edges of a related sword. A similar pairing might be Both Sides Now versus Be Cool. Consider those studies in contrast written 15 years apart. In the first, Joni is just coming to identify and muse about the two sides. In the second, she is stuck on and inured to the latter position. And what a difference in musical styles and development! No, recycling is not what Joni Mitchell was about as a song writer. Au contrere, it was largely about the variety. At least through Turbulent Indigo. It is in that respect that I was most disappointed with Taming the Tiger and Shine - viz, homogeneity of sound (the VG-8 wash of TTT and the electronic synth mode of Shine) and not enough variety - and some repetition - - lyrically. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 11:46:35 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Recycling? Wizard of Is would be the Cohen imitation - You can hear this rarity here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOFAr5OoDWM Joni also talks about recycling old songs into new songs when she talks about Bob Dylan and his song Hard Rain, cobbing thrown away lyrics into a song. That was her way of apologizing for her song Mr. Blue (which is pretty awful)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nka9i8D0xqg Bob, you make great points about Joni not recycling. Although the problem of multiple tunings while performing in the early days did mean that she grouped songs in gigs with similar tunings. Maybe the VG-8 was an invention that changed the way she had to think about performance and then maybe affected her songwriting? Hmmm ... that sounds like the start of an interesting discussion. Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Robert Sartorius Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 11:19 AM To: joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: RE: Recycling? Betsy posted "Hi! I'm new here, and I can't wait to read about all the Joni knowledge you have. Yesterday I was listening to Boho Dance on my way out of the gym and when I hopped into my car, For the Roses was playing. They're twins! It totally makes sense, but I would never have put them together if they hadn't been synchronized like magic. Don Juan's Reckless Daughter and Coyote are a more obvious pair. What about The Hunter and This Flight Tonight? Is it just me, or did Joni reuse/recycle her material a lot?" I would say that, relatively speaking, Joni did precious little recycling. Not only that, I consider the broad variety of musical themes and lyrical subjects and styles to be perhaps the greatest of her formidable artistic strengths. Certainly, Hunter and This Flight Tonight were essentially the same song musically, set to different lyrics. Joni chose to release only one of those songs, likely for that reason. I would argue that The Circle Game and Little Green have very similar chord structures in the same tuning, with similar picking routines, and were likely written at more or less the same time. There, she released two very similar songs, musically. The bookends of Coyote and DJRD are similar in musical style (a catchy, repetitive rhythm setting a foundation for lyrical poetry of almost epic song lengths by popular standards), and are both about her brief relationship with Sam Shepard (born 11/5/43, with Joni coming out two days on his tail). Well, one can understand two similar songs at roughly the same time about the same person. However, the lyrical content is so diverse. Coyote is more about the subject and his relationship to Joni. DJRD is more autobiographical and introspective. Blazing lyrics, catchy rhythmical flow, subtle melodies carrying them along. Two of my favorites. She wrote a song (I forget the name) that essentially plagiarized Leondard Cohen's Suzanne, but never released it. I take that as an example of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Her Silky Veils of Ardor is more or less a pastiche of public domain mountain folk songs, to which she added her personal flourishes. (I love her guitar work on that song). Can anyone think of any other instances where "recycling" could be charged? I do not see FTR and Boho Dance to be twins. Musically, they are far apart. Lyrically, they are oddly polar opposite. In The Boho Dance, she criticizes her friend for his false airs - strongly held even though he has never gotten into the game - and implicitly dares him to get into the game. In FTR, she warns her friend that even though he has dared to get into the game and is currently riding high, he will be shot down soon enough, as is always the case (in her opinion) in the world of fortune and fame. Two edges of a related sword. A similar pairing might be Both Sides Now versus Be Cool. Consider those studies in contrast written 15 years apart. In the first, Joni is just coming to identify and muse about the two sides. In the second, she is stuck on and inured to the latter position. And what a difference in musical styles and development! No, recycling is not what Joni Mitchell was about as a song writer. Au contrere, it was largely about the variety. At least through Turbulent Indigo. It is in that respect that I was most disappointed with Taming the Tiger and Shine - viz, homogeneity of sound (the VG-8 wash of TTT and the electronic synth mode of Shine) and not enough variety - and some repetition - - lyrically. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 11:46:35 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Recycling? Wizard of Is would be the Cohen imitation - You can hear this rarity here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOFAr5OoDWM Joni also talks about recycling old songs into new songs when she talks about Bob Dylan and his song Hard Rain, cobbing thrown away lyrics into a song. That was her way of apologizing for her song Mr. Blue (which is pretty awful)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nka9i8D0xqg Bob, you make great points about Joni not recycling. Although the problem of multiple tunings while performing in the early days did mean that she grouped songs in gigs with similar tunings. Maybe the VG-8 was an invention that changed the way she had to think about performance and then maybe affected her songwriting? Hmmm ... that sounds like the start of an interesting discussion. Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Robert Sartorius Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 11:19 AM To: joni@smoe.org; onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: RE: Recycling? Betsy posted "Hi! I'm new here, and I can't wait to read about all the Joni knowledge you have. Yesterday I was listening to Boho Dance on my way out of the gym and when I hopped into my car, For the Roses was playing. They're twins! It totally makes sense, but I would never have put them together if they hadn't been synchronized like magic. Don Juan's Reckless Daughter and Coyote are a more obvious pair. What about The Hunter and This Flight Tonight? Is it just me, or did Joni reuse/recycle her material a lot?" I would say that, relatively speaking, Joni did precious little recycling. Not only that, I consider the broad variety of musical themes and lyrical subjects and styles to be perhaps the greatest of her formidable artistic strengths. Certainly, Hunter and This Flight Tonight were essentially the same song musically, set to different lyrics. Joni chose to release only one of those songs, likely for that reason. I would argue that The Circle Game and Little Green have very similar chord structures in the same tuning, with similar picking routines, and were likely written at more or less the same time. There, she released two very similar songs, musically. The bookends of Coyote and DJRD are similar in musical style (a catchy, repetitive rhythm setting a foundation for lyrical poetry of almost epic song lengths by popular standards), and are both about her brief relationship with Sam Shepard (born 11/5/43, with Joni coming out two days on his tail). Well, one can understand two similar songs at roughly the same time about the same person. However, the lyrical content is so diverse. Coyote is more about the subject and his relationship to Joni. DJRD is more autobiographical and introspective. Blazing lyrics, catchy rhythmical flow, subtle melodies carrying them along. Two of my favorites. She wrote a song (I forget the name) that essentially plagiarized Leondard Cohen's Suzanne, but never released it. I take that as an example of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Her Silky Veils of Ardor is more or less a pastiche of public domain mountain folk songs, to which she added her personal flourishes. (I love her guitar work on that song). Can anyone think of any other instances where "recycling" could be charged? I do not see FTR and Boho Dance to be twins. Musically, they are far apart. Lyrically, they are oddly polar opposite. In The Boho Dance, she criticizes her friend for his false airs - strongly held even though he has never gotten into the game - and implicitly dares him to get into the game. In FTR, she warns her friend that even though he has dared to get into the game and is currently riding high, he will be shot down soon enough, as is always the case (in her opinion) in the world of fortune and fame. Two edges of a related sword. A similar pairing might be Both Sides Now versus Be Cool. Consider those studies in contrast written 15 years apart. In the first, Joni is just coming to identify and muse about the two sides. In the second, she is stuck on and inured to the latter position. And what a difference in musical styles and development! No, recycling is not what Joni Mitchell was about as a song writer. Au contrere, it was largely about the variety. At least through Turbulent Indigo. It is in that respect that I was most disappointed with Taming the Tiger and Shine - viz, homogeneity of sound (the VG-8 wash of TTT and the electronic synth mode of Shine) and not enough variety - and some repetition - - lyrically. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 10:39:47 -0700 From: Mary Morris Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2011 #196 Small Joni Mention on TV There was a not so nice Joni mention in HOT IN CLEVELAND on tv. One of the characters calls Joy "Joni Bitchell" when she starts to act diva-like as the lead singer in their girl band. It was unkind, but it was a mention. Makes me wonder again, what our Lady of the Canyon is doing & hoping her health is better. Does anyone know ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 23:34:30 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein Many thanks, Carmel. Just out of interest, how close would you say that the translations are? And do they work, do they keep the richness and the imagery? From the odd recognizable word like "California" or "discotheque", I can work out that the words follow the original meaning, but how well does it work? Somehow I get the feeling that Marcie works well, maybe because I can sense the same melancholy of the song's lyrics in the essence of the Hebrew language, if that makes any sense. All the best, Lieve in London >________________________________ >From: carmel rotem >To: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Friday, 8 July 2011, 15:00 >Subject: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein > >B >Don't know if any of you care about Joni covers in foreign languages, but >IB was amazed toB find out that Chava Alberstein, one of Israel's greatest >singers ever, covered a few of Joni songs - translated to Hebrew. >B >I couldn't find much info about that, I'm pretty sure she never released them >on an album, andB I guessB it's from about 30 years ago, but today I found out >about it for the first time. >B >Cactus Tree & My Old Man: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYDEDaOisoI >B >Big Yellow Taxi & Marcie: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnKd9EE4orw >B >both Sides Now & I Had A King: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kllFJOZTjK0B >B >Carmel. >B >B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 16:12:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein Of course I do care and I LOVE them. We have BSN's in probably 30 different languages. The most recent one I picked up was a German-language version of "Shadows & Light". Haven't heard it yet, it's waiting at home for me when I get there. One of my favorites was an album that had (3) Joni covers in Estonian. Anyway, Chava recorded "Carey" in Hebrew back in 1973. There are a couple other Israeli Joni covers, can't recall them off the top of my head. Nuriel brought them to my attention way back when. Can't see the YouTube videos, I assume they're live performances? Bob NP: Xavier Rudd, "Home" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 23:24:16 -0700 (PDT) From: carmel rotem Subject: Re: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein The translations are pretty good actually, they most certainly keep the original spirit and meaning and yet sounds good in Hebrew, some of them are more word-to-word translatins , and some less (you can't always do that obviously). at least on me, those translations do work, with the exception of BYT, which sounds a bit weird, like the translation is forced on it. you are right about Marcie, I must say I get exactly the same feeling as when I hear Joni sing it. Cactus Tree is also great, though translated as cactus bush ; -) Carmel. - --- On Fri, 7/8/11, Lieve Reckers wrote: From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein To: "carmel rotem" , "joni@smoe.org" Date: Friday, July 8, 2011, 3:34 PM Many thanks, Carmel. Just out of interest, how close would you say that the translations are? And do they work, do they keep the richness and the imagery? From the odd recognizable word like "California" or "discotheque", I can work out that the words follow the original meaning, but how well does it work? Somehow I get the feeling that Marcie works well, maybe because I can sense the same melancholy of the song's lyrics in the essence of the Hebrew language, if that makes any sense. All the best, Lieve in London >________________________________ >From: carmel rotem >To: joni@smoe.org >Sent: Friday, 8 July 2011, 15:00 >Subject: Joni covers in Hebrew - by Chava Alberstein > >B >Don't know if any of you care about Joni covers in foreign languages, but >IB was amazed toB find out that Chava Alberstein, one of Israel's greatest >singers ever, covered a few of Joni songs - translated to Hebrew. >B >I couldn't find much info about that, I'm pretty sure she never released them >on an album, andB I guessB it's from about 30 years ago, but today I found out >about it for the first time. >B >Cactus Tree & My Old Man: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYDEDaOisoI >B >Big Yellow Taxi & Marcie: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnKd9EE4orw >B >both Sides Now & I Had A King: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kllFJOZTjK0B >B >Carmel. >B >B ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #189 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe