From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #164 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, June 15 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 164 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: JT & Carole King and Girls Like Us ["Robert Sartorius" ] RE: JT & Carole King and Girls Like Us [Em ] RE: JT & Carole King and Girls Like Us [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] re:format of digest #176 [joe farrell ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:43:04 -0400 From: "Robert Sartorius" Subject: RE: JT & Carole King and Girls Like Us This thread about the concert series nudges me to comment a bit about one of the many reactions I have had to "Girls Like Us", which I recently read, and greatly enjoyed. (The sequel should no doubt be "Guys Like Me - the biography of JT", given his very deep connection to all three protagonists). The author answers the questions "Do you have a musical preference among the thee singers, and ....whose lyrics tend to resonate most with you?" Sheila Weller answers that she loves them all and they are all great......but that "it's hard to top Joni's poetry...on the other hand, most of her music isn't buoyant, energtic, driving-around-in-the-car music; Carol's and Carly's IS. And to me, that's important in music!" First, let me acknowledge that I think the response is fine - particularly the delimiting "to me". Moreover, I think that the author's response is more representative of the general listening public than mine would be - evidenced in part by record sales numbers. However - and I think that to her credit the author took great pains to thoroughly document and illustrate this in her book - the reaction (which I share) of musicians and critics to Joni's music is overwhelmingly opposite to the public's (and, by inference, the author's). Quite apart from the countless hours I have greatly enjoyed driving around in the car with Joni's music (in part to spare my family from my obsession and in part for the related self-preservation motive), I was first drawn to Joni's records by the music, which I found - and continue to find with almost every listening - utterly fascinating. It is not that I do not enjoy the music of Carole and to a somewhat lesser extent Carly (although I do not know their entire bodies of work). It's that Joni's music is so very special. As documented in the book, the fascination with her musical talent was shared by Graham Nash (who never really felt worthy), James Taylor (who was reportedly coldly unsupportive of Carly's music, but has always spoken highly of Joni's), John Guerin and Don Alias (two self-admitted jazz snobs whose initial reaction to the thought of playing with Joni was "what am I doing backing a folksinger"), but who quickly were turned around in amazement at her talent. (Of Guerin "But when he listened to her songs, he was awestruck. 'She was the whole orchestra in one guitar!.... You didn't go whistling Joni's tunes. They were much more complicated......They didn't have the usual hook; she would form the music to her lyrical thought and sometimes go across bars and in different time signatures - she didn't care.... But then it ALL made sense. It really did....A lot of (it) had to do with her out-and-out talent. I was amazed at her talent for most of our relationship. She didn't have patience for repetition or rules..." and Larry Klein (whose admiration for Joni's work is well documented). Of course, we know also about the reactions of Charles Mingus and other collaborators (who acted on their admiration), including Shorter, Hancock, Pastorius, Metheny, et al and of many other admiring artists including Crosby, Collins, Tom Rush, Prince, KD Lang, Ethridge, Colvin, Emmylou Harris (at a recent concert I attended, she described her introduction to Joni's music at a folk festival - perhaps Mariposa - to which she reacted with "man, what am I doing her")... the list goes on and on. That said, the music critics were even more beside themselves, since most of them were also immediately affected by the lyrical content as well, overwhelmed by the whole package, as it were. So was I, but usually secondarily and often later to the exceptional poetic level of her lyrics. I suppose one could argue that music of such a high level that it can only be appreciated by a handful of gifted musicians could be considered the ultimate art form. Such an extreme argument could be used to attack my rather elitist view of Joni's music. But I think that the fact that Joni's music did touch such a substantial audience (even if not as broad - and perhaps as common - a musical audience as Carole's and Carly's) protects her work from any such dismissiveness. Does our attraction to Joni's music make us popular music elitists? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: JT & Carole King and Girls Like Us Hell yeah! in a good way. It doesn't mean we can't enjoy the pop stuff too. It just means we have additional annexes we go to for other brain food. It occurred to me during and after the recent Carole King and JT concert I attended that the music was pure cake, if not actual bubble gum. Tasted great and I loved it and will surely go down that road again, but some more challenging listening is necessary (for nutritional reasons), too. Em - --- On Mon, 6/14/10, Robert Sartorius wrote: Does our attraction to Joni's music make us popular music elitists? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: JT & Carole King and Girls Like Us Hell yeah! in a good way. It doesn't mean we can't enjoy the pop stuff too. It just means we have additional annexes we go to for other brain food. It occurred to me during and after the recent Carole King and JT concert I attended that the music was pure cake, if not actual bubble gum. Tasted great and I loved it and will surely go down that road again, but some more challenging listening is necessary (for nutritional reasons), too. Em - --- On Mon, 6/14/10, Robert Sartorius wrote: Does our attraction to Joni's music make us popular music elitists? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:44:24 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: RE: JT & Carole King and Girls Like Us I agree with Em, I would say that it just means we have a level of appreciation that's higher than most. I was talking with my neighbor this week as we were listening to music, and commented that I can sit and listen to music like some people would sit and read a book; that is, not as background for whatever else I'm *really* engaged in, but that the music has my full attention. But that's not the only time I'll listen to music, nor would I say that the ONLY music I'll listen to is music that is of a Mitchellesque quality...if that WERE the case, my collection would be a hundredth of what it is. That being the case (and I think that's probably the same with most of us) Joni fans are not elitists in the sense that some people will ONLY listen to classical or jazz. Bob NP: Beth Orton, "Anywhere" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:52:05 +0100 From: joe farrell Subject: re:format of digest #176 something seems to have gone wrong with the format of the latest digest #176. i have received it all in ghosted lettering and all jumbled up together. is it just me or is there a problem? ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #164 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe