From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #188 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, July 7 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 188 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Mike Pritchard ] RE: Your notches, liberation doll [Mags ] Your notches & Pat Benatar [Michel BYRNE ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll? [Susan Tierney McNamara ] You're Notches [simon@icu.com] Re: Your notches, liberation doll? [Catherine McKay ] the people who get the most out of my music ... [simon@icu.com] RE: You're Notches ["Les Irvin" ] RE: You're Notches ["Les Irvin" ] Re: You're Notches [Gerald Notaro ] Re: (no subject) [Michael Paz ] RE: You're Notches ["Les Irvin" ] Re: You're Notches [Michael Paz ] Re: You're Notches [Gerald Notaro ] re: Joni Multiple Guitars, Different tunings [c Karma ] Re: Joni Multiple Guitars, Different tunings [Dave Blackburn ] Re: Joni Multiple Guitars, Different tunings ["Randy Remote" ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:47:53 +0200 From: Mike Pritchard Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Les Irwin said >>Most importantly, we are basically questioning the 'ownership' of the notches, right? Are the notches the 'room full of glasses' or are the notches the female character? "You (singular) are notches (plural)"? I don't know of anyone that would talk like that.<< Hi Les, How about it being an elliptical version of: "You (singular) are [one of a series of] notches (plural)"? I hope my inserted words are clear; if not let me say here that they are ONE OF A SERIES OF. How come you got all this transcribed but didnt ask about the spelling? What a rambling answer from Joni. Hi Leah  please dont confuse/conflate Foucault and Derrida. That way madness lies. mike in bcn np beauty is only skin deep - temptations ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 04:33:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: RE: Your notches, liberation doll oh Hell! wonderful to see you ! Glad this topic swings you round to the fold, from lurkdom. Tis one of my favourite topics as well, and I always get a charge reading the passion driven responses...great stuff. ;--) um. Did anyone see my post about Shakespeare's witches, my two cents worth explanation for "prophetic witches". Just wonderin' ;P Mags - --- On Mon, 7/5/10, hell@farmside.co.nz wrote: From: hell@farmside.co.nz Subject: RE: Your notches, liberation doll To: "Les Irvin" , joni@smoe.org Received: Monday, July 5, 2010, 6:29 PM Les wrote: > For me, "everyone of these bottles has your name on it" is the > key. As in, > "These bottles are your notches." > > That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. Until someone fills it full of > holes. Or notches. I think we finally have THE definitive answer - straight from the horse's mouth, as it were. Hell (who got hauled out of lurkdom by this damn thread - I think it's the most persistent over all the years I've been on this list) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:32:13 +0000 From: Michel BYRNE Subject: Your notches & Pat Benatar Funny Leah should mention Pat Benatar's hit 'Hit me with your best shot' - Joni referred to that very song to introduce A Case of You, at Red Rocks in 1983... (And thanks so much to Michael P - or was it Mark? - for uploading that concert!) Ethiopian wall - is this just a reference to the origins of humanity (until recently, at least, the oldest remains of a human being were to be found in Ethiopia, and East Africa generally). In the context of the Fall, Original Sin, the Garden of Eden... M _________________________________________________________________ http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/ We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:03:22 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Hey Mark and all ... This is one of my very favorite Joni songs to play and it's not only because of the fun guitar riff but also because this is exactly the way me and my ex-husband used to fight after getting drunk. I agree wholeheartedly with Mark that "your notches, liberation doll" refers to what we used to call "the dead bodies" lying around the room (in our case lots of beer bottles). What the mouse in the corner heard: "Don't give me that sh*t ... most of those dead bodies are yours too ..." In a rash moment I actually played this song for his mother when she was visiting. I'm not sure what my motives were but they clearly went right over her head!!! Don't interrupt the sorrow, indeed!!! :-) I'm of the camp that likes to interpret Joni's songs more about how they relate to my life than hers. I enjoy hearing why she wrote certain songs but it's not essential to my enjoyment. Take care, Sue PS I also like Mark's reference to Humphrey Bogart because the silver screen theme runs through a lot of the Hissing songs. - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:41:04 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? From the archives: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:52:03 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Covert Complicity, notches > As for "you're notches liberation doll", I really don't have a clue. " We've gone over this one before. I still say (and will go to my grave saying it unless Siquomb herself tells me personally that I am dead wrong) that the man is referring to the room full of glasses from the previous line. Those glasses are 'your notches' like a gunfighter's notches on his gun belt or notches on a bedpost. He's saying, 'You made me a drunk with your independent, uppity, competitive (unfeminine) ways. You can chalk every glass of wine I drank up to your score. They're your notches, liberation doll.' Liberation doll is a sneering & derisive name he's throwing at her. Men used to call women they were attracted to doll at one time. Just watch some of those old Humphrey Bogart movies. That's my story & I'm sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Present day Mark in Seattle says he's still sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Wishing all of us USA JMDLers a happy 4th. So far it's cool & cloudy and it's supposed to stay that way with a chance of occasional showers. Summer has yet to arrive in the Puget Sound region. - - -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:32:42 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni_Multiple Guitars_Odd Line Breaks Dave Blackburn asked > Why did you not travel with multiple guitars in different tunings > instead of retuning on stage? yesterday I sent -3- seperate messages in response to Dave's question. all -3- appeared in the JMDL Digest with odd line breaks, making them difficult to read. I thought about resending them but decided against it since I've already heard from Dave and apparently they look fine to those members who receive the Individual messages. what I did do is UpLoad them via YouSentIt. those few who might be interested can download them at the following URL: andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:09:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? You live and you learn. I've never heard anyone refer to beer bottles (or other bottles) as either "notches" or "dead bodies." It had never occurred to me that the glasses (or bottles) were the notches, or that the guy was blaming the girl for his drinking. Reading what Les posted about what Joni had to say about it did put that in perspective. My ex- and I could fight like that without drinking, sad to say. Blame is the name of the game (to my shame - heh-heh.) ________________________________ From: Susan Tierney McNamara To: "joni@smoe.org" Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 10:03:22 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Hey Mark and all ... This is one of my very favorite Joni songs to play and it's not only because of the fun guitar riff but also because this is exactly the way me and my ex-husband used to fight after getting drunk. I agree wholeheartedly with Mark that "your notches, liberation doll" refers to what we used to call "the dead bodies" lying around the room (in our case lots of beer bottles). What the mouse in the corner heard: "Don't give me that sh*t ... most of those dead bodies are yours too ..." In a rash moment I actually played this song for his mother when she was visiting. I'm not sure what my motives were but they clearly went right over her head!!! Don't interrupt the sorrow, indeed!!! :-) I'm of the camp that likes to interpret Joni's songs more about how they relate to my life than hers. I enjoy hearing why she wrote certain songs but it's not essential to my enjoyment. Take care, Sue PS I also like Mark's reference to Humphrey Bogart because the silver screen theme runs through a lot of the Hissing songs. - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:41:04 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? From the archives: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:52:03 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Covert Complicity, notches > As for "you're notches liberation doll", I really don't have a clue. " We've gone over this one before. I still say (and will go to my grave saying it unless Siquomb herself tells me personally that I am dead wrong) that the man is referring to the room full of glasses from the previous line. Those glasses are 'your notches' like a gunfighter's notches on his gun belt or notches on a bedpost. He's saying, 'You made me a drunk with your independent, uppity, competitive (unfeminine) ways. You can chalk every glass of wine I drank up to your score. They're your notches, liberation doll.' Liberation doll is a sneering & derisive name he's throwing at her. Men used to call women they were attracted to doll at one time. Just watch some of those old Humphrey Bogart movies. That's my story & I'm sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Present day Mark in Seattle says he's still sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Wishing all of us USA JMDLers a happy 4th. So far it's cool & cloudy and it's supposed to stay that way with a chance of occasional showers. Summer has yet to arrive in the Puget Sound region. - - - -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:13:58 -0400 From: Susan Tierney McNamara Subject: RE: Your notches, liberation doll? I was behind on digests before I sent this response, so I did read Les' transcript of Joni's explanation this morning. I also remember an article somewhere in the library where she talks about where she got the title to the song, too. Something about being in a bar and a friend using that term to describe a dysfunctional relationship. It's sad how after a while "the sorrow" is the only way sick couples communicate. Live and Learn ... also forgive (but never forget!!!) :) Sue From: Catherine McKay [mailto:anima_rising@yahoo.ca] Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 11:10 AM To: Susan Tierney McNamara; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? You live and you learn. I've never heard anyone refer to beer bottles (or other bottles) as either "notches" or "dead bodies." It had never occurred to me that the glasses (or bottles) were the notches, or that the guy was blaming the girl for his drinking. Reading what Les posted about what Joni had to say about it did put that in perspective. My ex- and I could fight like that without drinking, sad to say. Blame is the name of the game (to my shame - heh-heh.) ________________________________ From: Susan Tierney McNamara To: "joni@smoe.org" Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 10:03:22 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Hey Mark and all ... This is one of my very favorite Joni songs to play and it's not only because of the fun guitar riff but also because this is exactly the way me and my ex-husband used to fight after getting drunk. I agree wholeheartedly with Mark that "your notches, liberation doll" refers to what we used to call "the dead bodies" lying around the room (in our case lots of beer bottles). What the mouse in the corner heard: "Don't give me that sh*t ... most of those dead bodies are yours too ..." In a rash moment I actually played this song for his mother when she was visiting. I'm not sure what my motives were but they clearly went right over her head!!! Don't interrupt the sorrow, indeed!!! :-) I'm of the camp that likes to interpret Joni's songs more about how they relate to my life than hers. I enjoy hearing why she wrote certain songs but it's not essential to my enjoyment. Take care, Sue PS I also like Mark's reference to Humphrey Bogart because the silver screen theme runs through a lot of the Hissing songs. - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:41:04 -0700 From: "Mark" > Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? From the archives: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:52:03 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" > Subject: Re: Covert Complicity, notches > As for "you're notches liberation doll", I really don't have a clue. " We've gone over this one before. I still say (and will go to my grave saying it unless Siquomb herself tells me personally that I am dead wrong) that the man is referring to the room full of glasses from the previous line. Those glasses are 'your notches' like a gunfighter's notches on his gun belt or notches on a bedpost. He's saying, 'You made me a drunk with your independent, uppity, competitive (unfeminine) ways. You can chalk every glass of wine I drank up to your score. They're your notches, liberation doll.' Liberation doll is a sneering & derisive name he's throwing at her. Men used to call women they were attracted to doll at one time. Just watch some of those old Humphrey Bogart movies. That's my story & I'm sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Present day Mark in Seattle says he's still sticking to it! Mark in Seattle Wishing all of us USA JMDLers a happy 4th. So far it's cool & cloudy and it's supposed to stay that way with a chance of occasional showers. Summer has yet to arrive in the Puget Sound region. - - -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 11:17:21 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Hissing & The Rolling Thunder Review Mark-Leon Thorne wrote > > Many of the songs on THOSL was written during her time > on the Rolling Thunder Tour. I tend to place DITS with > Shades of Scarlett Conquering which we have discussed > before being about Ronnie Blake  the singer/actress who > was in the Robert Altman film, Nashville. FWIW: Joni's first appearance during The ROLLING THUNDER Revue was the evening show on Nov. 13, 1975 with yours truly in the audience. This would have been the 2nd of the -7- shows I attended. The HISSING OF SUMMER LAWNS was released earlier that month. Joni performed "Dont Interrupt The Sorrow" as well as "Edith And The Kingpin" from the New album. Here's the list of songs Joni performed according to known recordings. 1. Edith And The Kingpin 2. Dont Interrupt The Sorrow 3. Coyote * 4. Woman Of Heart And Mind 5. Shadows And Light * Brand New and first performed on Nov. 26, 1975 As for Ronee Blakley ... I'm sure you realize she was also on The ROLLING THUNDER Revue. And ... She wrote and recorded a song about Joni. "She Lays It On The Line" andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/inspiredbyjoni_albums.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/inspiredbyjoni_songs.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/miscrecordings.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/songsaboutjoni.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:18:35 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Your notches, liberation doll Mike asked: >How come you got all this transcribed but didn't ask about the spelling? Because the interview was 12 years ago and I just transcribed it yesterday. Joni wouldn't take my calls to verify the spelling... If I would have tried to call her, that is. if I knew her phone number, that is. Anyone know her phone number so I can verify? Send it my way. Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 14:36:04 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: You're Notches RE: You're Notches Les writes > The lyrics on the album jacket say "your" and the recent book > of lyrics says "you're". Let's assume Joni approved both the album > copy when it came out and the recent book of lyrics. When would > her 'editorial prowess' have been the sharpest for this song in > particular? When she had just written/recorded it and was preparing > for the album release? Or some 30/40 odd years later when she was > reviewing all at once all 220+ songs she had written in the past 4 decades? well, the first problem here is the assumption that Joni proof-read and/or approved ANYthing in the first place. if so, how do you explain the Lyric and Art mistakes on CLOUDS, her second album, released in 1969. specifically, I DON'T KNOW WHERE I STAND the first two lines, as sung, are: Funny day, looking for laughter and finding it there Sunny day, braiding wild flowers and leaves in my hair and yet, the lyrics on the 1st Edition of the Album state: Funny day, looking for laughter and finding it there Sunny day, braiding BROWN flowers and leaves in my hair then there's the scotch tape clearly visable on the back of the album cover. the artwork wasn't quite finished. this tape was later air-brushed and removed in later editions of the LP cover. - ----------------- then there's the first SongBook, The MUSIC OF JONI MITCHELL this one is interesting because I DON'T KNOW WHERE I STAND is included twice, and with two different mistakes. there's a text version on the inside front cover that has: Funny day, looking for laughter and finding it there Sunny day, braiding BROWN flowers and leaves in my hair and the version w/musical notation has: Funny day, looking for laughter and finding it there Sunny day, braiding FALL flowers and leaves in my hair this SongBook was published in 1969, same year as the Album. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another SongBook, JONI MITCHELL COMPLETE contains the same mistake. Funny day, looking for laughter and finding it there Sunny day, braiding FALL flowers and leaves in my hair publication date of this SongBook is not clear, but ... it does contain songs from BLUE and none from FOR THE ROSES. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- O.K., on to "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow" the HISSING OF SUMMER LAWNS SongBook, has the lyric is as ... Don't interrupt the sorrow Darn right In flames our prophet witches Be polite A room full of glasses He says "YOU'RE notches, liberation doll" And he chains me with that serpent To that Ethiopian wall this SongBook was published in 1976, shortly after the Nov.'75 release of the Album, NOT 30-or-40 odd years later. given the editorial correction from "Your" to "You're", it's clear to me which is accurate. Joni is the only one who would have made this change. - ---------------------------------------- as for the Withdrawn SongBook, you don't really? think that Joel Bernstein got the Lyric wrong? You KNOW better than that. check out the following URL: - --------------------------------------------------------------- ALL of the above examples have been scanned and uploaded via YouSendIt. they can be downloaded at the following URL: check it out and see for yourself. - ------------------------------------- Les, y'know, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm not into the interpretation of Joni's lyrics. Understanding their meaning, on a Personal level, is an entirely different matter. and regardless of your perspective, it IS important to start with an Accurate! knowledge of the Lyric in question. Why would one do otherwise? andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/inspiredbyjoni_albums.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/inspiredbyjoni_songs.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/miscrecordings.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/songsaboutjoni.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:57:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll? Darn right! ________________________________ From: Susan Tierney McNamara To: Catherine McKay ; "joni@smoe.org" Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 11:13:58 AM Subject: RE: Your notches, liberation doll? I was behind on digests before I sent this response, so I did read Les' transcript of Joni's explanation this morning. I also remember an article somewhere in the library where she talks about where she got the title to the song, too. Something about being in a bar and a friend using that term to describe a dysfunctional relationship. It's sad how after a while "the sorrow" is the only way sick couples communicate. Live and Learn ... also forgive (but never forget!!!) :) Sue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:59:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Ha ha. The mystery remains. How like Joni, to explain and yet confuse. Shadows and light. ________________________________ From: Les Irvin To: joni@smoe.org Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 12:18:35 PM Subject: RE: Your notches, liberation doll Mike asked: >How come you got all this transcribed but didn't ask about the spelling? Because the interview was 12 years ago and I just transcribed it yesterday. Joni wouldn't take my calls to verify the spelling... If I would have tried to call her, that is. if I knew her phone number, that is. Anyone know her phone number so I can verify? Send it my way. Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:58:36 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: (no subject) Hey, Joni...you can write. You're notches a pretty face LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: You're Notches There's also the assumption that she can spell correctly or differentiate between "your" and "you're." Many otherwise intelligent, articulate people can't spel wurth shite and don't know the difference between your and you're or there, they're and their. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here. I had this very conversation with my kids last night. My son was confused over some spelling and grammar mistakes in a paper his astronomy prof had handed out. Both kids expressed concern that a university professor would make these kinds of mistakes but there are many very bright people, who are bright at what they do, but who would never win a spelling bee. And this was a science prof, after all, not an English prof. My brother the engineer has so-so spelling, but I never really did understand calculus, so there you go. ________________________________ From: "simon@icu.com" To: joni@smoe.org Cc: Les Irvin Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 2:36:04 PM Subject: You're Notches well, the first problem here is the assumption that Joni proof-read and/or approved ANYthing in the first place. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 14:38:43 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: the people who get the most out of my music ... Joni says WEEKEND EDITION (NPR) National Public Radio May 28, 1995 LIANE HANSEN: We'll have plenty of time to talk, but I'm sure people want to hear some music and you're going to do "Sunny Sunday" from the new album, TURBULENT INDIGO. JONI MITCHELL: Yeah, that's right. This is the first song in the album. LIANE HANSEN: We'll start there. ("Sunny Sunday", sung by Joni) LIANE HANSEN: "Sunny Sunday"' from Joni Mitchell's most recent album, TURBULENT INDIGO. I know there's a danger in reading too much into a song, but when I first heard that when I was driving in my car, I wondered whether this woman that dodges the light like Blanche DuBois might be that same woman who woke up on a Chelsea morning and let the sun stream in like butterscotch and sticked to all her senses. JONI MITCHELL: Well, you know, I think the danger is confusing art with the artist. The songs are really designed, and some are autobiographical and some are portraits. Even if they're sung in the first person frequently they're portraits. So, a lot is written from identification, much of this historically. The truth is it's a portrait of a roommate of a friend of mine, a fellow that I paint with. But everything I write I identify with. And then again too, in this particular art form, even a portrait you can put someone else's eyes in it. You know, it'slike Gertrude Stein, Picasso's portrait of Gertrude Stein, he put his own eyes in it. She said, "It doesn't look like me," and he said, "It will." But I think the point of the songs, I object to a certain degree that the public is more fascinated by the artist than the art form itself, and I think that the people who get the most out of my music see themselves in it. you can read the entire interview at the following URL: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "the people who get the most out of my music see themselves in it" andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/inspiredbyjoni_albums.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/inspiredbyjoni_songs.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/miscrecordings.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/music/songsaboutjoni.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:13:27 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: You're Notches Simon et al. To follow your "dog in the hunt" analogy, I'm out there with my toy poodle against your 300 bloodhounds. Your factual knowledge of Joni compared to mine - or anyone else's for that matter - is unchallengeable. But as of January of 1998, in the words of Joni herself, I can come to no other conclusion than this: the word "you're" is simply, utterly, absolutely dead wrong. Again, Joni's words: "oh! I think he's referring to the bottles in the room. Yeah, 'you've driven me to drink' basically is what it is. You know, like the notches on a gunslinger's gun? You know, like you can take credit for... everyone of these bottles has your name on it, kind of? That's what he's saying to her in the song. Your notches liberation, you know... a roomful of glasses, your notches... isn't that it? A roomful of glass... you know... your notches liberation doll." How can anyone read that and think that Joni's intent was to say, in effect, "You, female character, are notches!" Please, please, please. Someone. Prove me wrong. Show me Simon - anyone - in what context and given Joni's explanation above how the word "you're" can possibly be correct and I will admit I am wrong. I'm all ears! Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:19:22 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: You're Notches Catherine wrote: >There's also the assumption that she can spell >correctly or differentiate between "your" and "you're." I'm not making that assumption although I hope she would be able to differentiate. I'm just saying that if an English professor would read Joni's statement to me from 1998, he/she would say "Ummm... Joni, that word should be spelled 'your' then, not 'you're'..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:35:09 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: You're Notches On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Les Irvin wrote: > Simon et al. > > How can anyone read that and think that Joni's intent was to say, in > effect, > "You, female character, are notches!" > I can, and do. I don't see how it is hard to believe that he is telling her that, in effect, she is a conquest, a sexual one like all the other notches in his gun. She is nothing special, nothing liberated, just a doll, screwed to the wall. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:46:07 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: (no subject) yea and your notches have certainly set me free Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Jul 6, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Dflahm@aol.com wrote: Hey, Joni...you can write. You're notches a pretty face LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:48:36 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: You're Notches Jerry wrote: >I can, and do. I don't see how it is hard to believe that he is telling her >that, in effect, she is a conquest, a sexual one like all the other notches >in his gun. She is nothing special, nothing liberated, just a doll, screwed >to the wall. OK, I accept that interpretation and accept the fact that I may very well be wrong. But given Joni's explanation to me, and her referencing the bottles/glasses 4 times in her explanation, I will continue to spell it "your" until Joni herself comes out and says "It should be spelled 'you're' and here's why..." Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:48:34 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: You're Notches Kinky dude!! Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Jul 6, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Les Irvin wrote: > Simon et al. > > How can anyone read that and think that Joni's intent was to say, in > effect, > "You, female character, are notches!" > I can, and do. I don't see how it is hard to believe that he is telling her that, in effect, she is a conquest, a sexual one like all the other notches in his gun. She is nothing special, nothing liberated, just a doll, screwed to the wall. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:55:17 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: You're Notches So I'm on the right list??!! Jerry On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Michael Paz wrote: > Kinky dude!! > > Michael Paz > michael@thepazgroup.com > > Tour Manager > Preservation Hall Jazz Band > http://www.preservationhall.com > > > > > On Jul 6, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Gerald Notaro wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Les Irvin wrote: > > Simon et al. > > > How can anyone read that and think that Joni's intent was to say, in > > effect, > > "You, female character, are notches!" > > > > I can, and do. I don't see how it is hard to believe that he is telling her > that, in effect, she is a conquest, a sexual one like all the other notches > in his gun. She is nothing special, nothing liberated, just a doll, screwed > to the wall. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:13:26 +0000 From: c Karma Subject: re: Joni Multiple Guitars, Different tunings Simon wrote:as for the George Benson model Ibanez, there were five in 1979, six in 1983. each was set up for a certain group of tunings and a specific group of songs. eventually they were sold by Fred Walecki and Westwood Music. several were sold thru major auction houses to dealers. in 2003 two were sold on eBay. I saved the auction information and pictures. if you're interested, you can download the info at the following URL: I'm pretty sure one of these guitars is now in the possession of a JMDL member. Do tell, Simon...who has one of Joni's George Bensons? I remember seeing a Roland Jazz Chorus Amp that was purported to have been made for Joni on eBay back around the 2003 period also. CC PS I have to say that digest #200 was just a FONT of information, between Les providing the skinny on "your notches liberation doll" and everything on the guitars, mics, and home studio...do they give awards for fan based discussion lists? If they don't, digest #200 gets one from me. _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID283 26::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 16:05:57 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Joni Multiple Guitars, Different tunings It is none other than our Anita G. I have played it myself at Holycombe Jonifest. Dave On Jul 6, 2010, at 2:13 PM, c Karma wrote: > I'm pretty sure one of these guitars is now in the possession of a > JMDL > member. > > > Do tell, Simon...who has one of Joni's George Bensons? I remember > seeing a > Roland Jazz Chorus Amp that was purported to have been made for Joni > on eBay > back around the 2003 period also. > CC > PS I have to say that digest #200 was just a FONT of information, > between Les > providing the skinny on "your notches liberation doll" and > everything on the > guitars, mics, and home studio...do they give awards for fan based > discussion > lists? If they don't, digest #200 gets one from me. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:17:24 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: (no subject) GROAN..... At 02:58 PM 7/6/2010, you wrote: >Hey, Joni...you can write. You're notches a pretty face LAHM > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- dlmessling@rcn.com http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 17:07:29 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Re: Joni Multiple Guitars, Different tunings My photo of Anita G's Joni guitar is here http://tinyurl.com/2duwlfb On Jul 6, 2010, at 2:13 PM, c Karma wrote: > Simon wrote:as for the George Benson model Ibanez, there were five > in 1979, > six in 1983. > each was set up for a certain group of tunings and a specific group > of songs. > eventually they were sold by Fred Walecki and Westwood Music. > several were > sold thru major auction houses to dealers. > > in 2003 two were sold on eBay. I saved the auction information and > pictures. > if you're interested, you can download the info at the following URL: > > > > I'm pretty sure one of these guitars is now in the possession of a > JMDL > member. > > > Do tell, Simon...who has one of Joni's George Bensons? I remember > seeing a > Roland Jazz Chorus Amp that was purported to have been made for Joni > on eBay > back around the 2003 period also. > CC > PS I have to say that digest #200 was just a FONT of information, > between Les > providing the skinny on "your notches liberation doll" and > everything on the > guitars, mics, and home studio...do they give awards for fan based > discussion > lists? If they don't, digest #200 gets one from me. > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars > with > Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID283 > 26::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 18:44:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: You're Notches She probably can spell. Schools were stricter back then. They made you memorize everything. I still like "You're not just..." but if it's notches, I like "Your notches." Not that what *I* like means diddley. I still think the whole phrase is awkward, but maybe the guy really did say that and she's quoting him. ________________________________ From: Les Irvin To: joni@smoe.org Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 3:19:22 PM Subject: RE: You're Notches Catherine wrote: >There's also the assumption that she can spell >correctly or differentiate between "your" and "you're." I'm not making that assumption although I hope she would be able to differentiate. I'm just saying that if an English professor would read Joni's statement to me from 1998, he/she would say "Ummm... Joni, that word should be spelled 'your' then, not 'you're'..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:38:57 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Joni Multiple Guitars, Different tunings Nice grain on that one. Enjoy all the guitar articles, thanks Simon. You're nachos literation, Dali. RR From: "Dave Blackburn" > My photo of Anita G's Joni guitar is here http://tinyurl.com/2duwlfb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 20:16:06 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: (no subject) Gawd, I just now got this. David! From Dorothy's son? ;-) Mark in Seattle notches another Joni Mitchell fanatic - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Deb Messling" Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:17 PM To: Cc: Subject: Re: (no subject) > GROAN..... > > > At 02:58 PM 7/6/2010, you wrote: >>Hey, Joni...you can write. You're notches a pretty face LAHM >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Deb Messling -^..^- > dlmessling@rcn.com > http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 23:50:34 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll This is a great post. I enjoyed reading every word. Thank you. "Glasses" and "Bottles" are in the first verse, the next to last, and the last. It's up to the listener to "close the loop" and decipher the meaning. He's disappointed in her and he thinks that she has driven him to drink. Apparently, he's had 17 glasses of wine, still he is on his feet. :) Jim L'Hommedieu In "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow", Joni Mitchell said, - --------------------------------------------------- >>Don't interrupt the sorrow Darn right In flames our prophet witches Be polite A room full of glasses* He says "Your notches, liberation doll" And he chains me with that serpent To that Ethiopian wall Anima rising Queen of Queens Wash my guilt of Eden Wash and balance me Anima rising Uprising in me tonight She's a vengeful little goddess With an ancient crown to fight Truth goes up in vapors The steeples lean Winds of change patriarchs Snug in your bible belt dreams God goes up the chimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause I'm leaving on the 1:15 You're darn right Since I was seventeen I've had no one over me He says "Anima rising So what Petrified wood process Tall timber down to rock" Don't interrupt the sorrow Darn right He says "We walked on the moon You be polite" Don't let up the sorrow Death and birth and death and birth He says "Bring that bottle* kindly And I'll pad your purse I've got a head full of quandary And a mighty mighty thirst" Seventeen glasses* Rhine wine Milk of the Madonna Clandestine He don't let up the sorrow He lies and he cheats It takes a heart like Mary's these days When your man gets weak Les said, >In January of 1998 I had the good fortune of speaking with Joni on the phone. At the time, ironically, this same debate was raging on the list. I asked her about it (but unfortunately didn't have the presence of mind to ask for the spelling). Here's a transcript of her answer (I have spelled the word in question as 'your' each time)> Joni said, >>I think he's referring to the bottles in the room. Yeah, 'you've driven me to drink' basically is what it is. You know, like the notches on a gunslinger's gun? You know, like you can take credit for... everyone of these bottles has your name on it, kind of? That's what he's saying to her in the song. Your notches liberation, you know... a roomful of glasses, your notches... isn't that it? A roomful of glass... you know... your notches liberation doll. And he chained me with that serpent to that Ethiopian wall. That's the sin of Eve...>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 20:12:13 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: You're Notches - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gerald Notaro" >> How can anyone read that and think that Joni's intent was to say, in >> effect, >> "You, female character, are notches!" >> > > I can, and do. I don't see how it is hard to believe that he is telling > her > that, in effect, she is a conquest, a sexual one like all the other > notches > in his gun. She is nothing special, nothing liberated, just a doll, > screwed > to the wall. > > Jerry I guess I don't have to tell anyone that I'm with Les all the way on this one. If the intent was to imply that the woman is just another conquest, why would the plural 'notches' be used? Why wouldn't the line be 'you're a notch, liberation doll'? It scans the same. And why the line about a roomful of glasses that precedes it? I still say he's telling her 'those glasses are *your* notches, liberation doll. I'm not to blame for my drinking. You made me a drunk. I I have always been of this opinion. I also agree with Simon (and Joni) that the way to get the most out of Joni's lyrics is to see yourself in them. What does it say to or about you? The thing that first drew me to Joni was the feeling that she was expressing my thoughts. I didn't know why or how she was doing it, but it was an amazing thing. It's why I'm still here on this list and why I still think about her and listen to her to this day. But this time, I'm right. ;-) (Joni said so herself, dammit!) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #188 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe