From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #297 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, October 25 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 297 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Both Sides Now, Sign Language [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Subject: Both Sides Now, Sign Language [jlamadoo@sbcglobal.net] Bridge Concert ["peterh" ] Re: Feeling free and female sexuality [T Peckham ] Re: question, 100% Joni content [] Re: question, 100% Joni content [T Peckham ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:13:11 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Both Sides Now, Sign Language Laura, subtle nuances can be expressed in sign language. I speak Auslan (Australian Sign Language) but it's the same in ASL. Sign language is more that hand signs, it consists of body language and facial expressions too. It is when you combine these, you get the subtleties. Mark in Sydney NP All This Time - Sting ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:31:55 +0100 (BST) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: Both Sides Now, Sign Language Wow Laura, thank you so much, I really feel like I've just received a birthday present! It moves me very much that you and Joan have gone to so much trouble to explain this!B I am certainly impressed that so much of the subtleties are coming through in sign language, in spite of the difficulties which Joan explainsB clearly about translating into or from sign language - difficultiesB which I had always suspected must be there, so I am even more impressed with the results! I will re-read Joan's reply in more detail again tomorrow, because today I am very tied up with other things, and if I have any further questions I will let you privately know, but I just wanted to say you have made my day! Big hug, Lieve ________________________________ From: Laura Stanley To: lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Sun, 24 October, 2010 4:28:26 Subject: Both Sides Now, Sign Language Lieve wrote a while back about this video B B http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruLwUanEJd0B But let me stick my head into the sign language hornets nest one more time.B IB should say upfront, I am a total language nut, I read books about linguisticsB for fun, and the one job I have enjoyed most of all in my life is that ofB translator.B So my interest in sign language is first of all just academic.B IB would really like to understand how nuanced this language can be. I don't haveB the time to go and study sign language for myself, so I need to rely on theB reports of those who know it, which is why I asked my initial question.B IB cannot begin to imagine how sign language can translate fine nuances.B ForB instance: if someone deaf, who did not already know the lyrics, were in theB audience where this clip of BSN was recorded, and he or she were asked to writeB down what they had seen, what sort of text would come out?B I am not expectingB the lyrics of BSN to miraculously reappear, of course.B But would it even beB recognisable?B This intrigues me no end, and I would still like to find out moreB about it.B (I know, of course, that it would depend on the verbal skills of theB deaf person writing down what he or she has seen.B So there would not be oneB definitive result.B But I hope you understand my intention.) Hi Lieve, One of my dear friends, Joan Blake in OKC, is a Nationally Certified interpreter for the deaf. B So I sent her the YouTube video of Clay Aiken singing "Both Sides Now" with the interpreter signing and this snippet above of your post. B Joan wrote out part of what the interpreter was signing. B She said it would be an artistic challenge to sign at a Joni concert, one she would turn down because of the complexity. B She had this to say about signing a Joni song: You need to know that sign language interpreting is similar to other language interpreting in many ways, but not all.B For example, all interpreters not only translate the words, but also adapt the grammatical structures.B We also mediate the cultures, because a word that evokes an image in one culture may not carry that same significance in another.B A good example is the word bcloudsb in this song.B To our hearing American culture, clouds are a metaphor for any number of concepts, several of which are used in this song.B InB Deaf culture, clouds are just clouds.B They are not a metaphor for anything.B Sign Language has metaphors, but clouds are not one of them.B The big difference between sign language interpreting and spoken language interpreting is that we are interpreting not only into a different language, but also a different mode b& auditory to visual.B That means that sometimes signing the exact word that was spoken actually hinders the translation because visually it doesnbt mean the same thing, so it might be better to use a different word that carries the intended impact better.B For example, if you used the sign bdriveb in the phrase bblood drive,b it wouldnbt make sense.B So the interpreter would sign bblood donation.b Joan wrote part of what the interpreter in the video was signing: B I look up and see something spread out like angel hair, another shaped like a castle, Mountains, pictures everywhere, clouds are so cool! Now I find they hide the sun, rain and snow all over, cold Many things I wish Ibd done, but clouds ruined it. B I've looked at clouds from both sides now, From up and down, and still somehow It's cloud illusions i recall. I really don't know clouds at all. B Ibve studied clouds for a long time now, Sometimes beautiful, sometimes dark and sad Those false pictures I cherish True clouds, honestly, I donbt understand. Moons and junes and ferris wheels, the dizzy dancing way you feel As everyB fairy taleB comes real; i've looked at love that way. But now it's just another show. you leave 'em laughing when you go And if you care, don't let them know, don't give yourself away. Falling in love, your head spins, you feel like dancing Childrenbs stories come true, love is so cool! Now I find itbs like a play b when itbs finished, he says good-bye and leaves If you love him, donbt show it, donbt openly admit it. I've looked at love from both sides now, From give and take, and still somehow It's love's illusions i recall. I really don't know love at all. B Ibve studied love for a long time now Sometimes happy, sometimes pain That false love I cherish True love, I honestly donbt understand. B Tears and fears and feeling proud to say "i love you" right out loud, Dreams and schemes and circus crowds, i've looked at life that way. But now old friends are acting strange, they shake their heads, they say I've changed. Something's lost but something's gained in living every day. Tears and fears and feeling proud to announce bI love youb Dreams and plans and people milling-around, life is so cool! Now I find friends seem strange, they look me up and down and say Ibm different Somethingbs gone, and somethingbs added by living every day. I've looked at life from both sides now, From win and lose, and still somehow It's life's illusions i recall. I really don't know life at all. B Ibve studied life for a long time now Sometimes win, sometimes lose Like a cloud, full of falsehood (sign false, false, false) Life, I honestly donbt understand. Hope you find this interesting! B I did! B If you would like to thank Joan for all the time she put into this, please send your note to my email address, and I'll forward it to her. Love, Laura See, see, see sky, shapes, angel hair Ice cream castles there (this next bit is tough b she sort of drew canyons in the air and then placed them with her open palm-out hands) See, see, see clouds that way Change, now different, sun block Snow, rain all over My goal, goal, goal difficult Goal, goal, goal clouds block B See, see, see clouds, look-left beautiful, look-right difficult conflict Clouds (left), clouds (right) block, Still here way (?), cloud obscure I remember (shebs using a lovely sign, exaggerated almost beyond recognition, that refers to looking back at a previous event) Really mull-over clouds, I not understand, puzzled. B B B B B B Moon, months, ferris wheel Twirl around, inspire love Every story life becomes true true (Canbt figure out this sign) love way. Push-aside, different, conflict What for (why) love brag, escape, escape, donbt care Cherish? B Express it b no, hold it in (very nicely done!) Keep quiet (shhh!) b safe. B See, see, see love Both look-left, look-right Still inflate (feel great), deflate (feel crummy) But way, no-matter, remember, Love I mull-over Live love, I REALLY puzzled. B B Joan wrote: B "When I repeated a sign (like bsee, see, seeb), that means it shouldnbt have been repeated.B She should have signed bLook-atb b ONCE. B This gives you an idea of what the deaf people saw, but it doesnbt tell you how they understood it." To help us understand how the deaf people likely understood it, Joan wrote a translation below each stanza: Bows and flows of angel hair andB ice cream castles in the air And feather canyons everywhere, i've looked at cloud that way. But now they only block the sun, they rain and snow on everyone. So many things i would have done but clouds got in my way. B You also need to know that there are two kinds of sign language.B One is a word-for-word translation of the English (we call it transliterating) b& the signs are produced inB English word order, omitting words like btheb and bofb and some others.B This is not a true interpretation, but it is desirable for someone who grew up using English and is familiar with the idiomatic use of English phrases.B If I lost my hearing, this is the kind of interpreting I would want.B Tell me the words, and Ibll figure out what they mean.B The other is a concept-for-concept interpretation.B It may use some or all of the actual words being spoken, or none of them, but the ideas will be conveyed accurately.B This is for Deaf people who are not familiar with English, and this is the form I would use if I were interpreting aB Joni Mitchell song.B I donbt know which form the interpreter you are discussing used.B It depends on the Deaf audience and their preferred language. B I guess you also need to know that an awful lot of sign language is conveyed through facial expression and the placement (in space) of the signs.B For example, when signing the first line of the song, I would look up toward the sky with sparkling eyes and a joyful smile on my face, and my signs would be high in the air to my left.B At the third line, my face would turn sad, wrinkled brow, and my signs will still be high, but to my right.B This pattern will be followed throughout the song: the first two lines with a happy face and slightly to my left, the last two with a furrowed, sad face and slightly to my right.B That sets up my bboth sides nowb for each verse. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:03:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Both Sides Now, Sign Language I agree Mark, and I think my friend Joan who I quoted does too. I think she's the best with body language and facial expressions when she signs. I've never seen a more beautiful interpretation than her's, especially when she signs songs. Love, Laura ________________________________ From: Mark-Leon Thorne To: sillyseabird@yahoo.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 7:13:11 AM Subject: Re: Both Sides Now, Sign Language Laura, subtle nuances can be expressed in sign language. I speak Auslan (Australian Sign Language) but it's the same in ASL. Sign language is more that hand signs, it consists of body language and facial expressions too. It is when you combine these, you get the subtleties. Mark in Sydney NP All This Time - Sting ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:51:40 -0700 (PDT) From: jlamadoo@sbcglobal.net Subject: Subject: Both Sides Now, Sign Language Laura, please thank your friend Joan for translating "Both Sides Now". I enjoyed it and I have a better appreciation for signing. Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:51:28 -0700 From: "peterh" Subject: Bridge Concert Hi everyone, Already written up in Rolling Stone Buffalo Springfield Bridge School Reunion a Triumph | Rolling Stone Music http://www.rollingstone.com/ thought you might enjoy this ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 18:17:23 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: Feeling free and female sexuality Thanks for re-posting this, Mark--it still has those "Bs" in it, but it's much easier to read. And thanks to all for a fascinating discussion. I'm kind of amazed at the extreme differences between Lieve and Laura's nuns, and their experiences of the Catholic church in general. (Recovering Lutheran here who grew up in a Catholic-dominated small town. The Catholic boys were definitely more experienced and more fun, for whatever that's worth!) I don't know that I feel as much ambivalence about the outcomes of the sexual revolution and the women's movement(s) as some, but I do think I get why Joni never identified herself as a feminist per se. As for the piece that started all this, I have to agree w/Mark. I've never been big on academic writing style, and it was a real chore to plow thru it. The lyric misquotes are especially annoying--simply no excuse for that. This was published--it's not as if it was a hastily composed blog post. (Thanks for doing the digging on the origins of the article and its author. Saved me a little time. ;-) ). I also like that Mark highlighted that particular part of "Blue," which had huge resonance for me at the time--altho with a different emphasis. My teenage struggles w/peer pressure and freedom were much more about drugs than sex. I viewed sex with my boyfriend (I've always been a serial monogamist, as Joni would say) as a romantic expression of love (tho, of course, that wasn't the way he saw it at the time--ha!), and thus felt no guilt over it, despite my parent's attempts to impose it. (Extreme fear of getting pregnant, yes. Guilt, no. I made up my mind about that before I started in.) The only peer pressure I had was from my best friend, who disapproved of "going all the way." I related to the verse "Acid, booze and ass, needles, guns and grass, lotsa laughs . . ." strictly as the straight girl in love with the biggest druggie in high school, always surrounded at his stupid black-light parties by his tripping, joint-passing friends, who all gave me no end of shite about not participating. (I didn't even drink.) I never understood why it threatened them, because in the beginning, I just sat there, wanting to be with my guy, not caring (or criticizing) what anybody else was doing. And it never occurred to me to "just try it" because they wanted me to. When it (finally!) became evident to me that my boyfriend was far more in love with doing drugs than he was with me, I started fighting back. And that's where words like Joni's bolstered me against these fools. Even tho I knew my own mind and had no trouble speaking it, it was empowering to find my feelings expressed so beautifully and fiercely by this woman. "Everybody's saying that hell's the hippest way to go, well I DON'T THINK SO, but I'm gonna take a look around it tho, blue, I love you"---for me, that described (and validated) my decision to try to stick it out and save this relationship that I was incapable of fully walking away from. To me it meant that if I was going to have my heart ripped out over this, I was at least going to try to understand why getting deeper into drugs (he was heading into heroin) was more compelling than being in love (and lust) with me. (Big surprise: I never did find out--ha!) This has gone far afield from the original focus, but maybe it will have some resonance for someone out there. Or not. :-) Terra On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Mark wrote: > Trying again. > > -----Original Message----- From: Lieve Reckers > > > Hi Laura and Jerry, > I wouldn't deny that you make valid points, but it's all a bit one sided, > isn't > it? I cannot believe for one minute (and I would be very sad if I had to > believe) that Joni's conclusion is to totally reject the real sexual > liberation > that happened in the '60s and '70s. It was very much needed, I feel. Of > course, it led to excesses and some unexpected negative consequences, but > let's > identify those without condemning the whole liberation, which I feel was a > very > joyous, empowering process. Of course, Joni is right, nothing is ever > totally > free, we end up getting the bill presented at the most unexpected moments, > but > still... isn't it sometimes worth it? > > ...... > I cannot imagine that Joni has lost all those ideals. > I know, sometimes when I see the excesses, I feel like giving it all up > too. > Yes, sex kills. And sex sells everything. When I see the way sex is > exploited, > cheapened, vulgarised, I want to "get myself to a nunnery", to mis-quote > Shakespeare. But it's like saying you give up on friendship, just because > some > friends let you down. > > > Lieve, > > I agree with you here that Joni has never advocated a total rejection of > sexual liberation. Yes, she did write b Sex Killsb and made comments about > b free loveb and nothing ever being free. You pay and pay, as she says. > > But four years after the release of b Sex Killsb she recorded b Happiness > Is the Best Faceliftb which certainly references the sexual nature of a > romantic relationship and the stigma still attached to sex out of wedlock by > her motherb s generation. The same record includes the song she co-wrote > with the man she was having a relationship at the time b The Crazy Cries of > Loveb which is a celebration of unrestrained sexual expression. > > When I read this article, I found myself feeling more and more ambivalent > about it. So I did a wee bit of sleuthing to find out what the publication > was about and who the author was. I didnb t find much but I did find this > about the author: b A former attorney, Marilyn Adler Papayanis received her > Ph.D. from Rutgers University and teaches English at Montclair State > University. She was named winner of the 2001 Durell Prize for Scholarship.b > About the publication I found: b Popular Music and Society, founded in > 1971, publishes articles, book reviews, and audio reviews on popular music > of any genre, time period, or geographic location. Popular Music and Society > is open to all scholarly orientations toward popular music, including (but > not limited to) historical, theoretical, critical, sociological, and > cultural approaches. The terms "popular" and "society" are broadly defined > to accommodate a wide range of articles on the subject.b > So this is a bit different from a piece written for b Vanity Fairb or b > The Rolling Stone'. It is more like a scholarly thesis. It even states its > intention of what it will say at the beginning, says it and sums up what it > just said at the end. Just like a thesis. > > At first I thought, b Great! A serious analysis of Jonib s lyrics!b And > the article did make me think about a lot of things I would not have > otherwise. The various narrative structures of the songs, for instance b > subject/object, passive/active b was fascinating to me. > > But I was also somewhat put off by the writing style. It seems almost like > the author chose words and phrases just to showcase her vocabulary and > knowledge of language. Perhaps that comes with the territory of this type > of writing. Although there isnb t anything that requires a Ph. D. in > English to understand, I was somewhat put off by this. I was also irritated > by the misquoting of many of the lyrics. Although the discrepancies usually > did not change the essential thoughts or meanings, it seems to me that if > someone is going to write what seems to be a scholarly thesis on some aspect > of Joni Mitchellb s lyrics, they would at least take the trouble to quote > those lyrics accurately. > > A while ago, Michel Byrne wrote a response to my complaint about the line b > mermaids live in coloniesb in the song b The Dawntreaderb that suggested > the line might be a reference to manb s fantasy of a b harem of temptresses > waiting for him somewhere far out at sea (maybe an implication that he > 'collects' lovers, and that she's aware of only being the latest in a long > line of catches). b (I was going to respond to that post but somehow never > got around to it. Sorry, Michel.) That got me to thinking about b Cactus > Treeb and wondering when there had ever before been a song written from a > womanb s point of view about unashamedly having multiple lovers and how it > would have been received, say, only 5 years earlier. As Marilyn Adler > Papayanis pointed out, the pen-ultimate line of the last verse of 'Little > Greenb is b Youb re sad and youb re sorry but *youb re not ashamed*b . I > think there is a key here as to what Jonib s lyrics about sexuality project. > Like many things in our lives, sex is something that should be experienced > responsibly. But it is *not* something that should be a source of shame or > guilt. > > Certainly disease has contributed to the demonization of sex over the > recorded history of humans. Patriarchal systems have also played their part > by imposing strict rules of monogamy on women that come from the maleb s > primitive need to preserve a pure genetic line. Various religious beliefs > probably sprang up at least partially as a result of both of these > attitudes. > > > But what it boils down to is feeling free to fulfill a fundamental physical > and psychological need that is present in all of us. This is putting aside > the whole issue of the primitive instinct to reproduce and preserve the > species which Ib m not going to go into. I do think the importance of sex > and sexual attractiveness has been blown up way out of proportion in some > ways. Speaking as a gay male, I certainly know the consequences of buying > into that. Obviously I canb t address the subject from a womanb s point of > view. But I do think that sexuality, as long as it is combined with a sense > of responsibility and awareness of its possible consequences, should be free > for consenting adults to express in any way they choose or that their > natures dictate. I agree with Laura, that Joni was writing, consciously or > not, about sexual liberation for both men and women. > > That being said, there is what I think is a significant part of the song b > Blueb that Papayanis does not touch on: > > > Acid booze and ass > Needles guns and grass > Lots of laughs > Lots of laughs > > Everybodyb s saying that > Hellb s the hippest way to go > Well I donb t think so > But Ib m going to take a look around it though > > Granted, the expression b assb is decidedly male, in my mind anyway. But > there is still a degree of doubt that Joni expressed here about the > hedonistic atmosphere she was living in and b assb or sex was decidedly a > part of that. The article did point out, however, that the song b Cactus > Treeb was not about a list of conquests but rather that the woman in > question feels love for all of the men she is periodically involved with. > But she is unwilling to sacrifice her b freedomb to commit to just one. > And by freedom, I think Joni meant something far more encompassing than the > freedom to have sexual relations with multiple lovers. But what b Cactus > Treeb describes is not the same as what the word b assb or the phrase b > piece of assb implies. > > It would be interesting to see a follow-up of this article that encompasses > Jonib s later songs that explore her conflict between the old 50s, early 60s > view of romantic love involving the preservation of female chastity until > the sanctification of marriage and the eventual rejection of that model. b > Song for Sharonb is one of her most telling examples of this conflict b b > But the ceremony of the bells and lace still veils this reckless fool here b > continuing up through b Don Juanb s Reckless Daughterb b b there is > danger and education in living out such a reckless lifestyleb b notice the > repetition of the word b recklessb - and all the way up to the conflict > with Myrtle over being b shacked up downtown making love without a license, > same old sacred cowb in b Happiness is the Best Faceliftb . I donb t think > she ever has resolved the conflict of her need for connection and love with > her need for autonomy, whether that autonomy be the freedom to pursue her > own career path or find a partnership unshackled by b jealousy and greedb > or just the right to freely express her sexuality with whomever she > pleases. > > > Finally, I have to say that I did *not* write this sentence of the article > (or any of the rest of it): > > b In some sense, I like to think of Dylan and Mitchell as popular music > analogues to modernist icons James Joyce and Virginia Woolf.b > Thank you to Kakki, Jerry, Lieve, Laura and everyone who has contributed to > this thread. I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts and, as I said, as > a male I cannot possibly see these issues from a womanb s point of view. So > it has been enlightening to see what some of you have had to say about it. > > Mark in Seattle - -- "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." - ---Louise Bourgeois ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:47:42 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Bridge Concert Very cool. Where are the videos?? Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Oct 24, 2010, at 12:51 PM, peterh wrote: Hi everyone, Already written up in Rolling Stone Buffalo Springfield Bridge School Reunion a Triumph | Rolling Stone Music http://www.rollingstone.com/ thought you might enjoy this ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:25:17 -0400 From: Subject: Re: question, 100% Joni content In my opinion, Karen O'Brien's book about Joni is a biography. She consulted with several people on the JMDL when doing research. Her book is "Joni Mitchell: Shadows and Light". I bought mine as a new hardback and paid about $30. A quick look on Amazon reveals no bargains there. I'd recommend watching Ebay (daily) until a reasonably priced copy comes around. In the mean time, there are hundreds of articles available on Les Irvin's website http://jonimitchell.com/library/ You could start with a series of biographical articles by Wally Breese. Karen did lots of her research on Les' site anyway so you are going straight to the source. She did get a few interviews to supplement her research but (if I remember correctly) she didn't get Joni to spill. Jim L'Hommedieu Lama >After reading Sheila Weller's book this summer, I have embarked on a retrospective journey of my youth via Joni's extraordinary body of work and am listening to it daily. I sent a small message earlier, asking whether a really good biography on Joni had been written.> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:37:04 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: question, 100% Joni content > I'd also recommend checking http://www.addall.com/ for the O'Brien book. > It searches and links to a large number of online booksellers all at once. > It's really frustrating that this excellent book remains out of print. > > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, wrote: > >> In my opinion, Karen O'Brien's book about Joni is a biography. She >> consulted with several people on the JMDL when doing research. Her book is >> "Joni Mitchell: Shadows and Light". I bought mine as a new hardback and >> paid about $30. A quick look on Amazon reveals no bargains there. I'd >> recommend watching Ebay (daily) until a reasonably priced copy comes around. >> >> In the mean time, there are hundreds of articles available on Les Irvin's >> website >> http://jonimitchell.com/library/ >> >> You could start with a series of biographical articles by Wally Breese. >> >> Karen did lots of her research on Les' site anyway so you are going >> straight to the source. She did get a few interviews to supplement her >> research but (if I remember correctly) she didn't get Joni to spill. >> >> Jim L'Hommedieu >> Lama >> >> >After reading Sheila Weller's book this summer, I have embarked on a >> retrospective journey of my youth via Joni's extraordinary body of >> work and am listening to it daily. >> >> I sent a small message earlier, asking whether a really good >> biography on Joni had been written.> >> > > > > -- > "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." > ---Louise Bourgeois > - -- ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #297 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe