From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #186 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, July 6 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 186 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Fw: Your notches, liberation doll? ["Mark" ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Joe Jones ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Rob Steen ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Catherine McKay ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Rob Steen ] prophetic witches in don't interrupt the sorrow [Mags ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #184 [Warrenkeith91354@aol.com] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Catherine McKay ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Leah Welborn ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll ["Mark" ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Rob Steen ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Catherine McKay ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Michael Paz ] Red Rocks Amphitheatre_Morrison, CO. [simon@icu.com] Re: Your notches, liberation doll ["Les Irvin" ] RE: Your notches, liberation doll [] Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Jimmy Stewart ] The Jungle Line ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Joni_Multiple Guitars, Different Tunings (Pt.1) [simon@icu.com] Joni_Guitars & Tunings (Pt.2) [simon@icu.com] Joni Mitchell's Home Studio (Pt.3) [simon@icu.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 23:08:18 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Fw: Your notches, liberation doll? > Also I can't imagine Jessica Lange putting up with a sexist alcoholic for > all of these years. > And then again, I could be wrong. Also from Wikipedia: In the early morning hours of January 3, 2009, Shepard was arrested and charged with speeding and drunken driving in Normal, Illinois; his blood alcohol content was allegedly 0.175. Shepard was taken to the McLean County Jail, in Bloomington, IL, and posted bond after processing.[7] He pleaded guilty to both charges on February 11, 2009 and was sentenced to 24 months probation, alcohol education classes, and 100 hours of community service. Mark in Seattle (posting some Wikipedia gossip) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:38:58 +0100 From: Joe Jones Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Hi, I always heard it to be "Your notch is liberation, doll". Which makes sense to me, grammatically speaking ;-) Cheers - Joe np - Astro Coast - Surfer Blood - -- - -- Joe Jones +44 7831 914094 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 04:43:09 -0400 From: Rob Steen Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll I'm with Mark on this one - I always thought it was "you're not just liberation, doll", just as I always thought Bruce sang "don't turn me on again" as opposed to "don't turn me home again" on Thunder Road. In both cases, I'm happy to stick with my illusion. Love Rob Rob Steen Mobile 07813 668726 Website: Bodacious.com - http://sites.google.com/site/bodaciouscom/B - -----Original Message----- From: onlyJMDL Digest To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Sent: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 8:00 Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #185 onlyJMDL Digest Monday, July 5 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 185==========TOPICS and authors in this Digest:-------- Re: Your notches, liberation doll [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll? ["Mark" ] Re: Your notches, liberation doll? ["Mark" ]----------------------------------------------- - -----------------------Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:48:53 +1000From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation dollFunny you should say that, Linda. I've often misheard lyrics in Joni's songs and when I first heard Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, I heard, "you're not just liberation, Doll". I actually heard it as a compliment, not as a put down as I'm rethinking it to be now.Mark in Sydney------------------------------Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 00:52:23 -0400From: Paul Ivice Subject: liberation dollFrom: Gerald Notaro ubject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll?I'll take a stab at it. Even though she considers herself a liberated woman,he is (you're) nothing but a sexual conquest, a notch in his belt, bedpost,ashboard, etc. Doll makes it even worse. It is a pejorative, sexist term aan uses with a woman to convey generic distance, superiority, treating hers an object of pleasure rather than a person.This interpretation is the closest to what I think Joni means.I think the woman in the story is being told that no matter how liberated shethinks she is, men still think of women as conquests and notches in theirbelt. Paul Ivice ;>)------------------------------Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 21:35:34 -0700From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll?- - --------------------------------------------------From: "Mark" like childhood Santa Clause,Santa Clause? Lol! After knocking out all of those words, was that some kind of Freudian slip on my part?Marke in Seattle - ------------------------------Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 22:49:44 - -0700From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll?- - --------------------------------------------------From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 9:41 PMTo: "Mark" Cc: "Catherine McKay" ; Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll?> I find that trying to figure out who Joni was writing about adds another > dimension to the mystery. She has dated so many interesting men and > written about them. I'm not just gossip-mongering here. Honest! :-)Hey, Mark! I'm not above gossip! (But I will sit on a secret where honor is at stake!)Mark in Seattle - ------------------------------End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #185*********************************-------Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.orgUnsubscribe by clicking here:mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 04:34:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll That's what I always heard too. In fact, when I read the lyrics in the LP liner, I just figured it was a bad transcription. ________________________________ From: Rob Steen To: joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 4:43:09 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll I'm with Mark on this one - I always thought it was "you're not just liberation, doll", just as I always thought Bruce sang "don't turn me on again" as opposed to "don't turn me home again" on Thunder Road. In both cases, I'm happy to stick with my illusion. Love Rob Rob Steen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 11:44:23 +0000 From: Michel BYRNE Subject: your notches. etc Thanks for the interesting posts! Nothing much to add to what's been said already, but a few thoughts: I've always read the 'walking on the moon' reference as gender-specific, rather than a reference to nationality. Joni used the image again in a much later song about masculinity and aggression, 'No Apologies'. And the Bible-belt verse must be an attack on the patriarchal mind-set of fundamentalist Christianity. 'Steeples lean' - the old beliefs collapsing, but also the blurred, drunken vision of the protagonists. I've never understood the 'Ethiopian wall' image, but love it. I wonder if this an artistic reference, an actual painted wall in the bar where this exchange is set, i.e. a real image which stuck in her mind and which she decided to include (may be for its sheer mystery). I've always loved the way the reference to Liebfraumilch (German white wine, 'Madonna's Milk') leads in the next verse to 'a heart like Mary's'. A brilliant, brilliant song! Thanks all. _________________________________________________________________ http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/ Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 07:53:12 -0400 From: Rob Steen Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Maybe it was a misprint, Catherine? Maybe we should go to the horse's mouth, as it were? As one myself, I don't buy into that guff about the writer's intention being irrelevant and us punters having the freedom to interpret/mangle as we see fit. What next? Mein Kampf as a plea for universal racial solidarity and the wonderfulness of Jews? Rob Rob Steen Mobile 07813 668726 Website: Bodacious.com - http://sites.google.com/site/bodaciouscom/B - -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay To: Rob Steen ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:34 Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll That's what I always heard too. In fact, when I read the lyrics in the LP liner, I just figured it was a bad transcription. B - ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rob Steen To: joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 4:43:09 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll I'm with Mark on this one - I always thought it was "you're not just liberation, doll", just as I always thought Bruce sang "don't turn me on again" as opposed to "don't turn me home again" on Thunder Road. In both cases, I'm happy to stick with my illusion. Love Rob Rob Steen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 05:08:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags Subject: prophetic witches in don't interrupt the sorrow I think that Joni is making reference to the witches in Willy the Shake's MacBeth... Will purposefully used lots of literary tricks like this, I think he had a great giggle doing so. Keeps us guessing.. Sounds like someone we know and love, yea. Anyway, Shakespeare used the banter of witch(es) as a way of giving the audience shades of things to come. Scarlet, conquering :P xo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 12:21:02 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll > I've always > heard the line we're discussing as: "Your notch is liberation, doll." > Linda Me too-a bit vulgar, but it makes sense, even if it's wrong. Given that the actual lyric has been verified....well, to me it still doesn't make sense without the comma. In the context of the song, the singer is having an argument with a sexist guy. He says "You're notches, liberation doll". (You are notches). In other words, you might be into women's liberation and all that, but to us (guys), you (women) are just notches on our belts, sexual conquests. It's part of a continuity of put-downs the male character is making throughout the song. The next line, "then he nails me like a serpent to that Ethiopian wall", while puzzling (why Ethiopian?), furthers the notion that she is being put down, labeled, put in a box. But then again, this is my second guess : ) RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:00:05 EDT From: Warrenkeith91354@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #184 I'm behind you Mark...and I'm sticking to it! I have always thought the same thing. Jonily yours, Warren Keith In a message dated 7/5/2010 12:44:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org writes: That's my story & I'm sticking to it! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:04:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll You mean, Hitler was being ironic? I guess not. Simon says that Joni herself said it was supposed to be, "You're notches, liberation doll," and that he got it from her, and that the Complete Joni Songbook (not sure if that's the correct name but the music book, the one that was recalled later on because of errors with the music) corrected this lyric. Having said that, I still like our interpretation! Dare I be so bold as to say that I find that phrase awkward whichever way it's meant to be? I'm not expecting Joni to be perfect and it's funny that this particular phrase has been the subject of much discussion and debate over the years and it keeps coming back to us (kind of like your natchos, liberation doll?) Joni has also said (and this is not necessarily a direct quote, because I'm relying on my full-of-holes-and-BS memory), "Never mind what it means to me. What does it mean to you?" However, I wouldn't take that literally either. Look at what Charles Manson did to "Helter Skelter." There's some in-between place, somewhere between what Joni might have meant at the time, and what it means to us listeners. And then again, there's good old time: maybe whatever she meant to begin with, she has forgotten or it has lost its relevance to her. As a rule, I'm not generally all that interested in who a song is about, but more in its universality and applicability to my particular situation or the situation of people I know. Sometimes knowing who a song is about helps the listener understand other references within it, but I don't necessarily want to know all the juicy details (although I'm not above gossip either.) So I'm sitting on the fence with no desire to come down on either side because the view is fine from here. ________________________________ From: Rob Steen To: anima_rising@yahoo.ca; joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 7:53:12 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Maybe it was a misprint, Catherine? Maybe we should go to the horse's mouth, as it were? As one myself, I don't buy into that guff about the writer's intention being irrelevant and us punters having the freedom to interpret/mangle as we see fit. What next? Mein Kampf as a plea for universal racial solidarity and the wonderfulness of Jews? Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:24:51 -0400 From: Rob Steen Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Tis a damnably awkward phrase indeed, but somehow I love the sound of it. or what I thought was the sound of it! That said, now I know what Joni [apparently] intended, it probably makes more sense - THOSL was her most vindictive anti-males-of-the-species album, was it not? It sure worked a treat on me. Rob Steen Mobile 07813 668726 Website: Bodacious.com - http://sites.google.com/site/bodaciouscom/B - -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay To: Rob Steen ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:04 Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll You mean, Hitler was being ironic?B I guess not. B Simon says that Joni herself said it was supposed to be, "You're notches, liberation doll," and that he got it from her, and that the Complete Joni Songbook (not sure if that's the correct name but the music book, the one that was recalled later on because of errors with the music) corrected this lyric. B Having said that, I still like our interpretation! B Dare I be so bold as to say that I find that phrase awkward whichever way it's meant to be? I'm not expecting Joni to be perfect and it's funny that this particular phrase has been the subject of much discussion and debate over the years and it keeps coming back to us (kind of like your natchos, liberation doll?) B Joni has also said (and this is not necessarily a direct quote, because I'm relying on my full-of-holes-and-BS memory), "Never mind what it means to me. What does it mean to you?" However, I wouldn't take that literally either. Look at what Charles Manson did to "Helter Skelter." B There's some in-between place, somewhere between what Joni might have meant at the time, and what it means to us listeners.B B And then again, there's good old time: maybe whatever she meant to begin with, she has forgotten or it has lost its relevance to her.B As a rule, I'm not generally all that interested in who a song is about, but more in its universality and applicability to my particular situation or the situation of people I know. Sometimes knowing who a song is about helps the listener understand other references within it, but I don't necessarily want to know all the juicy details (although I'm not above gossip either.)B So I'm sitting on the fence with no desire to come down on either side because the view is fine from here. - ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rob Steen To: anima_rising@yahoo.ca; joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 7:53:12 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Maybe it was a misprint, Catherine? Maybe we should go to the horse's mouth, as it were? As one myself, I don't buy into that guff about the writer's intention being irrelevant and us punters having the freedom to interpret/mangle as we see fit. What next? Mein Kampf as a plea for universal racial solidarity and the wonderfulness of Jews? Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:35:23 -0600 From: Leah Welborn Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll First, hi Joniphiles! Second, I love this kind of stuff. I could talk/read about it all day. As I was reading the the digest this morning, I was thinking all of the things that Catherine wrote. So, ditto Catherine. A couple more thoughts: about the serpent, yes, I agree that it's probably a reference to the biblical serpent who tempted Eve. But mightn't it also be a phallic symbol? Whatever this mysterious Ethiopian wall represents, the speaker is at least partially complicit in being chained to it, because she is a heterosexual woman, "chained" by her "desire" for the serpent. Also, these lyrics always remind me of Pat Benatar's "hit me with your best shot." If you're not familiar with that particular piece of my childhood, it's a song in which the female speaker taunts a womanizing man, turning the tables on him. The line in it that DITS brings to mind is "before I put another notch in my lipstick case, you better make sure you put me in my place." That was the first thing I thought of when I heard DITS, and I wonder if Pat was thinking of it, too. And Dave! your mention of the death of authorial intent made me cringe. Took me back to grad school. I don't buy the whole nasty (de)construction, and I had a habit of interjecting "Fuck Foucoult!" into the ubiquitous theoretical circuitry that is a Humanities Graduate Seminar in our post post post (is that enough posts? I forget) modern world. So, yeah. - -Leah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:48:49 -0700 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Catherine McKay" > Simon says that Joni herself > said it was supposed to be, "You're notches, > liberation doll," and that he > got it from her, and that the Complete Joni > Songbook (not sure if that's the > correct name but the music book, the one that > was recalled later on because > of errors with the music) corrected this lyric. > Then why include the line before it? 'A roomful of glasses, he says 'your/you're notches(,) liberation doll.' > Having said that, I still > like our interpretation! And then > again, there's good old > time: maybe whatever she meant to begin with, she has > forgotten or it has lost > its relevance to her. I think this is a distinct possibility. I'm still not ready to change my opinion. The roomful of glasses will always be the woman's notches in my mind. He's blaming his drinking on her 'liberation doll' mindset and behavior. Every one of those 17 glasses is a notch on *her* belt. I certainly don't doubt Simon's word. But I think Joni could quite possibly have forgotten her original intent or maybe the connotation of the line changed in her mind after the passage of so much time and experience. Still sticking to it in my usual Taurean stubborn way. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:53:58 -0400 From: Rob Steen Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll That's been my take too, Mark - might this sorrowful excuse for a man be the same one Joni drank a case of all those years earlier, gone to seed? Rob Rob Steen Mobile 07813 668726 Website: Bodacious.com - http://sites.google.com/site/bodaciouscom/B - -----Original Message----- From: Mark To: Catherine McKay ; Rob Steen ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:48 Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll - --------------------------------------------------B From: "Catherine McKay" B B > Simon says that Joni herselfB > said it was supposed to be, "You're notches,B > liberation doll," and that heB > got it from her, and that the Complete JoniB > Songbook (not sure if that's theB > correct name but the music book, the one thatB > was recalled later on becauseB > of errors with the music) corrected this lyric.B >B B Then why include the line before it? 'A roomful of glasses, he says 'your/you're notches(,) liberation doll.'B B > Having said that, I stillB > like our interpretation!B B B And thenB > again, there's good oldB > time: maybe whatever she meant to begin with, she hasB > forgotten or it has lostB > its relevance to her.B B I think this is a distinct possibility. I'm still not ready to change my opinion. The roomful of glasses will always be the woman's notches in my mind. He's blaming his drinking on her 'liberation doll' mindset and behavior. Every one of those 17 glasses is a notch on *her* belt.B B I certainly don't doubt Simon's word. But I think Joni could quite possibly have forgotten her original intent or maybe the connotation of the line changed in her mind after the passage of so much time and experience.B B Still sticking to it in my usual Taurean stubborn way.B B Mark in Seattle B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:07:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Yeah, I agree with you about the phallic symbolism of the serpent that chains her to the Ethiopian wall. The serpent also appears, as I'm sure we all know, in DJRD: The eagle and the serpent are at war in me The serpent fighting for blind desire The eagle for clarity." I like your comparison to Pat Benatar's "Hit me with your best shot." I always liked Pat Benatar's stuff and am not ashamed to say it. I used to have the "Crimes of passion" LP. I'm not even going to call it a guilty pleasure. She has a great voice and her songs were catchy and full of chutzpah. Just had a look at her wikipedia entry and am pleased to note that PB is older than me! Ha ha ha! By a few months only, but still... Also found her story interesting (and yeah, I know wikipedia ain't always accurate.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Benatar I like to analyze things but, when I find myself gazing into my own navel for too long or too frequently, I just have to stop before I feel like I'm going to go completely bonkers, and I think that may be one reason why I never went after another degree once I had my BA (Honours though, eh!) ________________________________ From: Leah Welborn To: joni@smoe.org; Catherine McKay Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 11:35:23 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll First, hi Joniphiles! Second, I love this kind of stuff. I could talk/read about it all day. As I was reading the the digest this morning, I was thinking all of the things that Catherine wrote. So, ditto Catherine. A couple more thoughts: about the serpent, yes, I agree that it's probably a reference to the biblical serpent who tempted Eve. But mightn't it also be a phallic symbol? Whatever this mysterious Ethiopian wall represents, the speaker is at least partially complicit in being chained to it, because she is a heterosexual woman, "chained" by her "desire" for the serpent. Also, these lyrics always remind me of Pat Benatar's "hit me with your best shot." If you're not familiar with that particular piece of my childhood, it's a song in which the female speaker taunts a womanizing man, turning the tables on him. The line in it that DITS brings to mind is "before I put another notch in my lipstick case, you better make sure you put me in my place." That was the first thing I thought of when I heard DITS, and I wonder if Pat was thinking of it, too. And Dave! your mention of the death of authorial intent made me cringe. Took me back to grad school. I don't buy the whole nasty (de)construction, and I had a habit of interjecting "Fuck Foucoult!" into the ubiquitous theoretical circuitry that is a Humanities Graduate Seminar in our post post post (is that enough posts? I forget) modern world. So, yeah. - -Leah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 09:21:40 -0700 (PDT) From: M C Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Hi, I've always found this to be one of Joni's more fascinating, mysterious and confusing songs, and it has prompted me to do some research, so I'm going to add my 2 plus cents. I too think of the glasses of wine as 'your notches'. If the words are actually 'you're notches', then of course that changes the whole meaning. I wish we knew for sure which is the true lyric. Also regarding the wine, this from online research: Liebfraumilch is a style of semi-sweet white German Rhine wine. The name is a German word literally meaning "Beloved ladys milk" or "Milk of our lady", hence Milk of the Madonna. Reading Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung, as Joni has, gives some interesting insight into some of the lyrics. The serpent, well, there's a whole lot there. There was a time when the serpent was considered a very positive symbol of death and rebirth, shedding it's old dead skin to emerge reborn, resurrected. The ancient female goddess with this serpent was the giver of life, with the symbol of resurrection at her side. But then the Christian patriarchs changed it all to mean evil. I am also reminded that Cleopatra killled herself with a serpent in Egypt, not so far from Ethiopia. Anima. Here's what Jungian psychology says: The anima and animus are archetypes of the unconscious mind. In the unconscious of the male, the anima is the feminine inner personality, the unconscious feminine psychological qualities that a male possesses. Equivalently, in the unconscious of the female, the animus is the expression of the masculine inner personality. So by definition, the anima should actually be part of the male psyche in the song. But Joni seems to be using it as part of her own psyche. I can't help but feel that Joni either misunderstood the term, or changed its meaning in the song. He don't let up the sorrow. Reminds me of the lyric 'man is the sire of sorrow'. I wish we could know how Joni would explain this song. I think I get the gist, but it would be great to have some of the questions cleared up. loving this discussion, mc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:23:53 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Weighing in from the left cost where I enojoed a minifest with the lovely and very talented Angela Gold. I always thought it was your notch IS liberation doll. Which means that her particular notch. Paz headed to San Fran for a few days Michael Paz michael@thepazgroup.com Tour Manager Preservation Hall Jazz Band http://www.preservationhall.com On Jul 5, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Rob Steen wrote: Tis a damnably awkward phrase indeed, but somehow I love the sound of it. or what I thought was the sound of it! That said, now I know what Joni [apparently] intended, it probably makes more sense - THOSL was her most vindictive anti-males-of-the-species album, was it not? It sure worked a treat on me. Rob Steen Mobile 07813 668726 Website: Bodacious.com - http://sites.google.com/site/bodaciouscom/B - -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay To: Rob Steen ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:04 Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll You mean, Hitler was being ironic?B I guess not. B Simon says that Joni herself said it was supposed to be, "You're notches, liberation doll," and that he got it from her, and that the Complete Joni Songbook (not sure if that's the correct name but the music book, the one that was recalled later on because of errors with the music) corrected this lyric. B Having said that, I still like our interpretation! B Dare I be so bold as to say that I find that phrase awkward whichever way it's meant to be? I'm not expecting Joni to be perfect and it's funny that this particular phrase has been the subject of much discussion and debate over the years and it keeps coming back to us (kind of like your natchos, liberation doll?) B Joni has also said (and this is not necessarily a direct quote, because I'm relying on my full-of-holes-and-BS memory), "Never mind what it means to me. What does it mean to you?" However, I wouldn't take that literally either. Look at what Charles Manson did to "Helter Skelter." B There's some in-between place, somewhere between what Joni might have meant at the time, and what it means to us listeners.B B And then again, there's good old time: maybe whatever she meant to begin with, she has forgotten or it has lost its relevance to her.B As a rule, I'm not generally all that interested in who a song is about, but more in its universality and applicability to my particular situation or the situation of people I know. Sometimes knowing who a song is about helps the listener understand other references within it, but I don't necessarily want to know all the juicy details (although I'm not above gossip either.)B So I'm sitting on the fence with no desire to come down on either side because the view is fine from here. - ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rob Steen To: anima_rising@yahoo.ca; joni@smoe.org Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 7:53:12 AM Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Maybe it was a misprint, Catherine? Maybe we should go to the horse's mouth, as it were? As one myself, I don't buy into that guff about the writer's intention being irrelevant and us punters having the freedom to interpret/mangle as we see fit. What next? Mein Kampf as a plea for universal racial solidarity and the wonderfulness of Jews? Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:13:56 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Red Rocks Amphitheatre_Morrison, CO. Mark-Leon Thorne wrote > > Subject: 1983 version of Cotton Avenue > > Hi Deb and everyone. > > This is from Joni's Red Rocks leg of her Refuge World Tour which also > took in Sydney and Tokyo (I have recordings from both). Red Rocks, > Colorado was in August of 1983. I have uploaded the whole show for > you all to download. It is over two CDs and I have designed a cover > to go with it. The links are good for seven days. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark, Joni's concert at the Red Rocks Amphitheatre in Morrison, CO. took place on July 30, 1983. The date you cite comes from the 2-CD Bootleg set that incorrectly lists August 30th as the date of this concert. A quick look at A CHRONOLOGY Of APPEARANCES will provide a complete listing of all dates that took place during Joni's 1983 WILD THINGS TOUR. This was Joni's longest, most extensive Tour. The tour opened on Feb. 28th, 1983 in Tokyo, then proceeded to Australia and New Zealand. The last of the -3- New Zealand concerts was on March 30th. After two days of rehearsals in London, the European leg of the tour began in Birmingham, England on April 14th, then proceeded on to Ireland, Scotland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Norway, and ended in Denmark on May 14th. The USA/Canadian leg began in San Diego, CA. on June 9th and ended in Morrison, CO. on July 30th. REFUGE OF THE ROADS was filmed on a SoundStage in Culver City, CA. in August. No audience was present. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Red Rocks recording in circulation is an incomplete soundboard recording. I have an audience tape that includes, and ends with the following -3- songs: 1. Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody 2. Help Me 3. Love I haven't reviewed this recording in quite some time, so it's NOT clear to me that these -3- songs represent the end of the concert. At various shows during this tour Joni performed I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE and often ended with WOODSTOCK. I don't have either of my stereo systems set-up right now, but I will send copies to the usual suspects later this summer, once time permits and the equipment is ready. A CHRONOLOGY Of APPEARANCES will be UpDated in the near future and ... eventually, I plan on including SetLists for All 'Known' concert recordings. for now - take care. andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm (the pdf.file is the TruView) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:03:04 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll I am one that falls into the "your" camp rather than the "you're" camp. Here's why... 1) The lyrics on the album jacket say "your" and the recent book of lyrics says "you're". Let's assume Joni approved both the album copy when it came out and the recent book of lyrics. When would her 'editorial prowess' have been the sharpest for this song in particular? When she had just written/recorded it and was preparing for the album release? Or some 30/40 odd years later when she was reviewing all at once all 220+ songs she had written in the past 4 decades? 2) Most importantly, we are basically questioning the 'ownership' of the notches, right? Are the notches the 'room full of glasses' or are the notches the female character? "You (singular) are notches (plural)"? I don't know of anyone that would talk like that. "You are a notch"... perhaps, but still clumsy. But if you agree that the glasses are the notches then not only is "you're" incorrect but "you're" is impossible. In January of 1998 I had the good fortune of speaking with Joni on the phone. At the time, ironically, this same debate was raging on the list. I asked her about it (but unfortunately didn't have the presence of mind to ask for the spelling). Here's a transcript of her answer (I have spelled the word in question as 'your' each time): - ---- Q: A debate is raging now about "Your notches liberation doll"... what's that line exactly? A: Oh, yeah... hmmmm... I have to go back and think of it... what's the line that precedes it? ... ummm.... He said your notches liberation doll and he chained me with that serpent to that Ethiopian wall. That is kind of cryptic, you know, but it is... it does have meaning. That's an interesting one to go in after. But even that, you know, a lot of times I'm not writing any... that's more poetic than I usually get. Well, poetic in that it is interpretable. You know, I write more like... rhyming prose. You know, I try to be clearer than poets. I think they muddy their waters a lot to appear deep as Nietzsche says. I agree with him on that, there isn't enough meat to it and a lot of it is... it just... they don't really mean anything, but words have a way of chaining themselves together and occasionally life brushes up against them and gives them meaning but, but... some of that stream of consciousness stuff you know... doesn't have a lot of clarity and... anyways this lyric... your notches liberation doll... what I intended... I had life experiences after I wrote those lyrics that clarified those lyrics so... so in other words if you go in and say what you meant on a more diaphanous thing like that you could... I mean I wrote it and then had an experience which related to it. So that means that other people listening to it who didn't write it can be having all kinds of experience that are related to it and it's kind of a shame to limit it with interpretation. You know, there's certain human truisms that creep up from time to time in the work and, you know, they may be surrounded in something more poetic like your notches liberation doll, you know, it's like the old... I forget the line that precedes it... but anyway... it's an insult hurled at the female character, you know, basically... ummm... you know... oh! I think he's referring to the bottles in the room. Yeah, 'you've driven me to drink' basically is what it is. You know, like the notches on a gunslinger's gun? You know, like you can take credit for... everyone of these bottles has your name on it, kind of? That's what he's saying to her in the song. Your notches liberation, you know... a roomful of glasses, your notches... isn't that it? A roomful of glass... you know... your notches liberation doll. And he chained me with that serpent to that Ethiopian wall. That's the sin of Eve... - ---- For me, "everyone of these bottles has your name on it" is the key. As in, "These bottles are your notches." That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. Until someone fills it full of holes. Or notches. Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:29:04 +1200 From: Subject: RE: Your notches, liberation doll Les wrote: > For me, "everyone of these bottles has your name on it" is the > key. As in, > "These bottles are your notches." > > That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. Until someone fills it full of > holes. Or notches. I think we finally have THE definitive answer - straight from the horse's mouth, as it were. Hell (who got hauled out of lurkdom by this damn thread - I think it's the most persistent over all the years I've been on this list) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 19:31:56 -0400 From: Jimmy Stewart Subject: Re: Your notches, liberation doll Amen Hell, and thanks Les for posting your conversation with Joni. Jimmy ....gesendet von meinem iPhone On Jul 5, 2010, at 6:29 PM, wrote: > Les wrote: > >> For me, "everyone of these bottles has your name on it" is the >> key. As in, >> "These bottles are your notches." >> >> That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. Until someone fills it full of >> holes. Or notches. > > I think we finally have THE definitive answer - straight from the horse's > mouth, as it were. > > Hell (who got hauled out of lurkdom by this damn thread - I think it's the > most persistent over all the years I've been on this list) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 00:07:37 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: The Jungle Line Here are the quotes: ================== He says "You're notches, liberation doll" He says "Anima rising. So what? Petrified wood process Tall timber down to rock." He says "We walked on the moon; You be polite" He says "Bring that bottle kindly And I'll pad your purse. I've got a head full of quandary And a mighty, mighty thirst" ================== In "The Jungle Line", the waitress was facing dangers from her customers. I think she's the same waitress because she's having difficulty with her customer here too. >In a low-cut blouse she brings the beer Rousseau paints a jungle flower behind her ear. Those cannibals of shuck and jive They'll eat a working girl like her alive. > Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 01:22:35 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni_Multiple Guitars, Different Tunings (Pt.1) Dave Blackburn asked > Why did you not travel with multiple guitars in different tunings > instead of retuning on stage? who knows Dave? this may be more than you asked for, but ... here's the first of three messages that should answer your question. GEARBOX by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers Acoustic Guitar Magazine Aug. 1996 Joni Mitchell has never quite gotten over the first guitar she loved and lost: a '56 Martin D-28 she got circa 1966 from a Marine captain stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. The guitar had accompanied him to Vietnam and was in his tent when it was hit with shrapnel. "There were two instruments and all this captain's stuff in there," Mitchell says. "When they cleared the wreckage, all that survived was this guitar. I don't know whether the explosion did something to the modules in the wood, but that guitar was a trooper, man." Mitchell played that D-28 on all her early albums. Before she recorded Court and Spark, it was damaged on an airline, and soon after it was stolen off a luggage carousel in Maui. Wistfully, she adds, "I've never found an acoustic that could compare with it." As Mitchell explored jazzier sounds in the late '70s, she turned to electric guitars. From 1979 until the mid-'80s, she performed with five George Benson model Ibanez guitars, which were set up by Joel Bernstein and Larry Cragg with a range of string gauges to accommodate her tunings. At that time, the Roland Jazz Chorus ampwhich was invented, Mitchell says, so she could replicate her Hejira sound in performancewas an important component of her live sound. These days, Mitchell's main acoustics are a Martin D-45, a Martin D-28, and two Collingsa D2H dreadnought and the 3/4-size Baby seen in the cover photothat she calls "the best acoustic guitars I've found since I lost my dear one." She says, "I need really good intonation, and one of the signs of really good intonation is how flashy the harmonics are with a light touch. You should be able to get them to bloom like jewels. Both those guitars have that capacity. Of the two, the big one [which was the primary guitar for Turbulent Indigo] records better, but the little one is so sweet to cradle. It's just the right size for sitting. I write a lot on it and I travel with it, which is kind of scary. I carry it on board with me, because I won't take a chance on it. I won't let it go into the hold and get mushed like my beloved." For performance, her acoustics are equipped with Highlander pickups, which she uses in combination with an external microphone. In the last year, Mitchell has almost exclusively played an electric guitar made by Fred Walecki of Westwood Music in Los Angeles, which she uses with the Roland VG-8 processor to electronically create her alternate tunings. The guitar is made with a very lightweight German spruce body and a neck that's somewhere between that of a Martin and a Stratocaster. complete text @ and The complete article MY SECRET PLACE  The GUITAR ODYSSEY OF JONI MITCHELL is located @ the guitar "made by Fred Walecki" was actually a modified Fender Stratocaster. she used it at the 1995 NEW ORLEANS JAZZ & HERITAGE FESTIVAL, which was also her first use of the Roland VG-8 guitar processor on stage. the Stratocaster was used on perhaps one or two other engagements she switched to the Parker Fly Guitar. as for the George Benson model Ibanez, there were five in 1979, six in 1983. each was set up for a certain group of tunings and a specific group of songs. eventually they were sold by Fred Walecki and Westwood Music. several were sold thru major auction houses to dealers. in 2003 two were sold on eBay. I saved the auction information and pictures. if you're interested, you can download the info at the following URL: I'm pretty sure one of these guitars is now in the possession of a JMDL member. andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 01:22:56 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni_Guitars & Tunings (Pt.2) Dave Blackburn asked > Why did you not travel with multiple guitars in different tunings > instead of retuning on stage? who knows Dave? this may be more than you want to know, but ... here's the 2nd of three messages that should answer your question. Joni Mitchell's Lament OUT CHORUS by Chip Sterm MUSICIAN Magazine January/February 1995 Lately for guitars Jonis been using a fairly recent Martin D-45, explains long-time accomplice Joel Bernstein, and a pair of Martin-style guitars by a luthier named Collings, I believe, which are based on D-28 and 00-45 styles. Joel helped her develop a system wherein she could come up with a performance set based on her roughly 40 tunings, and play them on six guitars, which Joel would adjust between songs. Each of these tunings is like Alice going through the looking glass  you enter another world, quite different than in standard tuning. And in many of these tunings, the chords Joni came up with, and the fingerings, were completely idiomatic, and she began writing in them. And pop people; because of the combination of her chords and melodies, her tunes began to sound more jazz-like, particularly on Hejira, and especially on Don Juans Reckless Daughter. She has been an innovator in this area, and very few people have delved into it at all, and for me, the one other person Ive heard do something creative with this approach is Michael Hedges. As the years went by, and her voice deepened, so did the tunings, and a lot of them that used to derive from a D, are now open C-based, and beyond. Now, Joni uses a normal medium-gauge set on her guitars, but Id probably use an .058 instead of an .056, maybe even going up to an .060, if you wanted to really ring true C. On The Magdalene Laundries from the new album, the tuning is B-F#-B-E-A-E. When you tune the low string that slack, it gets pretty floppy down there, like a dumbek [ie: Doumbek], and theres a tendency for the string to go sharp and go flat. In my own particular way, I invented the chorus, Joni adds. This is Fred Walecki's tale of the invention of the chorus machine. On Hejira I doubled the guitar and I doubled it in a way that Wayne Shorter and Miles double up on Nefertiti. Its like silkscreening  its not tight doubling. Im playing the part twice but theres some variations on it so theyre not perfectly tight  theyre shadowing each other in some places. That sound was satisfactory for me for that project, so when it came time I asked Fred, "Do you have anything that will break the signal on a guitar and double it? I need to somehow or other duplicate this sound in performance," he said, "Gee, I dont  theres nothing like that." "So, the Japanese were very earnest at that time and interested in how their products were doing and were checking in with them from time to time. Some salesman from Roland came to see me, and I asked them, do you have anything for spreading the signal and doubling the guitar part? Oh, no. So they went away and in a very short space of time they came back to Fred with the original Roland Jazz Chorus amp. complete text @ Doumbek ? a goblet shaped hand drum used mostly in music originating in countries near the Middle East. andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 01:23:24 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni Mitchell's Home Studio (Pt.3) Dave Blackburn asked > Why did you not travel with multiple guitars in different tunings > instead of retuning on stage? who knows Dave? this may be more than you want to know, but ... here's the 3rd of three messages that may answer your question. Joni Mitchell's Home Studio by Bill Flanagan MUSICIAN Magazine July 1995 We wanted to do something special for the Home Studio in our 200th issue and agreed that if we could visit any musician's house, it would be Joni Mitchell's. After posing for a couple of shots in front of her mixing board, Joni informed us that she hardly ever sets foot in her home studio, that since she and her producer husband Larry Klein split the gear is being divided up, and that if we really want to know where she creates music we should shoot her in her kitchen, with just her custom-built Collings Baby. "It's a magical little guitar," Joni says. "It's got a 14-fret neck and it's as beautifully balanced as a good violin. It has all of the sound of a dreadnought. I bought a Collings D2H and this little one, but the little one is enchanted. I had polio and the weight of an electric guitar is hard on my back. Bigger guitars put my back into a position that contributes to its deterioration." Joni is more interested in finding new sounds by manipulating tunings and sonics at the source than by fiddling with electronic effects. "Maybe at the level of recording I'll do some sonic experimenting with electric instruments," she says, "but at the compositional level I like acoustic instruments." Joni's main recording guitar has been a Martin D28, which she records using an AKG C12 mike. The mike's output is routed through a Neve 1073 preamp and Urei 1176 compressor on its way to her Trident 70 mixer. She treats vocals the same way except when she records vocals and guitar together, in which case she leaves the C12 on the guitar and sings into a Neumann U 67. Joni's outboard gear includes a slew of Yamaha effects (REV7s, REV5s, SPX90s and SPX 1 1000s) as well as a complement of compressors and limiters including a Urei LA-2A, dbx 165A and dbx 160X. She tracks to an Otari MTR-90 through Dolby SR noise reduction units, monitoring via Yamaha NS10s and Genelec speakers. Keyboards include a Sequential Prophet-5, Roland JD-800, Roland Juno 60 and Yamaha baby grand piano. complete text @ you should also check out the following article: "Joni Mitchell  Out Of The Quicksand" ROLAND Users Group (Magazine) Oct. 1996 or you can download a scanned copy of the original at the following URL: andmoreagain, - - - - - - - - - - s i m o n http://jonimitchell.com/chronology/complete.cfm ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #186 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe