From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #109 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, April 21 2010 Volume 2010 : Number 109 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: A letter from Sheila Weller [T Peckham ] Re: CLOUDS [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: A letter from Sheila Weller [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: A letter from Sheila Weller [Corey Blake ] Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) [Anita G ] Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] New article: Joni and Graham [TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com] Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) [Anita G ] Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) now Joni and Prince [Catherine McKay <] Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) now Joni and Prince [Leah Welborn ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 05:03:39 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: A letter from Sheila Weller I was so busy all day and came late to all these responses. I've been trying to answer each one separately, but the way gmail "chains" everything together, and with several of the posts "quoting" others, I'm dizzy trying to figure it all out! So I hope I've addressed this to everyone quoted herein. First, a belated welcome to Leah (and all others new to the list). I'm the one who worked with Sheila and posted her letter. Not to worry--I've been on the list for about three years (I think--ha!), and still only recognize those who post most often. (And to Rian--can't believe you haven't posted for a year?!? Seems much shorter than that.) Anyway, I've had discussions on and off-list about this whole issue, so if some of you see me repeating the same arguments, feel free to skim. :-P Unlike, apparently, just about everyone here, I love most of Jackson Browne's work, and *in some respects* (not *all*), it means just as much to me as Joni's. (Carole and Carly's music influenced me a lot, too, but in a somewhat different way.) This is not to say that I think Jackson has had as profound an effect as an artist as Joni has (whether or not the world ever catches up to her), but then who, other than maybe Elvis, the Beatles, and Dylan, has? To put it in context, among the other singer-songwriters I was listening to at the time-- James Taylor, J.D. Souther (via Linda Ronstadt), Karla Bonoff, Crosby Stills & Nash, Cat Stevens, Simon & Garfunkel, Shawn Phillips, etc, etc.--only Neil Young's stuff affected me as emotionally as Jackson's. (And tho I too loved JB's looks, it was the taller, more East- Coast-intellectual-seeming JT who was my archetype for many boyfriends to come. My real-life JT-type boyfriend in college, who was a gifted artist and guitar player/singer, now has the same receding hairline.) (My vain darling . . . ) :-D I also liked that Jackson was one of the originators and guiding forces in the "No Nukes" concerts/album/film, and when he released a couple of overtly political albums in the 80s and took some flak---much of it from fans---for it, he stuck to his guns. He continues to be involved in countless benefits and other work for human rights organizations, and to write about social concerns. So all that said, when the Daryl Hannah story broke I was skeptical and inclined to give JB the benefit of the doubt. Nothing I've read over the years has given me cause to think otherwise, tho I'd be open to new information. As to Joni's allegations that he hit her at the Roxy, I've only read the account in *Girls Like Us*---I don't know if it's been reported elsewhere---and it's vague enough that I'm just not convinced of the story. I guess I've just seen too many instances in my life of people who were involved in the same event describing it differently---what's that old story about the blind men and the elephant?? More interesting to me is the stuff that happened around "Not To Blame." I was in a kind of personal media blackout at the time and missed the controversy, and when I heard the song it never occurred to me that it might be about JB and his first wife's tragic suicide. (Nor did I make that connection with the lines in "Song to Sharon" until I worked on Sheila's manuscript.) I've done only a cursory search and haven't yet found a recording or transcript of JB's radio interview from 1994, referred to in both *Girls* and Karen O'Brien's excellent Joni bio,* Shadows and Light*. (If I bug Sheila enough times, maybe I'll get her to dig it up for me out of her voluminous files. Ha!) ---So anyway, I'm kind of stubborn like Mark, only on the other side of this one! I think the bathtub analogy is brilliant, Leah, and this from a fellow traveler. ;-) Tho there are certain patterns and likenesses, one person's experience of depression is different from every other's, and there's no such thing as ever truly getting inside another person's head---"We all come and go unknown . . ." indeed. I'm just very happy and excited that people continue to discover all this music, and that a book I am extremely proud to have worked on (not to mention the rare gift of getting to converse with an author I much admire), has helped to spark some fresh discussion. Tho the focus here, of course, is on Joni, I'm also very glad to know that some are finding Carole and Carly's stories equally fascinating, as do I. I'm also happy to hear that some are reading the book straight thru rather than just the Joni sections, because I think Sheila did an incredible job of weaving together their lives *and* the larger history of the times, and one simply won't get the full flavor of it all by skipping thru. Finally (god I'm tired!), I'm *extremely* happy that Mark and (I hope) others are now more inclined to read the book, whether or not you end up enjoying it. And I'll repeat, if anyone has any questions for Sheila, I would urge you to ask her directly at either her website or her *Girls Like Us* Facebook page. She genuinely loves the music of all these women, and set out to tell their stories as factually and objectively as possible. Terra On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Leah Welborn wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Thank you so much for your thoughtful words, but I must immediately say > that > I didn't post the letter from Weller. I'm simply a satisfied reader of the > book. I'm afraid I've lost track for the moment of who, exactly posted the > letter (to the person who posted it: I'm sorry! I'm new to the list and > haven't gotten to know people yet). > > But I agree with your thoughts. I make no claim to know the truth about > what > happened. My sole knowledge of the incident comes from the Weller book, so > I'm not necessarily quoting it as gospel. I will however, continue to say > that it is a really really good read. At first I considered just reading > the > Joni parts, but damn, the story of Carly's family (the Simons) is > incredibly > interesting, and carole's story is just crazy. I ended up liking all three > "stories" equally, even though I much prefer Joni's music over that of the > other two. > > And yes, if he ain't shown up and he ain't called and he's three hours > late, > he best be dead. > > xoxox > Leah (in Los Angeles for 12 more days!) > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Mark wrote: > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: "Leah Welborn" > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:02 AM > > > > To: > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: A letter from Sheila Weller > > > > Maybe you guys know this cool little book about Court and Spark by Sean > >> Nelson? He has some cool interpretations of the songs. He proffers that > >> the > >> narrator of Car on a Hill is not "joni" per se, but another more timid, > >> fragile woman (and when one is in emotional trauma, one's self often > feels > >> fragmented)..anyway, I like the book a lot, and would love to hear what > >> other people think about it. > >> > >> xoxoxo > >> Leah > >> > > > > Hi Leah. > > For many years I never thought about the line 'He said he'd be over 3 > hours > > ago'. Now it strikes me that 3 hours is a long, long, long time (one > 'long' > > for each of the 3 hours) to wait for somebody. The word 'doormat' comes > to > > mind. Maybe I never thought of it because I had that tendency myself (to > be > > a doormat, that is) when I was younger. > > > > But I never thought of Joni as a 'doormat' type. Again, as Catherine and > > others have pointed out, I had and still have my own idea of what Joni's > > character was/is. I always thought of her as sensitive but ultimately > > strong, a survivor. She wouldn't give in to 'she'll never walk again' > when > > she had polio as a kid. She just packed up and moved out when she > decided > > to leave Chuck. She came through her 'Blue' period and emerged, > springing > > from the boulders like a mama lion (although 'Little Green' was a blow > that > > would take finding her daughter again to finally begin some healing > > process). > > > > I sort of remember hearing that she had been linked with Jackson Browne. > > Personally, I was never a fan of his to begin with (although I did like > his > > looks back in the good ol' 70s) and had never thought of him as anything > but > > a blip on Joni's radar. When the whole business with Darryl Hannah came > to > > light, the only thing that occurred to me was the line from 'Lucky Girl' > > that goes 'Cheaters, woman beaters and Huck Finn shucksters hoppin' > parking > > meters'. I kind of went hmm. I wonder who 'woman beaters' was referring > > to? > > > > Then along came 'Not to Blame' and the s**t kind of hit the fan between > > Joni & Jackson, if I remember right. He made some very unflattering > remarks > > about her to the press. She denied that the song was about anybody in > > particular. > > > > I guess I can admit the possibility of a suicide attempt and your bathtub > > analogy makes sense. But I can be very stubborn about things and until I > > hear (or read) it from Joni herself, I still don't quite buy into it. > (As > > if that is ever likely to happen.) If it did happen, the bathtub thing > is > > far more plausible to me as the cause than just Jackson Browne. > > > > Perhaps I am deluded. Or just deranged. > > > > But reading about the 'vetting' process gives me a more positive view of > > 'Girls Like Us' and its author. I have it but have yet to read it. Even > > bought it new which I almost never do because I think the price of > paperback > > books is outrageous and I buy almost all used books. The excerpts I did > > read in reviews and articles about the book were fascinating. But the > > suicide attempt business put me off and made me less eager to read it. > Now > > I will move it up my reading list. Also, I'm a long time Carly Simon and > > Carole King fan. So that is more motivation to read it. > > > > Thank you for posting the letter from Sheila Weller. > > > > Mark in Seattle > - -- Curiosity is my religion. David Ryan Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:58:46 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: CLOUDS You can't. But you can get a message to her management - not sure how current this is, Dave Blackburn or someone else may have better info: http://famous-relationships.topsynergy.com/Joni_Mitchell/Contact.asp Glad you're digging Clouds - it always transports me to another place. Bob NP: Olga Konkova, "Both Sides Now" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:02:50 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: A letter from Sheila Weller I'm right there with you, Terra - early on I would have said I was a bigger Jackson fan than a Joni fan, and if Bonnie Raitt can love them both than so can I. He has been putting out consistently solid work as long as Joni has, and that's saying something. Saw him unplugged a couple years ago and it was a warm and wonderful show. Bob NP: Olga Konkova, "In France They Kiss On Main Street" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:35:39 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: A letter from Sheila Weller I'm glad to see some support for Jackson's music. I'm a fan too. Also a huge fan of Bonnie Raitt - her first couple of albums in particular knock me out. - -Corey On Apr 20, 2010, at 5:02 AM, Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > Browne's work> > > I'm right there with you, Terra - early on I would have said I was a > bigger Jackson fan than a Joni fan, and if Bonnie Raitt can love > them both > than so can I. He has been putting out consistently solid work as > long as > Joni has, and that's saying something. Saw him unplugged a couple > years > ago and it was a warm and wonderful show. > > Bob > > NP: Olga Konkova, "In France They Kiss On Main Street" > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:11:27 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) On 18 April 2010 20:30, Leah Welborn wrote: > Anita, I love this. I had never heard Prince's wisdom on Joni! Prince loves Joni, Joni's wisdom on Prince (In a 2005 interview with Joni she was asked): Q But even when you were somewhat obscure, so many musicians were citing you as an influence or even name-checking you in songs. Of all the musicians and rappers who have cited you as an influence, whose work do you appreciate most? A: Prince. Prince attended one of my concerts in Minnesota. I remember seeing him sitting in the front row when he was very young. He must have been about 15. He was in an aisle seat and he had unusually big eyes. He watched the whole show with his collar up, looking side to side. You couldnt miss himhe was a little Prince-ling. [Laughs.] Prince used to write me fan mail with all of the Us and hearts that way that he writes. And the office took it as mail from the lunatic fringe and just tossed it! [Laughs.] Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:28:46 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) And of course he has snuck her into much of his work with Joni references on the artwork for Controversy, "Dorothy Parker" on Sign O' The Times, and "Circle D'amour" on Crystal Ball - not to mention the stunning cover of "A Case Of You" he has done. He wrote a song for her..."Jump your Rump" or something like that, but obviously she chose not to record it. Bob NP: Ryan Adams, "Walls" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:48:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: TheStaff@JoniMitchell.com Subject: New article: Joni and Graham A new article has been added to the Library at JoniMitchell.com: Title: Joni and Graham Publication: ThisRecording.com Date: 2010.4.2 Read it here: http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2233 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:13:15 +0100 From: Anita G Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) . He wrote a song for her..."Jump your Rump" or > something like that, but obviously she chose not to record it. > > Bob > I think there were several other versions Prince offered - 'Flow With Your Entrecote', Kill It With Your Filet', 'Groan Your T-Bone' and, of course, the original version, 'Shake Your Steak' Personally, I think she did wise to avoid recording 'Jump Your Rump'. Morrissey's 'Meat is Murder' had just been released. Joni probably thought it a wee bit ham fisted so released 'Wild Things Run Very Fast' instead, Yours (wihout sauce) Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:43:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) now Joni and Prince This is such a weird story that I thought you were making it up. But I did a search on Joni Mitchell + Prince and found that article. It's probably on JoniMitchell.com too: http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/music/pop/11888/ So, am I just really dense, but did Joni know he was Prince at this concert? Did she notice him in the audience and remember later? ________________________________ From: Anita G To: Leah Welborn Cc: Mags ; jonipeople ; Rian Afriadi Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 1:11:27 PM Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) On 18 April 2010 20:30, Leah Welborn wrote: > Anita, I love this. I had never heard Prince's wisdom on Joni! Prince loves Joni, Joni's wisdom on Prince (In a 2005 interview with Joni she was asked): Q But even when you were somewhat obscure, so many musicians were citing you as an influence or even name-checking you in songs. Of all the musicians and rappers who have cited you as an influence, whose work do you appreciate most? A: Prince. Prince attended one of my concerts in Minnesota. I remember seeing him sitting in the front row when he was very young. He must have been about 15. He was in an aisle seat and he had unusually big eyes. He watched the whole show with his collar up, looking side to side. You couldnt miss himhe was a little Prince-ling. [Laughs.] Prince used to write me fan mail with all of the Us and hearts that way that he writes. And the office took it as mail from the lunatic fringe and just tossed it! [Laughs.] Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:53:53 -0700 From: Leah Welborn Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) now Joni and Prince Isn't it a cool story? He couldn't have been "Prince" (although he was, as that's his real name) at the time, as he was just a 15 year old kid. But I bet a 15 yr old black kid who looks like that kind of stuck out at a Joni concert. On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > This is such a weird story that I thought you were making it up. But I did > a search on Joni Mitchell + Prince and found that article. It's probably on > JoniMitchell.com too: http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/music/pop/11888/ > > So, am I just really dense, but did Joni know he was Prince at this > concert? Did she notice him in the audience and remember later? > ------------------------------ > *From:* Anita G > *To:* Leah Welborn > *Cc:* Mags ; jonipeople ; Rian > Afriadi > *Sent:* Tue, April 20, 2010 1:11:27 PM > *Subject:* Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) > > On 18 April 2010 20:30, Leah Welborn wrote: > > Anita, I love this. I had never heard Prince's wisdom on Joni! > > Prince loves Joni, Joni's wisdom on Prince (In a 2005 interview with > Joni she was asked): > > Q But even when you were somewhat obscure, so many musicians were > citing you as an influence or even name-checking you in songs. Of all > the musicians and rappers who have cited you as an influence, whose > work do you appreciate most? > > A: Prince. Prince attended one of my concerts in Minnesota. I remember > seeing him sitting in the front row when he was very young. He must > have been about 15. He was in an aisle seat and he had unusually big > eyes. He watched the whole show with his collar up, looking side to > side. You couldnt miss himhe was a little Prince-ling. [Laughs.] > Prince used to write me fan mail with all of the Us and hearts that > way that he writes. And the office took it as mail from the lunatic > fringe and just tossed it! [Laughs.] > > Anita x ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:20:54 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) now Joni and Prince On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Leah Welborn wrote: > But I bet a 15 yr old black kid who looks like that kind of stuck out at a > Joni concert. > > Especially in Minnesota . . . :-D > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:21:59 -0700 From: Leah Welborn Subject: Re: HoSL (Look! I can abbreviate!) now Joni and Prince I started to add that... On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:20 PM, T Peckham wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Leah Welborn wrote: > >> But I bet a 15 yr old black kid who looks like that kind of stuck out at >> a Joni concert. >> >> Especially in Minnesota . . . :-D > >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:14:32 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: Re: New article: Joni and Graham Is this a typo? " 'The Gallery' . . . quoting a male celebrity's *emosogynistic* pickup line . . ." It sure has all my online dictionaries fooled if it ain't. At first I thought it might be a new kind of *super **sensitive* woman-hater. :-p On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 12:48 PM, wrote: > A new article has been added to the Library at JoniMitchell.com: > > Title: Joni and Graham > Publication: ThisRecording.com > Date: 2010.4.2 > > Read it here: http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2233 > - -- Curiosity is my religion. David Ryan Adams ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2010 #109 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe