From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #263 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 21 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 263 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- BEST JONI LINES [Mary Morris ] RE: Has Joni ever written a rhyme you've not liked? [Susan Tierney McNama] For those who own the Joni Mitchell Complete sheet music book ... [Susan ] RE: clandestine & Rhyin' Simon er...Joni ["Robert Sartorius" Subject: BEST JONI LINES How about : "It slithers away on brass like mouthpiece spit". There are so many. All of them gifts. Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 03:00:11 -0400 > From: owner-joni-digest@smoe.org > To: joni-digest@smoe.org > Subject: JMDL Digest V2010 #280 > > > JMDL Digest Monday, September 20 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 280 > > > > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: Rhymin' Simon ... er, Joni [T Peckham ] > Long Overdue Report (NJC) [Michael Paz ] > Re: Joni worst rhymes - how about best lines? [Deb Messling Re: Rhymin' Simon ... er, Joni [Paul Ivice ] > favorite lines [Paul Ivice ] > Re: Rhymin' Simon ... er, Joni [Catherine McKay ] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:13:52 -0500 > From: T Peckham > Subject: Re: Rhymin' Simon ... er, Joni > > Much ado about (arguably) very little, but interesting nonetheless. > Webster's 11th has "clanDEStin" as the primary pronunciation. It is followed > by the word *also,* which in this context means "A variant that is > appreciably less common than the preceding variant . . .". Then it lists > [clanDES] tine *or* teen *or* CLANdes [tin, tine, teen]. *"Or"* in Web 11 > parlance means *"equal to."* Then we have this from p. 12a, > Pronunciation/Variant Pronunciations: "The presence of variant > pronunciations indicates that *not all educated speakers pronounce words the > same way*. A second-place variant is not to be regarded as less acceptable > than the pronunciation that is given first." This refers specifically to > pronunciations Web 11 deem equal to each other, as in creek or crick. (In > these here parts, "crick" would come first.) However, this is not the case > with clandestine, as explained above, so I suppose that leaves the door open > for disagreement. > > I always heard clanDEStin growing up. But when I first heard Joni's > "clandesTINE" in "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow," I heard it as a very young > singer soaking up everything Joni did, but most notably her utterly > ingenious phrasing, which was a revelation to me. (Still is). It never > occurred to me that she was clunkily mispronouncing it in order to make it > rhyme. Same with "schoo-ells." I always go back to the Stephen Davis > review that compelled me to buy my first Joni album, *For the Roses.* Here's > the quote: > > "Yet her great charm and wit, her intense vocal acting and* phrasing > abilities (the way she chooses to deal with a single word can change the > feeling of an entire song)* and the sheer power and gumption of her presence > combine to bring it all off and make it shine." > http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=257&from=search > I used that when I was learning to sing and trying to write songs, and never > forgot it when singing covers. It's stuff like this that has made her such a > major influence on so many generations of singers and musicians, whether > they realize it or not. > [Sorry if this comes out in funky formatting. Gmail has gone all > double-spaced on me!] > T > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 4:28 PM, wrote: > > > I think you are mistaken, Paul. > > > > Turn your speakers on and click here: > > http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=clandestine&submit=Submit > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > "An artist can show things that other people are terrified of expressing." > - ---Louise Bourgeois > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:42:19 -0500 > From: Michael Paz > Subject: Long Overdue Report (NJC) > > After some time has passed I decided it is high time for me to offer up my > report on PazFest II. Although I am still feeling like I am missing a rib or > something, my heart is filled with joy and happiness at what we achieved here > Labor Day weekend. To all the folks who came to PazFest II, I am so grateful > for your friendship and genuine love. My entire family had a blast with all of > you and we are still reeling from the great fun we had that weekend. The party > at my house was extra special because it was mostly us without all those pesky > New Orleans musicians lurking around and distracting us. WE raised alot of > money for the foundation and donations continue to come in from all of you > wonderful people )even ones who came to the fest). > For those of you who didn't come, Jody headed up an ambush to organize a > beautiful gift for my family that was so thoughtful in so many ways and we > love it. A beautiful 13 quart cooking pot by Le Crueset which we cooked a > gumbo for the party and will cook so many more meals in the future. We always > think of you guys when we use it and we hope that you all come share at our > table again soon. Freda thinks we should do PazFest twice a year now and she > loves them crazy Joni Peoples. In all seriousness she was very touched by you > guys and blown away at how EVERYONE chipped in to help in all things > (including Bob Ward cleaning our grill). No longer will she think we are some > kind of cult or virtual stalkers!!! (ok hunny slip on these tennis shoes and > lay down and drink your kool-aid the mothership will be here shortly). > The pre show at the Ogden was really special and I was so honored that they > let me host in the Patrick Taylor Library. Not just anyone gets in there to do > what they want. I was able to record the show on 2-track audio and I am hoping > that it came out pretty good cause there was some amazing magic that happened > there. > Day before yesterday I put up the multi tracks and started listening to the > recordings. I had quite a bit of trouble with the hard disk that has all these > precious memories but finally got it working. The really bad news is that my > pal Sue Tierney McNamara's set is lost from the Wolf as is a portion of Kate > Bennett's and this breaks my heart cause they both did so well and I was > blessed to have them participate. I can only fault myself for this as I did > make sure the engineer was rolling tape before we started that night and that > is the only reason. Too many details, not enough Paz's! I am up to Bryan > Thomas's set at the moment and wOw there are some amazing things as well as a > couple of real clunkers but hey it's all good. Bryan of course knocked another > one way out the park thru center field and made a whole in one and split the > uprights at the football field down the street. I hope to have these rough > mixed soon and get them out to all of you who participated. I have not even > thought about the video as yet, but will get there as well. That night was so > special standing on stage playing a Joni tune with my two sons and my oldest's > best friend and my dear friend Pedro from Topanga! WoW I can't tell you what > it feels like but I will never forget it. > I think everyone has given great reports about the touristing fun and the > performers etc. so I won't give my accounts of all that. Needless to say I had > a great time at my own party and I could not stop smiling the whole time. I > don' think I even thought "I will never do THIS again!!" LMAO! I promise to > make some comments on all the individual performances once I get thru the task > of mixing them etc. Still trying to figure out how I will proceed with the > project. > I have a bunch of pictures that I will try and get up on Facebook this week > and I will send ya'll the link. I am home for 6 weeks so there is plenty of > time for projects. > > In the meantime I just got home from a short tour with the band that started > in Indiana. WE were in Indianapolis for 3 days and I was invited by another > amazing lurker on the JMDL. LuAnn Lancton who reached out to me and invited me > over to her home to have dinner with her and her husband Bill who is an > amazing guitarist. WE had an amazing evening and I want to thank them so much > for the hospitality and generosity especially coming out of such and amazing > weekend with old friends. We had a lovely evening of cocktails, shrimp on the > barbie, pork loin with mango salsa and roasted veggies and then a jam session > with Bill and getting to play another one of Joni's old Ibanez Guitars (#4 > actually)-(Hi Anita and Steph!!!!) Now I have actually played two of them. It > is a gorgeous piece. They have a lovely home and its filled with Joni stuff > all over the place. I hope they come out of lurkdom and join in on one of the > upcoming fests. I hear there is one being planned in Honduras as we speak. > Perhaps for the Grand Opening of the Hospital next year after we work out all > the kinks. > > > Love to you all and miss you. > > > Paz > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > Tour Manager > Preservation Hall Jazz Band > http://www.preservationhall.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 21:52:29 -0400 > From: Deb Messling > Subject: Re: Joni worst rhymes - how about best lines? > > A thunderhead of judgment was > Gathering in my gaze > > > And looking down on everything > I crashed into his arms > > > You give me such pleasure > You bring me such pain > Who left her long black hair > In our bathtub drain? > > > Why have you soured and curdled me? > > > > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Deb Messling -^..^- > dlmessling@rcn.com > http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 22:57:33 -0400 > From: Paul Ivice > Subject: Re: Rhymin' Simon ... er, Joni > > I am not mistaken because I never made a judgment about whether Joni's > pronunciation was good or bad. The question I answered was what was the most > unusual phrasing or pronunciation in a line of Joni's songs. > Regardless of the outcome of the exchange, Joni's pronunciation of > "clan-des-TINE" remains the most unusual pronunciation I have heard in any of > her songs. > The first three online dictionaries I consulted agreed with the pronunciation > I had always heard as correct, both growing up in the U.S. Midwest and living > almost half my life now in the South. > After citing that evidence, I asked if anyone had any authoritative evidence > to the contrary. And now I have heard such evidence as provided in the link > below, which describes the "clan-DES-tin" pronunciation as the American. > > > Paul Ivice ;>) > > > > - -----Original Message----- > From: T Peckham > > Then we have this from p. 12a, Pronunciation/Variant Pronunciations: "The > presence of variant pronunciations indicates that not all educated speakers > pronounce words the same way. A second-place variant is not to be regarded as > less acceptable than the pronunciation that is given first." This refers > specifically to pronunciations Web 11 deem equal to each other, as in creek or > crick. (In these here parts, "crick" would come first.) However, this is not > the case with clandestine, as explained above, so I suppose that leaves the > door open for disagreement. > > > I always heard clanDEStin growing up. But when I first heard Joni's > "clandesTINE" in "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow," I heard it as a very young > singer soaking up everything Joni did, but most notably her utterly ingenious > phrasing, which was a revelation to me. (Still is). It never occurred to me > that she was clunkily mispronouncing it in order to make it rhyme. Same with > "schoo-ells." I always go back to the Stephen Davis review that compelled me > to buy my first Joni album, For the Roses. Here's the quote: > > > > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 4:28 PM, wrote: > > I think you are mistaken, Paul. > > Turn your speakers on and click here: > http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=clandestine&submit=Submit > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 23:01:53 -0400 > From: Paul Ivice > Subject: favorite lines > > There are many, but one that just came to mind as I get my nightly background > listed to "The Last Waltz" is :He's staring a hole in his scrambled eggs." > > > Paul Ivice ;>) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 20:16:22 -0700 (PDT) > From: Catherine McKay > Subject: Re: Rhymin' Simon ... er, Joni > > So, for you the issue is more that you hear the accent on the last syllable of > clandestine? Interesting, because I hear it on the middle one - clan-DES-tine. > Maybe the long /i/ in the last syllable (as Joni pronounces it) makes it sound > like there's more emphasis on the last, but, to my ears, it's more like they've > all (or at least the last two) got almost equal emphasis. > > Sorry to flog this. I was trying to ignore it because I've never been altogether > clear how to pronounce that word, since it's one I've generally seen, rather > than heard. I have no particular issue with it either way - they both sound OK > to me. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Ivice > To: northern.muse@gmail.com; rflynn@frontiernet.net > Cc: joni@smoe.org; mark.travis@frontier.com; mark-leon@iinet.net.au > Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 10:57:33 PM > Subject: Re: Rhymin' Simon ... er, Joni > > I am not mistaken because I never made a judgment about whether Joni's > pronunciation was good or bad. The question I answered was what was the most > unusual phrasing or pronunciation in a line of Joni's songs. > Regardless of the outcome of the exchange, Joni's pronunciation of > "clan-des-TINE" remains the most unusual pronunciation I have heard in any of > her songs. > > ------------------------------ > > End of JMDL Digest V2010 #280 > ***************************** > > ------- > Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org > Unsubscribe by clicking here: > mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe > ------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:36:27 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Has Joni ever written a rhyme you've not liked? Hi Mark, The Dawntreader ... I've been playing it for three days now and although that lyric is a little too precious, the incomparable beauty of the melody has me mesmerized. I can honestly say it's been years since I've played this tune and I don't think I will be able to stop for around a week. The chord change on "he stakes all his siiilllverrr ..." kills me. So although I'm in slight agreement about the mermaid thing, I would gladly die with this beautiful melody echoing in my head. It makes me yearn for the North Carolina coast ... ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue Tierney || || McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell - -----Original Message----- From: Mark [mailto:mark.travis@frontier.com] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 12:35 AM To: Susan Tierney McNamara; Anita G; jonilist JMDL Subject: Re: Has Joni ever written a rhyme you've not liked? That one is a mouthful, isn't it? But I actually like it. Coupled with the previous line it sustains the metaphor very well, imo: The pirate he will sink you with a kiss he'll steal your heart and sail away And leave you drowning in the flotsam of a broken promise in the bay And knowing that 'Man From Mars' was about her cat I guess I always figured the 'one big boo-hoo' was kind of a humorously sly wink. It never bothered me that much. There is one rhyme that is from what is one of my very favorite songs that has always sounded a bit contrived to me. Not so much because it sounds bad but it just seems that the second line was made up solely to rhyme with the first: He stakes all his silver on a promise to be free Mermaids live in colonies True, mermaids are associated with the sea but there just doesn't seem to be a completely logical progression there. And Joni's writing at its best flows so beautifully. She has such a gift for putting language together, sequencing her words and phrases in structured, beautiful but seemingly logical, natural ways. Mark in Seattle (pea green with envy again at the thought of all you lucky people getting to experience Robin, Dave and the Mutts over across the Pond) - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Tierney McNamara" Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 12:02 PM To: "Anita G" ; "jonilist JMDL" Subject: RE: Has Joni ever written a rhyme you've not liked? > He'll leave you drowning in the flotsam of a broken promise in the bay ... > > > ___________________ > /___________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue Tierney || > || McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Anita > G > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 2:47 PM > To: jonipeople LIST > Subject: Has Joni ever written a rhyme you've not liked? > > I've intonated that I was never overly keen on Joni's rhyming on > jewels and schools (as joo-els and scoo-els) on LOTC, which she later > rectified somewhere, but I can't recall where. Are there any other > times when Joni's meticulous use of language, poetry and rhythm has > not lived up to your expectations? > Anita > PS Think beyond 'Shine' if you can..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:54:04 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: For those who own the Joni Mitchell Complete sheet music book ... I've been trying to work through this book (which was leant to me by dear friend Walt Breen). I'm up to Blue and have only found two song tunings I grossly disagree with ... I Had A King and That Song About the Midway ... which coincidentally are in the same tuning DADEAD ... the author has them in a weird E tuning ... anyone else have issues with this? Thanks, Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue Tierney || || McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:23:33 -0400 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: RE: clandestine & Rhyin' Simon er...Joni Apropos of both the back and forth re the word "clandestine", and the thread re Joni's best lines, I would note that my Random House Dictionary of the English Language (Second Edition - (c)1987) shows "clan des'tin" as the only pronunciation. It is the finest book I own :-). I wonder what the current edition has to offer. For, as Joni once wrote: "Everything comes and goes Marked by lovers, and styles of clothes" Without opining on the "silent 'th'" in clothes, I think pronunciations (and meanings) just tend to evolve. That evolution can leave me feeling pleased, uncaring, ambivalent or even distressed, depending on the change. An example (for me) of the latter reaction is the impending extinction of the word "loath". That it would go out of style altogether is no problem for me. But I loathe the way in which it died - mispronounced (and even misspelled!) as its hateful third cousin. I knew things had pretty much reached the end about 10 years ago when it appeared in a sentence in the New Yorker magazine (of all places) in the form of (and I paraphrase here, taking some literary license in order to make a point) "I am loathe to criticize in areas in which I am less than expert....." :-) Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:38:33 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Fwd: Kristin Diable invited you to the event "Kristin Diable @ The Living Room - NYC"... Hi Kids My friend Kristen Diable (who played at PazFest II will be playing in NYC on Weds at the Living Room at 9pm at the Crash Mansion on the 23 and at the Rockwood Music Hall on Sept 26. Check her out if you can and be sure to tell her that Paz said hello from New Orleans. Best Paz Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com Begin forwarded message: From: Facebook Date: September 20, 2010 11:21:04 AM CDT To: michael@thepazgroup.com Subject: Kristin Diable invited you to the event "Kristin Diable @ The Living Room - NYC"... Reply-To: noreply facebook Hi, Kristin invited you to Kristin Diable @ The Living Room - NYC and says "Hi Friends! Excited to get back to NYC for a round of shows this week. Sure hope to see you. Sept 22 @ The Living Room (9pm), Sept 23rd @ Crash Mansion, Sept 26th @ Rockwood Music Hall (midnight). xo, kd". Kristin Diable @ The Living Room - NYC Wednesday, September 22 at 8:30pm Location: The Living Room Are you attending? Yes - No - Maybe Remove from My Events Thanks, The Facebook Team To see more details and RSVP, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=160778270605890&mid=301871eG53a8bf5a G0G7&n_m=michael%40thepazgroup.com This message was intended for michael@thepazgroup.com. If you do not wish to receive this type of email from Facebook in the future, please follow the link below to unsubscribe. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=27ab95&u=1403567962&mid=301871eG53a8bf5aG0G7 Facebook, Inc. P.O. Box 10005, Palo Alto, CA 94303 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:51:44 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Kristin Diable invited you to the event "Kristin Diable @ The Living Room - NYC"... I loved her performance at The Wolf and picked up 2 of her CD's (music $lut that I am). Definitely worth checking out. Bob NP: Neil Young, "Walk On" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:19:22 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Has Joni ever written a rhyme you've not liked? Sue wrote: "I would gladly die with this beautiful melody echoing in my head." Hi Sue. You would get no argument or disagreement from me on the above. Personally I love 'The Dawntreader', both versions of it. The mermaid thing is just a small quibble. And now that we know the back story about 'the dream of a baby', it makes it very poignant as well. The song lulls me like the ebb and flow of the ocean. It takes me back to a cabin perched on a cliff in a small resort on the Washington coast, looking way out the ocean and hearing it speak to me from down below. Never mind their questions there's no answer for..... Glad you are loving playing it so much. Mark in Seattle - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Tierney McNamara" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:36 AM To: "Mark" ; "Anita G" ; "jonilist JMDL" Subject: RE: Has Joni ever written a rhyme you've not liked? > Hi Mark, > > The Dawntreader ... I've been playing it for three days now and although > that lyric is a little too precious, the incomparable beauty of the melody > has me mesmerized. I can honestly say it's been years since I've played > this tune and I don't think I will be able to stop for around a week. The > chord change on "he stakes all his siiilllverrr ..." kills me. So > although I'm in slight agreement about the mermaid thing, I would gladly > die with this beautiful melody echoing in my head. It makes me yearn for > the North Carolina coast ... > > > ___________________ > /___________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue Tierney || > || McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #263 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe