From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #211 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, August 8 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 211 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Stevie Nicks, talking about C&S [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM [Corey Blake ] MOA "Woodstock" on XM Radio yesterday [Lori Fye ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM [Kate Johnson ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM [Corey Blake ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM ["Mark Scott" ] Re: article on Mercer book and JM ["Mark Scott" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 17:11:51 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Stevie Nicks, talking about C&S Thanks, Cindy, for posting this. Interesting perspective. It makes sense that Joni would have something to teach Stevie. I'd kill to hear Stevie Nicks sing, Same Situation. Mark in blustery Sydney NP Same Situation - Christine Collister ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 06:17:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Joni Covers #115, still ripe for the plucking Happy Friday Hippies! Thanks to all who have downloaded this month's covers. Thought I'd repost just in case some of you missed it: http://tinyurl.com/m7nuwr (unlike Lazy Patti, MY links ALWAYS work...) The link is good until the 14th, so go for it if interested. Like Bluto said in Animal House..."don't cost nuthin'" Bob NP: India Arie, "Good Man" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 06:58:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: RE: Stevie Nicks, talking about C&S Cindy posted: The Record that Changed My Life Thoughts on Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark By Stevie Nicks | June 28, 2009 10:00 a.m Joni Mitchells Court and Spark. I was over at [Fleetwood Mac producer Keith Olsons] house, and he had these great speakers that were as tall as me, and Jonis record had just come out, and I put it on. He went away, it was just me, and I listened to this record for three days. She was able to stuff so many words into one sentence and not have them sound crowded. She was talking about what it was like to be very famous and to be a woman living in a mans world. She had been in the world of fame much longer than me, and she had gone out with every famous rock n roll star that there was. And she was such an amazing guitarist that they all respected her. That was unheard of. She was in the boys club. She talked about what I saw coming. Even though Buckingham Nicks had tanked, I knew that we were going to be very famous, very rich, and that this fame thing was going to overwhelm us. So when I listened to this record, it was like a great old premonition just being laid out in front of me. There is a song on it called The Same Situation, and that song just would kill me when Id hear it. Because I knew it was coming. Hi Cindy! Thanks for posting this. Very interesting read. I love Stevie Nicks, and it's cool to know Joni moved her through CS. Love,Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:40:31 -0600 From: Robert Procyk Subject: article on Mercer book and JM Ok, I finally read the Mercer book last weekend, and I have to say that I just didn't like it. When it was just the Joni quotations, yes, it was informative, but the rest? Well, to me (and this is just my opinion, so don't get all ruffled), it just droned on and on like a grad student seminar presentation. Maybe because I spent way too much time as a grad student, and I was having flashbacks, but that's what it was to me. And perhaps I was skimming a little too much, because on one hand, she seemed to be saying "oh, those who want to know what each song was written about are ruining the whole experience", so I was thrown when she later on stated how hearing what C&S was about made the song a richer experience. And then there were the Carly and Dan Fogelberg digs. Yes, neither of them are Joni, but come on, to attack Carly by saying she doesn't own up to her own part in this broken relationship in "You're So Vain" made me laugh out loud. Seriously, do we need that in every song? Does Joni do that in every song? Mercer didn't back up this argument with any other examples from Carly. It was just such an odd, random attack. What kind introspection is in "Underneath the Streetlights"? Has Mercer never dated a dickhead like Carly apparently did? If she was going to attack Simon so flippantly, then back up this notion of the "Faultless Carly" with more evidence. It irked me beyond belief. And then there was poor Danny boy. Again, he was no Joni. And again, that's allright. I don't want Joni-depth, all the time. But what really annoyed me was that this whole thing about having to get away from the boyfriend's Daddy when he played Fogelberg, and how disappointed she was that someone she respected listened to Fogelberg. COME ON. I mean, REALLY. SERIOUSLY. And then to go off on "Leader of the Band?" Again, it's no Joni, but it's a nice little tribute to his father, and so what? I don't think Dan was ever put in the same league as Joni, so I was puzzled. I was waiting for her to say "Happy Birthday" was too banal, so she stormed out of her last birthday party. I really wanted to like it. I really did. But, my advice for the undecided is to go with Girls Like Us. And I know many of you loved this book, and I'm happy for all y'all. But as for me, it's back to the trailer with my Wonder Bread and Dan Fogelberg records and my ignorance, I guess... Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:04:36 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM Thanks Rob. Pretty amusing review (in a good way). The Carly critique sounds kind of bothersome. Carly is actually quite revealing of her own flaws in her own songs. Just listen to "I Forget" from The Bedroom Tapes. Yikes. Pretty honest and vulnerable look at herself while she was sick from battling breast cancer. If that's too obscure, just listen to the opening track of No Secrets (the album with "You're So Vain"). In "The Carter Family", she sings about faking her tears when a childhood friend moved away but not crying when her own grandmother died. Unfortunately I don't know enough about Dan Fogelberg's music yet to defend him but I kind of doubt her argument holds up. Basing a critique on an artist's skills as a songwriter on one single song is pretty weak. - -Corey On Aug 7, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Robert Procyk wrote: > Ok, I finally read the Mercer book last weekend, and I have to say > that I > just didn't like it. When it was just the Joni quotations, yes, it > was > informative, but the rest? Well, to me (and this is just my > opinion, so > don't get all ruffled), it just droned on and on like a grad student > seminar presentation. Maybe because I spent way too much time as a > grad > student, and I was having flashbacks, but that's what it was to me. > And > perhaps I was skimming a little too much, because on one hand, she > seemed > to be saying "oh, those who want to know what each song was written > about > are ruining the whole experience", so I was thrown when she later on > stated how hearing what C&S was about made the song a richer > experience. > > And then there were the Carly and Dan Fogelberg digs. Yes, neither of > them are Joni, but come on, to attack Carly by saying she doesn't > own up > to her own part in this broken relationship in "You're So Vain" made > me > laugh out loud. Seriously, do we need that in every song? Does > Joni do > that in every song? Mercer didn't back up this argument with any > other > examples from Carly. It was just such an odd, random attack. What > kind > introspection is in "Underneath the Streetlights"? Has Mercer never > dated a dickhead like Carly apparently did? If she was going to > attack > Simon so flippantly, then back up this notion of the "Faultless Carly" > with more evidence. It irked me beyond belief. > > And then there was poor Danny boy. Again, he was no Joni. And again, > that's allright. I don't want Joni-depth, all the time. But what > really > annoyed me was that this whole thing about having to get away from the > boyfriend's Daddy when he played Fogelberg, and how disappointed she > was > that someone she respected listened to Fogelberg. COME ON. I mean, > REALLY. SERIOUSLY. And then to go off on "Leader of the Band?" > Again, > it's no Joni, but it's a nice little tribute to his father, and so > what? I don't think Dan was ever put in the same league as Joni, so > I was > puzzled. I was waiting for her to say "Happy Birthday" was too > banal, so > she stormed out of her last birthday party. > > I really wanted to like it. I really did. But, my advice for the > undecided is to go with Girls Like Us. And I know many of you loved > this > book, and I'm happy for all y'all. But as for me, it's back to the > trailer with my Wonder Bread and Dan Fogelberg records and my > ignorance, > I guess... > > Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:58:32 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: MOA "Woodstock" on XM Radio yesterday Happened to be browsing XM stations in the car and stumbled upon "Deep Tracks" (XM 40), and the MOA version of "Woodstock" was playing -- and it played all the way through to Joni's "intermission" comments. What a nice surprise! I'd forgotten, really, how much I prefer that version of the song over any other. Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:39:15 -0600 From: Kate Johnson Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM On 7-Aug-09, at 9:40 AM, Robert Procyk wrote: But as for me, it's back to the trailer with my Wonder Bread and Dan Fogelberg records and my ignorance, I guess... Rob Hi Rob, Well thanks for your opinion, which is as important as anyone else's! I haven't yet seen Mercer's book, but did recently read Girls Like Us. I skimmed over the Carly and Carole sections, and found the Joni section more gossipy and name-droppingish than I was hoping for, so while it was interesting enough I didn't take it too seriously, thought it was pretty lightweight and not a particularly intelligent commentary on the times, though admittedly I was still a child and/or teenager in the sixties and seventies. Um, I don't care for Wonderbread but did once sing a Dan Fogelberg song at a wedding. Can I join you in your trailer? Kate ps was hanging out with Joni in a dream, again, last night. we discussed how she can be such a humble sweetheart at times, and at others a bit of a bigheaded diva, finally agreeing she is only human and likely has the same amounts of these characteristics as most geniuses who refuse to sell themselves short via false modesty or low self-esteem. ~http://goldengrainfarm.blogspot.com Life at Golden Grain Farm~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 13:22:08 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) Yeah, Richard. I wanted to reply to this thread but decided not to. Thanks for expressing my opinion to a tee even though I couldn't verbalize it! I really enjoyed Mercer's critical discussions of these artists. I also really enjoyed her interview with Loudon Wainwright III, another of my favorites. Sue ___________________ /___________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 16:43:32 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) I think Mercer's analysis of the talents of Dan Fogelberg and Carly Simon is judicious and well supported. She argues that they represent a diminution of personal songwriting compared to masters like Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan, that they settle for "simple arguments and easy solutions" which great writers, like Mitchell, "pick apart." Mercer distinguishes between writing that explores feelings with an awareness of their complexity and writing that might as well be written to Dear Diary. Her aesthetic judgments are supported by analyses of songs (e.g. "Leader of the Band," "You're So Vain"). It is the job of the critic to make such aesthetic judgments. It is the job of the informed reader to weigh those judgments against their own experience of the works of art. I don't see anything gratuitous or ad hominem about MM's criticism of wither artist. (Also, "Monro" is the article writer's spelling mistake) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 11:19:23 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) I need to read the book, but how is using one single song from an artist's catalogue is in any way supporting an aesthetic judgment? That's like saying Joni Mitchell's entire songwriting abilities begin and end with "Big Yello Taxi". I was able to debunk the judgment on Carly with 3 songs off the top of my head. And I thought of Don Fogelberg's "Same Old Lang Syne" in the interim. I hardly think that song presents a "simple argument or easy solution". In fact, there is no easy solution in that song. The two characters have a terribly awkward and pathetic reunion and then part ways probably to return to their somewhat sad lives to probably never see each other again. In the end, I just don't understand the need to tear down other artists to elevate one artist. Joni Mitchell is immensely talented and hugely influential. How does Carly Simon and Don Fogelberg writing songs with an awareness of complexity in any way take that away from Joni and her legacy? They're artists, they're not sports teams. - -Corey On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Susan McNamara wrote: > Yeah, Richard. I wanted to reply to this thread but decided not to. > Thanks for expressing my opinion to a tee even though I couldn't verbalize > it! I really enjoyed Mercer's critical discussions of these artists. I > also really enjoyed her interview with Loudon Wainwright III, another of my > favorites. > > Sue > > > ___________________ > /___________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > "It's all a dream she has awake." - Joni Mitchell > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 16:43:32 -0400 > From: "Richard Flynn" > Subject: RE: article on Mercer book and JM (and L.Cohen) > > I think Mercer's analysis of the talents of Dan Fogelberg and Carly Simon > is > judicious and well supported. She argues that they represent a diminution > of personal songwriting compared to masters like Joni Mitchell and Bob > Dylan, that they settle for "simple arguments and easy solutions" which > great writers, like Mitchell, "pick apart." Mercer distinguishes between > writing that explores feelings with an awareness of their complexity and > writing that might as well be written to Dear Diary. > > Her aesthetic judgments are supported by analyses of songs (e.g. "Leader of > the Band," "You're So Vain"). It is the job of the critic to make such > aesthetic judgments. It is the job of the informed reader to weigh those > judgments against their own experience of the works of art. > > I don't see anything gratuitous or ad hominem about MM's criticism of > wither > artist. > > (Also, "Monro" is the article writer's spelling mistake) > - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me Do you Dig Comics? http://www.digcomics.com Mailing List - http://coreyblake.googlepages.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 13:38:14 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: article on Mercer book and JM Anyone who reads the credits to Michelle's book may notice my name there. Michelle and I became friends as she wrote this book, I provided a few research materials, and even read and critiqued the book in advance of its publication. So I may very well be a compromised commentator on the book. Still, I'd like to throw in a couple words about Michelle's argument here. I think her appraisal of Carly and Dan is part of an analysis of personal songwriting in a specific span of time. She doesn't attack their entire songbooks, but rather cites their work from a particular period to show how radically the genre of "autobiographical songwriting" changed in just a decade. I read it as Michelle providing some context for just why and how Joni moved beyond personal songwriting herself, a transition that Michelle addresses right after her "dilution of personal songwriting" argument. Just my two cents... Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 12:57:19 -0700 From: Corey Blake Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM Hi Les, Thank you for stepping in. That context helps some. While I would still disagree, I think it's a fair argument to make. One thing is clear. This changes nothing. I'm still getting the book. - -Corey On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Les Irvin wrote: > Anyone who reads the credits to Michelle's book may notice my name there. > Michelle and I became friends as she wrote this book, I provided a few > research materials, and even read and critiqued the book in advance of its > publication. > > So I may very well be a compromised commentator on the book. Still, I'd > like to throw in a couple words about Michelle's argument here. > > I think her appraisal of Carly and Dan is part of an analysis of personal > songwriting in a specific span of time. She doesn't attack their entire > songbooks, but rather cites their work from a particular period to show how > radically the genre of "autobiographical songwriting" changed in just a > decade. I read it as Michelle providing some context for just why and how > Joni moved beyond personal songwriting herself, a transition that Michelle > addresses right after her "dilution of personal songwriting" argument. > > Just my two cents... > Les > - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me Do you Dig Comics? http://www.digcomics.com Mailing List - http://coreyblake.googlepages.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:02:40 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Procyk" > And then there were the Carly and Dan Fogelberg digs. Yes, neither > of > them are Joni, but come on, to attack Carly by saying she doesn't > own up > to her own part in this broken relationship in "You're So Vain" made > me > laugh out loud. Seriously, do we need that in every song? Does > Joni do > that in every song? Mercer didn't back up this argument with any > other > examples from Carly. It was just such an odd, random attack. What > kind > introspection is in "Underneath the Streetlights"? Has Mercer never > dated a dickhead like Carly apparently did? If she was going to > attack > Simon so flippantly, then back up this notion of the "Faultless > Carly" > with more evidence. It irked me beyond belief. > > And then there was poor Danny boy. Again, he was no Joni. And > again, > that's allright. I don't want Joni-depth, all the time. But what > really > annoyed me was that this whole thing about having to get away from > the > boyfriend's Daddy when he played Fogelberg, and how disappointed she > was > that someone she respected listened to Fogelberg. COME ON. I mean, > REALLY. SERIOUSLY. And then to go off on "Leader of the Band?" > Again, > it's no Joni, but it's a nice little tribute to his father, and so > what? I don't think Dan was ever put in the same league as Joni, so > I was > puzzled. I was waiting for her to say "Happy Birthday" was too > banal, so > she stormed out of her last birthday party. > snip > I really wanted to like it. I really did. But, my advice for the > undecided is to go with Girls Like Us. And I know many of you loved > this > book, and I'm happy for all y'all. But as for me, it's back to the > trailer with my Wonder Bread and Dan Fogelberg records and my > ignorance, > I guess... > > Rob LOL! Thank you for this, Rob. I haven't read Mercer's book so didn't feel qualified to say much about it. Although I personally think Joni is peerless, I don't want that kind of depth all the time either. That being said, many of Carly's songs are hardly what I would call shallow fluff. Mark in Seattle Joni Devotee *and* Carly Simon Champion ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:06:43 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: article on Mercer book and JM - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Johnson" .....finally agreeing she is only human > and likely has the same amounts of these characteristics as most > geniuses who refuse to sell themselves short via false modesty or > low > self-esteem. Oo! I like that! Thanks, Kate! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #211 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe