From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #248 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 15 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 248 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Roses Blue instrument [Paul Castle ] RE: Clouds Credits [Susan McNamara ] Weighing in on Roses Blue [Russell Bowden ] To Joni Mitchell. [Russell Bowden ] Re: Roses Blue instrument [Corey Blake ] Re: Roses Blue instrument [Gertus@aol.com] Re: Clouds Credits [Corey Blake ] Re: Weighing in on Roses Blue [Corey Blake ] Re: Roses Blue mystery instrument still a mystery? [Corey Blake ] Re: Weighing in on Roses Blue ["Mark Scott" ] Re: Weighing in on Roses Blue [Corey Blake ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:14:52 +0100 From: Paul Castle Subject: Re: Roses Blue instrument I think Dave's right - it sounds like a hammered dulcimer to me - [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammered_dulcimer ] although it does sound like it's been processed in some way. Love the sound - my absolute favourite example is in Rory Block's version of "The Golden Vanity" - listen @ http://www.last.fm/music/Rory+Blcok/_/The+Golden+Vanity?autostart very best to all PaulC (who featured a hammered dulcimer - played by Mat Fox - on my TV theme song for 'Old Bear Stories' - http://sn.im/old_bear_stories ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:04:01 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Clouds Credits Hi Jill! No Ph.D. yet but here is some info: The database has transcriptions for both Roses Blue (DGDGBD, No capo) and Chelsea Morning (DADF#AD, capo 2). Maybe others have heard this concert, but I just found an eight song set from Germany 1968 on youtube which includes Roses Blue. I find these early concerts a great place to decipher how Joni is actually playing these songs. This recording is very clear. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BF9C250B30BB2543 I'm in the middle of Monday morning email hell, but if I get a chance later, I will try and search out a definitive answer to the second instrument mystery on Roses Blue. Take care, Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 00:18:47 -0700 From: "Jill Haas" Subject: Re: Clouds credits Corey, In my humble opinion, I think it's a mandolin or a balalaika on Roses Blue, due to the strumming style, but yet it still could be a giitar played on the higher frets with that same strumming style more typical of mandolin, etc. On Chelsea morning, I think it's a guitiar in a tuning in which Joni could play barr chords very high up buth then move to lower frets for the rest - I don't hear two instruments in this one. But don't listen to me. I'm in the freshman class on this list of PhD.s....! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:24:05 -0400 From: Russell Bowden Subject: Weighing in on Roses Blue Gang, NP: Roses Blue....OK...earphones on....sounds percussive to me...not plucked...I'm voting for Hammer Dulcimer. I used to think it was an old piano with thumbtacks in the hammers.. Love, Russ It's open-faced!!! _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:25:47 -0400 From: Russell Bowden Subject: To Joni Mitchell. Dear Joni, (or someone close to her who would know) What is the instrument being played on Roses Blue from Clouds? Thanks for you attetntion to this matter. Love, Russ Bowden It's open-faced!!! _________________________________________________________________ Ready for Fall shows? Use Bing to find helpful ratings and reviews on digital tv's. http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=digital+tv's&form=MSHNCB&publ=WLHMTAG&c rea=TEXT_MSHNCB_Vertical_Shopping_DigitalTVs_1x1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:53:26 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: Roses Blue instrument The hammered dulcimer seems to be emerging as the consensus. Last.fm never works for me for some reason but I'm glad to see Rory Block get a mention. I only have one album of hers, always enjoyed it (House of Hearts) and have always intended to get more. - -Corey On Sep 14, 2009, at 5:14 AM, Paul Castle wrote: > I think Dave's right - it sounds like a hammered dulcimer to me - > [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammered_dulcimer ] although > it does sound like it's been processed in some way. > > Love the sound - my absolute favourite example is in > Rory Block's version of "The Golden Vanity" - listen @ > http://www.last.fm/music/Rory+Blcok/_/The+Golden+Vanity?autostart > > very best to all > PaulC > (who featured a hammered dulcimer - > played by Mat Fox - on my TV theme > song for 'Old Bear Stories' - > http://sn.im/old_bear_stories ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:56:24 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: Roses Blue instrument In a message dated 14/09/2009 13:15:29 GMT Daylight Time, paulcastle@pdcmusic.com writes: I think Dave's right - it sounds like a hammered dulcimer to me - Yep Paul. Sounds very feasible. Thanks for the links. Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:39:46 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: Clouds Credits This is so cool! Thank you Sue and everyone else for listening to the song again and/or weighing in with your thoughts, and going the extra mile with research. I'm so glad I asked. - -Corey On Sep 14, 2009, at 7:04 AM, Susan McNamara wrote: > Hi Jill! No Ph.D. yet but here is some info: > > The database has transcriptions for both Roses Blue (DGDGBD, No > capo) and Chelsea Morning (DADF#AD, capo 2). Maybe others have > heard this concert, but I just found an eight song set from Germany > 1968 on youtube which includes Roses Blue. I find these early > concerts a great place to decipher how Joni is actually playing > these songs. This recording is very clear. > > http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BF9C250B30BB2543 > > I'm in the middle of Monday morning email hell, but if I get a > chance later, I will try and search out a definitive answer to the > second instrument mystery on Roses Blue. > > Take care, Sue > > ___________________ > /___________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 00:18:47 -0700 > From: "Jill Haas" > Subject: Re: Clouds credits > > Corey, In my humble opinion, I think it's a mandolin or a balalaika > on Roses > Blue, due to the strumming style, but yet it still could be a giitar > played > on the higher frets with that same strumming style more typical of > mandolin, > etc. > > On Chelsea morning, I think it's a guitiar in a tuning in which Joni > could > play barr chords very high up buth then move to lower frets for the > rest - I > don't hear two instruments in this one. But don't listen to me. I'm > in the > freshman class on this list of PhD.s....! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:39:41 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: Weighing in on Roses Blue Hi Russ, Thanks for listening again. It's funny you should mention an old piano. There are moments where I think of a harpsichord, but then I go back to the dulcimer or balalaika (which I had never even heard of until the recent mentions on this list - thank you!). - -Corey On Sep 14, 2009, at 7:24 AM, Russell Bowden wrote: > Gang, > > > > NP: Roses Blue....OK...earphones on....sounds percussive to me...not > plucked...I'm voting for Hammer Dulcimer. I used to think it was an > old piano > with thumbtacks in the hammers.. > > > > Love, > > Russ > > > It's open-faced!!! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:39:26 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: Roses Blue mystery instrument still a mystery? Hi Terra, Nice, thank you for the info on the books. I'm so curious to see what Joel Bernstein says! - -Corey On Sep 13, 2009, at 6:20 PM, T Peckham wrote: > Hi Corey, call me Terra. ;-) Just a couple things---yes, I > noticed the misspellings at the JMDL, which I'd love to help fix if > I could take the time away from my paying freelance proofreader gig. > (Barely staying afloat as it is tho . . . :-( ). ----And I can > save you the time w/both books--neither one, nor the excellent and > highly recommended bio Shadows and Light by Karen O'Brien mentions > anything about the instrumentation and recording of "Roses Blue." As > for the Index in Girls Like Us--check under each artists' name and > you will find albums and songs that are mentioned in the text. > Preceding the Index you'll find a complete album Discography for the > three artists. ---I also checked Lloyd Whitesell's excellent The > Music of Joni Mitchell--same story. I'm going to look up the > original Rolling Stone review of Clouds to see if that yields > anything. And then, if all else fails, I'll try emailing Joni's > archivist and General Poobah, Joel Bernstein. I know he will > know. :-D > Terra > > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Corey Blake > wrote: > Thanks so much T. Peckham! > > I keep forgetting to look at my copy of Clouds in my car but it > would be strange if both Michael Vosse and Elliot Roberts' names > were misspelled on the album liner notes. According to > JoniMitchell.com, Michael's last name is spelled Vossi and Mr. > Roberts' first name has 2 t's. Apparently neither are correct, > according to your research below and what I've researched online > regarding Joni's manager Elliot Roberts. > > Other sources worth checking: Michelle Mercer's "Will You Take Me As > I Am" and Sheila Weller's "Girls Like Us". I'm (still!) reading the > latter but don't recall anything about "Roses Blue" in that chapter. > I checked the index but for some silly reason, albums and song > titles aren't listed. > > Would love to hear what anyone else can come up with. Thank you! > > -Corey > > > On Sep 13, 2009, at 1:56 AM, T Peckham wrote: > >> I can partially answer one question. (Big whoop!) Michael Vosse-- >> note spelling--can indeed be found on the JMDL, in the Chronology >> (he interviewed Joni) and on those infamous older JMDL transcripts >> that come up in Google searches. Here's one of them: >> >> From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org >> Subject ... - 2:44am >> The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese >> at ...... later "I was placed in the custody of a really nice guy >> named Michael Vosse. ... >> www.smoe.org/lists/joni/v04.n198 >> >> I didn't take the time to read thru it to find this, but I'm sure >> Les can shed some light. ;-) (damned gmail---can't lost the >> italics) >> >> Here's a bit from another source that came up, advertising the 2003 >> DVD release of Woman of Heart and Mind: >> >> "The film required exhaustive research through decades-old archives >> and personal collections, including home movies shot by Graham Nash >> -- film Nash himself hadn't seen in 30 years, of Laurel Canyon in >> the late 1960s, of Nash, David Crosby, Stephen Stills, Neil Young, >> and Mitchell hanging out at home. Friend Michael Vosse's home >> movies from the 1968 Big Sur Folk Festival show Mitchell with Judy >> Collins and Mama Cass." >> >> From what I can glean, Vosse started out as a fan-mag reporter and >> is referred to by Barney Hoskyns in his book Hotel California as a >> "house hippie" who helped pitch the Gram Parsons-version of the >> Burritos to A&M records, and who was hired in some capacity by (or >> for) Brian Wilson during the recording of Smile. I didn't find any >> reference to him as a musician. >> >> I listened to "Roses Blue" and agree that it sounds like a >> balalaika or somesuch---it reminds me of the film Dr. Zhivago. --- >> Is it possible that this might be an extremely early example of >> Joni manipulating sounds in the studio? Like playing a part on >> guitar and then speeding up the tape? ----If no one has an answer >> by tomorrow, I'll volunteer to enter the Joel Bernstein lion's den >> via email. :-D >> Terra, who loves research as much as sleep >> >> NP on the headphones: Song to a Seagull >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:48 AM, Corey Blake >> wrote: >> Thank you so much for keeping this alive David! >> >> I don't know if this is any help, but I notice on the credits/liner >> notes for the album, it says "Special thanks to Michael Vossi and >> Elliott Roberts". >> >> Elliot Roberts was Joni's manager at the time. But what about >> Michael Vossi. Do we know who he is? Maybe he played the mystery >> instrument on "Roses Blue"? >> >> To complicate things, both AllMusic.com and Wikipedia have the >> musician credits for Clouds as the following: >> >> Joni Mitchell: guitar, keyboards, vocals, cover art >> Stephen Stills: bass, guitar >> >> It seems to me, though, that this is just duplicating the musician >> credits from Songs To A Seagull, since I don't hear any keyboards >> or bass on the album. >> >> I agree it seems strange that there isn't something that talks >> about the production of Clouds. I checked the Joni Mitchel Library >> search engine for "Roses Blue" on JoniMitchell.com but nothing >> seemed to come up. >> >> -Corey >> >> >> >> On Sep 12, 2009, at 8:09 PM, David Eoll wrote: >> >> Y'know I'm a bit disappointed in us. I don't feel like we got to >> the bottom of Corey's question about Roses Blue. And now its kind >> of eating at me. >> >> I still think we were on the right track with it being a stringed >> instrument of some sort. I really don't think its a guitar. I >> capoed my Martin up as high as I could and I just am not hearing >> the same tone as what is on the song. I suppose it could be a >> mandolin but I think the instrument in the song has a distinctly >> Eastern flavor, or at the very least European. I listened to >> several youtube vids of bouzouki and balalaika players, and my >> money would be on balalaika if I had to place a bet right now. >> But, who knows for sure? Are there other similar instruments I >> should check out? >> >> Are there any books or interviews anyone knows of where Joni talks >> about the recording of Clouds? The rest of the album is so >> straight up guitar and vocals (as Corey points out) that one would >> think that this oddball arrangement for Roses Blue would get some >> mention somewhere. >> >> Peace, >> David >> >> >> >> > > > > > -- > Some things in life it just gets too late to learn . . . --Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:24:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: RE: JoniFest 2009 Performances I'm so jealous of all you going to Jonifest! Ah well, have fun.... - --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Kate Bennett wrote: Can play guitar & sing harmony on this if you like (love the song!) Hard Times Come Again No More (D) Stephen Foster __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (10) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity Visit Your Group Give Back Yahoo! for Good Get inspired by a good cause. Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . __,_._,___ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:30:49 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: Weighing in on Roses Blue > Hi Russ, > > Thanks for listening again. It's funny you should mention an old > piano. There are moments where I think of a harpsichord, but then I > go back to the dulcimer or balalaika (which I had never even heard > of until the recent mentions on this list - thank you!). > > -Corey I'm glad you asked the question, too, Corey because I've always wondered about this myself. But...but...but.....YOU'VE NEVER SEEN DOCTOR ZHIVAGO???? My GOD I feel old sometimes! The movie is over 40 years old, after all. (big sigh) Seriously though, this is one of my all time favorite movies that started a lifelong fascination with Russia, especially the Russian Revolution. (There was also 'Anastasia' with Ingrid Bergman but that was on TV and I remember 'Doctor Zhivago' from seeing it on a BIG screen.) The score makes beautiful use of the balalaika even though 'Lara's Theme' has been trivialized to the point of being trite. If you like long, beautifully filmed (Freddie Young, cinematographer, and David Lean, director, the team that made 'Lawrence of Arabia'), romantic, sweeping epics, rent this sometime in a LETTERBOX FORMAT. DON'T get a pan and scan version, please! It's been said that David Lean could see his movies in his head before filming them (I believe Katharine Hepburn said something like this) and his widescreen movies need to be seen as widescreen movies. His amazing visions deserve that. The young Omar Sharif, trudging across an enormous, seemingly endless field of snow with the freezing, whistling wind and flying snow blowing against him. Oh my. I could buy the instrument in 'Roses Blue' being a balalaika. It has that kind of metallic, rapidly picked sound. I haven't heard a hammered dulcimer being played in a long time. There used to be a busker in Seattle's Pike Place Market that would play one, though, and I don't remember it sounding like what is played in 'Roses Blue'. I would think you would have to be hammering very fast on those strings to make that sound. The player literally hits the strings with 2 little 'hammers'. The sound I remember was much more delicate and not so metallic. But then I haven't listened to 'Roses Blue' in a long time. It's never been a favorite of mine. But I have always been curious about the seemingly uncredited instrument playing at the end. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:35:56 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: Weighing in on Roses Blue Mark I've definitely seen Dr. Zhivago a few times, although it's been several years. I love it! Peter Sellers goes back to the very beginning for me, acting wise. My very first role was Chief Inspector Clouseau for our high school production of The Pink Panther Strikes Again, if you can believe it. Thank you for bringing this movie up. I need to own a copy on DVD. And of course letterbox. Pan & scan is for chumps. ;) To re-phrase what I meant about the balalaika: I have definitely heard the instrument before, I just never knew its name. - -Corey On Sep 14, 2009, at 6:30 PM, Mark Scott wrote: > >> Hi Russ, >> >> Thanks for listening again. It's funny you should mention an old >> piano. There are moments where I think of a harpsichord, but then I >> go back to the dulcimer or balalaika (which I had never even heard >> of until the recent mentions on this list - thank you!). >> >> -Corey > > I'm glad you asked the question, too, Corey because I've always > wondered about this myself. > > But...but...but.....YOU'VE NEVER SEEN DOCTOR ZHIVAGO???? > > My GOD I feel old sometimes! > > The movie is over 40 years old, after all. (big sigh) > > Seriously though, this is one of my all time favorite movies that > started a lifelong fascination with Russia, especially the Russian > Revolution. (There was also 'Anastasia' with Ingrid Bergman but > that was on TV and I remember 'Doctor Zhivago' from seeing it on a > BIG screen.) The score makes beautiful use of the balalaika even > though 'Lara's Theme' has been trivialized to the point of being > trite. If you like long, beautifully filmed (Freddie Young, > cinematographer, and David Lean, director, the team that made > 'Lawrence of Arabia'), romantic, sweeping epics, rent this sometime > in a LETTERBOX FORMAT. DON'T get a pan and scan version, please! > It's been said that David Lean could see his movies in his head > before filming them (I believe Katharine Hepburn said something like > this) and his widescreen movies need to be seen as widescreen > movies. His amazing visions deserve that. > > The young Omar Sharif, trudging across an enormous, seemingly > endless field of snow with the freezing, whistling wind and flying > snow blowing against him. Oh my. > > I could buy the instrument in 'Roses Blue' being a balalaika. It > has that kind of metallic, rapidly picked sound. I haven't heard a > hammered dulcimer being played in a long time. There used to be a > busker in Seattle's Pike Place Market that would play one, though, > and I don't remember it sounding like what is played in 'Roses > Blue'. I would think you would have to be hammering very fast on > those strings to make that sound. The player literally hits the > strings with 2 little 'hammers'. The sound I remember was much more > delicate and not so metallic. > > But then I haven't listened to 'Roses Blue' in a long time. It's > never been a favorite of mine. But I have always been curious about > the seemingly uncredited instrument playing at the end. > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #248 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe