From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #282 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, October 19 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 282 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Jam and Jerusalem (sjc) [Garret ] Re: Jam and Jerusalem (sjc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2009 #308 ["Richard G." ] Saskatoon [PassScribe@aol.com] TV Alert: Brothers and Sisters tonight -- maybe some JC? [Patti Parlette] Re: SoCal Joni Fest recordings [Mark-Leon Thorne ] In Respect of The Black Man [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: In Respect of The Black Man ["Mark Scott" ] Re: In Respect of The Black Man ["Mark Scott" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:28:18 +0100 From: Garret Subject: Re: Jam and Jerusalem (sjc) Hi Paul, I've enjoyed that show too. I think that clip was particularly good; thanks for posting it. I still find it odd to see so many faces that i recognise from other shows in that one. It's a world away from Ab Fab, French & Saunders, and Murder Most Horrid. GARRET NP - Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Paul Castle wrote: > All this talk of "The Archers" reminds me of > another quintessentially English BBC series - > TV rather than radio - called 'Jam and Jerusalem' > (which airs as 'Clatterford' in North America). > > There was a small Joni moment recently when > Kate Rusby, who does the music soundtrack, > could be heard singing a version of 'Both Sides > Now' during the final scene of the last episode > of Season 3. > > [Don't think it's been released yet, Bob - but > will keep an eye out as it sounds like a > particularly good version - the 658th, I see] > > One of my favourite shows, it's a comedy > drama series about the Women's Guild in > a small English town, written by Jennifer > Saunders, who stars in it along with Sue > Johnston, Pauline McLynn, Dawn French etc. > It often makes me cry laughing one minute > and cry emotionally the next - this scene, for > example - where Caroline, the very stiff-upper-lip > character played by Jennifer Saunders watches a > video message from her son who is a soldier in > Afghanistan - > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eaZ6NcK34s > > very best to all > PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 05:32:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Jam and Jerusalem (sjc) - ----- Original Message ---- > > > All this talk of "The Archers" reminds me of > another quintessentially English BBC series - > TV rather than radio - called 'Jam and Jerusalem' > (which airs as 'Clatterford' in North America). > > There was a small Joni moment recently when > Kate Rusby, who does the music soundtrack, > could be heard singing a version of 'Both Sides > Now' during the final scene of the last episode > of Season 3. > > [Don't think it's been released yet, Bob - but > will keep an eye out as it sounds like a > particularly good version - the 658th, I see] What a great combination - Kate Rusby and Joni Mitchell! > One of my favourite shows, it's a comedy > drama series about the Women's Guild in > a small English town, written by Jennifer > Saunders, who stars in it along with Sue > Johnston, Pauline McLynn, Dawn French etc. > It often makes me cry laughing one minute > and cry emotionally the next - this scene, for > example - where Caroline, the very stiff-upper-lip > character played by Jennifer Saunders watches a > video message from her son who is a soldier in > Afghanistan - > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eaZ6NcK34s > It shows what a great actress Jennifer Saunders really is. I've seen her in a sketch on French and Saunders (I think) where she plays a similar character - a stiff-upper-lip, upper class woman, bored out of her skull, with a drinking problem, so I guess it's not that much of a stretch to see her play this kind of role. She is very subtle. And I didn't even recognize Dawn French at first, but it was the voice that gave her away. I must check out this show to see if we get it here. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:52:45 -0700 From: "Richard G." Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2009 #308 I watched it last night too.I also thought it was really touching how she spoke of her sister Mimi, and how she still had not fully grieved her loss. The footage of Mimi was particularly touching, but I was disappointed that Joan chose not to mention (or the editor cut it from the film perhaps?), of Mimi's creation of Bread & Roses organization, her lifework and legacy. In case you all don't know about it, it still is going strong, alas, even without Mimi, http://www.breadandroses.org/ "Bread & Roses is dedicated to uplifting the human spirit by providing free, live, quality shows to people who live in institutions or are otherwise isolated from society." ~Richard in San Francisco n.p. Tracy Chapman "All That You Have Is Your Soul" Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:05:41 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: joan baez & joni Joni has made more than one comment about Joan Baez in this regard. Also about Judy Collins. I'm sure it was a competitive situation among these 3. I watched 'How Sweet the Sound' last night and enjoyed it very much. I'd almost forgotten how sweet and pure Joan's voice was in her younger years. I always knew she'd been very active in the Civil Rights movement and the Viet Nam war protests but I didn't know a lot of the specifics. If this American Masters is at all accurate, Joan was the real McCoy, the committed, non-violent activist. I didn't realize how close she was to Martin Luther King. Apparently there was a mutual respect and admiration between the two of them. And it was good to hear Dylan talk about her and speak well of her. And vice versa. And then David Harris's description of Joan getting thrown repeatedly into jail for trying to dissuade young men from being drafted right outside the induction center was very impressive I thought. Whatever else she may be, I believe Joan Baez really has done a lot toward furthering the progress of the human race. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:50:03 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Saskatoon I thought you folks would find this somewhat interesting. The New York Islanders professional hockey team owner is currently trying to gat his plans for a huge new sports complex approved in their current location in Uniondale, Long Island (two miles from my house in East Meadow). If his plans are not approved, he's threatening to move the team (I couldn't care less... I don't follow hockey.) My jaw dropped this morning while reading an article on the subject in today's Newsday (LI newspaper) on pages A4 & 5, where a list of potential new cities to host the team, if they moved, included... SASKATOON !!! Of course, with a population of just 212,000, it could be too small to support an NHL team but imagine the possibilities: Joni could sing the national anthem before a game on one of her visits back to her old home town. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:06:34 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: TV Alert: Brothers and Sisters tonight -- maybe some JC? Dear Joniamigos: I just read this in the TV section of my Sunday paper: "Brothers & Sisters: "From France With Love" Sarah distracts Kitty through treatment with tales of her romance." Sarah quoted Joni a few weeks ago. Maybe she will do it again! (Weird, how people quote Joni like that, eh?) http://jonimitchell.com/library/cr_tv.cfm?id=370 Love, Patti P., all emotions and abstractions and tears and fears over the terrible tragedy on my campus (football player stabbed to death) "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." -- John Lennon http://www.imaginepeace.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:10:48 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: SoCal Joni Fest recordings Hello everyone. I've just come out of hospital after some emergency surgery. Quite a surreal experience after having been a Nurse for 25 years. This was my first time being a patient. Weird! They say Nurses make the worst patients and it's true for me. I bitched through the whole thing. :-) Anyway, I've just been trying to catch up on my Joni-list e-mails while the holes in my body slowly close over. SoCal JoniFest seems like such a huge success. I'm so glad it was. I knew it would be though. Such an idyllic (excuse the pun) setting and two very together people who have a passion for music and friends to organise it. I have just downloaded the recordings and I am really looking forward to listening to them all. Thanks so much for this, Dave. It's not only a great souvenir for those who attended but, it allows those of us who couldn't be there to feel part of the experience too. Is there a track listing for them? Who sung what, when? I understand that you're going to put together a CD package but, I'd also like to play around with it too, just like I did with Hollycombe. Just for fun. Mark in Sydney NP Cherokee Louise - Wendy Matthews ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:16:40 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: In Respect of The Black Man The recent controversy here was the mocking sketch of the Jackson Five on the Hey, Hey, It's Saturday 25th Anniversary Reunion show on the Nine Network a few weeks ago. The idea was to recreate the show in it's original format and flavour of 25 years ago and even had many of the same guests on as back then including Harry Connick Jr. As part of the show, they brought back the segment called, Red Faces which is kind of like how The Gong Show used to be. The worst the act, the better the audience like it so they can Boo them off and Red Symonds can hit the gong. One of original acts was brought back on from the early days called, the Jackson Jive; they were a bunch of medical students dressed up as the Jacksons, including black-face make-up and did a very poor imitation. They are all doctors now and they repeated the sketch. Harry Connick Jr was not a judge on that original episode so, he didn't know what to expect but, he knew the format and style. He was visibly shocked and said that it would have been taken off the air if it was in the USA. Of course, he scored them with a zero. Harry Connick Jr was brought back on at the end of the show for a public apology by the host, Daryl Somers. Although it has died down now, it was the most talked about thing on TV and radio here and around the world for several days. In my mind, the real issue is that a guest was insulted, not that it was a racial slur. All mocking comedy which use race or culture as a subject can be insulting. This sketch was not particularly mocking the race of the Jacksons, it was only one facet of them. There was also an attempt at syncronised dancing and a crappy song. In my experience, in every stand up, sit com and sketch comedy show made in the USA I have seen has used race for a cheap laugh. The Simpsons episode, Bart vs Australia threw up every Australian stereotype and showed a lot of ignorance but it was largely taken in the spirit of the show. To put on black face is not necessarily to mock a race just like, a guy putting on a dress does not necessarily denigrate women. The Civil Rights Movement has not been a part of our cultural history. It was a foreign experience. Granted, it was of enormous historical and cultural importance but, it was foreign nonetheless. We have no great reverence to it. It got me thinking about how Joni shocked everyone when she appeared in black face on the cover of DJRD and then again in the video for The Beat of Black Wings. One might say that she is a foreigner too but that history was much closer to her home than here. She did not mean that in a demeaning way and it wasn't taken that way by African Americans. In fact, she has a great deal of admiration from respected members of that community. Then there was Lily Tomlin's character of Pervis Hawkins in the 1970s. I'd like to read the thoughts of any African Americans on this list on how they feel about this. I had a discussion recently with a friend from work, who happens to be African American. She told me she thought the worst word in the world is the word, "Nigger". I can certainly understand that given that words origins and how it has been used. She hates how kids these days use it so freely and it comes from Gansta Rap songs where black people are referring to their own community with such words. It is a very bad trend or is it just a way for a minority to take back the power of words used against them in the same way gay people call each other "Queen"? As for my friend, she also needs to realise that she is now living in a different country with a different history and culture. It can be confusing when we speak the same language and are influenced by American media. Australian kids have no reference point for the history of that culture. It is simply entertainment for them. Those guys on Red Faces are all doctors now. Nobody got to see their faces under the make up but, apparently they are all from various racial backgrounds including Indian. This is possibly the most multi- cultural country on Earth. We all walk a fine line every day to be politically correct and not to step on anyone's toes. I hope this has been a discussion point and not seemed like a rant. Mark in Sydney NP ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:48:05 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: In Respect of The Black Man - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" To: "jmdl LIST" Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 4:16 PM Subject: In Respect of The Black Man > One of original acts was brought back on from the early days called, > the Jackson Jive; they were a bunch of medical students dressed up > as the Jacksons, including black-face make-up and did a very poor > imitation. > Harry Connick Jr was not a judge on that original episode so, he > didn't know what to expect but, he knew the format and style. He was > visibly shocked and said that it would have been taken off the air > if it was in the USA. Of course, he scored them with a zero. I started writing this email and stopped. Considered deleting it without sending it. But I just read Mags' response and now feel compelled to continue with it. Fasten your seat belts. This may be a long one. (Those who are rolling their eyes, delete now.) Interesting and thought provoking subject, Mark. No answers really to the questions you raise, but a few of my thoughts: First of all, Mark, I guess there is no reason to expect people in your country to be particularly reverential about any part of American history any more than it is to expect Americans to feel that way about Australian history. Not meaning to imply that you (or anybody) are dismissive of the subject of slavery, the American Civil War, the Civil Rights movement, etc., etc. I think we Americans can be a bit arrogant at times and assume that the whole world is interested in our history & culture. Performance in black face in the USA probably goes back to the minstrel shows of the 19th century. These were entertainments that had white people in dark colored make-up singing, dancing and basically portraying African-Americans in a highly demeaning and insulting way. So the beginnings of this practice have rather deplorable connotations that persist to this day. Billie Holiday was an African-American who had rather lightly colored skin. Back in the 1930s, before she was well-known when she performed on stage with a jazz band made up of black men, she was sometimes perceived as white. This was not considered proper. When she performed with a white band she was usually required to use service entrances and when in the American South, her presence on the stage would provoke ugly reactions from the audience. Lena Horne told the story in her stage show 'The Lady & Her Music' of coming to Hollywood in the 1940s and being told by 'the moguls' at MGM that she was too light-skinned. They offered to pass her off as a 'Latin'. When she wouldn't go along with that, they had Max Factor create the make-up base called 'Light Egyptian' to make her skin look darker. Her ultimate joke about this whole stupid situation was about a movie that starred Hedy Lamarr. 'Then they put my Light Egyptian all over a little Viennese girl named Hedy Lamarr. And in my Light Egyptian, with her thick Viennese accent she played a black girl in a movie called 'White Cargo'. Also in an American movie around this time, Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland appeared in black face in the film's ultimate 'let's put on a show' finale, doing a re-creation of a minstrel show. These are examples from 60 or 70 years ago. But, in a bit of the same line, I thought of the film 'A Passage to India' which was made in 1984. This is an adaptation of an E. M. Forster novel, set in India sometime in the first quarter of the 20th century while India was still under British rule. It concerns an incident between a young British woman and an Indian man. E. M. Forster had spent quite a bit of time in India on 2 separate visits and refused to allow the novel to be filmed during his lifetime, mainly because he felt that his intention of showing that both the Indians and the British shared some of the blame for the prejudice and mis-understanding between the two cultures would never be satisfactorily portrayed in a movie. Anyway, what I wanted to point out is that Alec Guiness is in this film, playing an Indian educator. The movie was mostly filmed in India with many other Indian people in the cast, including Victor Banerjee who played the male lead. But here was the British actor Alec Guiness, in reddish-brown make-up, playing the Indian Professor Godbole. Aside from Sir Alec's appearances in many of David Lean's films, one has to wonder and I think question the reasons for his being cast in this role. I wonder what the reaction would have been if the guest judge on the program you described had been, say, Jamie Foxx. What would his reaction have been? Would he have been deeply offended? Or would he have thought that the act was funny and laughed it off? And then there's Joni as 'Art Nouveau' and Lily as Pervis Hawkins. I can't believe those portrayals were conceived as disrespectful or as racial slurs. But Mark, I don't know what an African American feels about Joni Mitchell dressing up as a black pimp. I do know that as a gay male, I have heard jokes about gay sterotypes all of my life. My reaction kind of depends on who is telling the joke. Quite frankly, when I hear them from someone like Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien it makes me wince a bit, inwardly anyway. Yes, I can take a joke. But there is always a little voice inside of me that questions the intent when it comes from somebody I don't know personally. And 'queen' doesn't bother me so much as faggot. Kind of like the gay version of the 'n-word', I guess. Of course, when it comes from somebody like Eddie Izzard, well that's a different story! ;-) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:57:00 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: In Respect of The Black Man I forgot to mention Grace Slick's appearance in brown make-up with the Jefferson Airplane on the Smothers Brothers show sometime in the late 1960s. She has said that the idea just came to her at the last minute in the dressing room when she found the make-up. I don't know that she has ever given a reason for doing it, though. With Grace, it's really hard to say. And I don't know what significance it has, if any. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #282 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe