From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #94 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, April 5 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 094 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 [Lieve Reckers ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:23:42 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Hi Laurent, since you wrote, at least in part, in reply to my post, I feel I need to give some response. But I promise I am going to keep it short and not really get into the meat of the debate proper, because I think it is way too vast and general and I have no time or inclination to go into that. That was the essence of my first message: there may be some kernels of truth in Joni's comments (and that is what you seem to be referring to) but they are just flickers of light, aspects of a much bigger and much more varied and complex picture, which also contains opposite truths, so to state thise flickers as THE truth is just grotesque. Joni may like to shock and surprise people with her "unique take on things" but to me this is lazy and indulgent commenting. No, women are not all aggressive and men are not generally weak. In the past, men all had to be strong and women all had to be weak. Now, thank goodness, there is variety. We can be as we really are regardless of gender. And if that shocks some people (as it seems to shock Joni) then sorry but I think they are stuck with outdated thought patterns. As to great politicians, well Churchill was a war leader. He was good at that, but it does not make him in my mind an amazing overall statesman. And whatever one thinks of Churchill, I would not think we can never have decent leaders and states(wo)men again. I just hope we don't end up under occupation or in an immediate state of direct war again, just to allow people to start waxing lyrical about their great leaders again! I promised to keep it short and I will. Anyway, nice to hear from you, Laurent! All the best, Lieve in London ________________________________ From: Laurent Olszer To: joni@smoe.org Sent: Sun, 3 April, 2011 23:44:45 Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 This is too interesting to let it go quietly. Basically I could defend both sides of the story. But since Lieve seems to have reflected the consensus I choose to play the devil's advocate and defend some of Joni's statements as I am not afraid of "swiping generalizations" "America is as perverse as pre WWII Germany": not sure about that. Besides Joni refers to this situation being caused by a long peace. But... there is no peace for the USA except on its very soil. I interpret Joni's statement being about decadence and in that respect she's probably right. Joni states that leadership is grotesque and the masses are ignorant of atrocities being committed. I agree that for the U.S. and also for France that leadership is grotesque. All political considerations aside, when one compares our presidents to statesmen like Winston Churchill or Roosevelt, can one really say that nowadays overall the presidents are true leaders with a vision, and that they are/were the best men to lead the country? I am not picking on any individual, to me they are all either puppets or puppeteers. If you disagree, please name some great statesmen/women of the last 30 years. I disagree with Joni that the people are/were ignorant of atrocities, in both the U.S. and Germany. Regarding American men & women, after spending 10 years in the U.S. (L.A.) I've come to the conclusion that it's a matriarchal society. Comparing with Frenchmen, there is no question that American men are weak and dominated by women. The way I see it, American men are sweet and gentle but those traits are interpreted as weakness by too many women. Of course American women are very aggressive. As a man I found them totally unfeminine as a result. And I was not at all surprised at the amount of gay men perhaps as a reaction? I mean I would become gay too if I lived in the U.S., LOL Now I haven't spent a lot of time outside California so I cannot say whether these traits are all over the country or not. I am speaking of what I have experienced personally. Sorry guys again these are generalizations, I am sure there are many exceptions. In the context of the interview, Joni is not talking about a battle of the sexes. Her point is that food & water shortages lie ahead and that the current generation is not prepared to those future troubles because they're shallow and frivolous. I could not agree more with this, not that there is any real preparation for troubles. But the equation could look something like this: shallow & materialistic/instant gratification/look out for Number One generation > greed & financial profit >global economic collapse > war ?> food & water shortages or alternatively: natural disaster > food & water shortages >civil war 5 months ago we had a strike in France because nobody wanted to ok the government's reform on retirement, though a necessary one. Strikers decided to paralyze the entire country and prevented trucks from leaving refineries. Many gas stations ran out. Lines ran for hours at those stations that had gas...and fights broke out. People were filling up jerrycans and stocking up on food as supermarkets didn't receive new supplies. The military was quickly ordered to break the strike blocks so fuel could reach the stations. Now what do you think will happen when real shit happens? I am sure that some of you are raising huge eyebrows at some of my comments, but hey this is an open forum and I like to kick start the discussions.. Laurent Lieve wrote: I may of course be wrong, but my guess is that you are not getting many reactions, because it is difficult to react to these statements. With the best will in the world, I cannot agree with these swiping generalisations, and it just seems easier to keep quiet rather than start criticising them, or to make a big effort to find some kernel of truth in them. Sue wrote: I just watched this on YouTube and I'm curious if this interview has been discussed at all here. I was fascinated by her comparison of America to pre-WWII Germany - and the description of men as weak and women as grotesquely aggressive. What do you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3g-Wv-p_ug&feature=fvwrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:42:09 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: when she thought she had some choice What a great post, Oddmund. I must disagree that CIFTC is not one of Joni's best writings. It is as complex and thought provoking as any of Joni's songs. Have we not all made value judgements in a self important voice and sometimes regretted our own arrogance later? It is a great gift to be able to step back and appreciate the important things in life. To be creative and to take control of one's own life. Yes, life can be absurd but, there are lessons to be learned. I admire your creativity, Oddmund. It is a gift. Live it. Seems to me, you've come in from the cold. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 02:57:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: when she thought she had some choice I have to admit that I've always found this song so dull from a musical perspective that the words never resonated with me. Having said that, I owe it to the song to give the lyrics a closer look. Bob NP: World Cafe w/David Dye - ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark-Leon Thorne To: okaarevik@gmail.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 5:42:09 PM Subject: Re: when she thought she had some choice What a great post, Oddmund. I must disagree that CIFTC is not one of Joni's best writings. It is as complex and thought provoking as any of Joni's songs. Have we not all made value judgements in a self important voice and sometimes regretted our own arrogance later? It is a great gift to be able to step back and appreciate the important things in life. To be creative and to take control of one's own life. Yes, life can be absurd but, there are lessons to be learned. I admire your creativity, Oddmund. It is a gift. Live it. Seems to me, you've come in from the cold. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 11:44:43 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Thanks Lieve and Laurent for responding. Lieve, it doesn't bother me if no one replies to my posts, this was a Friday find that intrigued me. Laurent, I appreciate your response! Lots to chew on there. My reaction to Joni's sound bytes were, "here is Our Lady of Duality at it again." Bringing out the opposites, using bold colors to describe grey areas. What is more aggressive than that? That's why her comment about weak men and aggressive women really hit me as ingenuous. I agree with Lieve that it's more nuanced than that. Laurent, gender issues have come a long way in America but I would definitely hestitate calling it a matriarchal society. Families may be more matriarchal because of the rise of single motherhood among the poor but the middle class and upper crust are still very patriarchal. But I don't discount your experience. You may have had a better perspective coming from outside the US and witnessing the LA area (which I'm sure is a lot different from rural upstate NY!). My interest in her comment about America compared to pre-WWII Germany came on the heels of me seeing Margaret Atwood last week at Cornell. An audience member asked her what her perfect world would look like and she replied "Imperfect. Perfection usually leads to the imperfect in mass graves." I don't see America at this point yet although I don't think anyone should ever have the attitude of "it can't happen here." Atwood was great, and hysterically funny. Another great Canadian. Well back to work, thanks for chiming in. Take care, Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue Tierney || || McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Olszer Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 6:45 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 This is too interesting to let it go quietly. Basically I could defend both sides of the story. But since Lieve seems to have reflected the consensus I choose to play the devil's advocate and defend some of Joni's statements as I am not afraid of "swiping generalizations" "America is as perverse as pre WWII Germany": not sure about that. Besides Joni refers to this situation being caused by a long peace. But... there is no peace for the USA except on its very soil. I interpret Joni's statement being about decadence and in that respect she's probably right. Joni states that leadership is grotesque and the masses are ignorant of atrocities being committed. I agree that for the U.S. and also for France that leadership is grotesque. All political considerations aside, when one compares our presidents to statesmen like Winston Churchill or Roosevelt, can one really say that nowadays overall the presidents are true leaders with a vision, and that they are/were the best men to lead the country? I am not picking on any individual, to me they are all either puppets or puppeteers. If you disagree, please name some great statesmen/women of the last 30 years. I disagree with Joni that the people are/were ignorant of atrocities, in both the U.S. and Germany. Regarding American men & women, after spending 10 years in the U.S. (L.A.) I've come to the conclusion that it's a matriarchal society. Comparing with Frenchmen, there is no question that American men are weak and dominated by women. The way I see it, American men are sweet and gentle but those traits are interpreted as weakness by too many women. Of course American women are very aggressive. As a man I found them totally unfeminine as a result. And I was not at all surprised at the amount of gay men perhaps as a reaction? I mean I would become gay too if I lived in the U.S., LOL Now I haven't spent a lot of time outside California so I cannot say whether these traits are all over the country or not. I am speaking of what I have experienced personally. Sorry guys again these are generalizations, I am sure there are many exceptions. In the context of the interview, Joni is not talking about a battle of the sexes. Her point is that food & water shortages lie ahead and that the current generation is not prepared to those future troubles because they're shallow and frivolous. I could not agree more with this, not that there is any real preparation for troubles. But the equation could look something like this: shallow & materialistic/instant gratification/look out for Number One generation > greed & financial profit >global economic collapse > war ?> food & water shortages or alternatively: natural disaster > food & water shortages >civil war 5 months ago we had a strike in France because nobody wanted to ok the government's reform on retirement, though a necessary one. Strikers decided to paralyze the entire country and prevented trucks from leaving refineries. Many gas stations ran out. Lines ran for hours at those stations that had gas...and fights broke out. People were filling up jerrycans and stocking up on food as supermarkets didn't receive new supplies. The military was quickly ordered to break the strike blocks so fuel could reach the stations. Now what do you think will happen when real shit happens? I am sure that some of you are raising huge eyebrows at some of my comments, but hey this is an open forum and I like to kick start the discussions.. Laurent Lieve wrote: I may of course be wrong, but my guess is that you are not getting many reactions, because it is difficult to react to these statements. With the best will in the world, I cannot agree with these swiping generalisations, and it just seems easier to keep quiet rather than start criticising them, or to make a big effort to find some kernel of truth in them. Sue wrote: I just watched this on YouTube and I'm curious if this interview has been discussed at all here. I was fascinated by her comparison of America to pre-WWII Germany - and the description of men as weak and women as grotesquely aggressive. What do you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3g-Wv-p_ug&feature=fvwrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:17:36 +0200 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Yes Sue you're right i am sure the gender roles are different depending on class. But what you see from the outside may not be what's really happening inside the home. In fact my favorite comic, Jackie Mason, mentions in his act top ranking executives to whom everybody says "yes boss" all day long and as soon as they walk home their jewish wife says "you schmuck! bla bla bla". I can tell you this caricature is accurate. Regardless of this issue, do you have any comment on the bleak outlook described by Joni? I mean how do see americans or europeans reacting when the real troubles come around? That's what i really want to know. I don't see America looking for perfection. Not even sure one can assimilate this racial purity crap in pre WWII Germany with a search for perfection. I mean it was a clever way for Hitler to manipulate the masses to carry out his mad obsessions. A perfectly imperfect Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:28:10 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Well as someone who recently had my own "great recession" (I was in credit counseling for four years paying off thousands of dollars of credit card debt) I can say from my own experience that Americans are probably not ready to have the credit faucet turned off. Between 140 people in my department laid off last year and having to take a second job as a cashier in the local grocery store for six months to keep up with my daughter's student loans, I know now that instant gratification is a luxury I cannot afford. My daughter made this comment the other day that "everybody is old" meaning there are a lot of us "baby boomers" hanging around and as much as I would like to see everyone get what they need, it's going to be very hard for Americans to realize that getting what they need means they may not get what they want. Having said that, I finally broke down and ordered DSL internet for my home today. That's a huge luxury that I am going to enjoy thoroughly!! (have I learned my lesson? Probably not). :-) But look at Japan ... wow what a horrible tragedy. We cannot control anything ... Jackie Mason, HAHAHA! I love those old comics!! I miss Rodney Dangerfield!! :-) Take care, Sue - -----Original Message----- From: Laurent Olszer [mailto:olszer@xlsecurity.com] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 12:18 PM To: Susan Tierney McNamara; joni@smoe.org Subject: Charlie Rose's Green Room with Joni Mitchell 2008 Yes Sue you're right i am sure the gender roles are different depending on class. But what you see from the outside may not be what's really happening inside the home. In fact my favorite comic, Jackie Mason, mentions in his act top ranking executives to whom everybody says "yes boss" all day long and as soon as they walk home their jewish wife says "you schmuck! bla bla bla". I can tell you this caricature is accurate. Regardless of this issue, do you have any comment on the bleak outlook described by Joni? I mean how do see americans or europeans reacting when the real troubles come around? That's what i really want to know. I don't see America looking for perfection. Not even sure one can assimilate this racial purity crap in pre WWII Germany with a search for perfection. I mean it was a clever way for Hitler to manipulate the masses to carry out his mad obsessions. A perfectly imperfect Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:00:05 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: My Old Man Pianists, I have done a new piano transcription of My Old Man and added it to the transcription database. It's piano only; no vocal staff. Hope you like it... Dave ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #94 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe