From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #83 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, March 25 2011 Volume 2011 : Number 083 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question [LC Stanley ] Re: Grammar Question [Catherine McKay ] Re: Grammar Question [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Grammar Question [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Grammar Question [Catherine McKay ] Most recent photo of Joni? [Susan Tierney McNamara ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:10:30 -0500 From: LC Stanley Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question More rock than roll ain't it? I'd like to hear Neil sing it or the good Queen, Freddie Mercury. Was Freddie Italian? Incorrect grammar in the arts is called "poetic license," right? Love, Laura (who is going to see Paz tomorrow night!!!) On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: > Hey, it is rock and roll. You always sing any music the way it is written. > Joni's lyrics reflects the vernacular of her characters, not the Queen's > English. > > Jerry > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Susan Tierney McNamara wrote: > >> "I should not have gotten on this flight tonight" >> >> I'm not singing that! It's hard enough staying out of the way of the slack >> string!! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Gerald >> Notaro >> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:32 PM >> To: Catherine McKay >> Cc: Bob.Muller@fluor.com; joni@smoe.org >> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question >> >> The have is this case has nothing to do with owning something. The have in >> this case refers to a tense, which means it must be gotten, not got. It is >> not I have got a cold, but tense related, I should have gotten on that >> plane >> tonight. Big difference. >> >> Jerry >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Catherine McKay >> wrote: >> >>> Yabbut, yabbut... >>> If it was about not having something (or not having it), as in, "I don't >>> have a >>> pot to pee in," I agree that it's better than saying, "I haven't got a >> pot >>> to >>> pee in," if only because it's fewer words, so the "got" part is >> redundant. >>> >>> But the song is about getting on a flight (or not.) (Do we really get on >> a >>> flight? No, I think we get on a plane.) >>> So: >>> I should not get on this flight tongight. >>> I should not have got/gotten on this flight tonight. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Gerald Notaro >>>> To: Bob.Muller@fluor.com >>>> Cc: joni@smoe.org >>>> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 2:38:55 PM >>>> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question >>>> >>>> Both are incorrect, grammatically. The "have" makes it necessary for it >>> be >>>> be gotten to be correct. Others may disagree, but that is my opinion. >>>> >>>> Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:17:59 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question Gotten 'til it's gone! Jerry :-) On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:10 AM, LC Stanley wrote: > More rock than roll ain't it? I'd like to hear Neil sing it or the good > Queen, Freddie Mercury. Was Freddie Italian? > > Incorrect grammar in the arts is called "poetic license," right? > > Love, > Laura (who is going to see Paz tomorrow night!!!) > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: > > > Hey, it is rock and roll. You always sing any music the way it is > written. > > Joni's lyrics reflects the vernacular of her characters, not the Queen's > > English. > > > > Jerry > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Susan Tierney McNamara < > sem8@cornell.edu>wrote: > > > >> "I should not have gotten on this flight tonight" > >> > >> I'm not singing that! It's hard enough staying out of the way of the > slack > >> string!! > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of > Gerald > >> Notaro > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:32 PM > >> To: Catherine McKay > >> Cc: Bob.Muller@fluor.com; joni@smoe.org > >> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question > >> > >> The have is this case has nothing to do with owning something. The have > in > >> this case refers to a tense, which means it must be gotten, not got. It > is > >> not I have got a cold, but tense related, I should have gotten on that > >> plane > >> tonight. Big difference. > >> > >> Jerry > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Catherine McKay >>> wrote: > >> > >>> Yabbut, yabbut... > >>> If it was about not having something (or not having it), as in, "I > don't > >>> have a > >>> pot to pee in," I agree that it's better than saying, "I haven't got a > >> pot > >>> to > >>> pee in," if only because it's fewer words, so the "got" part is > >> redundant. > >>> > >>> But the song is about getting on a flight (or not.) (Do we really get > on > >> a > >>> flight? No, I think we get on a plane.) > >>> So: > >>> I should not get on this flight tongight. > >>> I should not have got/gotten on this flight tonight. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> From: Gerald Notaro > >>>> To: Bob.Muller@fluor.com > >>>> Cc: joni@smoe.org > >>>> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 2:38:55 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question > >>>> > >>>> Both are incorrect, grammatically. The "have" makes it necessary for > it > >>> be > >>>> be gotten to be correct. Others may disagree, but that is my opinion. > >>>> > >>>> Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 06:51:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question I know it's only rock 'n' roll but I like it, love it, yes I do! > >From: Gerald Notaro >To: LC Stanley >Cc: Susan Tierney McNamara ; Catherine McKay >; "Bob.Muller@fluor.com" ; >"joni@smoe.org" >Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 9:17:59 AM >Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight Grammar Question > >Gotten 'til it's gone! > >Jerry :-) > > > >On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:10 AM, LC Stanley wrote: > >More rock than roll ain't it? I'd like to hear Neil sing it or the good Queen, >Freddie Mercury. Was Freddie Italian? >> >>Incorrect grammar in the arts is called "poetic license," right? >> >>Love, >>Laura (who is going to see Paz tomorrow night!!!) >> >> >> >>On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: >> >>> Hey, it is rock and roll. You always sing any music the way it is written. >>> Joni's lyrics reflects the vernacular of her characters, not the Queen's >>> English. >>> >>> Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 07:46:43 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Grammar Question Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I wonder if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was in bed with polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that took some explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; another mystery partly solved! Dave On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they talked > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the "sparkin'" part > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes Joni > content too. > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in some > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The only use > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title of the > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except for the > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni Mitchell's > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards making > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about President > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his daughter > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could like > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect goddesslike > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > "But I digress. > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked her") and > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country girls of the > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a lively, > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of either > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than dandy. > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine gentlemen wore > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've been short > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a Man of > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of uncertain > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an ignited or > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a Germanic word > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also be from > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the English word > makes this suggestion problematic." > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Dave Blackburn >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question >> >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current one on >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" itself. >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but that >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are quite >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me a bit of >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that grows >> into a flame." >> >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: >> >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd or >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of folks >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar (or >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who said >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. >>> >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing so >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well that >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass from me >>> because I love his music so much. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. >>> >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:07:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Grammar Question I'm thinking something much more mundane, like Joni was watching reruns of the Beverly Hillbillies. I can't share any links because I can't access the fun stuff from work but if you google "Beverly Hillbillies courting and sparking," you'll find some stuff on Youtube. Apparently it came up on an episode called "Elly's First Date." This dates back to 1965, but I remember the term, because I always remember weird expressions. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dave Blackburn > To: Catherine McKay > Cc: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 10:46:43 AM > Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! > > Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I wonder >if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was in bed with >polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that took some >explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; another mystery >partly solved! > > Dave > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they talked > > > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the "sparkin'" >part > > > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes Joni > > content too. > > > > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in some > > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The only >use > > > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title of >the > > > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except for the > > > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni >Mitchell's > > > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards making > > > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about President > > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his >daughter > > > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could like > > > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect goddesslike > > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > > > > "But I digress. > > > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked her") >and > > > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country girls of >the > > > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a lively, > > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of either > > > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than dandy. > > > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine gentlemen >wore > > > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've been >short > > > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a Man of > > > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of uncertain > > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an ignited or > > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a Germanic >word > > > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also be >from > > > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the English >word > > > makes this suggestion problematic." > > > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Dave Blackburn > >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM > >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question > >> > >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current one >on > > >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" >itself. > > >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but that > > >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are >quite > > >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me a >bit of > > >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that >grows > > >> into a flame." > >> > >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd or > >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of folks > > >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar (or > >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who said > >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > >>> > >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing so > >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well that > > >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie > >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass from me > > >>> because I love his music so much. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > >>> > >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:16:11 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Grammar Question I had a Southern female friend who felt that courting was a lost art. It is in the srt of courting well that will cause the sparks to fly! Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh Frog went a courtin' and he did ride With a sword and a pistol by his side, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh He rode right up to Miss Mousie's door, uh-huh He rode right up to Miss Mousie's door, uh-huh He rode right up to Miss Mousie's door Gave three loud raps, and a very big roar, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh Said Miss Mouse, are you within, uh-huh Said Miss Mouse, are you within, uh-huh Said Miss Mouse, are you within Miss Mousie said, I sit and spin, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Took Miss Mousie on his knee, uh-huh Took Miss Mousie on his knee, uh-huh Took Miss Mousie on his knee, Said Miss Mousie, will you marry me, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Without my Uncle Rat's consent, uh-huh Without my Uncle Rat's consent, uh-huh Without my Uncle Rat's consent, I wouldn't marry the President, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Uncle Rat laughed, and he shook his fat sides, uh-huh Uncle Rat laughed, and he shook his fat sides, uh-huh Uncle Rat laughed, and he shook his fat sides To think his niece would be a bride, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Uncle Rat went running downtown, uh-huh Uncle Rat went running downtown, uh-huh Uncle Rat went running downtown To buy his niece a wedding gown, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Where shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh Where shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh Where shall the wedding supper be Way down yonder in the hollow tree, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh What shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh What shall the wedding supper be, uh-huh What shall the wedding supper be Fried mosquito and a black-eyed pea, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh First to come in was a flyin' moth, uh-huh First to come in was a flyin' moth, uh-huh First to come in was a flyin' moth She layed out the table cloth, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a juney bug, uh-huh Next to come in was a juney bug, uh-huh Next to come in was a juney bug She brought in the water jug, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a bumbly bee, uh-huh Next to come in was a bumbly bee, uh-huh Next to come in was a bumbly bee Sat mosquito on his knee, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a broken back flea, uh-huh Next to come in was a broken back flea, uh-huh Next to come in was a broken back flea Danced a jig with the bumbly bee, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was Mrs. Cow, uh-huh Next to come in was Mrs. Cow, uh-huh Next to come in was Mrs. Cow She tried to dance but she didn't know how, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was a little black tick, uh-huh Next to come in was a little black tick, uh-huh Next to come in was a little black tick She ate so much it made her sick, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was the big black snake, uh-huh Next to come in was the big black snake, uh-huh Next to come in was the big black snake Ate up all of the wedding cake, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Next to come in was the old gray cat, uh-huh Next to come in was the old gray cat, uh-huh Next to come in was the old gray cat Swallowed the mouse and ate up the rat, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Mr.Frog went a-hoppin up over the brooke, uh-huh Mr.Frog went a-hoppin up over the brooke, uh-huh Mr.Frog went a-hoppin up over the brooke A lily white dove came and swallowed him up, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Little piece of corn bread layin' on the shelf, uh-huh Little piece of corn bread layin' on the shelf, uh-huh Little piece of corn bread layin' on the shelf If you want anymore you can sing it yourself, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Jerry On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! > > Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I > wonder if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was > in bed with polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that > took some explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; > another mystery partly solved! > > Dave > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they > talked > > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the > "sparkin'" part > > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes > Joni > > content too. > > > > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in > some > > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The > only use > > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title > of the > > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except for > the > > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni > Mitchell's > > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards > making > > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about > President > > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his > daughter > > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could > like > > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect > goddesslike > > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > > > > "But I digress. > > > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked > her") and > > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country girls > of the > > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a lively, > > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of > either > > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than > dandy. > > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine > gentlemen wore > > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've > been short > > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a > Man of > > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of uncertain > > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an ignited > or > > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a > Germanic word > > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also be > from > > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the > English word > > makes this suggestion problematic." > > > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Dave Blackburn > >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM > >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question > >> > >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the current > one on > >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and Spark" > itself. > >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but > that > >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves are > quite > >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to me > a bit of > >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that > grows > >> into a flame." > >> > >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language nerd > or > >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of > folks > >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar > (or > >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who > said > >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > >>> > >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American thing > so > >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as well > that > >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. Stevie > >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass > from me > >>> because I love his music so much. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > >>> > >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:17:01 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Grammar Question And they always courted in "the parlor." Jerry On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Catherine McKay wrote: > I'm thinking something much more mundane, like Joni was watching reruns of > the > Beverly Hillbillies. > > I can't share any links because I can't access the fun stuff from work but > if > you google "Beverly Hillbillies courting and sparking," you'll find some > stuff > on Youtube. Apparently it came up on an episode called "Elly's First > Date." > This dates back to 1965, but I remember the term, because I always remember > weird expressions. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Dave Blackburn > > To: Catherine McKay > > Cc: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 10:46:43 AM > > Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > > > Wow, Catherine. That's what I'm talking about! > > > > Okay, so both "court" and "spark" are pretty ancient terms it seems. I > wonder > >if Joni heard Myrtle use them or read them in some book when she was in > bed with > >polio. Fascinating. "For the Roses" was another album title that took some > >explication for most of us too. Thanks for the sleuth work; another > mystery > >partly solved! > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:01 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > > > I remember watching the Beverly Hillbillies as a kid and I'm sure they > talked > > > > > about "courtin' and sparkin'." Was never really clear what the > "sparkin'" > >part > > > > > meant, but somehow always thought of it as kissing. > > > > > > I googled it and found some stuff, including this one: > > > http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990902 It includes > Joni > > > content too. > > > > > > > > > "The word spark for 'to woo; court', is the sort of thing labelled in > some > > > dictionaries as "Older use," and this label is probably accurate. The > only > >use > > > > > I can think of that might be familiar nowadays is as part of the title > of > >the > > > > > Joni Mitchell album Court and Spark, probably her best album, except > for the > > > > > fact that it doesn't have "Chelsea Morning" on it, and having Joni > >Mitchell's > > > > > version of "Chelsea Morning" on any album would go a long way towards > making > > > > > that the best, and of the many things that are mystifying about > President > > > Clinton, perhaps the most mystifying one of all is that he named his > >daughter > > > > > after that song in the awful Judy Collins version, and how anyone could > like > > > > > the Judy Collins version after hearing Joni Mitchell's perfect > goddesslike > > > ethereal version is mystifying indeed. > > > > > > > > > "But I digress. > > > > > > "Spark as a verb 'to woo' is an Americanism first recorded in the late > > > eighteenth century. It is found in both transitive use ("He sparked > her") > >and > > > > > in intransitive use ("He went a-sparking amongst the rosy country > girls of > >the > > > > > neighboring farms"--Washington Irving, Salmagundi). > > > > > > > > > "This verb is derived from the perhaps more common noun spark 'a > lively, > > > elegant, or foppish young man' and also 'a beau, lover, or suitor (of > either > > > > > sex)'. It was usually a somewhat deprecating word, more like fop than > dandy. > > > > > Example: "These sparks with awkward vanity display/What the fine > gentlemen > >wore > > > > > yesterday" (Pope, Essay on Criticism). Another example, because we've > been > >short > > > > > of Tatler citations recently: "My young spark ventures upon her like a > Man of > > > > > Quality" (Richard Steele, in The Tatler No. 2). > > > > > > > > > "This spark, which dates from the late sixteenth century, is of > uncertain > > > origin. It may be a figurative use of the more familiar spark 'an > ignited or > > > > fiery particle such as is thrown off by burning wood', which is a > Germanic > >word > > > > > with possible cognates in other Indo-European families. It could also > be > >from > > > > > an Old Norse word sparkr 'lively', but the relative lateness of the > English > >word > > > > > makes this suggestion problematic." > > > > > > Now how about the low spark of high-heeled boys? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > >> From: Dave Blackburn > > >> To: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com; jonipeople LIST > > >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:40:04 PM > > >> Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > >> > > >> As if to tie together the recent Court and Spark thread with the > current one > >on > > > > >> grammar, I've been musing on the syntax of that phrase "Court and > Spark" > >itself. > > > > >> It's really a pair of verb infinitives without the "to" preceding, but > that > > > > >> makes it look like a pair of nouns. And the pair of verbs themselves > are > >quite > > > > >> unusual choices: "to court" is old fashioned but "to spark" seems to > me a > >bit of > > > > >> classic Joni compression, as if short hand for "to ignite a spark that > >grows > > > > >> into a flame." > > >> > > >> Anyone else been curious about this line and its odd syntax? > > >> > > >> Dave > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > >> > > >>> Thanks for that, Lieve - I don't have any problem being a language > nerd or > > > >>> feel a need to defend myself for being correct. I've had a couple of > folks > > > > >>> who have defriended me on Facebook because I corrected their grammar > (or > > >>> as they would say "correct there grammar"). The latest was a guy who > said > > > >>> he wanted to "sore like an eagle". Ugh. > > >>> > > >>> I definitely did not know that "gotten" was strictly an American > thing so > > >>> thanks to you & Catherine for making me smarter. I do realize as > well that > > > > >>> writing songs sometimes requires a bit of twisting of language. > Stevie > > >>> Wonder is probably the biggest offender ("then my only worry was for > > >>> christmas what would be my toy" - yikes!) but he gets a total pass > from me > > > > >>> because I love his music so much. > > >>> > > >>> Bob > > >>> > > >>> NP: Foo Fighters, "I'll Stick Around" > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person > > >>> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > > >>> proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > > >>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > > >>> hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > > >>> distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > > >>> this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > > >>> contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > >>> > > >>> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > > >>> sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:14:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Grammar Question I agree. The romantic art of courting has been lost. My cousin used to sing this song. He sang it once while my family were visiting theirs, with our dog. When Peter started playing and singing, Ziggy the dog started to howl. I think it was more of a bonding thing than a "I hate your singing" thing. - ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gerald Notaro > To: Dave Blackburn > Cc: Catherine McKay ; Bob.Muller@fluor.com; jonipeople >LIST > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 11:16:11 AM > Subject: Re: Grammar Question > > I had a Southern female friend who felt that courting was a lost art. It is > in the srt of courting well that will cause the sparks to fly! > > Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh > Frog went a courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh > Frog went a courtin' and he did ride > With a sword and a pistol by his side, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:33:13 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: Most recent photo of Joni? Hi, I had two long dreams last week about Joni and my Joni friends and then when I saw Marian's post about Morgellon's I started wondering what the most recent photo or public appearance of Joni was (is this a run-on sentence with grammar issues? :)) Just wondering. Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue Tierney || || McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2011 #83 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe