From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #318 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, November 16 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 318 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited [Laura Stanley ] Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited [Dave Blackburn ] RE: Acoustic Jazz revisited [Susan Tierney McNamara ] Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited [Michael Paz ] Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited [Laura Stanley ] Re: how did you find her [Lori Fye ] Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited [Dave Blackburn ] Re: how did you find her [T Peckham ] Re: Re: how did you find her [Mags ] Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited [T Peckham ] Yahoo! Music - Herbie Hancock & Joni Mitchell [simon@icu.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 20:24:34 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Dave, you are always on top of these things and I'm a fairly recent recruit to jazz but, through ignorance, I've always defined jazz as a feeling rather than any strict musical definition. I "feel" that Joni has some great jazz (or jazz inflected) guitar songs. I think there are jazz elements in songs like, Don't Interrupt The Sorrow and A Strange Boy. The improvisation is there in Amelia when Joni sings, "the strings of my guitar" and plucks them. Mark in Sydney NP Heading In The Right Direction - Renie Geyer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 05:06:44 -0800 (PST) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Hi Dave, It was my 15 year old son's observation. He is a Jazz musician. I think it is hard to pin Joni with any particular genre of music, but he gets the feeling that Joni is playing jazz on her acoustic guitar. Maybe we all hear what we are familiar with when we listen... sort of like the physical psychology in relationships. Maybe there are shadows or impressions that are there but now quite clearly visible, and never intended to be, but are more so to those who experience them frequently, daily in my son's case. There are some references to Joni and jazz in my favorite article about her playing: http://www.acguitar.com/issues/ag44/coverstory.shtml So what is Joni musically? All I know are illusions. She catches my fancy. And I admire her. I study her with my soul more than with my intellect. I intuit her. I really don't try to intellectualize about her. Sometimes I do, but mostly I just get off on her sound, her style, and her whole essence. Love, Laura ________________________________ From: Dave Blackburn To: Laura Stanley ; Joni List Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 3:21:37 PM Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Hi Laura, In my opinion Joni became a bona fide jazz vocalist and her piano playing incorporated some of the chordal things we might call jazz but I don't feel she ever played jazz on guitar, with the possible exception of Overture on DJRD. I think of jazz as involving improvisation, and to my knowledge, DJRD was the only album which contained a lot of it, and that was largely on piano, the Paprika Plains mid section in particular. TTT possibly contains some improvised guitar work. Jazz guitarists who play acoustic include Ralph Towner (nylon string & 12 string), Tommy Emmanuel, John Abercrombie, Jeff Linsky, Peter Sprague, Frank Vignola, John Jorgensen. plus all those who played jazz before the invention of the electric guitar like Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian. Defining what jazz is is always a tricky one however and my conception of it may be different from others. How do you feel Joni's guitar playing would be called jazz? thanks, Dave On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > That last email got away before I edited it. My son said Joni is the only one >who uses an acoustic guitar for jazz. I can't think of anybody else who plays >acoustic for jazz as much as Joni. Can you? > > My son also said there ought to be an APP for the JMDL. I like that idea. Is >it possible? Maybe a Joni covers APP too. > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 06:50:06 -0800 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Thanks for the link to the great article Laura. Not to belabor the question, Joni does say in it: "Its not jazz, like people like to think. It has in common with jazz that the harmony is very wide, but there are laws to jazz chordal movement, and this is outside those laws for the most part." Dave On Nov 15, 2010, at 5:06 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > Hi Dave, > > It was my 15 year old son's observation. He is a Jazz musician. I think it is > hard to pin Joni with any particular genre of music, but he gets the feeling > that Joni is playing jazz on her acoustic guitar. Maybe we all hear what we are > familiar with when we listen... sort of like the physical psychology in > relationships. Maybe there are shadows or impressions that are there but now > quite clearly visible, and never intended to be, but are more so to those who > experience them frequently, daily in my son's case. > > There are some references to Joni and jazz in my favorite article about her > playing: http://www.acguitar.com/issues/ag44/coverstory.shtml > > So what is Joni musically? All I know are illusions. She catches my fancy. > And I admire her. I study her with my soul more than with my intellect. I > intuit her. I really don't try to intellectualize about her. Sometimes I do, > but mostly I just get off on her sound, her style, and her whole essence. > > Love, > Laura > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave Blackburn > To: Laura Stanley ; Joni List > Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 3:21:37 PM > Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited > > Hi Laura, > > In my opinion Joni became a bona fide jazz vocalist and her piano playing > incorporated some of the chordal things we might call jazz but I don't feel she > ever played jazz on guitar, with the possible exception of Overture on DJRD. I > think of jazz as involving improvisation, and to my knowledge, DJRD was the only > album which contained a lot of it, and that was largely on piano, the Paprika > Plains mid section in particular. TTT possibly contains some improvised guitar > work. > > Jazz guitarists who play acoustic include Ralph Towner (nylon string & 12 > string), Tommy Emmanuel, John Abercrombie, Jeff Linsky, Peter Sprague, Frank > Vignola, John Jorgensen. plus all those who played jazz before the invention of > the electric guitar like Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian. > > > Defining what jazz is is always a tricky one however and my conception of it may > be different from others. How do you feel Joni's guitar playing would be called > jazz? > > thanks, > Dave > > > > On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > >> That last email got away before I edited it. My son said Joni is the only one >> who uses an acoustic guitar for jazz. I can't think of anybody else who plays >> acoustic for jazz as much as Joni. Can you? >> >> My son also said there ought to be an APP for the JMDL. I like that idea. Is >> it possible? Maybe a Joni covers APP too. >> >> Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:09:46 -0500 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Acoustic Jazz revisited I think your son picked up on something amazing about the chord sounds in one of my very favorite songs, Last Chance Lost. I can't say if it's jazz or not but Joni has said many times that she sees music as colors and creates her chord sounds based on images she wants to convey. This sound hits me deeply because of the subject matter of a dying relationship and the discordant sounds and voicings that describe the agony and anger of the emotions. Is aural painting jazz? Is it classical? I'm thinking of some of the agonizing emotions of a Beethoven concerto ... - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Laura Stanley Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 8:07 AM To: Dave Blackburn Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Hi Dave, It was my 15 year old son's observation. He is a Jazz musician. I think it is hard to pin Joni with any particular genre of music, but he gets the feeling that Joni is playing jazz on her acoustic guitar. Maybe we all hear what we are familiar with when we listen... sort of like the physical psychology in relationships. Maybe there are shadows or impressions that are there but now quite clearly visible, and never intended to be, but are more so to those who experience them frequently, daily in my son's case. There are some references to Joni and jazz in my favorite article about her playing: http://www.acguitar.com/issues/ag44/coverstory.shtml So what is Joni musically? All I know are illusions. She catches my fancy. And I admire her. I study her with my soul more than with my intellect. I intuit her. I really don't try to intellectualize about her. Sometimes I do, but mostly I just get off on her sound, her style, and her whole essence. Love, Laura ________________________________ From: Dave Blackburn To: Laura Stanley ; Joni List Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 3:21:37 PM Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Hi Laura, In my opinion Joni became a bona fide jazz vocalist and her piano playing incorporated some of the chordal things we might call jazz but I don't feel she ever played jazz on guitar, with the possible exception of Overture on DJRD. I think of jazz as involving improvisation, and to my knowledge, DJRD was the only album which contained a lot of it, and that was largely on piano, the Paprika Plains mid section in particular. TTT possibly contains some improvised guitar work. Jazz guitarists who play acoustic include Ralph Towner (nylon string & 12 string), Tommy Emmanuel, John Abercrombie, Jeff Linsky, Peter Sprague, Frank Vignola, John Jorgensen. plus all those who played jazz before the invention of the electric guitar like Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian. Defining what jazz is is always a tricky one however and my conception of it may be different from others. How do you feel Joni's guitar playing would be called jazz? thanks, Dave On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > That last email got away before I edited it. My son said Joni is the only one >who uses an acoustic guitar for jazz. I can't think of anybody else who plays >acoustic for jazz as much as Joni. Can you? > > My son also said there ought to be an APP for the JMDL. I like that idea. Is >it possible? Maybe a Joni covers APP too. > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:14:31 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Emily Remler was a wonderful guitarist and I saw her play acoustic many times at Jazz Fest. She passed way to soon and New Orleans lost of its brightest talents and friends. Check her out here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPUxdhwjKps Best Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Nov 14, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Dave Blackburn wrote: Hi Laura, In my opinion Joni became a bona fide jazz vocalist and her piano playing incorporated some of the chordal things we might call jazz but I don't feel she ever played jazz on guitar, with the possible exception of Overture on DJRD. I think of jazz as involving improvisation, and to my knowledge, DJRD was the only album which contained a lot of it, and that was largely on piano, the Paprika Plains mid section in particular. TTT possibly contains some improvised guitar work. Jazz guitarists who play acoustic include Ralph Towner (nylon string & 12 string), Tommy Emmanuel, John Abercrombie, Jeff Linsky, Peter Sprague, Frank Vignola, John Jorgensen. plus all those who played jazz before the invention of the electric guitar like Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian. Defining what jazz is is always a tricky one however and my conception of it may be different from others. How do you feel Joni's guitar playing would be called jazz? thanks, Dave On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > That last email got away before I edited it. My son said Joni is the only one who uses an acoustic guitar for jazz. I can't think of anybody else who plays acoustic for jazz as much as Joni. Can you? > > My son also said there ought to be an APP for the JMDL. I like that idea. Is it possible? Maybe a Joni covers APP too. > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:05:17 -0800 (PST) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Hi Dave, Yes, that's one of several very cool quotes in the article." The article begins by describing her guitar like this: "Her guitar doesnbt really sound like a guitar: the treble strings become a cool-jazz horn section; the bass snaps out syncopations like a snare drum; the notes ring out in clusters that simply donbt come out of a normal six-string." I think that is what my son was hearing. It isn't jazz by law, but like she said in what you quoted people think jazz sometimes. My son wouldn't go so far as to classify her as a jazz musician, but he heard jazz on some level in Last Chance Lost. Here is another Joni quote from the article: "When Ibm playing the guitar," she said, "I hear it as an orchestra: the top three strings being my horn section, the bottom three being cello, viola--the bass being indicated but not rooted yet." Come on Joni... it isn't an orchestra... it's a guitar!! What she hears is not typical of the instrument like what my son heard was not typical of jazz but was identified with jazz in his ear as a jazz musician. I am drawn to Joni because her sound is impervious to typical walls that encompass popular music. She broke far away from standard tuning for the sake of the art not in search of popularity. I see her as a law breaker of a sort. She is that way with her words too. She said in the article, "Ibve tried to remain true to my own compositional instincts by eliminating the producer, who laminates you to the popular sounds of your time. Ibve been in conflict with the popular sounds of my time, for the most part." She's never boring like more conventional artists tend to be. I really liked what she said about bass and drum players she tried to use: "They were imposing style on something without seeing what the something was that they were playing to. I thought, bTheybre putting big, dark polka dots along the bottom of the music, and fence posts.b Ibd end up trying to tell them how to play, and theybd say, bIsnbt it cute, she was telling me how to play my ax, and Ibve played with James Brown. . . .b So it was difficult as a female to guide males into playing [what I wanted], and to make observations in regard to the music that they had not made. Finally a drummer said, bJoni, youbre going to have to play with jazz musicians.b Jako Pastorius was mentioned in the article. What is that peculiar sound he contributes to Joni's albums? I hear it as a diesel truck. Thanks for the smiles Dave. Love, Laura From: Dave Blackburn To: Laura Stanley Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 8:50:06 AM Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Thanks for the link to the great article Laura. Not to belabor the question, Joni does say in it: "Itbs not jazz, like people like to think. It has in common with jazz that the harmony is very wide, but there are laws to jazz chordal movement, and this is outside those laws for the most part." Dave On Nov 15, 2010, at 5:06 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > Hi Dave, > > It was my 15 year old son's observation. He is a Jazz musician. I think it is > > hard to pin Joni with any particular genre of music, but he gets the feeling > that Joni is playing jazz on her acoustic guitar. Maybe we all hear what we >are > > familiar with when we listen... sort of like the physical psychology in > relationships. Maybe there are shadows or impressions that are there but now > quite clearly visible, and never intended to be, but are more so to those who > experience them frequently, daily in my son's case. > > There are some references to Joni and jazz in my favorite article about her > playing: http://www.acguitar.com/issues/ag44/coverstory.shtml > > So what is Joni musically? All I know are illusions. She catches my fancy. > And I admire her. I study her with my soul more than with my intellect. I > intuit her. I really don't try to intellectualize about her. Sometimes I do, > but mostly I just get off on her sound, her style, and her whole essence. > > Love, > Laura > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave Blackburn > To: Laura Stanley ; Joni List > Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 3:21:37 PM > Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited > > Hi Laura, > > In my opinion Joni became a bona fide jazz vocalist and her piano playing > incorporated some of the chordal things we might call jazz but I don't feel she > > ever played jazz on guitar, with the possible exception of Overture on DJRD. I > think of jazz as involving improvisation, and to my knowledge, DJRD was the >only > > album which contained a lot of it, and that was largely on piano, the Paprika > Plains mid section in particular. TTT possibly contains some improvised guitar > work. > > Jazz guitarists who play acoustic include Ralph Towner (nylon string & 12 > string), Tommy Emmanuel, John Abercrombie, Jeff Linsky, Peter Sprague, Frank > Vignola, John Jorgensen. plus all those who played jazz before the invention of > > the electric guitar like Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian. > > > Defining what jazz is is always a tricky one however and my conception of it >may > > be different from others. How do you feel Joni's guitar playing would be called > > jazz? > > thanks, > Dave > > > > On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > >> That last email got away before I edited it. My son said Joni is the only one > >> who uses an acoustic guitar for jazz. I can't think of anybody else who plays > >> acoustic for jazz as much as Joni. Can you? >> >> My son also said there ought to be an APP for the JMDL. I like that idea. Is > >> it possible? Maybe a Joni covers APP too. >> >> Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:30:35 -0800 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: how did you find her This is also a story I've told (here and elsewhere) before, but what the heck ... February 1977 or so, age 18: Having just finished basic training (boot camp) in Texas, I'd recently arrived at Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi for a six-month school to learn how to repair electronics (in general) and Aircraft Control & Warning radar systems (in particular). I was assigned to a room in the "dorm" (barracks), sharing with a woman who'd been there longer, and who was next up on the list to get her own room when one became available. She had a stereo and quite a bit of music, so there was no need for me to get a listening device of my own. Another room became available shortly thereafter, and my roommate moved across the hall, taking her music with her (of course), as well as whatever decorations she'd put in the room. I was left with a stark space: black tile floor (which had probably been green once upon a time, but 30 years of paste wax will change the color of a floor), white walls and ceiling, ugly yellow-brown drapes, a small desk and a chair made of gray steel, and a single bed built of the same cold gray steel. Scratchy wool olive green military blanket for a bed spread. Built-in closets and drawers that would hold clothes when you could get the cockroaches out of the way. Ugh. I went to the nearest store. It was a little BX (base exchange; the Army would call it a PX, or post exchange) in the student area of the base. There I found a monaural cassette player/recorder that was affordable on my meager salary, as well as some cassette tapes in a bargain bin. I bought probably three tapes, but I honestly don't remember what tapes I bought, except for one: Hejira. I bought it on a whim, and only because I'd thought to myself: "Joni Mitchell ... I've heard of her." I took my new purchases back to my room and started listening to music again. When I first played Hejira, I found it dissonant and somewhat disturbing; I'd never before heard anything like it. But I kept playing it, and ... well ... fell in love with it. One day someone knocked on my door. I opened the door and there stood two women, one of whom asked, "Is that the radio?" I said no, it's a tape. Later on, when I moved to another floor and joined the drill team, these two women were team members and we became friends. I learned that, before they'd knocked on my door that day, they'd been passing my room on the way to theirs, day after day, and one had remarked to the other, "Whoever lives in that room must be very cool to be listening to that." Turned out they were both big Joni fans. (One of those women, Trish, has been my best friend since that time.) That was the beginning. The next Joni recording I bought was a bootleg of Miles of Aisles that I picked up -- again in a bargain bin -- in Regina, Saskatchewan. By that time I was at my first permanent duty station, Fortuna Air Force Station, North Dakota, which is maybe six miles south of the Canadian border. Right in the middle of ... Paprika Plains. : ) Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:29:15 -0800 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited Jaco's sound is often referred to as "horn-like". It really is often very close to a bass trombone. I agree with everything you say about Joni's appeal coming from her strict allegiance to the art of music and her restlessness in seeking out new sounds. She really did achieve some great new territory within a pop-rock field, most notably with her lyrics, which I think are far and away the most adventurous aspect of her work. Harmonically, she conflates innovative voicings with innovative chord motion. Her voicings are certainly distinctive and not typical of guitarists (although many of her chord voicings are playable in standard tuning if you are prepared to reach for them) but her harmonic motion is more diatonic than she realizes. Her piano writing is more harmonically innovative by far than her guitar writing. She also tends to bluff her way through when talking about harmony, preferring to use her painting metaphors to describe it than learn what her chords are actually called. I'm still a huge fan of course (!) but she does sometimes stray into BS, not that we don't all do sometimes! Thanks for the thread Laura. Dave On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > Jako Pastorius was mentioned in the article. What is that peculiar sound he contributes to Joni's albums? I hear it as a diesel truck. Thanks for the smiles Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:48:44 -0600 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: how did you find her Wonderful story! I'm very glad you retold it for folks like me who never heard it before. I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to have HEJIRA as my first Joni experience--I'm thinking it might have sounded otherworldly at the time. Thanks so much for starting this thread, Mags. I suspect there are plenty of people on the List for whom these are new stories. I hope to have my own to contribute once I have a little time to clear out the cobwebs and recall some details. ;-) T On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Lori Fye wrote: > This is also a story I've told (here and elsewhere) before, but what the > heck ... > > February 1977 or so, age 18: Having just finished basic training (boot > camp) in Texas, I'd recently arrived at Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, > Mississippi for a six-month school to learn how to repair electronics (in > general) and Aircraft Control & Warning radar systems (in particular). I > was assigned to a room in the "dorm" (barracks), sharing with a woman who'd > been there longer, and who was next up on the list to get her own room when > one became available. She had a stereo and quite a bit of music, so there > was no need for me to get a listening device of my own. > > Another room became available shortly thereafter, and my roommate moved > across the hall, taking her music with her (of course), as well as whatever > decorations she'd put in the room. I was left with a stark space: black > tile floor (which had probably been green once upon a time, but 30 years of > paste wax will change the color of a floor), white walls and ceiling, ugly > yellow-brown drapes, a small desk and a chair made of gray steel, and a > single bed built of the same cold gray steel. Scratchy wool olive > green military blanket for a bed spread. Built-in closets and drawers that > would hold clothes when you could get the cockroaches out of the way. > > Ugh. > > I went to the nearest store. It was a little BX (base exchange; the Army > would call it a PX, or post exchange) in the student area of the base. > There I found a monaural cassette player/recorder that was affordable on my > meager salary, as well as some cassette tapes in a bargain bin. I bought > probably three tapes, but I honestly don't remember what tapes I bought, > except for one: Hejira. I bought it on a whim, and only because I'd > thought to myself: "Joni Mitchell ... I've heard of her." > > I took my new purchases back to my room and started listening to music > again. When I first played Hejira, I found it dissonant and somewhat > disturbing; I'd never before heard anything like it. But I kept playing > it, > and ... well ... fell in love with it. > > One day someone knocked on my door. I opened the door and there stood two > women, one of whom asked, "Is that the radio?" I said no, it's a tape. > Later on, when I moved to another floor and joined the drill team, these > two > women were team members and we became friends. I learned that, before > they'd knocked on my door that day, they'd been passing my room on the way > to theirs, day after day, and one had remarked to the other, "Whoever lives > in that room must be very cool to be listening to that." Turned out they > were both big Joni fans. (One of those women, Trish, has been my best > friend since that time.) > > That was the beginning. The next Joni recording I bought was a bootleg of > Miles of Aisles that I picked up -- again in a bargain bin -- in Regina, > Saskatchewan. By that time I was at my first permanent duty station, > Fortuna Air Force Station, North Dakota, which is maybe six miles south of > the Canadian border. Right in the middle of ... Paprika Plains. : ) > > Lori > Santa Rosa, CA > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:27:19 -0800 (PST) From: Mags Subject: Re: Re: how did you find her I appreciate and am absorbing all of the lovely stories of your very own journey to Joni Mitchell. It would be wonderful if others would chime in. As I said in my initial email, yes, many of us have heard the stories over and over, and as Terra says ...it is most likely that many are new. Without getting further tangled up in my own web of words, I'm excited to see that some of you have so graciously responded. much appreciation for your beautiful words,love, Mags - --- On Mon, 11/15/10, Anne Sandstrom wrote: From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Re: Re: how did you find her To: northern.muse@gmail.com Cc: lori.fye@gmail.com, joni@smoe.org, margaret_elmtree@yahoo.ca Received: Monday, November 15, 2010, 3:08 PM Just getting caught up on this thread... I first heard Joni in the antique and ornate assembly hall of my school. I was in 7th grade. The song was Chelsea Morning. (The album Clouds had just been released.) The very cool music teacher brought in all kinds of music. But at that moment, it was like my head exploded. Even at my young age, I thought, "Finally! Lyrics that are poetic." And that voice... I was blown away. I begged for and got Clouds for Christmas. My mother was most unhappy with the inside sleeve's artwork. It wasn't until years later that I discovered that it was in fact a painting by Herodimus Bosch with a few little additions by Joni. When I could scrounge enough money, I bought her first album. From that time on, I always bought her latest album on the day it was released (until after Night Ride Home, I think.) lots of love, Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:50:28 -0600 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: Acoustic Jazz revisited More from the excerpted Acoustic Guitar article (the bolding is mine): Joni: "You have to understand, *not only was it difficult to be a woman in the business at that time*, but the camps of music were very isolated from one another. Jazzers and rockers and folkies did not mix, and I had moved through all of these camps. I was moving into the jazz camp. As far as the rockers were concerned, that was betrayal, and definitely to the folkies. *But [jazz musicians] could write out lead sheets; they also could analyze my chords.* *They were kind of snobbish at first when they heard the music*, but when they wrote out what the chord was, they were surprised, because it would be like A sus diminished--these were not normal chords. In standard tuning these chords are very difficult. *They would come around with kind of a different respect, or a curiosity at least*." ". . . All through the 70s I never liked the sound of the bass or the drums, just on a sonic level, *but I couldnt get *any [drummers] to take the pillow out of their kick and *I couldnt get* [bassists] to put fresh strings on and give me a resonant sound, because they were scared to be unhip. Hip is a herd mentality, and its very conservative, especially among boys." "Finally, someone said, Theres this kid in Florida named Jaco Pastorius. *Hes really weird*; youd probably like him. So I sent for Jaco, and *he had the sound I was looking for--big and fat and resonant*." The interplay of Mitchells guitar and Pastorius bass, first heard on * Hejira, *is a marvel. Pastorius both expands on her chords and harmonics and weaves melodies around her vocal line (including several Stravinsky quotes). *His rhythmic/melodic approach, which revolutionized the world of the electric bass, was so thick and up-front that it demanded new approaches on Mitchells side.* "Although I wanted a wide bass sound, his was even wider, and he insisted that he be mixed up so that I was like his background singer," she said. "So to get enough meat to hold his sound, I doubled the guitar loosely--I just played it twice." [End of excerpts from AG]. And then we have this from a very accomplished male musician: ". . . *She also tends to bluff her way **through when talking about harmony, preferring to use her painting metaphors **to describe it* [sic]* than learn what her chords are actually called.* I'm still a huge fan of course (!) but she does sometimes stray into *BS*, not that we don't all do sometimes!" I'm glad that Joni Mitchell stuck to her vision (and her guns) and didn't let the expert but nonvisionary LA boys' club deter her. I'm also glad that a jazz musician and writer of Charles Mingus' stature called her bluff and chose to collaborate so beautifully with her. And I guess Wayne Shorter likes hanging out with her even tho she talks in those darned metaphors instead of being able to call out actual chords. (Some girls just never learn!) And some of her biggest fans wonder why she's "bitter." Ack. On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Jaco's sound is often referred to as "horn-like". It really is often very > close to a bass trombone. > > I agree with everything you say about Joni's appeal coming from her strict > allegiance to the art of music and her restlessness in seeking out new > sounds. > She really did achieve some great new territory within a pop-rock field, > most > notably with her lyrics, which I think are far and away the most > adventurous > aspect of her work. Harmonically, she conflates innovative voicings with > innovative chord motion. Her voicings are certainly distinctive and not > typical of guitarists (although many of her chord voicings are playable in > standard tuning if you are prepared to reach for them) but her harmonic > motion > is more diatonic than she realizes. Her piano writing is more harmonically > innovative by far than her guitar writing. She also tends to bluff her way > through when talking about harmony, preferring to use her painting > metaphors > to describe it than learn what her chords are actually called. I'm still a > huge fan of course (!) but she does sometimes stray into BS, not that we > don't > all do sometimes! > > Thanks for the thread Laura. > > Dave > > > On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Laura Stanley wrote: > > > Jako Pastorius was mentioned in the article. What is that peculiar sound > he > contributes to Joni's albums? I hear it as a diesel truck. Thanks for the > smiles Dave. > - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:39:03 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Yahoo! Music - Herbie Hancock & Joni Mitchell Susan Glumac wrote, asking > Subject: Does anyone have a copy of the Yahoo! Concert with Herbie and Joni? > > Hi everyone, > I was one of the lucky ones that was able to be at the concert and I guess > I assumed it would be archived on Yahoo - but unfortunately it isn't so I was > hoping that someone had saved an electronic version they could share. Susan, for reasons I won't go into here, I was involved elsewhere and wasn't able to record, download, or save this concert. as you pointed out, once the initial viewing period was over, the program was removed from the "Nissan Live Sets" Yahoo! Music WebSite and is no longer available. but, all is not lost. later that year (2008) Verve Records released the retrospective "THEN AND NOW: THE DEFINITIVE HERBIE HANCOCK" the U.S. version contained two (audio) Bonus Tracks. RIVER from the Yahoo! Concert along with Herbie's own MAIDEN VOYAGE. HOWEVER ... the Korean and Japanese version not only contained RIVER as an audio Bonus Track, they both contained a Bonus DVD! with the following performances. 1. CANTALOUPE ISLAND - Herbie Hancock 2. RIVER - Herbie Hancock, featuring Joni Mitchell 3. HANA - Herbie Hancock, featuring Joni Mitchell and Sonya Kitchell. Unfortunately the third song Joni performed, The TEA LEAF PROPHECY, was not included. if interested, you can download the two Joni Mitchell songs at the following URL: Enjoy! andmoreaggain, - - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance or conscientious stupidity. - - Martin Luther King, Jr. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #318 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe